3 New Navy Vessels for Irish Naval Service

sparky42

IrishTrajan wrote: »

You know what's even more brutal? The British Govt.'s new OPV, the River-class is supposed to cost £350 (€470) million for 3 ships, that aren't even that much better than the Beckett.

The Beckett-class cost a third of that.

As I've said, the UK had to pay BAE that sum of money. It didn't matter what if anything they got out of it, they were contractually obligated to pay it. It should have been to start the Type 26 but there seems to be a significant problem with the sign off on the design, therefore the UK said well build us something instead (as politically paying the money for nothing would be difficult), hence the River B2's.

Markcheese

Are the new rivers built to commercial standards ( like the beckets and last rivers ) ?
Will that make much difference to the service life of the ships ? Will it be 35 years odd before the beckets are considered for retirement ?

sparky42

Markcheese wrote: »

Are the new rivers built to commercial standards ( like the beckets and last rivers ) ?
Will that make much difference to the service life of the ships ? Will it be 35 years odd before the beckets are considered for retirement ?

I think the previous batch and the new batch are built to more naval standards than the Becketts are. I'd also guess the life span of the Rivers will be more budget related than operationally limited. There's still a question of whether they can find budget/manpower to keep both batches in service, and since it looks like the MOD is facing more cuts in the next review this year that's not likely to change.

BoJack Horseman

sparky42 wrote: »

Emer has been taken over by the Nigerian navy.

No, a Nigerian prince received an email telling him that he won LE Emer in a raffle.

He just needs to send his back details in a replied email he'll receive the ship asap!

sparky42

BoJack Horseman wrote: »

No, a Nigerian prince received an email telling him that he won LE Emer in a raffle.

He just needs to send his back details in a replied email he'll receive the ship asap!

Do we get the bank details?:D

Ren2k7

IrishTrajan wrote: »

I would disagree. It's easier for countries in the Mediterranean to provide already experienced sailors as part of an EBGF, rather than starting from scratch.

They could be permanently transferred to a Border Guards Force. A specialised agency of the EU, under its full control would work far better than the current mess of individual EU members responsible for their own sectors. Malta shouldn't be expected to patrol a vast chunk of the southern Med all on its own, we need to pool resources and work together on this. A proper EU border force to patrol the entire EU frontier is what's needed.

IrishTrajan wrote: »

Britain would also be quite like to block the proposal.

Balls to them. They do nothing but obstruct any attempt for Europe to come together. A EBGF could be created through the "enhanced cooperation" mechanism. This is how Schengen was established.

They should be encouraged to leave the EU and let them enjoy isolationism.

IrishTrajan

Ren2k7 wrote: »

They could be permanently transferred to a Border Guards Force. A specialised agency of the EU, under its full control would work far better than the current mess of individual EU members responsible for their own sectors. Malta shouldn't be expected to patrol a vast chunk of the southern Med all on its own, we need to pool resources and work together on this. A proper EU border force to patrol the entire EU frontier is what's needed.

Balls to them. They do nothing but obstruct any attempt for Europe to come together. A EBGF could be created through the "enhanced cooperation" mechanism. This is how Schengen was established.

They should be encouraged to leave the EU and let them enjoy isolationism.

What would Ireland's role be in this? We're not a part of the Schengen Area, we have a vested interest in Europe remaining stable and prosperous, but we also need to look at the humanitarian aspect. If these people are willing to risk death at sea, their country must be really terrible.

Ren2k7

IrishTrajan wrote: »

What would Ireland's role be in this? We're not a part of the Schengen Area, we have a vested interest in Europe remaining stable and prosperous, but we also need to look at the humanitarian aspect. If these people are willing to risk death at sea, their country must be really terrible.

This might sound callous and heartless BUT it's really not our problem. Any migrants trying to sail to Europe should not be allowed to land in any EU member state. If their ship starts to sink then naval vessels in the area should let them sink. With any luck it will encourage would-be migrants not to set sail on such dangerous boats.

And any migrant vessel that DOES make it to European waters should be boarded, its occupants brought aboard naval vessels and immediately repatriated back to Libya. The vessel should be sunk and those sailing it arrested and charged back in an EU state.

The recognised government of Libya also should be helped, with airstrikes on Islamist positions in the country.

Tabnabs

Ren2k7 wrote: »

This might sound callous and heartless BUT it's really not our problem. Any migrants trying to sail to Europe should not be allowed to land in any EU member state. If their ship starts to sink then naval vessels in the area should let them sink. With any luck it will encourage would-be migrants not to set sail on such dangerous boats.

And any migrant vessel that DOES make it to European waters should be boarded, its occupants brought aboard naval vessels and immediately repatriated back to Libya. The vessel should be sunk and those sailing it arrested and charged back in an EU state.

The recognised government of Libya also should be helped, with airstrikes on Islamist positions in the country.

Jesus you're a sick fcuk. Why don't you advocate the naval vessels commence firing and finish them off even quicker?!

Ren2k7

Tabnabs wrote: »

Jesus you're a sick fcuk.

Please keep it civil thanks.

Tabnabs wrote: »

Why don't you advocate the naval vessels commence firing and finish them off even quicker?!

No need. Just let nature take its course. If we continue rescuing sinking migrant vessels more and more will come. There should be a new rule in place, any migrant vessel in danger in international waters is not the concern of European naval patrols, who should stick to patrolling the EEZ of member states. Any migrant vessel WITHIN the exclusive economic zones of EU states SHOULD be rescued, the vessel sunk and their occupants placed aboard transporters and returned to Libya.

Tabnabs

Ren2k7 wrote: »

Please keep it civil thanks.

No need. Just let nature take its course. If we continue rescuing sinking migrant vessels more and more will come. There should be a new rule in place, any migrant vessel in danger in international waters is not the concern of European naval patrols, who should stick to patrolling the EEZ of member states. Any migrant vessel WITHIN the exclusive economic zones of EU states SHOULD be rescued, the vessel sunk and their occupants placed aboard transporters and returned to Libya.

Clue for the clueless -

Article 98
Duty to render assistance
1. Every State shall require the master of a ship flying its flag, in so far as he can do so without serious danger to the ship, the crew or the passengers:

to render assistance to any person found at sea in danger of being lost;
to proceed with all possible speed to the rescue of persons in distress, if informed of their need of assistance, in so far as such action may reasonably be expected of him;
after a collision, to render assistance to the other ship, its crew and its passengers and, where possible, to inform the other ship of the name of his own ship, its port of registry and the nearest port at which it will call.

2. Every coastal State shall promote the establishment, operation and maintenance of an adequate and effective search and rescue service regarding safety on and over the sea and, where circumstances so require, by way of mutual regional arrangements co-operate with neighbouring States for this purpose.

Convention on the Law of the Sea

sparky42

Ren2k7 wrote: »

No need. Just let nature take its course. If we continue rescuing sinking migrant vessels more and more will come. There should be a new rule in place, any migrant vessel in danger in international waters is not the concern of European naval patrols, who should stick to patrolling the EEZ of member states. Any migrant vessel WITHIN the exclusive economic zones of EU states SHOULD be rescued, the vessel sunk and their occupants placed aboard transporters and returned to Libya.

There's been what a thousand dead in the last week? They are going to keep coming even if we were shooting them as their countries are falling apart for many reasons.

Ren2k7

Tabnabs wrote: »

Clue for the clueless -

Article 98
Duty to render assistance
1. Every State shall require the master of a ship flying its flag, in so far as he can do so without serious danger to the ship, the crew or the passengers:

to render assistance to any person found at sea in danger of being lost;
to proceed with all possible speed to the rescue of persons in distress, if informed of their need of assistance, in so far as such action may reasonably be expected of him;
after a collision, to render assistance to the other ship, its crew and its passengers and, where possible, to inform the other ship of the name of his own ship, its port of registry and the nearest port at which it will call.

2. Every coastal State shall promote the establishment, operation and maintenance of an adequate and effective search and rescue service regarding safety on and over the sea and, where circumstances so require, by way of mutual regional arrangements co-operate with neighbouring States for this purpose.

Convention on the Law of the Sea

Yes, in their own territorial waters and EEZ. If they don't patrol waters outside their own EEZ they are under no obligation to render assistance.

And I've been quite courteous towards you up until now. As a mod I expect the same from you. Your choice.

Ren2k7

sparky42 wrote: »

There's been what a thousand dead in the last week? They are going to keep coming even if we were shooting them as their countries are falling apart for many reasons.

Well if they keep coming and sinking that's not our fault. If they get into trouble in the EEZ of EU members then they should be rescued. I've no issue with that. But outside that zone it's not our problem. Presumably though the lefty bleeding hearts believe we should patrol Libya's EEZ as well. :rolleyes:

Tabnabs

Ren2k7 wrote: »

Yes, in their own territorial waters and EEZ. If they don't patrol waters outside their own EEZ they are under no obligation to render assistance.

And I've been quite courteous towards you up until now. As a mod I expect the same from you. Your choice.

If you have a problem with my posts, report them.

"If their ship starts to sink then naval vessels in the area should let them sink. With any luck it will encourage would-be migrants not to set sail on such dangerous boats."

So, as explained clearly, that's illegal, as well as a disgusting attitude. It in no way deserves to go unchallenged.

The law clearly says shall, not may or should. Shall. Thankfully professional seafarers, both military and civilian, are a more humane and courageous breed than you could ever grasp.

Savage93

Morpheus wrote: »

were helping another EU country defend its borders and consequently the borders of europe, of which we are a part. unless you have your head buried in the sand, you may have noticed that isis is on the southern mediterranean coasts and a few hundred miles from europe.

Malta is a very small country with a small GDP and dependent on other countries to help them out and now we share interests in handling the refugee flow and humanitarian crisis along with the risk of ISIS from north africa and syria, we have very close military ties with them and their officer corps trains in the curragh with our own cadets.

Again I have no issues with helping another EU country in dealing with the huge refugee problems it faces purely because of it's geographical location. Aoife is not being given to Malta to help defend it's borders or the EU's borders from ISIS/ISIL ( you might want to take your head out of the sand and establish the facts before accusing me of having my head in the sand).

I am fully aware of the Irish/Maltese DF ties. I don't see any of the wealthy EU countries giving away ships to help anybody (the Germans gave the Maltese a few scrap East German vessels some years back). There are a considerable number of modern vessels belonging to several navies tied up for lack of budgets which could also go to the Maltese.

Don't pretend for one minute that Aoife can prevent the ISIS/ISIL situation deteriorating further.

sparky42

Ren2k7 wrote: »

Well if they keep coming and sinking that's not our fault. If they get into trouble in the EEZ of EU members then they should be rescued. I've no issue with that. But outside that zone it's not our problem. Presumably though the lefty bleeding hearts believe we should patrol Libya's EEZ as well. :rolleyes:

As has been pointed out, there's a legal requirement (leaving out the whole moral issue). As for Libya, France and the UK were leading forces in breaking the state, and then failed utterly in trying to stabilise it afterwards. If we are going to break nations we have to accept the repercussions.

cruasder777

sparky42 wrote: »

There's been what a thousand dead in the last week? They are going to keep coming even if we were shooting them as their countries are falling apart for many reasons.

They will keep coming en mass until there is security in Libya and Syria gets resolved.

cruasder777

sparky42 wrote: »

As has been pointed out, there's a legal requirement (leaving out the whole moral issue). As for Libya, France and the UK were leading forces in breaking the state, and then failed utterly in trying to stabilise it afterwards. If we are going to break nations we have to accept the repercussions.

I heard it stated that UK foreign office planning is now much poorer due to budget cuts, less experienced analysts etc. Its bizarre they dont plan any end game with destabalising regimes overseas.

They even got it totally wrong with Russia, not foreseeing the Ukraine problem.

sparky42

cruasder777 wrote: »

They will keep coming en mass until there is security in Libya and Syria gets resolved.

Exactly, and given the reality of ISIS it's not hard to understand why they will risk it even with the death toll. On the other hand, I have no idea why the Italian coastguard let the 4 armed smugglers get away this week?

cruasder777

The ships boarding parties will be badly limited by having no helo capability. Sea boarding parties face much greater danger when up against people with AK47s and boarding from the sea..

sparky42

cruasder777 wrote: »

I heard it stated that UK foreign office planning is now much poorer due to budget cuts, less experienced analysts etc. Its bizarre they dont plan any end game with destabalising regimes overseas.

They even got it totally wrong with Russia, not foreseeing the Ukraine problem.

I'm not even sure that's enough of an excuse, anyone could see what was going to happen in Libya, hell we've had decades of 24hr news channels showing us the operations from Iraq to the Balkans to demonstrate what was going to happen.

Cameron and Sarkozy between them and their staff should have had the two functioning brain cells to figure out what was going to result from their operations.

cruasder777

sparky42 wrote: »

I'm not even sure that's enough of an excuse, anyone could see what was going to happen in Libya, hell we've had decades of 24hr news channels showing us the operations from Iraq to the Balkans to demonstrate what was going to happen.

Cameron and Sarkozy between them and their staff should have had the two functioning brain cells to figure out what was going to result from their operations.

So how can they keep getting it so wrong ?

sparky42

cruasder777 wrote: »

The ships boarding parties will be badly limited by having no helo capability. Sea boarding parties face much greater danger when up against people with AK47s and boarding from the sea..

Which is why the Italian navy should still be doing the operations, AK47's tend to come off second best against 76mm plus weapons.

Ren2k7

Tabnabs wrote: »

If you have a problem with my posts, report them.

"If their ship starts to sink then naval vessels in the area should let them sink. With any luck it will encourage would-be migrants not to set sail on such dangerous boats."

So, as explained clearly, that's illegal, as well as a disgusting attitude. It in no way deserves to go unchallenged.

The law clearly says shall, not may or should. Shall. Thankfully professional seafarers, both military and civilian, are a more humane and courageous breed than you could ever grasp.

sparky42 wrote: »

As has been pointed out, there's a legal requirement (leaving out the whole moral issue). As for Libya, France and the UK were leading forces in breaking the state, and then failed utterly in trying to stabilise it afterwards. If we are going to break nations we have to accept the repercussions.

By both your logic Ireland is breaking international law for not picking up drowning migrants in the Med because it patrols the Atlantic. If EU navies aren't patrolling international waters outside exclusive economic zones HOW can they pick up sinking migrant vessels?

Savage93

Savage93 wrote: »

Again I have no issues with helping another EU country in dealing with the huge refugee problems it faces purely because of it's geographical location. Aoife is not being given to Malta to help defend it's borders or the EU's borders from ISIS/ISIL ( you might want to take your head out of the sand and establish the facts before accusing me of having my head in the sand).

I am fully aware of the Irish/Maltese DF ties. I don't see any of the wealthy EU countries giving away ships to help anybody (the Germans gave the Maltese a few scrap East German vessels some years back). There are a considerable number of modern vessels belonging to several navies tied up for lack of budgets which could also go to the Maltese.

Don't pretend for one minute that Aoife can prevent the ISIS/ISIL situation deteriorating further.

See today's Irish Examiner
WWW.irishexaminer.com/Ireland/malta-calls-navy-ship-gift-junk-313894.HTML
Any comments now Morpheus
The gist if it is that a Maltese navy source has said they don't need junk cluttering up their naval base and that Aoife is unfit for purpose.

IrishTrajan

Savage93 wrote: »

See today's Irish Examiner
WWW.irishexaminer.com/Ireland/malta-calls-navy-ship-gift-junk-313894.HTML
Any comments now Morpheus
The gist if it is that a Maltese navy source has said they don't need junk cluttering up their naval base and that Aoife is unfit for purpose.

Why don't we just sign a deal with them, saying we'll man Aoife and help with the migrant problem, in return for docking rights. It'll give the Naval Service some experience operating in calmer seas and with rescue operations, it will help foster better relations, and it'll give the Naval Service something to do aside from looking out at the bleak and dreary Atlantic seven days a week.

Savage93

IrishTrajan wrote: »

Why don't we just sign a deal with them, saying we'll man Aoife and help with the migrant problem, in return for docking rights. It'll give the Naval Service some experience operating in calmer seas and with rescue operations, it will help foster better relations, and it'll give the Naval Service something to do aside from looking out at the bleak and dreary Atlantic seven days a week.

I imagine the NS has neither the bodies to crew her nor the budget to run her in the Med. Crew changeover costs would be significant on a month on month off basis I'd imagine

sparky42

Savage93 wrote: »

I imagine the NS has neither the bodies to crew her nor the budget to run her in the Med. Crew changeover costs would be significant on a month on month off basis I'd imagine

Ah, think Ryanair does flights there now, dirt cheap. The main reason would be the politically inconvenient issue of us then having to take those that the Navy rescued. Not a great reason given the scale of the issues, but that's one of the reasons why the rest of the EU nations aren't doing much to aid the Southern nations.

IrishTrajan

Savage93 wrote: »

I imagine the NS has neither the bodies to crew her nor the budget to run her in the Med. Crew changeover costs would be significant on a month on month off basis I'd imagine

Month aboard a ship, month at port in Malta. You tell the Naval Service they get a month in Malta, and they'll probably cover the cost themselves!