3 New Navy Vessels for Irish Naval Service

California Dreamer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118780503#Comment_118780503

What about the Dublin Port Shackleton? Or is that something totally different altogether?

https://www.dublinport.ie/wp-content/uploads/2019/08/09.4-2019-Towage.pdf

Dohvolle

Oh yeah, forgot them.

That said, there is already a ferry called WB Yeats.

Larbre34

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118784374#Comment_118784374

The Naval Service got there first IIRC

Larbre34

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118782973#Comment_118782973

Thats just an outcome of circumstance. They have to be certified as serviceable and fit for transport, which can hardly be done after they are transported!

I imagine some of the systems, accommodations and weapons work will be done at Haulbowline, as well as crew type familiarisation, but the big money must be unavoidably spent in NZ because thats where they are.

ancientmariner

There are many Irish names that might provide a suitable selection for the naming of the IPC's. My choice would be BRANSFIELD from Cloyne, and CROZIER from Down.

Some thought should be given to bringing the ships home from New Zealand on their own bottoms and propulsion. Ciara and Orla steamed home from Hong Kong. Possible Auckland to Brisbane, Brisbane to Cairns, Cairns to Jarkarta, Jakarta to Singapore, Singapore to Belawan, Belawan to Colombo, and so on staying under 2,500 nm legs. Great adventure in company and a real Show the flag trip, home through the Suez canal.

sparky42

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118794231#Comment_118794231

Given crew issues, even with a year to plan it would we need to take at least one of the other ships out of service to be able to sail them back?

ancientmariner

Don't know. ORLA, CIARA, Eithne don't require a crew as they are all on the bench. We have done expeditionary voyages before such as circumnavigation of South America and a trip to the Far east both voyages by LE NIAMH.I think ROISIN made it into the Great Lakes and CHICAGO. Eithne has been to South and North America. Put it in the ECDIS and give them the route charts as back up, increase fridge space for voyage. Make fresh water if possible so that fuel and spending money are the only replenishments. It would give schools a great daily track the ships programme and impress future recruits.

Larbre34

I'd be surprised if they were insured for passage home under their own steam. Lot of extra wear and tear and challenging seas.

More likely to get someone like RBW to do it. Its their stock in trade and wouldn't need nearly as many fuel and supply stops en route.

This is their 'Blue Marlin', submersible carrier, transporting two USN minesweepers of 58m each.

Dohvolle

Its not the time for lengthy voyages. Bad enough we have to wait till this time next year for them to be delivered

roadmaster

I am going way of topic here i know. But seen the other day a uscg dolphin/dauphin operating off a uscg cutter on a documentry. The uscg dolphins seam to be a major sucess operating nearly 40 years in SAR. Why where are Dauphins not as sucessfull?

Larbre34

Like so many helicopters, the Dauphin has evolved hugely over the years.

The examples you see operating now are likely what they call model N3+, which is light years ahead of the early series aircraft, like the Air Corps acquired in 1986.

Those simply did not have the characteristics to suit Air Corps / Naval Service operations of the time. Senior Air Corps officers of the time criticised its performance in heavy weather, its fuel range for looters, unstable winch performance, its open water search capabilities, its lack of a low-speed single-engine limp home mode, and poor equipment for independent night and low visibility landing - all of which are needed for a naval and SAR helicopter in the North Atlantic.

They were simply a craft not up to what was demanded of it and four airmen were sadly lost in 1999.

It's easy to forget though, they did remain in service for 14 years and weren't withdrawn particularly early, even though the Alouette was in service for over twice that long.

They seem to do very well in the USCG, where they operate close to their bases and mother ships, but I would guess they aren't fondly missed by anyone of that era still in the Air Corps.

ancientmariner

In the beginning the Dauphin was selected with two marinized aircraft for P31 use. The integration and trialling by day and night was done by a French naval team, including landing 180deg towards the stern. The main USN/CG difference was using US Lyncoming engines which in fact gave a higher COG to the airframe. Ours went to the Chilean navy and had another life. These aircraft were fitted with day and night flight capability and met full international flight rules. No flight left P31's deck that couldn't return. All flights were fully briefed before departure.

Reluctance became apparent very early after the French departed. Naval attempts to fly didn't succeed even though we discussed a training programme with the Brits.

roadmaster

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118797052#Comment_118797052

So if the navy got back in to operating aircraft off ships would they need to be navy helicopters and not air corps? I presume that with this new naval ranger unit they will uave to have a helicopter

ancientmariner

Initially, as with other new OPV's, the goal is to provide a deck to allow in theatre helicopters to land for reasons as they arise. if you carry troops for insertion this can be done by water craft or more rapidly and nearer the objective by helicopter. The attention now is on the MRV which will have a large Flight deck capable of taking most helicopters. Training naval fliers would need clear planning and thinking. The original plan was to train fixed wing flying with AC, then go to Yeovilton or equivalent for conversion to helicopter flying and landing on a training barge. Then convert to Lynx and gain a number of landings on a frigate. then convert to Dauphin with the French with deck landings at sea. Then come home and train with Eithne using Cork Airport as base and local maintenance. Fly on the day of sailing, do voyage, and fly off the day before arrival at base to Cork Airport to continue with flying hours before rejoining for next voyage. A package of three Helos might have been better than two.

We believed but those that could make it work were very reluctant and upset.

Larbre34

Let's walk before we run.

Getting back into Naval aviation and the expansion of rotary operations generally to include dedicated airframes for special operations forces is all a massive, massive task.

To my mind, it all has to be Air Corps pilots, with excellence and safe flying at the core of the effort. Then they can be rotated to duties in Cork and at sea as needed.

The most important thing is to have competency across all the rotary types and to have a commonality of fleet, like for example looking at the Leonardo medium-lift twin helicopters for Naval work.

Dohvolle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118798775#Comment_118798775

We tried it that way, it failed because of the Air Corps.

NZ have a better system. 6 Sqn of the NZAF houses the helis, does the big hours checks etc. Pilots are Navy first though.

https://youtu.be/iOROljrrUMc

tippilot

By all means operate a joint flight school but any future naval flight operations must be fully crewed by navy personnel. Helicopters must be assets under NS own control with freedom to deploy whenever/wherever they are needed.

As Dohville said a huge portion of blame for why the previous attempt failed was due to the Air Corp's preference for displaying their "excellence" back at home base.

ancientmariner

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118798775#Comment_118798775

We were back in Naval Base having completed day/night flying off Wicklow. I decided to take a day's leave on Monday with P31 alongside at the Oil Wharf. Some sixth sense told me to go in early in the afternoon. On approaching the Oil Wharf there was an Air Corps truck alongside the ships gangway. The NCO in charge of the truck party told me that the his Engineer told him to take the mobile start trolley and a range of tools back to Baldonnel. I told him he was stealing ship's equipment and to put everything back in the hangar. I told him everything on the ship was part of the ships and my inventory . He left and I never trusted their modes of operation again. I couldn't understand why as they got a similar unit at Baldonnel. Perhaps they burned it out and were stealing ours.

Larbre34

How do ye plan to run a totally autonomous NS air wing without a runway?

So much of helicopter ops are about ferrying bits and parts and manufacturer techies and space for rolling tests etc.

Where would the NS do that? Is there even room on the island for an air wing hanger, accommodation, flight line, ops and control suite, fuel dumps etc?

Including the maritime SOF, and possibly two MRVs, you could be looking at 6 to 8 airframes rotating service in and from Cork.

ancientmariner

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118800223#Comment_118800223

Cork Airport with an allotted or leased facility. Fly from there for shipboard assignments.

Dohvolle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118800223#Comment_118800223

There is actually. Half km north to south in the middle bit there(You'd safely fit a 400m runway for light aircraft, with no obstructions to the north or south). Plenty for rolling heli takeoffs. After that for anything larger Cork airport is a short drive away. There is loads of room near the new tower if you needed to build infrastructure.

ancientmariner

We want to develop that space for Naval berthage on the West wall with water and power laid on. More accommodation buildings will be required and development of drydock as an operational covered dock. There is a line of incoming Power Pylons and wire just to the West of the bridge line. A NAS in Cork Airport would be fine with Helos and two MPA's under Naval Operation and Control.

roadmaster

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118801085#Comment_118801085

The poor Air Corps reading this will be crying in to there cornflakes. Navy takes some helicopters and control of MPAs. Next the army want there own helicopters whats left for the air corps apart from P45s!.

Is the defence forces structure similar to how the beligan model works or is it totally different?

jonnybigwallet

Ha Ha!

Larbre34

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118801335#Comment_118801335

The current structure and what it will become are very different propositions.

So no straight answer!

For years here we've talked about options of integrating the AC and NS more like a Coastguard, but if the CoD report is adopted in any way, they will be more siloed than ever, albeit on an equal footing.

Will the new 'Navy' take over all maritime patrol as well as naval helicopter ops? Will the Army and the Special Operations Force operate their own helicopters instead too?

What will that leave for the 'Air Force' to replace those tasks? Primary radar, airlift, flight training, GASU?

ancientmariner

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118803376#Comment_118803376

Not sure about the Acronym but obviously in a Defence Force those that fly should Mix and be comfortable on land and at sea when necessary. The failure to get to sea is the problem and fleet requirements need an air interface to be flexible and meet modern demands for helos and fixed wing surveillance at sea. The Air Force needs it's Air Transport, Detection, Interception, and vitally Close Air Support with Forward Air Controllers and Battle field targeting radars. Infrequent parlour games or demo exercises need to be upgraded to daily routines and Defence is an All Arms undertaking which must be nurtured and paramount.

Tabnabs

Tender gone out for four RIBs capable of being launched off a trailer on various terrain types. P2 certified and capable of taking up to 10 occupants.

Be interesting to see what manufacturer gets the nod.

Dohvolle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118812839#Comment_118812839

For Army or Navy?

Tabnabs

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118814710#Comment_118814710

Army, Corps of Engineers, specifically.

Larbre34

🤣

Load up the bulldozers.