3 New Navy Vessels for Irish Naval Service

ancientmariner

As regards an " action plan" what will be it's professional relevance. We are so far behind minimum fit for purpose standards that the main need will be the appointment of a professional implementation group to oversee equipment requirements and associated Training .

We have in the past got rid of good kit and that has partially led to our deficiencies in capability. We lack certainty and need to follow a specialist diagnosis.

jonnybigwallet

What we don't need is some feckin committee to do another study. It's time for a hefty pay rise for all ranks, a proper career progression with training for a decent job post service and some orders placed pronto for some decent kit for the Air Corps and the Navy in particular and whatever is lacking in the Army. Not forgetting a primary military radar, an airlifter such as the KC 390 and a new Dassault government jet. Thevexisting top brass know what is needed as a matter of priority. By all means do a bit more study to fine tune things a bit, but not another excuse to kick the can down the road for another 2 years. This is supposed to be an ACTION PLAN!

Larbre34

It's not an action plan, it's an investment strategy, an outline proposal for gradual growth to be commenced in the budget next October.

The matter of decoupling DF pay from the rest of the analogous public service rates could kill the whole thing in the crib, because frankly, buying 100 F-35s would be more easily conceded than that.

So those of little patience, I advise keep your blood pressure tablets handy for the next decade or so. This is very much a marathon, not a sprint.

Do you work for Embraer or something Jonny, you're obsessed? Even if we had the money tomorrow we aren't going to buy those Brazilian shyt boxes, it'll be a European model or bust. C27J or a refurbed C-130 from a continental Air Force.

sparky42

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118838564#Comment_118838564

Pretty much all of this a thousand times over whether we like it or not. Every other Union and sector in the Public service will be ready to knife any suggestion of increased pay unless everyone else gets more (that based off how said unions have always been happy to knife the DF personnel in pay talks).

Anything that can be done will be like the long planned health reforms, something that needs cross party support and 10+ years of a time frame.

roadmaster

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118838697#Comment_118838697

They could always try and tie there pay to the guards and say they are only getting equal pay

sparky42

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118839020#Comment_118839020

Like you say they can try, but as one of the RTÉ political reporters out it back when the Report came out, to do that means Defence rising to eat into the available budget for Health/Education/Justice, none of those departments are going to quietly accept that and I doubt the unions would either.

Larbre34

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118839020#Comment_118839020

I understood there was an analogy between DF pay and Garda pay, but that Gardaí are linked more to junior officers rather than enlisted and ratings.

The benchmarking needs to be against other militaries in Europe, with appropriate scaling for cost of living in Ireland.

Another vital aspect is going to be pay for specialist reservists in the areas of cyber and communications. A committed skilled reserve will be vital to the new areas of responsibility for the DF

Dohvolle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118839264#Comment_118839264

You'd be surprised to learn that compared to our nearest neighbour, our pay is comparable. The biggest difference though is they still provide living accom to their single and married soldiers.

We stopped doing that in the 1970s, and the Govt have repeatedly said they have no plans to re-introduce it.

So you either pay someone enough that they can afford a home, or you pay them as you are, and provide a home for them.

ancientmariner

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118840684#Comment_118840684

That is the kernel of the problem where the basic foundations of a Defence force have been removed as anachronistic so no family accommodation, no hospitals field or otherwise. Pay can be fixed by a mix of allowances and pay rises. However the inherent fit for purpose problem does need expert guidance to ensure we acquire the relevant hardware and training. We should pick from the current playbook in Europe for ground war and add some strike, ASW, AAW and surveillance to the navy. The Air Corps have shown what transport legs can do on their Polish flights, so add some CAS, and interceptor capability. We also need to look to our dispersal facilities and curtail changing Defence lands and properties to a developers paradise and a strategic nightmare for the future. A Brigade needs a huge amount of land and two Brigades need twice as much. The Navy has one base and soon will add 6 new craft. The Air Corps needs the use of at least three more airstrips with facilities countrywide.

tippilot

There is insufficient divergence from Current army cooperation And strategic level

roadmaster

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118841596#Comment_118841596

Talking about extra facilites, With the potential of a third naval base if the east coast happens, i was in greencastle during the week. If a extra pier was built there would it be suitable for a small naval base?

ancientmariner

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118841745#Comment_118841745

Navy needs any dedicated pier available all stages of Tide 24/7. Greencastle as a location is "sensitive". we have anchored off but it drew occasional comments given that the Foyle is a bit like the Bosporus and Magilligan point is any shot you like away from Greencastle.

Larbre34

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118841745#Comment_118841745

Third?

Where's the second?

roadmaster

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118843433#Comment_118843433

Did you not say previously DL was going to he where to two NZ ships will be based?

source

It was suggested on here as a possibility.

Larbre34

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118843964#Comment_118843964

Oh right, I see what you mean, subsequent to the East Coast station.

Let's walk before we run eh.

roadmaster

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118843989#Comment_118843989

Maybe its time the leadership started double marching and not walking or there will be no one left

ancientmariner

Normally when people buy furniture or white goods they will always have a place to put it in their home. We are buying 6 various craft for naval use and we don't know yet their permanent secure bases, storage facilities, and under whose command they will be, while detached or attached.

roadmaster

I seen in the times this morning Ciara,Orla & Eithne are offically going to be stoid down. Either for scrap or a friendly nation. One of the Baltic states maybe?

jonnybigwallet

Malta is my guess. Ukraine?

sparky42

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118849987#Comment_118849987

Malta doesn’t have the people, Ukraine isn’t an option. The Philippines might have some interest in the Peacocks since they run the other hulls, though they have seen significant changes since they got them.

Dohvolle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118848601#Comment_118848601

You may not know. Others do.

"We" are buying 2 ships. Per the indo today we are also scrapping 3. So until the east coast base is sorted out, there is plenty PLENTY of room in Haulbowline, they'll just take the space vacated by the slightly larger ships they replace.

The 4 other craft are not due for delivery until the period 2023-2026(one per year). They are motor launches. Not aircraft carriers. The boats they replaced (Aine Laoi, MTL Niamh, Nancy Bet, Barbara Heck, Freya etc) all had secure berthage in the past, I cannot see how it would be any different for these 14m craft.

P40 and P41 have very little useful life left in them. Their accom was substandard in 1989 when they entered service with us. Fine for living at anchor in Hong Kong Harbour but not ideal for the needs of a modern navy working coastal waters. They became a problem for us as soon as the NS took on female crew, and privacy could not be guaranteed. It may not be how things were in the old days, but hey, slavery was acceptable in the 18th century also. Their nickname in service was "Yorkie's- Not for girls" paraphrasing the non PC ad for the chocolate bar at one time. Main engines useless below 8kn, the loiter drive to propel the ship below those speeds was very maintenance intensive. Best place for them is at the other end of a cutting torch. Scrap steel price is good at present. The 76mm Main armament may be useful either for spares or to retrofit future vessels, who knows. Some of ours were already 2nd hand. The Rhino's are also good for many years to come.

P31 however has potential as a second life either away from Naval use, or in calmer waters, as a mother ship for smaller craft. She has excellent living and machinery spaces, and if her hull is in better condition than that of the P20s when they retired, I can see her working as an accom ship for offshore wind farms or similar. I for one would not like to see her broken up, while there is still useful life in her.

ancientmariner

Since the Former HMS SWIFT and HMS SWALLOW were received from the good offices of Margaret Thatcher perhaps we should give them back to the Brits for scrapping. If the outfits on P31 can be restored to full operational capacity then we should keep her, as you say for training and her surveillance capacity.

When building own ships or acquiring ships the critical immediate operational matter is how does she handle at lowest speed and can she loiter for an hour or so. What happens when you clutch in, does she take off at knots. Does she have a zero thrust position at the quay wall. I noticed RNZN departing in an NZ video and the ships were positioned by two naval tugs before departure.

As regards Berthage other than Haulbowline, the State relinquished all rights to a free berth in any Irish Harbour in new Harbour Acts. Two ships on the East Coast will need a new permanent Base. This will be the First time the NSR will have a purpose built Naval craft. Berthage before was often organised by unit officers under an old Pals Act. However as you say, they may know, but I'm sceptical. Wait and see.

jonnybigwallet

https://nationalinterest.org/blog/reboot/germany%E2%80%99s-foray-seas-type-212a-stealth-submarine-192299

roadmaster

A British company called Houlder have won the contract to advise on the MRV. They have worked on the new british carriers and david attenborough ship

jonnybigwallet

Sounds very promising.

Dohvolle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118860298#Comment_118860298

Interesting. Both designs used modular building techniques also. Can speed the process up somewhat.

ancientmariner

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118860298#Comment_118860298

At the outbreak of WW11 the British set up a Royal Institute of Naval Architects Group to produce designs for up to 700 Naval vessels to support the war effort. They were to be built at any commercial yard and adapted to fit required equipment and manning scales. The famous Flower Class Corvette was from a whale catcher design but was quickly adapted and lengthened for use as an ocean escort. She was tweaked further by Lengthening her Forecastle. Modify the navigation bridge to improve asdic control(sonar). Depth Charge armament increased. Protect personnel from MG Fire and splinters. Deepen Bilge keels for roll reduction. Increase electrical power Introduce steam heating and mechanical ventilation. These vessels were used by 25 Navies and the Class was upgraded to RIVER CLASS and LOCH CLASS with 22 knots and 650 tons of fuel oil for long duration tasking. Houlders have a long reputation in ship building and owning however yards are scarce.

Dohvolle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118870546#Comment_118870546

They are not building the ship, they are advising on the tendering, and acting as project managers for the construction.

The Build tender is expected later this year.

jonnybigwallet

Hope they come up woth something decent with plenty of firepower!