3 New Navy Vessels for Irish Naval Service

Markcheese

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119003838#Comment_119003838

But an opv could ..

ancientmariner

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119003590#Comment_119003590

If we look at the figures to keep ships at sea 6 OPV's at 45 per ship is 270. 2 EU Corvettes at 90 per ship 180, 2 mine clearance at 45 per ship is 90, one MRV at 75 crew, 3 AIP Submarines at 30 per ship is 90, 10 Training craft with 4 permanent crew is 40. That gives 745 for a full deployment of all ships. We need to allow the same again for SGR and training, meaning 1490 for full availability and contingencies. To this we add manning for each naval base possibly requiring 150 at main base and school augmented by SGR's not yet used, then allow 100 for out bases plus Reserves on call. The Dockyard are mostly civilians. It could be close to 1900 for a workable establishment, but would need close calculations to reach sustainable figures.

jonnybigwallet

That sounds like the kind of navy we should have.

roadmaster

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119003862#Comment_119003862

An so could the MRV with its flightdeck

Markcheese

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119004578#Comment_119004578

True - I thought the Atlantic was a little rough for regular helicopter use ? The Beckets are big enough to have had a flight deck if it was wanted - ( or maybe afforded ),. And I'm not dissing the idea of having a flight deck, hanger and dedicated helicopters ( plural ) for the opv -

I'm just questioning corvettes ect ...

sparky42

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119004655#Comment_119004655

You do get the number of navies that operate helicopters day in day out in the Atlantic? The Becketts not having helicopter capability was an enforced design decision from DOD from memory.

Dohvolle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119004988#Comment_119004988

While the Air Corps lack any helis capable of operating from ships, and have no plan to get any, there was no point in adding to cost by incorporating a helideck. The purpose of the Heli on P31 has since been superseded by the use of satellite tracking, and more effective maritime patrol aircraft. That is not to say the P60 cannot be used as a platform for UAVs, should a suitable platform be selected in years to come.

sparky42

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119005062#Comment_119005062

Given the lifespan of any of the Navy’s ships, making a decision like that was in my mind shortsighted, sure at the time of building and up to now the AC didn’t/doesn’t, but 10/20 years from now?

Dohvolle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119005143#Comment_119005143

The Lifespan of the P50 and P60 will be much shorter than the P20s and P30s. I understand P51 has a out of service date of 2028. At that point we can consider where the future takes us, Ideally somewhere down the EPC road.

roadmaster

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119005469#Comment_119005469

So the mid life upgrades the P51s got and are getting are more like a final service if there is only 6 years left

Dohvolle

Six years, and start planning your replacement, which could take another 4 years.

roadmaster

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119005859#Comment_119005859

Could we presume there is a good planning department in the Navy and they are already considering replacement options?

sparky42

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119005469#Comment_119005469

So at least 29 years… Given history of procurement I wouldn’t be hugely surprised if that slips closer to 35 unless there’s serious issues with her by that stage.

donvito99

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119001711#Comment_119001711

Well, we can only hope that she's not just limited to HADR. If it the MRV is along the lines of the Vard render with the Irish AW139s, it won't be doing fisheries protection.

Operation Atalanta - looking out for emaciated fishermen in Dhows. Yup, huge capability leap there. The other navies are doing that Op in ships that can actually defend their interests.

We're talking 200m - we could acquire all of the sonar's, radars and support we like with that sort of money, then lease any auld off shore platform a la the Kiwis dive support vessel.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119003642#Comment_119003642

Terrific contribution there Dohvolle, thanks for that.

Dohvolle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119006519#Comment_119006519

There isn't much point in offering much more. You seem to be missing the fact that the MRV/EPV is almost at contract stage. Nobody is going to start from a clean sheet now.

You still have not explained why a 4000T ship cannot do fishery protection (which is not a Primary Naval role in any event).

donvito99

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119006636#Comment_119006636

Until a contact is signed, nothing is off the table. All Government procurement works in this way, nobody is afraid of a sunk cost in Merrion St. Unfortunately, the recent interest in a better funded defence force increases the likelihood of this car ferry being procured.

I can point to an example of a 4000t (Edit: twice as large, but my god it's small despite the draught. What if anything are we going to fit in this MRV??) ship being incapable of fisheries protection - HMNZS Canterbury. What are you bringing to this debate?

sparky42

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119006100#Comment_119006100

Assuming that there is an attempt to still buy some Counter Mine capability would such hulls replace the P50s or is the Navy still planning/hoping they get them to notationally replace the Peacocks? If it isn’t the Counter Mine hulls, then who knows, the FDI and EPC projects should be in full swing by then so we’d have an idea of costs if that was what we were looking for.

sparky42

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119006636#Comment_119006636

I was going to say, at this stage fishery protection shouldn’t really be on the radar so to speak for roles when procurement is being decided.

Dohvolle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119006670#Comment_119006670

I have 1200 or so posts on this site. Roughly 1000 of them are on this topic alone.

I don't like repeating myself.

Dohvolle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119006100#Comment_119006100

Very much so. When the time comes, and Minister for Finance asks "How much" you need to be ready with a figure, and not just "probably...".

Someone in the know submitted a proposal to CoDF suggesting to get a 12 ship fleet with a mix of vessels capable of covering all aspects of Maritime defence would cost about €65m a year. Starting this year. That includes replacing all the current fleet within the next 20 years. Including Mine countermeasures, anti submarine and anti air, as well as the Legacy MRV(2 of).

roadmaster

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119006784#Comment_119006784

Maybe it would be no harm for the state to apply for Observer Status on the EPC like portugal and croatia

sparky42

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119006922#Comment_119006922

IMO, there’s plenty of the PESCO projects that we should be more heavily involved in, and yes the EPC would certainly be one, Coveney in comments has hinted in deeper involvement with EU projects, might be a way to try and head off any political level issues?

donvito99

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119006890#Comment_119006890

And I have several hundred posts in threads on Dublin's Metro, a similarly enormous investment relative to historical spending that has been successively cancelled and re-scoped by Government over the past 2 decades - the same people responsible for determining the useless functions of this MRV. It is not set in stone until steel is cut

P.S. by contrast I do appear enjoy repeating myself.

ancientmariner

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119010055#Comment_119010055

Taking into account, that today's Irish Examiner leader estimate's that MOD has decided that he will seek to implement Level 2.5 of the Commission's proposals. It mentions NO fighters and leaves the task to the RAF. We are totally goosed if we do not come under a skilled advisory group to design and implement a national defence scheme.

The key value of an MRV vessel is it's ability to keep itself, naval forces, landing forces, and the needs of those requiring humanitarian aid in the realms of possibility. A large flight deck allows for moving personnel, stores, and a deck of refuge if the need arises. Such a vessel needs a range of Defensive hardware including CIWS, ASM's, and AAM's.

Ireland is one of the only places in the world without a metro, and post Georgian very few basement features in buildings. Consequently we have very few places of refuge when countries go berserk and start killing defenceless neighbours. For that reason alone Dublin needs a METRO with large deep concourses.

Right now circumstances are overtaking us and we need clear thinking to minimise future risk and also deal with the submarine that is going to launch a 150 megaton nuclear torpedo.

Larbre34

The Russians don't actually have the Poseidon weapon, it's a concept and given the quality of their actual hardware performance that we have seen on the battlefield lately, up to and including guided missile cruisers, it doesn't worry me in actuality at all.

We should though have an undersea monitoring and interception capability to protect our offshore data, energy and fisheries resources, which are a only going to get much bigger and more vital in the coming years.

thomil

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119020017#Comment_119020017

They "technically" have it, i.E. they've got a few of them completed from what I've been able to see. What they're lacking is the launch platforms. Poseidon is far too large to be launched from regular torpedo tubes, so they'll need specialized submarines to deploy the weapon. Right now, the only sub capable of doing so is K-329 "Belgorod", a heavily modified Oscar-II class submarine that has been lengthened to such a degree that it's even bigger than the famed Typhoon class subs. However, Belgorod is still working up for commissioning later this year and given that she's also designed to act as a special missions submarine and mother ship for Paltus and Losharik deep diving submersibles, it remains to be seen whether she'll be carrying Poseidon on a permanent basis.

Meanwhile, a dedicated launch platform in the shape of the Khabarovsk class, a subvariant of the new Borei class ballistic missile submarines, is under construction. However, I doubt we'll see the first of those boats in operation until 2027. So it's definitely more of a theoretical capability in general.

Larbre34

Let's see whats left of the Russian military as a funded entity by then. If I was a Russian swabbie, I'd be more concerned with blowing themselves up with it.

ancientmariner

I accept the RU have come up short on their operations which seem to drag on and are stymied by prepared defences. On the other hand we are faced with being in the way of the enemies of Europe and fail to use assets we have, such as ATC Radars, and we binned the best of that capability in the P31 era.

The submersibles on a RU Submarine are up to 1000 tonnes and are fitted with bottom working cutting and recovery gear. We should seek to join those with common Defence strategies and go into the business of mutual support. I would nominate Sweden and Norway as a Defensive partners.

Larbre34

All very well in theory, but opponents in this State will hold up any formalised cooperation as a violation of Article 29.4.9. At least if its done under PESCO its covered by EU provisions.

Mind you, why the same lefty loonies don't hold the MoU with the RAF as a violation of '9' is anyone's guess.

ancientmariner

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119010055#Comment_119010055

In the last few decades with the growth of Military Operations other than War (MOOTW) we have seen the development of the OPV which has now reached a standard of almost a warship with flight decks, automatic weapons with FCS and management systems and an ability to take task enhancements including autonomous systems. With the evolving nature of naval warfare and dealing with smuggling, piracy, and various levels of disaster the advent of MRV type vessels has arrived. Navies now have to deal with situations that requires an ability to fetch and carry, provide emergency medical care, humanitarian relief, establish on scene a helicopter platform for replenishment or evacuation on a scale recently seen in the Mediterranean. Navies are also involved in border protection, provide support and command for piracy interdiction and long-range counter-terrorist actions such as arms smuggling. A self-reliant mother ship gives longevity to tasks at sea across many mission profiles.