Would you vote Sinn Fein for the election?

Riamfada

deise go deo wrote: »

21%, 13.5 commercial

Congradulations, you are now more educated in Irish economic policy than the leader of Sinn Fein.


..... now I can relax. Also true to my word I shall apologise for using the word in question of which the word I used was the word which caused so much offence to the topic in question.

*cough* Riamfada regrets any offense caused by any minority groups during public address.

deise go deo

Riamfada wrote: »

Congradulations, you are now more educated in Irish economic policy than the leader of Sinn Fein.

Ya, but he has a beard.

Swings and roundabouts really.

Jesus Juice

I always wonder what would happen to Ireland if they did get into power

MagicMarker

Jesus Juice wrote: »

I always wonder what would happen to Ireland if they did get into power

Ever see Mad Max?

AckwelFoley

MagicMarker wrote: »

Ever see Mad Max?

1, 2 or 3?

I kinda liked the epic fort in 2.

lcrcboy

I dont know who to vote for really... They all seem as ****ed up and greedy as each other. Im tempted to vote for sinn fein but I just dont like the sound of there national policies and gerry adams seems like a muppet half the time he is being interviewed. For obvious reasons I wont vote for FF, and I think FG are to old and conservative plus I think we would be in the same mess now if they were in power up until now, and labour Im not sure I dont know much about the party but they are not coming across great in the media or on this forum.


I dont know its going to have to take some more thought

gsxr1

lcrcboy wrote: »

I dont know who to vote for really... They all seem as ****ed up and greedy as each other. Im tempted to vote for sinn fein but I just dont like the sound of there national policies and gerry adams seems like a muppet half the time he is being interviewed. For obvious reasons I wont vote for FF, and I think FG are to old and conservative plus I think we would be in the same mess now if they were in power up until now, and labour Im not sure I dont know much about the party but they are not coming across great in the media or on this forum.


I dont know its going to have to take some more thought

Gerry Adams is no Muppet. I do believe he would buy and sell everyone on here. He is no dumbo.
He negotiated the north into peace in my view. Against the most unmovable people. He turned a massive SDLP electorate into SF voters. In the the North west we seen big social changes because of his leadership . A lot of people here in the east dont really appreciate the conditions we(the irish in the north) where living in, till agreement.

But I also believe his time and methods are no longer what the party needs. Peace and republicanism is no longer the big agenda .

Economic policy is.. He is out of his depth here im afraid. Maybe SF should consider another head that speaks numbers better.

DB10

I hate the way Adams is put down for his so called ecomonic naivety.

- This is implying the other candidates are economists is it? We all know by now that IS NOT the case. And yet these people will gladly put down Adams while claiming Kenny, Gormley etc are complete financial experts.

- He will not be in Finance Minister or Taoiseach ever IMO. If they done amazingly well by chance all they would be is the smaller coalition party, which I think is perfect to keep others in check.


The irony is delicious. More fool anyone who hammers Adams for his economic thoughts, that will vote MOAN Burton in as finance minister.

Anyone who seen that trainwreck on VB can surely agree.

Capt'n Midnight

DB10 wrote: »

If they done amazingly well by chance all they would be is the smaller coalition party, which I think is perfect to keep others in check.

LOL I love the way this keeps being trotted out about keeping in check

The greens weren't able able to keep FF in check
PD's - don't make me laugh
or what about labour back in the day

and you only have to look at the legacy of the PD's ( VHI up 45% , eircom etc. ) to see just how dangerous a small party can be, they being a major contributor to the greed is good mentality responsible for lax regulation

DB10

SF won't be walked over like parties like the Greens and PD's.

In fairness there is quite a chance the Greens will collapse in the near future ala the PD's. These are smallish parties will a minority of candidates in most areas.

Whatever your opinions on their policies, I think the last thing that will happen is that they will be walked over or shouted down.

Fratton Fred

Can you imagine the st Patrick's day jollies these guys would go on? Cuba, libya, columbia....

deise go deo

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Can you imagine the st Patrick's day jollies these guys would go on? Cuba, libya, columbia....

.....Washington...

K-9

DB10 wrote: »

SF won't be walked over like parties like the Greens and PD's.

In fairness there is quite a chance the Greens will collapse in the near future ala the PD's. These are smallish parties will a minority of candidates in most areas.

Whatever your opinions on their policies, I think the last thing that will happen is that they will be walked over or shouted down.

Walked over, or I suppose less dramatically shouted down, by the DUP, though on economic issues.

Cicero

Can Sinn FeinIRA bring down the price of a good Bose sound system..??? I think they're lovely but very expensive and I can't afford them....:(

dizzywizlw

DB10 wrote: »

- This is implying the other candidates are economists is it? We all know by now that IS NOT the case. And yet these people will gladly put down Adams while claiming Kenny, Gormley etc are complete financial experts.

.

The other candidates don't think that reunification would be cost neutral.


Which in 'cop on' terms would be like saying we cost sustain our economy on tax alone without help from the EU/IMF...

Nodin

Riamfada wrote: »

Is there something wrong with you that you cannot take the point that I note historical simularities between the economic & political states of 1920s Germany and 2011 Ireland without resorting to a comment like that? .

Doing a more wordy version of 'THEY R TEH HITLER!!!!!' doesn't really elevate same to the status of some enlightened insight.

Riamfada wrote: »

Dont vote Sinn Fein because its full of childish, uneducated yobs who cant have an arguement without resorting to idiotic statements & baseless arguments because they clearly do not have the mental capacity to be involved in a political argument and represent a significant danger to the future of the people of this country.

Now, is that Irony? I think it is.....

gsxr1

Cicero wrote: »

Can Sinn FeinIRA bring down the price of a good Bose sound system..??? I think they're lovely but very expensive and I can't afford them....:(

enter the DUP

profitsflow

douglashyde wrote: »

read this: http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2011/0125/breaking20.html

If you vote for an idealistic mad party which think the solution to Ireland's problem "defaulting" our banks is a good idea - then by all means, work away and exercise your right to throw away your vote.

Iys unfair to riducule people because of the way they vote... Thats the sort of slimey thing thats FF policy... People have the right to vote whatever way they feel. By the way I'm not affiliated with any party. In fact I vote for local candidates that I feel have the most to offer rather than sheepishly towing a party line.

sydthebeat

im not going to thrawl through this whole thread.. but just to say that i wont be voting SF because their economic policy of refusing any EU bailout is high risk and ill conceived.

Krusader

DEFAULT, DEFAULT, DEFAULT

dotsman

Crosáidí wrote: »

DEFAULT, DEFAULT, DEFAULT

Wow, that clip just proves that any old idiot can have a voice on the internet.

Dionysus

danbohan wrote: »

the people who represented '' a significant danger to the future of the people of this country'' are just about to leave office , but perhaps you have not noticed

This.

Would people please wake up: whatever party gets into power is going to do almost precisely what Fianna Fáil is doing by virtue of the real, permanent government of Ireland still being the largely anonymous senior civil servants who have advised Fianna Fáil. It is delusional - delusional in the extreme - to think Fine Gael is going to be any less crooked with any less cronyism than Fianna Fáil. At the moment Fine Gael is reaping up corporate donations faster than any political party. Fine Gael has all the aspirations of Fianna Fáil when it comes to the interaction of big business and politics. There are no heroes.

“ANDREA: Unhappy the land that has no heroes!
GALILEO: No, unhappy the land that needs heroes.”

- Bertolt Brecht, Life of Galileo (1943)

ascanbe

I'd wager that the majority of people here ridiculing the idea of Ireland defaulting, know little of the process, the history of countries defaulting or what it would result in.
In the current national 'conversation', 'economic illiterates' is the phrase du-jour to throw at those who even countenance the idea; just as 'it's the only game in town' was constantly parroted at people who questioned the wisdom of the NAMA.
By rights, we should be refusing to pay debts we are not responsible for.
What's definite is that the 'deal' as currently constituted is, apart from being un-ethical, completely unworkable.

Fratton Fred

ascanbe wrote: »

I'd wager that the majority of people here ridiculing the idea of Ireland defaulting, know little of the process, the history of countries defaulting or what it would result in.
In the current national 'conversation', 'economic illiterates' is the phrase du-jour to throw at those who even countenance the idea; just as 'it's the only game in town' was constantly parroted at people who questioned the wisdom of the NAMA.
By rights, we should be refusing to pay debts we are not responsible for.
What's definite is that the 'deal' as currently constituted is, apart from being un-ethical, completely unworkable.

So who is responsible for those debts?

Johro

6 reasons to vote for Sinn Féin in this election

January 28th, 2011
1. Sinn Féin has shown that there is a better way. We were the only party not to sign up to the government’s consensus for cuts and instead put forward a real costed alternative for economic recovery.
2. Sinn Féin would reverse cuts to public services and social welfare introduced in Budget 2011. We are the only party to clearly state that we would do this.
3. Unlike the other parties Sinn Féin would stand up to the IMF and EU. Sinn Féin is an Irish republican party. We are a United Ireland party. We believe in the sovereignty, independence and freedom of the Irish people and the right of our people to build our own society.
4. Every TD elected for Sinn Féin will mean a stronger voice for working families, the unemployed and all those struggling to survive. The more Sinn Féin TDs elected the louder the voice for those they represent in the Dáil.
5. Sinn Féin stands up for ordinary people. Over the last year it is our party, which confronted this government and demanded higher standards. For us, actions speak louder than words. Sinn Féin was the only party to oppose the Lisbon Treaty, pointing out the dangers for our sovereignty. Sinn Féin forced the government to hold the Donegal SW by-election, exposed the Taoiseach’s contacts with leading people in Anglo, is the only party not to sign up to the Fianna Fáil / Green Party / Fine Gael / Labour consensus for cuts and instead put forward a real alternative for economic recovery. Sinn Féin TDs only take home the average industrial wage.
6. Sinn Féin will change politics and put an end to cronyism. Reform must start with the Dáil. That means cutting TD’s wages and expenses. It means changing how the Dáil business is done so the Government can be held to account. We would abolish the Seanad in its current form.


What's wrong with that?

Dionysus

Fratton Fred wrote: »

So who is responsible for those debts?

How about the people to whom those private German, British and French financial institutions lent the money? And if they can't pay, well then those private financial institutions make a loss. There's a concept. In fact, were it not for the fact that the ECB is controlled by politicians from the same countries whose private banks are exposed to the Irish market, the Irish taxpayer would have no responsibility to pay those private debts back to those countries' banks.

The only debt which the Irish state should be paying is our sovereign debt. End of.

ascanbe

Fratton Fred wrote: »

So who is responsible for those debts?

If those who borrowed the money, private banks, can't pay it back then those who lent it irresponsibly, other private institutions, are. Lending money is a gamble you take in order to make a profit; if you lend unwisely to a person/institution that cannot repay the debt, then that's your problem.
That's it in simple terms.

lugha

Johro wrote: »

Sinn Féin has shown that there is a better way. We were the only party not to sign up to the government’s consensus for cuts and instead put forward a real costed alternative for economic recovery.

Banking problems aside we are spending about 20 billion more than we take in. It is silly, or more likely dishonest, to argue that you can continue to spend at the same level.

Johro wrote: »

Sinn Féin would reverse cuts to public services and social welfare introduced in Budget 2011. We are the only party to clearly state that we would do this.

It is very unlikely that SF will be in power. But if by some strange turn of events they are, you can be certain they won’t do that. Perhaps some minimal changes to save face but no wholesale reversals.

Johro wrote: »

Unlike the other parties Sinn Féin would stand up to the IMF and EU.

We are in nothing like the position of strength to bargain with the IMF/EU that SF like to pretend. We might be able to negotiate a better deal but we will be in no position to demand it, as SF seems to think.

Johro wrote: »

Sinn Féin is an Irish republican party. We are a United Ireland party. We believe in the sovereignty, independence and freedom of the Irish people and the right of our people to build our own society.

Well, if that kind of stuff is your thing …. But SF have nothing new to offer. The how, if not the when, of a united Ireland is agreed. There is little SF can do to make it happen any quicker.

Johro wrote: »

Sinn Féin TDs only take home the average industrial wage.

But SF take the rest don’t they? Anyway, that is just populist nonsense. Politics in a hazardous career. It is already clear that many ordinary people who could make good public reps are not willing to take the risk of putting their career on hold, or even in jeopardy. If TDs only earned the average industrial wage it would only entice the already wealthy, and teachers!

NeedaNewName

lugha wrote: »

We are in nothing like the position of strength to bargain with the IMF/EU that SF like to pretend. We might be able to negotiate a better deal but we will be in no position to demand it, as SF seems to think.

You do realise the IMF were nearly broke before we all went Kaput over here? Yah?

squod

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q3YHNfQf6uw

NeedaNewName

BTW After moving in @ 2005 I think?

http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2010/dec/19/imf-refurbish-us-headquarters

lugha

NeedaNewName wrote: »

You do realise the IMF were nearly broke before we all went Kaput over here? Yah?

Right, so the plan is to tell the IMF to sod off (would you do the same to the EU, given our banks dependencies on them?)
Then we have a 20 billion annual deficit. No one will lend us money. We won't make cuts. And presumably we (i.e SF) won't sell any public assets.
So what do we do?

Krusader

default
Revert back to the punt (print our own debt free money)
change to full reserve state-owned banking system (any profit a bank makes goes into government coffers to be spend on national services)
government now has control of the issuance of new money (not the banks)
government issues money into the country while controlling inflation

would be bad for a year but just like Iceland will start to see growth then after

K-9

ascanbe wrote: »

If those who borrowed the money, private banks, can't pay it back then those who lent it irresponsibly, other private institutions, are. Lending money is a gamble you take in order to make a profit; if you lend unwisely to a person/institution that cannot repay the debt, then that's your problem.
That's it in simple terms.

I'm sure we'd all be saying the same if it was Irish banks taking the hit for German ones.

squod

lugha wrote: »

Right, so the plan is to tell the IMF to sod off (would you do the same to the EU, given our banks dependencies on them?)
Then we have a 20 billion annual deficit. No one will lend us money. We won't make cuts. And presumably we (i.e SF) won't sell any public assets.
So what do we do?

This has been covered many times over. If your going to put this argument up you going to have to come up with a better argument than that bullshit FF/FG election pamphlet copy-pasta.

Thankfully there are independents like Shane Ross, and now organised groups of independents like McWilliams' new vision who have a clearer understanding of the economic problems left by Cowen and his cronies

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2011/0201/1224288695000.html

lugha

squod wrote: »

This has been covered many times over. If your going to put this argument up ....

I haven't put any argument up.
I am asking those who say we should send the IMF and ECB packing to make their argument.
We will still have a massive budget deficit, even if we had no banking crisis. How is that deficit eliminated if we don't cut anything and we don't sell anything? How do we even deal with it short-term given that we opt not to borrow any money?

UDAWINNER

Johro wrote: »

6 reasons to vote for Sinn Féin in this election

January 28th, 2011
1. Sinn Féin has shown that there is a better way. We were the only party not to sign up to the government’s consensus for cuts and instead put forward a real costed alternative for economic recovery.
2. Sinn Féin would reverse cuts to public services and social welfare introduced in Budget 2011. We are the only party to clearly state that we would do this.
3. Unlike the other parties Sinn Féin would stand up to the IMF and EU. Sinn Féin is an Irish republican party. We are a United Ireland party. We believe in the sovereignty, independence and freedom of the Irish people and the right of our people to build our own society.
4. Every TD elected for Sinn Féin will mean a stronger voice for working families, the unemployed and all those struggling to survive. The more Sinn Féin TDs elected the louder the voice for those they represent in the Dáil.
5. Sinn Féin stands up for ordinary people. Over the last year it is our party, which confronted this government and demanded higher standards. For us, actions speak louder than words. Sinn Féin was the only party to oppose the Lisbon Treaty, pointing out the dangers for our sovereignty. Sinn Féin forced the government to hold the Donegal SW by-election, exposed the Taoiseach’s contacts with leading people in Anglo, is the only party not to sign up to the Fianna Fáil / Green Party / Fine Gael / Labour consensus for cuts and instead put forward a real alternative for economic recovery. Sinn Féin TDs only take home the average industrial wage.
6. Sinn Féin will change politics and put an end to cronyism. Reform must start with the Dáil. That means cutting TD’s wages and expenses. It means changing how the Dáil business is done so the Government can be held to account. We would abolish the Seanad in its current form.


What's wrong with that?

nothing at all, only left wing party worth voting for in my area

UDAWINNER

lugha wrote: »

I haven't put any argument up.
I am asking those who say we should send the IMF and ECB packing to make their argument.
We will still have a massive budget deficit, even if we had no banking crisis. How is that deficit eliminated if we don't cut anything and we don't sell anything? How do we even deal with it short-term given that we opt not to borrow any money?

the simple thing is we are going to have to default as we cannot simply afford these repayments in the long term, look at the tax projections. To me, its a question of when and not if when we default

squod

lugha wrote: »

I haven't put any argument up.
I am asking those who say we should send the IMF and ECB packing to make their argument.
We will still have a massive budget deficit, even if we had no banking crisis. How is that deficit eliminated if we don't cut anything and we don't sell anything? How do we even deal with it short-term given that we opt not to borrow any money?

There's two points I have to make here. 1.We have enough cash to tide us over for the next twelve months. (We're giving ~€20bn away to organise these loans and raising ~€5bn in the short term already)

2.The banking crisis will have to be resolved eventually, there is no bottomless pit of cash available to us and we cannot afford the EU/IMF deal. If we continue with FG/FF policy we will end up defaulting and then no-one will lend us anything.

I suggest we use that ~€20bn to stabilise the economy in the coming year and start some job creation programmes. Then return to the markets once these private debts associated with the banks have been separated from our sovereign debts and are dealt with.

lugha

UDAWINNER wrote: »

the simple thing is we are going to have to default as we cannot simply afford these repayments in the long term, look at the tax projections. To me, its a question of when and not if when we default

But we will still have a budget deficit. How do we deal with that? (And of course, if we default, then borrowing money from anyone in the short term won't be possible)

UDAWINNER

lugha wrote: »

But we will still have a budget deficit. How do we deal with that? (And of course, if we default, then borrowing money from anyone in the short term won't be possible)

Look at Iceland, they don't seem to have a problem boorowing. As a country we were made an example of as a warning to other EU countries. The big problem is we had idiots negotiating on our behalf, would love to play poker with biffo and lenihan.

Krusader

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-02-01/iceland-proves-ireland-did-wrong-things-saving-banks-instead-of-taxpayer.html

Good article on Iceland and what we should be doing

“Iceland did the right thing by making sure its payment systems continued to function while creditors, not the taxpayers, shouldered the losses of banks,” says Nobel laureate Joseph Stiglitz, an economics professor at Columbia University in New York. “Ireland’s done all the wrong things, on the other hand. That’s probably the worst model.”

lugha

squod wrote: »

There's two points I have to make here. 1.We have enough cash to tide us over for the next twelve months. (We're giving ~€20bn away to organise these loans and raising ~€5bn in the short term already)

2.The banking crisis will have to be resolved eventually, there is no bottomless pit of cash available to us and we cannot afford the EU/IMF deal. If we continue with FG/FF policy we will end up defaulting and then no-one will lend us anything.

I suggest we use that ~€20bn to stabilise the economy in the coming year and start some job creation programmes. Then return to the markets once these private debts associated with the banks have been separated from our sovereign debts and are dealt with.

Well, I think that is a very risky route to go given that our banks are being propped up by the EMF. Our best chance is to hope that the EMF are talking tough (to dissuade others from turning to them too readily) and that that they will negotiate more favorable terms down the line.

Anyway, that wasn't the point of the post you quoted. I asked how is the budget deficit to be reduced if cuts are ruled out (and will even be reversed)?

squod

lugha wrote: »

Anyway, that wasn't the point of the post you quoted. I asked how is the budget deficit to be reduced if cuts are ruled out (and will even be reversed)?

We've taken €14bn out of the economy in the last couple of years. In real terms people on low and middle incomes spend locally. The more you take away from them the more the economy suffers. It's a knock-on effect.

McWilliams did a piece on this today. If it's up on youtube in a couple of days I'll post it up. In my view the government need to focus on primary sector employment that reaches out to the wider economy.

lugha

squod wrote: »

We've taken €14bn out of the economy in the last couple of years. In real terms people on low and middle incomes spend locally. The more you take away from them the more the economy suffers. It's a knock-on effect.

Yes, I know cuts can be counterproductive. And some would argue that spending more, not less is the way to go. But this "more" money would have to be borrowed.
So when we run out in a few months, who will lend to us? Bearing in mind that we will have burnt bridges with the IMF and the ECB. And will possibly have no banking system.

K-9

UDAWINNER wrote: »

Look at Iceland, they don't seem to have a problem boorowing. As a country we were made an example of as a warning to other EU countries. The big problem is we had idiots negotiating on our behalf, would love to play poker with biffo and lenihan.

They have to satisfy certain conditions of the IMF and Scandinavian loans. There was a big doubt last year that they would get the next tranche.

As for it being an example, I'm not sure. Wages down 10/15% after devaluation, 63% of households in mortgage arrears, 40% technically insolvent, stuff like that suggests it isn't quite the SF utopia they'd like us to believe.

The Reykjavik Grapevine - Life, Travel and Entertainment in Iceland / Everything Well Under Control?

Oh, plus their mortgage solution is to give bail outs to the irresponsible borrowers and leave prudent borrowers carrying the can and the tax payer paying the banks.

Capt'n Midnight

Crosáidí wrote: »

default
Revert back to the punt (print our own debt free money)

printable money only works if people have confidence that they can recover it's value anytime, this means you have to have assets to back it up with. Otherwise it's just pretty paper.

As one example we currently import almost all our fuel, without hard currency it would become extremely expensive.

K-9

squod wrote: »

We've taken €14bn out of the economy in the last couple of years. In real terms people on low and middle incomes spend locally. The more you take away from them the more the economy suffers. It's a knock-on effect.

McWilliams did a piece on this today. If it's up on youtube in a couple of days I'll post it up. In my view the government need to focus on primary sector employment that reaches out to the wider economy.

Under SF ideas, we'd have to take €14 Billion out again, almost immediately, not over 3 years.

squod

lugha wrote: »

So when we run out in a few months, who will lend to us? Bearing in mind that we will have burnt bridges with the IMF and the ECB. And will possibly have no banking system.

Probably the same people who are willing to lend to us now
You do get me when I say we can't afford the EU/IMF deal and that the private debt of the banks will have to sorted out? Paying back an unmanageable €124bn will seem a poorer/riskier investment than paying back a significantly smaller sum. You do get that don't you?

Anyways, keep a look-out for any of Ross' or McWillaims' recommended independent candidates and what they have to say.

http://news.ie.msn.com/article.aspx?cp-documentid=156012173

squod

K-9 wrote: »

Under SF ideas, we'd have to take €14 Billion out again, almost immediately, not over 3 years.

I'm not advocating SF policy, merely stating that being half right is better than being 100% wrong.