3 New Navy Vessels for Irish Naval Service

Heraldoffreeent · 26-11-2015 5:33pm

sparky42 wrote: »

I'd agree with that, and I would hope the NS would be smart enough to loudly and repeatedly point out the sea states in the North Atlantic. Given the P60 design is I think the largest of the design, I wonder how feasiable/costly would it be to enlarge it any more versus something like a barebones Absalon.

Yeah, probably not much upside there anymore without a major redesign. The other option would be a cut and shut Meko.

sparky42 · 26-11-2015 5:41pm

Heraldoffreeent wrote: »

Yeah, probably not much upside there anymore without a major redesign. The other option would be a cut and shut Meko.

In terms of the P60's particularly if you are talking about operating something 139 or larger off of it in mid Atlantic conditions.

Well the Meko's have given great service in many different variants, but I would prefer if we didn't go down the route of being a "launch customer" for the variation.

Though I wonder with the low costs that the Asian yards are getting to, whether something from there would be a better option, or buy a licence of something like Absalon and get them to build it.

Heraldoffreeent · 26-11-2015 5:50pm

sparky42 wrote: »

In terms of the P60's particularly if you are talking about operating something 139 or larger off of it in mid Atlantic conditions.

Well the Meko's have given great service in many different variants, but I would prefer if we didn't go down the route of being a "launch customer" for the variation.

Though I wonder with the low costs that the Asian yards are getting to, whether something from there would be a better option, or buy a licence of something like Absalon and get them to build it.

Yeah, there seems to be good value to be had from South Korea etc, and also even China, the Nigerians took delivery of a patrol frigate from China recently, which seemed good value.

However it strikes me that the DOD like to have "western" logs chains in place, I suppose if anything ever kicked off with China/Russia etc, we'd be exposed, being embedded in the western sphere, hence Sweden/Italy/US/uk being the prime suppliers.

sparky42 · 26-11-2015 6:05pm

Heraldoffreeent wrote: »

Yeah, there seems to be good value to be had from South Korea etc, and also even China, the Nigerians took delivery of a patrol frigate from China recently, which seemed good value.

However it strikes me that the DOD like to have "western" logs chains in place, I suppose if anything ever kicked off with China/Russia etc, we'd be exposed, being embedded in the western sphere, hence Sweden/Italy/US/uk being the prime suppliers.

I'd agree that with potential issues Russia/China is out (Russia more than China for obivious reasons, not too mention Russia's current issues like the fact they have to flog 3 new Frigates as they can't get engines for them (Vlad didn't think his invasion through)).

South Korea (or Singapore) on the other hand would have NATO standard fittings anyway I'd bet. But we could always just do what some of the others are doing now, building the "low tech" work in cheap Eastern European nations and then getting the expensive "High Tech" in a Western European nation, if an Asian option wasn't on the table.

Really whatever would get us the spec for the best value on time IMO.

Boreas · 05-12-2015 10:53pm

I don't suppose there's any scenario in which the Eithne gets replaced by something like the Enforcer 7000 it would give a large range of options for humanitarian missions, UN missions etc. and a much better platform for helicopter operations if they are ever reinstated.

Perhaps if the Peacocks were replaced by something like the UK Border Force Cutters, if a shallow draught replacement is needed, it could fit in the budget.

sparky42 · 05-12-2015 11:03pm

Boreas wrote: »

I don't suppose there's any scenario in which the Eithne gets replaced by something like the Enforcer 7000 it would give a large range of options for humanitarian missions, UN missions etc. and a much better platform for helicopter operations if they are ever reinstated.

Perhaps if the Peacocks were replaced by something like the UK Border Force Cutters, if a shallow draught replacement is needed, it could fit in the budget.

An LHD/LPD? Why Eithne is a patrol ship, the Enforcers are for expeditionary deployments, short of having it permantly deployed out of Irish waters, the vast majority of its capabilities would be wasted (deploying it for international operations could be argued but would require a massive change in both planning/operations/public views,and would still leave a gap at home). Being able to operate helicopters doesn't need an LHD/LPD, hell a Holland Class OPV could easily regenerate that capability (for example an Enforcer could take the majority of the 139's just by itself). There's also the fact that such a ship would require new Graving Dock I think given it's beam or have it's work done outside the state.

Also I'm not sure how something like the Cutters would be much use in the weather we get, hell the Peacocks are marginal enough as is.

Markcheese · 07-12-2015 2:03am

Whats the biggest we could/ should go for a multi -purpose patrol vessel. ??
( assume the dry dock size would have a lot of bearing )
Also does anyone know how many miles the customs service clocks up yearly with its 2 cutters ? They both seem to be in kinsale when ever I pass... often thought they should be part of the naval service ...

Peregrine · 07-12-2015 2:14am

Markcheese wrote: »

Also does anyone know how many miles the coastguard clocks up yearly with its 2 cutters ? They both seem to be in kinsale when ever I pass... often thought they should be part of the naval service ...

What cutters?

Markcheese · 07-12-2015 2:29am

Peregrine wrote:

What cutters?

My balls up , meant customs service ...

BoJack Horseman · 07-12-2015 11:13am

Markcheese wrote: »

Whats the biggest we could/ should go for a multi -purpose patrol vessel. ??
( assume the dry dock size would have a lot of bearing )

I guess that depends on what the oddly shaped Haulbowline can accommodate.

The Absalon class is 137m long
The Damen Crossovers range from 115m to 130m
The Meko-200 MRV is around 120m-130m.

Do, either way, much longer than the current patrol vessels, the longest being 90m.

Tabnabs · 07-12-2015 12:11pm

Peregrine wrote: »

What cutters?

RCC 'Faire' and RCC 'Suirbhéir'

Markcheese · 07-12-2015 12:30pm

BoJack Horseman wrote:

The Absalon class is 137m long The Damen Crossovers range from 115m to 130m The Meko-200 MRV is around 120m-130m.

I guess fuel and running costs will go up in line with size....
But what about sea keeping ? Wouldnt really want a really flexible tub that couldnt handle high seas

BoJack Horseman · 07-12-2015 1:51pm

Markcheese wrote: »

I guess fuel and running costs will go up in line with size....
But what about sea keeping ? Wouldnt really want a really flexible tub that couldnt handle high seas

One assumes they all can!

A Dutch, Danish & German shipyard would be quite familiar with building vessels ready for the rigours of European seas..... I know the 2 x Absalon vessels have been on trips to Greenland several times.

sparky42 · 07-12-2015 2:22pm

BoJack Horseman wrote: »

I guess that depends on what the oddly shaped Haulbowline can accommodate.

The Absalon class is 137m long
The Damen Crossovers range from 115m to 130m
The Meko-200 MRV is around 120m-130m.

Do, either way, much longer than the current patrol vessels, the longest being 90m.

It's more beam than length, the Cobh Dockyard is only 21m wide at the gate, and 22m inside, the length is 165m.

sparky42 · 07-12-2015 2:23pm

BoJack Horseman wrote: »

One assumes they all can!

A Dutch, Danish & German shipyard would be quite familiar with building vessels ready for the rigours of European seas..... I know the 2 x Absalon vessels have been on trips to Greenland several times.

Yeah I'd be really surprised if any of those designs had sea keeping issues to be honest.

BoJack Horseman · 07-12-2015 2:31pm

sparky42 wrote: »

It's more beam than length, the Cobh Dockyard is only 21m wide at the gate, and 22m inside, the length is 165m.

the Damen's & the Absalons are 19.5m wide..

So..... a tight fit!

sparky42 · 07-12-2015 2:47pm

BoJack Horseman wrote: »

the Damen's & the Absalons are 19.5m wide..

So..... a tight fit!

Yeah, that's the major issue, even after it gets in, setting up scaffolding and the likes would be fairly difficult as well, but doubt the budget would ever fit for replacing it.

Leonidas BL · 09-12-2015 1:08am

Ohhhhh I like those Damen Crossovers

Boreas · 11-12-2015 2:42pm

The Danish Absalon class has often been mentioned as a (fantasy?) ship for Irish service but I wonder if the older Thetis class would be more attainable?

The standard weapons, i.e. without additional StanFlex modules, are similar to what the NS ships have, and the 14.4m beam would address the size problem with Haulbowline. The doubled hull/ice breaking ability would be unwanted in Irish service which would presumably reduce the cost of the vessels. 60 days endurance would presumably be a positive.

Anyone have any idea if such a design could be resurrected?

Naval Technology

Wikipedia

BoJack Horseman · 11-12-2015 2:57pm

Boreas wrote: »

The Danish Absalon class has often been mentioned as a (fantasy?) ship for Irish service but I wonder if the older Thetis class would be more attainable?

The standard weapons, i.e. without additional StanFlex modules, are similar to what the NS ships have, and the 14.4m beam would address the size problem with Haulbowline. The doubled hull/ice breaking ability would be unwanted in Irish service which would presumably reduce the cost of the vessels. 60 days endurance would presumably be a positive.

Anyone have any idea if such a design could be resurrected?

The yard that made the Thetis is now closed..... not sure if it can be licensed elsewhere.

it will depend on the mission... to me the Thetis is just a big ice-crushing patrol boat.
So that suits fine for the Danish navy who have to busy themselves between Greenland & the Faroe Islands.
However in terms of what it can do, it's non-combat mission capabilities seem no different than a patrol boat half its displacement.

So, as an oversized OPV its fine... but aside from not needing replenishment for as long, what more would it offer Ireland.... seeing as it's stanflex & sonar would be redundant for us.

BoJack Horseman · 11-12-2015 3:37pm

Question on our OPVs armaments.

The 76 gun... why bother?
Has any ever been used in anger?

It would seem a good way to save space, cost (I assume they cost several million) & weight to not bother.

Wouldn't a bushmaster 30mm or 35mm gun provide all the lethality the NS could realistically need.

Boreas · 11-12-2015 7:06pm

BoJack Horseman wrote: »

The 76 gun... why bother?

I always got the impression it's main function is to act as a badge of authority, a bit like a sheriff's tin star.

sparky42 · 11-12-2015 7:23pm

BoJack Horseman wrote: »

Question on our OPVs armaments.

The 76 gun... why bother?
Has any ever been used in anger?

It would seem a good way to save space, cost (I assume they cost several million) & weight to not bother.

Wouldn't a bushmaster 30mm or 35mm gun provide all the lethality the NS could realistically need.

Considering that we buy them second hand, and with the USN's Frigates being decommissioned the 76mm aren't exactly hugely expensive. For the Beckett's for example it's only 5 million compared to 50 million for the hull, so I don't think its a massive expense.

I always presumed that we had gotten the 3 Eithne's that were once planned we most likely would have gone for the 57mm as the standard for the fleet, but once we went with the Peacock's it kind of made sense to go with the 76mm.

Since we don't have anything larger (which most of those who go with the 30-35mm have) I suppose it makes sense to go with the 76mm.

Larbre34 · 11-12-2015 10:48pm

Big Sam featured on the Prime Time special on the migrant crisis last night, its on the RTE player. Good insight into her kit, crew and operations

mikeym · 15-12-2015 8:00pm

Larbre34 wrote: »

Big Sam featured on the Prime Time special on the migrant crisis last night, its on the RTE player. Good insight into her kit, crew and operations

And shes back this week.

Fratton Fred · 16-12-2015 11:14am

Boreas wrote: »

I always got the impression it's main function is to act as a badge of authority, a bit like a sheriff's tin star.

Putting a shot across someone's bow from 10 km away tends to get a message over pretty effectively.

Boreas · 16-12-2015 2:10pm

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Putting a shot across someone's bow from 10 km away tends to get a message over pretty effectively.

That goes back to the original question;

BoJack Horseman wrote: »

Question on our OPVs armaments.

The 76 gun... why bother?
Has any ever been used in anger?

How often is a shot across the bow fired?

BTW I don't agree that the OPV's shouldn't have the 76mm guns, if anything I'd like to see the NS operate more fully armed vessels.

Fratton Fred · 16-12-2015 2:50pm

Boreas wrote: »

That goes back to the original question;

How often is a shot across the bow fired?

BTW I don't agree that the OPV's shouldn't have the 76mm guns, if anything I'd like to see the NS operate more fully armed vessels.

How often do the NS fire any of their guns? You could have the same discussion about buying new ships or even helicopters.

The threat is the main thing though.

Boreas · 16-12-2015 3:32pm

Fratton Fred wrote: »

How often do the NS fire any of their guns? You could have the same discussion about buying new ships or even helicopters.

The threat is the main thing though.

That was my point, the 76mm is a symbol of authority.

Boreas · 16-12-2015 9:48pm

Another ship that's probably outside of the NS budget https://ukdefencejournal.org.uk/could-this-be-britains-future-light-frigate/

3 New Navy Vessels for Irish Naval Service

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