3 New Navy Vessels for Irish Naval Service

Larbre34

This nonsense about the Cork Dockyard needs to be put to bed.

If the 'Ambition' in LoA is truly to be addressed, investment in ancillary infrastructure like expanding drydocks, runways, hangars, workshops, stores, personnel and family living quarters, technical and academic learning facilities etc - all must be slated for improvement to meet the needs of an expanding DF, not cited as a limitation for same.

ancientmariner

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119060648#Comment_119060648

Not nonsense but strategic blindness by Government since the eighties. The renaissance of Cork Dockyard was the wartime foundation of ISL. The State took over Cork Dockyard to ensure a repair facility for it's new wartime fleet. It was then passed to VCD as part of the shipbuilding enterprise at Cork. It was further augmented by a Floating Dock for smaller craft.

The State built it's only Dry Dock in Dublin complete with full workshop facilities and in 2020's DPA was allowed close it down so that we then had only one medium sized dock. In the meantime the Cork facility was hoovered up by DSG and facilities were slimmed down to a drydock and a selection of maritime contractors. Certain buildings and workshops have disappeared off GOOGLE Maps.

The State were gifted a Naval base and a large, in basin, drydock in 1938. In our wisdom it was let become ineffective for the benefit of slimming costs and helping Irish Steel Holdings. Pump houses were dismantled and gates sold to Hammond Lane.

Our problem is getting rid of things that are essential so that we are not burdened by complexities.

roadmaster

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119061461#Comment_119061461

Would it be a major job to extend and reopen the naval base drydock?

sparky42

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119064301#Comment_119064301

Not to be a smart arse, but I suppose it would depend on the budgets and the future hull numbers, it's not beyond our ability to do so, but looking at some of the old photo's though how much work would be needed?

https://m.facebook.com/IrishNavyPhotoSection/photos/old-photos-of-haulbowline/10151521115695944/

roadmaster

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119064422#Comment_119064422

I suppouse in reality not a hugh amout.

1. Extent it 20 meters would take only a few weeks digging and pour the RC walls.

2. A good clean out another few weeks

3. Order new gates and fit ( No Idea)

4. Errect a portal frame with the bottom in precast panels and the rest of the walls and roof cladded would take less than six weeks

5. Ancillary services such electrics and maybe gantry crane up to 12 months from what i hear for ordering

So in all for a vital piece of state infastructure not to long or two costly

ancientmariner

Drydock is at least 180metres by 28metres. Big job is clean out, as there are underwater work spaces on the western wall. Install pumping and electrics. Cover it in and provide offices as necessary. Chase up a spare gate at Chatham and build a couple with pumpng and flooding. 50 bodies at 50,000 pa plus the same for materials, and 100% over cost. maybe 10m euro. With another 175 years of availability etc.. It was working when we got it. By the way, moving gates etc the DOD got rid of most miscellaneous work craft. Need a couple of tugs for moving ships and gates.

Widdensushi

Honestly the size of ship ye are talking about is not realistic, ye are talking about something 2 or 3 times the size of the Russian navy ship that was on fire last week, too big for the dock!!! I have been drydocked there and it's massive, the amount of fuel and maintenance that would go in to something like that would crazy, something, even something the size of the admiral makerhov is ambitious.

Gary kk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119065129#Comment_119065129

But like what about the new Irish carrier group? It needs proper facilities

roadmaster

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119065353#Comment_119065353

Dont worry when Mary Lou & Co get in we will have H&W yards available to the state

ancientmariner

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119065129#Comment_119065129

What size ship do you glean from defence submissions. AFAIK it is to be about 130m and less than 10,000tonnes . it will fit in both Cork and Haulbowline docks, if the latter were functional. Our problems nationally is NOT realising our potential needs and cataloguing remedies. For instance the two refurbished ships from the New Zealand navy are to be based on the east coast. Some said Dunlaoghaire and I thought it was doable, as when I was I/C naval Reserve we had the Coastguard cottages for support, and they could be developed as a Naval depot and support facility with a flotilla O i/c. However it was given away and now it will be social housing, meaning a more difficult relocation process for the State. Expedient decisions for political reasons tend to turn up a witches brew and inflicts collateral damage for years to come. By the way the Moskava had dimensions of 186m X 21.5m X7.6m full load 11,200 tonnes, driven by by 88,000 H.P.

Widdensushi

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119065731#Comment_119065731

So rounded down 5500 litres an hour, 132000 litres for 24 hours, 924000 litres for 7 days of running at a high speed for propulsion engines alone, round it up to the million for all the auxiliaries etc, no wonder the carbon tax is going up, we will have close factories and farms to meet our emissions targets.

Dohvolle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119065783#Comment_119065783

Are you using it in engines, or are you using it to kill weeds?

Modern naval vessels are using what is basically hybrid propulsion.

ancientmariner

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119065783#Comment_119065783

What have those figures to do with our MRV. The HP for our ship won't be more than 20,000HP. I'm not an Engineer but we will never have ships that burn 5.5 tonnes per hour. The Peacocks with 14,000 hp, had a range of 2500nm at 17kts. If your saying you need a capacity of 924 tonnes of fuel for 7 day range/running then such a ship is impractical. Perhaps a ship around 8000 tonnes at 21 knots might do it at 50 tonnes per day. The Eithne did it around 14 tonnes per day at 16knots. Naval vessels only use full power in emergency situations.

Dohvolle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119065041#Comment_119065041

It would be easier (and possibly cheaper) to purchase a suitably large floating dock, and berth it either where there used to be floating docks in Rushbrooke (before the big one was sold and the smaller one scrapped) or on a suitable spot on the west of the Island, away from the channel. By using PPP, DSG would have plenty of work for it when the NS are not using it. You'd be surprised how many ships encounter mechanical troubles off our coast, head to the Dockyard for a quick fix, then to one of the Yards in NL or Germany for a permanent repair.

We have the space and depth for one of these still. With the potential offshore renewable industry uses, it would have paid for itself in no time.

Larbre34

Ah, I dunno. With a floating dock, you have to deal with degradation of the entire structure over time, failures and impact damage are also much more disruptive and costly.

Either expand or new build a concrete dock and as has been mentioned, you'll get 150 good years out of it, at far less of a whole life cost.

Dohvolle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119066569#Comment_119066569

Expanding the Dock in Haulbowline would face huge difficulties, due to its design & Construction. Its limestone block, with a paved limestone block floor. The sides are stepped for bracing of ships sides.

It of course was designed with wooden hulled ships in mind, at a push, sail powered Ironclads.

Ancientmariner may know more here, but one of the other problems with the drydock in Rusbrooke, owned now by DSG, it it's alignment into the channel. It's quite a struggle, at high tide to get a ship in or out, due to the wild currents at the point.

A NE/SW alignment instead, opening into Monkstown bay may be a better arrangement, but this of course would be down to the current owners.

sparky42

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119067001#Comment_119067001

Isn’t there a photo of one of the Pre Dreadnought battleships using the dock or the Basin?

Larbre34

Why is there an obligation to use the Cork Dockyard?

Is there some legal or contractual impediment to reclaiming the large dock at Position X or excavating a new drydock at, say, Position Y?

sparky42

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119067312#Comment_119067312

The dock at X has already been discussed, as for the suggestion of Y, is there anymore leftovers of Steel that could cause an issue?

Dohvolle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119067200#Comment_119067200

Yes,

HMS Howe,(1885) which would have been Guardship at Cork harbour until 1901. 99.1m LOA and 20m beam.

May also be HMS Empress of India, which replaced Howe. Similar steps on the sides, but taken from the other end of the dock perhaps? I do believe though that there is an essentially identical dock in Devonport, and it cost them Stg£10m to recondition the Caisson and get it operational again, at least 2 decades ago.

Larbre34

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119067340#Comment_119067340

Can't see why, that locale has been stone and concrete construction for centuries,set apart from Irish Steel. Yes, there would have to be a standard pre-construction decontamination and prep for sure, but I can't see there being any be particular nasties down deep.

sparky42

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119067349#Comment_119067349

If that’s the case, go talk to the RN and the contractors that did the job, even with inflation couldn’t be more than €25 million to reinstate the dock if that was the case?

Dohvolle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119067340#Comment_119067340

Position Y sits on what was the first dumping ground of Slag from the company that became Irish Steel. In the early 70s a new Steel mill was constructed over it. Pre 1930s there was a river/canal separating the Basin from the rest of the island. You can still see some of the pools, which are full of a combination of toxic sludge and rainwater.

The Quayside that sits under the top of the Y has just been repaired and is now fit to be used as a berth for any ship waiting to leave or enter the basin. Previously they would have had to wait at anchor until tugs became available if the Oil Wharf was occupied. (it usually is)or use the Deepwater berth in cobh, these days normally occupied by luxury cruise liners.

ancientmariner

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119067349#Comment_119067349

My advice is keep it simple and see if the naval drydock can be reinstated as it is more than adequate for our uses. The dock will need the two "V" shaped berthing sponsons removed and the miscellaneous boats relocated. The derelict original gate also needs removal and replaced with two viable gates. The land westwards of the west wall may be useful, after survey, for building on, or storing Mil goods in transit. The major conundrum is to find some where to moor vessels at dedicated waiting berths rather than occupying dockyard repair berthage. That problem plus the necessity for any navy to have dispersal berthage available in time of emergency. All naval berths need to be dedicated and fitted with FW and power supply and an amount of off ship storage. Ideally we need a base on each coast East, South, and West. The Cork dockyard can be used provided use is made of local knowledge and the navy adds some tugs to it's inventory.

Dohvolle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119067436#Comment_119067436

You'd be wrong there ted. Some of the more nasty nasties were found in the rainwater ponds. In short, it'll cost you. HOWEVER. If you wanted to go down that particular route, a syncrolift may be an option. Get the whole thing up out of the water, tow/drive it all back to a hard stand to do any work required.

Then have your work area covered. Align it W-E to keep it out of the channel. About as maintenance intensive as your average heavy crane.

Larbre34

Very interesting information Dohvolle.

I daresay half the people who are cobbling together spending plans for LoA 2.5 actually haven't a clue about these impediments and other such level of detail throughout the DF.

Dohvolle

There is no LOA 2.5.

LOA 2 is already well costed and can be found in the Appendix of the CoDF.

Larbre34

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119067836#Comment_119067836

I'm using the colloquialism that has been mentioned here and in some media reports, regarding the speculation that Simon Coveney will bring a spending proposal to Cabinet next month, that exceeds the recommendation of the Commission under Appendix LoA 2, by cherry picking some elements of Appendix LoA 3 and bring referred to informally as LoA 2.5.

Dohvolle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119068286#Comment_119068286

I have seen nothing mentioned officially that isn't in LOA2.

jonnybigwallet

Me neither Doh. N'er a mention of fast jets or a firm committment to a half decent flagship. Not to mention the strategy to persuade 3000 people to join up, or any significant upgrades to infrastructure at Haulbowline as discussed here recently....