3 New Navy Vessels for Irish Naval Service

sparky42

Heraldoffreeent wrote: »

Depends on price and seakeeping.

Wiki says the Indonesian Makasser (on which these are based ) cost about $45m, albeit in 2006, which sounds pretty good.

However, the Eithne replacement is being touted as "Frigate sized" or "Frigate like" and this is an LPD. It seems to be capable of moving 500 pax, which maybe more than we need, 200 I think was the number mentioned for the EPV.

Also, we need to remember that the ship planned will spend at least 80% of its life patrolling up to 200 miles out in the North Atlantic, I'm not sure that this ship[(similar to the HMNZS Cant) would fare well out there.

That's the main thing, whatever replaces Eithne is going to be spending the majority of her time doing pretty much the same as the rest of the fleet, just with the capabilities to do a lot more when needed. Unless our defence policies were radically changed Med patrols or African Piracy patrols are going to be the outer limit. And for that an LPD while used by the Navies that have them to "spare" are good for the job, for us I still something like the Absalon would be the better choice.

And yeah I can't see us going outside Europe.

BoJack Horseman

Those 'Makasser' class ships are probably the cheapest LPDs you can buy.
Built in S Korea @€;45m a pop.

But at 11,000 tonnes, too big for us.

I imagine the support vessel (if it ever happens, it will be 4-6,000 tonnes).

Heraldoffreeent

sparky42 wrote: »

That's the main thing, whatever replaces Eithne is going to be spending the majority of her time doing pretty much the same as the rest of the fleet, just with the capabilities to do a lot more when needed. Unless our defence policies were radically changed Med patrols or African Piracy patrols are going to be the outer limit. And for that an LPD while used by the Navies that have them to "spare" are good for the job, for us I still something like the Absalon would be the better choice.

And yeah I can't see us going outside Europe.

Absalon would be a superb buy.
Pricewise it may be well outside the €150m supposedly mentioned in the WP.

sparky42

Heraldoffreeent wrote: »

Absalon would be a superb buy.
Pricewise it may be well outside the €150m supposedly mentioned in the WP.

Yeah sadly it would be but it would be a perfect fit for us if there was will/foresight. We could buy it barebones to fit with the PANA idiots and if we moved to a more reasonable defence policy/strategy we could upgun it with the modules/weapons.

sparky42

BoJack Horseman wrote: »

Those 'Makasser' class ships are probably the cheapest LPDs you can buy.
Built in S Korea @€;45m a pop.

But at 11,000 tonnes, too big for us.

I imagine the support vessel (if it ever happens, it will be 4-6,000 tonnes).

IF and I say IF we were ever looking at a LPD I'd look at the Singaporean Endurance class instead, smaller crew, smaller size and just small enough to fit into Cobh.

But again I don't see us going that way.

Heraldoffreeent

sparky42 wrote: »

Yeah sadly it would be but it would be a perfect fit for us if there was will/foresight. We could buy it barebones to fit with the PANA idiots and if we moved to a more reasonable defence policy/strategy we could upgun it with the modules/weapons.

I wonder what the Barebones fit would cost?

sparky42

Heraldoffreeent wrote: »

I wonder what the Barebones fit would cost?

Wiki says $225 million in 2004, from memory I think the Danes had the "cheap" hll work done in Poland and only did the more expensive "Value Added" stuff like the Radar fit out at home. Somehow I get the feeling with inflation and the gap of time it would end up being at least 250 million.

Again more than the WP suggests we pay for it but it would be the best option for us I think.

Heraldoffreeent

sparky42 wrote: »

Wiki says $225 million in 2004, from memory I think the Danes had the "cheap" hll work done in Poland and only did the more expensive "Value Added" stuff like the Radar fit out at home. Somehow I get the feeling with inflation and the gap of time it would end up being at least 250 million.

Again more than the WP suggests we pay for it but it would be the best option for us I think.

Yeah, I'd say despite recessions etc, you're probably looking even closer to $300.

Fine ship though, would fit in very well.

Larbre34

Costs are hard to compare. Sure, we might end up with one or even two 140m ocean going helicopter capable support ships, but we can probably leave out the cost of the harpoons, the SAMs, the torpedoes, the goalkeeper, the countermeasures and the advanced fire control system.

Its basically a grey car ferry with an OTO Melara.

nowecant

Has anybody else looked at the Spanish Buque de Acción Marítima class? They are a customisable OPV which could suit as replacements for the Peacock class.

Obviously I would love to see an Absalon type EPV.

Are there any other realistic contenders?

Heraldoffreeent

Larbre34 wrote: »

Costs are hard to compare. Sure, we might end up with one or even two 140m ocean going helicopter capable support ships, but we can probably leave out the cost of the harpoons, the SAMs, the torpedoes, the goalkeeper, the countermeasures and the advanced fire control system.

Its basically a grey car ferry with an OTO Melara.

Still though, it would be built to Military spec, with the possibility to be fitted for, but not with.

I'd imagine buying cwis/ASM/AAM on a piecemeal basis could be only justified on a mission specific basis, kinda similar to how the Javelins were bought.

One of the flaws I saw in sending one of the ships to the Piracy mission would have been the limited self defence capability, hard to see the 20mm or machineguns dealing with an RPG, sure you could blow the skiff out of the water aftwerwards, but an Igla or something could still do serious damage.

sparky42

nowecant wrote: »

Has anybody else looked at the Spanish Buque de Acción Marítima class? They are a customisable OPV which could suit as replacements for the Peacock class.

Obviously I would love to see an Absalon type EPV.

Are there any other realistic contenders?

The BAM's are Pricey though, you are talking the EPV budget for one of them (though serioursly I don't see the "Frigate" coming in at 150 million anyway), without the features of what has been touted for the EPV

sparky42

Heraldoffreeent wrote: »

Still though, it would be built to Military spec, with the possibility to be fitted for, but not with.

I'd imagine buying cwis/ASM/AAM on a piecemeal basis could be only justified on a mission specific basis, kinda similar to how the Javelins were bought.

One of the flaws I saw in sending one of the ships to the Piracy mission would have been the limited self defence capability, hard to see the 20mm or machineguns dealing with an RPG, sure you could blow the skiff out of the water aftwerwards, but an Igla or something could still do serious damage.

In terms of the Piracy patrol, think by and large the response from the pirates has always been surrender when confronted with anything military, even suly ships have captured some pirates.

Also not sure how effective CWIS would be for RPG's to be honest, think it would be more standard to use the RIB's to make the intercept at range.

mikeym

We need ships that work not crap from Appledore.

You dont buy a new car from the showroom and drive it out only to have engine trouble.

Heraldoffreeent

mikeym wrote: »

We need ships that work not crap from Appledore.

You dont buy a new car from the showroom and drive it out only to have engine trouble.

Modern cars are not once off, practically hand built though. Two months delay in a ship that will be expected to be in use for 35 years is acceptable.

Look at the F35................

sparky42

Heraldoffreeent wrote: »

Modern cars are not once off, practically hand built though. Two months delay in a ship that will be expected to be in use for 35 years is acceptable.

Look at the F35................

Or look at the USN San Antiono class, the first units were EPIC disasters in Quality control, engine break downs were the least of the problems, with the USN Admirals admitting that they should never have accepted them as they were.

Or one of the LCS variants that a decade on has yet to see a single operational deployment.

Or the US Coastguards fleet replacement program has had issues as well. The list of issues for ships is an extensive one to be honest.

Basically as you've said 2-3 months to fix a probelm before acceptance is something we can live with particularly as they were the ones that picked up the costs.

Boreas

nowecant wrote: »

Has anybody else looked at the Spanish Buque de Acción Marítima class? They are a customisable OPV which could suit as replacements for the Peacock class.

Obviously I would love to see an Absalon type EPV.

Are there any other realistic contenders?

At the risk of sounding like a broken record perhaps the Transport/Logistic version of the Damen Crossover?

131 metres
5500 tonnes
56 crew (excl. flight crew)
200 passengers

I know it's an as yet unbuilt design but Damen have a long history. I have no idea what the price would be but they do offer a choice of naval, commercial, or mixed standards.

sparky42

Boreas wrote: »

At the risk of sounding like a broken record perhaps the Transport/Logistic version of the Damen Crossover?

131 metres
5500 tonnes
56 crew (excl. flight crew)
200 passengers

I know it's an as yet unbuilt design but Damen have a long history. I have no idea what the price would be but they do offer a choice of naval, commercial, or mixed standards.

I think it would be a better potential idea than a BAM, and yeah Damen has plenty of history with designs and value for money.

roundymac

Does it have to be new, is there anything out there that can be got second hand?

sparky42

roundymac wrote: »

Does it have to be new, is there anything out there that can be got second hand?

I hope that we've moved beyond second hand, lets be honest plenty of nations have gotten a "bargin" that turned out to be a lemon (U class, that Amphib the RN sold to Australia).

Besides which I don't think there's much on the market.

BoJack Horseman

We just missed out on the last of the French "Foudre" class ships..... sold last week to the Brazilian navy.

Of course, way too big for Ireland....

And of course, if we wanted a spare Mistral class ship, France might be able to do a deal.
They have the odd one spare & may knock a few euro off it as everything on the ship is in Russian.

BoJack Horseman

Boreas wrote: »

At the risk of sounding like a broken record....

Not at all.... I hope someone from the DoD reads these pages...

Looking at the vessel brochure, they are very versatile:
Disaster relief
Anti Piracy
Troop transport
supply/vehicle transport
uav deployment
Mobile hospital

fun for the whole family.

sparky42

BoJack Horseman wrote: »

We just missed out on the last of the French "Foudre" class ships..... sold last week to the Brazilian navy.

Of course, way too big for Ireland....

And of course, if we wanted a spare Mistral class ship, France might be able to do a deal.
They have the odd one spare & may knock a few euro off it as everything on the ship is in Russian.

Also even for a bargin a 25 year old ship wouldn't be ideal IMO. I mean she's seen plenty of usage already.

As for the Mistral's I still wonder whose actually going to buy the Mistral's, if NATO was smart they'd buy them and run them like the joint programs like the C 17's.

BoJack Horseman

sparky42 wrote: »

As for the Mistral's I still wonder whose actually going to buy the Mistral's, if NATO was smart they'd buy them and run them like the joint programs like the C 17's.

Canada should take one, as apparently they are arctic hardened & Canada has been kicking around the idea of an amphib for a while.

Reading into how Canada does its procurement though, this idea is far too simple... they seem to screw up quite a bit.

sparky42

BoJack Horseman wrote: »

Canada should take one, as apparently they are arctic hardened & Canada has been kicking around the idea of an amphib for a while.

Reading into how Canada does its procurement though, this idea is far too simple... they seem to screw up quite a bit.

Yeah they do seem to be gifted at screwing up procurement alright, I mean those subs are just an epic disaster.

Also I'd bet the domestic political fallout might be fairly bad as well I'd bet.

Tabnabs

What about the smaller sister of the Absalon Class, the Knud Rasmussen Class?

Price tag of about €80m. Similar dimensions to Eithne, but a much smaller crew required. Which, I understand, might be a useful option.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bC2XIGMI2kM

sparky42

Tabnabs wrote: »

What about the smaller sister of the Absalon Class, the Knud Rasmussen Class?

Price tag of about €80m. Similar dimensions to Eithne, but a much smaller crew required. Which, I understand, might be a useful option.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bC2XIGMI2kM

It doesn't have a hangar facility, so for med/piracy patrols that would be of limited value imo. Also wouldn't be able to do the army move,ent that was meant to be part of the EPV

roadmaster

i don't want to start a new thread but this seams to be the place to post my comments, I don't think what I am going to say is security sensitive as the info is the public an easily got. But anyway I was in cork at the weekend and visited spike island which included a boat ride around the naval base, when I seen 5 ships parked up out of seven which means one in the med and only one at sea patrolling our seas which was of the coast of Kerry doing SAR ( this was on the radio). I would always stand up for the defence forces when people slag them so I was shocked to hear the Irish tourists on the boat singing the Dubliners song the Irish navy cause like the song suggests the boats where not at sea. I have no naval background so maybe there was a valid reason for basically the entire fleet parked up, but for a joe public point of view it looks terrible and make you question if there is a need for more ships or investment , again as I said I have no naval background as must of the public don't but the optics looked bad and the government usually go it what the public want and that is not a great advertisement to the public. if anyone would like to put me straight please do

mikeym

roadmaster wrote: »

i don't want to start a new thread but this seams to be the place to post my comments, I don't think what I am going to say is security sensitive as the info is the public an easily got. But anyway I was in cork at the weekend and visited spike island which included a boat ride around the naval base, when I seen 5 ships parked up out of seven which means one in the med and only one at sea patrolling our seas which was of the coast of Kerry doing SAR ( this was on the radio). I would always stand up for the defence forces when people slag them so I was shocked to hear the Irish tourists on the boat singing the Dubliners song the Irish navy cause like the song suggests the boats where not at sea. I have no naval background so maybe there was a valid reason for basically the entire fleet parked up, but for a joe public point of view it looks terrible and make you question if there is a need for more ships or investment , again as I said I have no naval background as must of the public don't but the optics looked bad and the government usually go it what the public want and that is not a great advertisement to the public. if anyone would like to put me straight please do

I agree all 8 ships should be always at sea.

Sure shaft the officers and the men.

I suppose whoever made out the patrol plan for 2015 didnt take into account about the Refugee Crisis in the Mediterranean and the delay of the Joyce which could screw up the sea rotation.

As far as I know the Niamh is getting relieved by another ship in September and that ship is in the Dockyard.

It annoys the hell out of me when people sing ancient songs about the sailors coming home for tea. A lot has changed since then.

roadmaster

No need to be sarcastic , but you expect more than two ships to be at seat