3 New Navy Vessels for Irish Naval Service

BoJack Horseman

randy hickey wrote: »

With Brexit probably making the LÉ Amanda Brunker the last Irish Naval Vessel to be built in the UK

Wait.... what?

The Irish navy was the only thing keeping Appledore alive... and that is with the UK being in the EU....

So what would Brexit do again?

sparky42

randy hickey wrote: »

With Brexit probably making the LÉ Amanda Brunker the last Irish Naval Vessel to be built in the UK, what are our shipbuilding options going forward?

Which shipyards in the EU have the capability to deliver a similar vessel for the same (or less?) money?

A straight up OPV, I'd say any of the yards of the EU or further afield could do the job.

donvito99

The French build ships.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bâtiment_multi-mission

The B2M are designed for a range of low-intensity, high-endurance missions in the French EEZ, from bases in the Overseas collectivities.[1] As such, they feature a relatively low maximum speed of 12 to 15 knots, but are able to operate for 30 days without resupply,[16] and are designed for a high availability of 200 days at sea per year.[1] One of their main task is maritime law enforcement, particularly in the domain of commercial fishing and against illegal immigration, Drug trafficking and piracy.

The B2M provide a limited capability of power projection, as they can ferry a 20-man force, along with equipment and two vehicles

They carry an 8-metre boat and several rigid-hulled inflatable boats,[16] and can deploy frogmen as well as Remotely operated underwater vehicles.[1] The ship can also accommodate a medical team to be deployed during humanitarian emergencies

the B2M can develop a 30-tonne bollard pull and have extensive anti-fire capabilities.[1] They furthermore feature a crane capable of lifting 12 tonnes with a 14-metre reach, or 10 tonnes at 17 metres.[3] This allows autonomous loading and unloading of standard containers,[16] a useful capability for humanitarian operations in disaster areas

Designed to do what the NS does in NS seas 24/7. Also has a bollard pull, firefighting and humanitarian capability. Claims good availability and endurance.

sparky42

donvito99 wrote: »

The French build ships.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bâtiment_multi-mission



Designed to do what the NS does in NS seas 24/7. Also has a bollard pull, firefighting and humanitarian capability. Claims good availability and endurance.

Well slower than the NS hulls though.

donvito99

sparky42 wrote: »

Well slower than the NS hulls though.

True but speed is hardly of prime concern when inspecting fishing vessels, and this design is also more enduring (30 days as opposed to 21) than the present SB Class. It also has a lower complement than the SBs. This specialises in all the thing the NS does and wants to do, as well as being a pretty good platform and highly flexible.

sparky42

donvito99 wrote: »

True but speed is hardly of prime concern when inspecting fishing vessels, and this design is also more enduring (30 days as opposed to 21) than the present SB Class. It also has a lower complement than the SBs. This specialises in all the thing the NS does and wants to do, as well as being a pretty good platform and highly flexible.

Except for moving to areas of investigation at reasonable speeds, since the NS put so much thought and time into the SB design I would assume that their max speed is a feature the NS wants. Moreover given that B2M's are almost completely unarmed and the idea is for the NS to be able to undertake more complex missions (ie the EPV, or the Peacock replacements having some "Anti-IED" features) I don't see how they would fit in to the future planned hulls.

Heraldoffreeent

At 65m, that ship is too small for anything other than the CP role, and the Navy have been progressing to larger ships over the last 15-20 years.

In the main this is being driven by experience of the north Atlantic and its increasing sea states. The Indian ocean (Which seems to be the main AOO for these ships) is a world away from the North Atlantic in terms of conditions and sea states.

While there are quiet a few yards in Europe capable of building ships to our spec, it would be a case of the NS having a significant input into the design.

In the event we were to look at a sort of off the shelf design, matched with the requirement that the NS have at the moment for ships other than the CP replacement/MCMV, then the Damen Crossover, or one tailored to the NS, may be a suitable fit.

BoJack Horseman

Pretty nifty support vessel concept out of Poland.

Rather than just being about transport, it is a replenisher, all in a compact form

Length over all 116.36 meters;
Maximum Breadth 17.90 meters;
Displacement of 6,100 tons.

The vessel is able to navigate in moderate ice conditions and offers NBC (nuclear, biological, and chemical) protection to its crew of 60 sailors.

Some of the key attributes of the vessel (especially for a logistic support vessel) is that it features reduced thermal signature and reduced radar cross section. This is achieved in part thanks to the underway replenishment (UNREP) masts being sheltered inside the hull: When the vessel is not conducting UNREP opreations, the hull is completely flush. There are four masts for liquids and solid stores up to 1 ton and one more sheltered UNREP mast for liquids at the stern.

Final equipment fit depends on customer requirement, but based on the artist impression one may note that the vessel is fitted with:

- An I-MAST 400 integrated mast by Thales. This is the mast currently fitted aboard the Holland-class OPV. The mast gathers almost all the sensors fitted aboard the ship: Surface search radar, IFF system, Optronic system, Radar ESM and communication antennas.
- Two fire control radars.
- Two Rheinmetall Millennium 35mm CIWS fitted forward (as main gun) and aft (above the helicopter hangar).
- Four decoy launchers.
- Four 12.7mm machine gun mounts.
The vessel may also be fitted with an optional containerized towed sonar.

The cargo holds capacity consists in:
- 11x 20 feet containers in 2 holds
- 8x armored vehicles (Rosomak) or trucks in 2 holds (which may be loaded via a stern ramp)
- 6x containers with explosive goods in 3 holds

Tank cargo capacities:
- Navy fuel: 1500 t
- Helicopter fuel: 50t
- Fresh water: 200 t

The helicopter deck and hangar can accomodate a single 11 tons class helicopter.

All told, still probably out of our league, however its a nice concept that could find favour with small navys around the world.

sparky42

BoJack Horseman wrote: »

Pretty nifty support vessel concept out of Poland.

Rather than just being about transport, it is a replenisher, all in a compact form



All told, still probably out of our league, however its a nice concept that could find favour with small navys around the world.

Honestly without the I Mast I don't see anything that would be a show stopper in terms of buying and the only reason I say without the I Mast is it's cost alone. Which is basically "we don't want to spend that money", though the fact that it's only a proposal might hurt it as well (be interesting to see the price tag for it). It's small enough to fit into the Graving Dock for any work, the crew size isn't huge compared to the other hulls we have. While it may not meet the old "EPV" requirements, it would be a valuable addition to the fleet's capabilities I would think.

deRanged

new arrival this morning. Nice and shiny, just needs a few bits and pieces installed.

P63 LE William Butler Yeats

P63 LE William Butler Yeats

Markcheese

That came in quietly...??

sword1

Do the ribs look very prominent for a new vessel, what thickness steel would the hull be

sparky42

sword1 wrote: »

Do the ribs look very prominent for a new vessel, what thickness steel would the hull be

It seems to be the modern design feature, everything from the T45's, to the FREMM's, to the Absalons seem to have the same "Rib" look to them.

Brian Clowen

She looks just as good as her sisters. I cannot wait for two years time when we see LE Jonathan Swift sit at anchor in the lower harbour with the other three.

A 9 ship flotilla within 24 months what a fantastic step forward.

Could.well be joined by two Damen MRAV 3600 shortly afterwards, fingers crossed they will replace the peacocks.

Then who knows what the 120+ Eithne replacement will be.

mikeym

Brian Clowen wrote: »

She looks just as good as her sisters. I cannot wait for two years time when we see LE Jonathan Swift sit at anchor in the lower harbour with the other three.

A 9 ship flotilla within 24 months what a fantastic step forward.

Wouldnt a 9 ship flotilla put pressure on an already under strength naval service?

The government cant even afford to build a motorway from Ringaskiddy to the Bloomfield Interchange, how the hell can they justify a 9th ship.

Brian Clowen

mikeym wrote: »

Wouldnt a 9 ship flotilla put pressure on an already under strength naval service?

The government cant even afford to build a motorway from Ringaskiddy to the Bloomfield Interchange, how the hell can they justify a 9th ship.

Yes but it is happening anyways so they as well be looking at it than for it.

Heraldoffreeent

mikeym wrote: »

Wouldnt a 9 ship flotilla put pressure on an already under strength naval service?

The government cant even afford to build a motorway from Ringaskiddy to the Bloomfield Interchange, how the hell can they justify a 9th ship.

The new ships plus Niamh and Roisin have a compliment of 44 each (although this is 60 odd for the med deployments), the CP's 40 each, Eithne has a compliment of 85.

I'd presume that crew numbers would be reduced on the replacements for the CP's and Eithne due to technology etc, so that may be the thinking behind the feasibility of 9 ships on the current establishment.

In the whitepaper and PFG, and also in PQ's to the minister, the 9,500/1,094 numbers keep getting trotted out, so I'd imagine if an increase in numbers was being considered, it would be mooted in one of those fora.
Although, having said that, theres still plenty of time to do that in the run up to P31's eventual replacement coming on stream.

Todd Toddington III

deRanged wrote: »

new arrival this morning. Nice and shiny, just needs a few bits and pieces installed.

P63 LE William Butler Yeats

P63 LE William Butler Yeats

I see they've managed to install a clock tower in the 2nd pic. Deadly

sparky42

mikeym wrote: »

Wouldnt a 9 ship flotilla put pressure on an already under strength naval service?

The government cant even afford to build a motorway from Ringaskiddy to the Bloomfield Interchange, how the hell can they justify a 9th ship.

While there's certainly pressure on the service that need to be dealt with, we are talking about 2 years before P64, and most likely another year in working up.

Considering we are talking about an asset that will be going for 30-35 years and we are getting it for about 70 million I don't see anything to complain about, I mean hell just look through the earlier posts and the negativity about the chances of getting the option for the third let alone a fourth hull.

Larbre34

Someone might edit our long standing thread title to '4 New Navy Vessels etc..' Who ever thought we'd be saying that!

sparky42

Larbre34 wrote: »

Someone might edit our long standing thread title to '4 New Navy Vessels etc..' Who ever thought we'd be saying that!

Considering how many figured the chances of getting the 3 were slim...

sparky42

Well WBY commissioned today and Enda had this to say:

Plans for a new Naval Service ship which is equipped to provide full medical facilities at sea have been endorsed by Taoiseach Enda Kenny.

The White Paper on Defence promises a multi-purpose vessel equipped with a fully functioning hospital, Mr Kenny said in Galway docks on Monday.

This would allow medical personnel to serve in “war and conflict situations”, Mr Kenny said. He was speaking at the commissioning of the Naval Service’s latest new patrol ship, LÉ William Butler Yeats.

Mr Kenny said it was “his wish” that such a multi-purpose ship – still at pre-design stage – would be built to serve in humanitarian crises. It was in “keeping with our rich tradition of charity and volunteering”, he said.

Heraldoffreeent

sparky42 wrote: »

Well WBY commissioned today and Enda had this to say:

"In war and conflict situations", but probably not warring and conflicting.........

sparky42

Heraldoffreeent wrote: »

"In war and conflict situations", but probably not warring and conflicting.........

Oh hell no, do you think Finance is going to pay for all the shooty and protection hardware needed? However getting a 9th ship that is geared towards something more than EEZ work shouldn't be ignored.

Heraldoffreeent

sparky42 wrote: »

Oh hell no, do you think Finance is going to pay for all the shooty and protection hardware needed? However getting a 9th ship that is geared towards something more than EEZ work shouldn't be ignored.

Oh I agree, I can't wait to see the RFI/RFP/RFQ documentation though, a Multi-role Frigate sized Hospital Ship will be interesting to conceptualise.

Larbre34

Heraldoffreeent wrote: »

Oh I agree, I can't wait to see the RFI/RFP/RFQ documentation though, a Multi-role Frigate sized Hospital Ship will be interesting to conceptualise.

So long as they don't make the mistake of adopting a Ro-Ro ferry for ocean going work like the Kiwis did. Many a breakfast made a second appearance over that one.

Whatever they spec for, I'm suggesting L.É. Roddy Doyle!

sparky42

Larbre34 wrote: »

So long as they don't make the mistake of adopting a Ro-Ro ferry for ocean going work like the Kiwis did. Many a breakfast made a second appearance over that one.

Whatever they spec for, I'm suggesting L.É. Roddy Doyle!

Yeah they ****ed that one up, have their "fixes" actually worked or is she still a problem child?

In terms of names I'll go with my usual policy of I don't give a feck as long as it gets built.

Heraldoffreeent

Larbre34 wrote: »

So long as they don't make the mistake of adopting a Ro-Ro ferry for ocean going work like the Kiwis did. Many a breakfast made a second appearance over that one.

Whatever they spec for, I'm suggesting L.É. Roddy Doyle!

I'd say the Ferry idea is Kaput, lads in Hawlbowline would be putting the Kibosh on using that 200 miles closer to Canada.

It'll be interesting to see how far they're prepared to spread the net for builders. If they talk to HHI or Daewoo, there could be some interesting ideas coming back. The Philipines have two ships in progress at the moment, they're based on the Indonesian Makasser class.

If they stay more local, then the Meko or a Damen design would seem logical.

It'll be interesting to see if British yards have any Hope, especially with Brexit.

It wouldn't surprise me if the next ship is the Sean O'Casey, after that you're kinda running out of writers who have been sufficently dead for a long enough period, Wilde being already used.

So maybe we'll move on to Footballers, animated TV characters, or even ...............Nuns Ted!!

sparky42

Heraldoffreeent wrote: »

I'd say the Ferry idea is Kaput, lads in Hawlbowline would be putting the Kibosh on using that 200 miles closer to Canada.

It'll be interesting to see how far they're prepared to spread the net for builders. If they talk to HHI or Daewoo, there could be some interesting ideas coming back. The Philipines have two ships in progress at the moment, they're based on the Indonesian Makasser class.

If they stay more local, then the Meko or a Damen design would seem logical.

It'll be interesting to see if British yards have any Hope, especially with Brexit.

It wouldn't surprise me if the next ship is the Sean O'Casey, after that you're kinda running out of writers who have been sufficently dead for a long enough period, Wilde being already used.

So maybe we'll move on to Footballers, animated TV characters, or even ...............Nuns Ted!!

The Philippine design is just too wide for the Graving Dock, I doubt with the money restrictions they are going to want to go for redesigning it 2 foot smaller. Could be interesting to see what South Korea could come up with, or Singapore. But I'd say it's more likely to be a European design, in terms of British yards, do any of them have a COTS design ready to go?

If she's going to be designed for distant EEZ/Out of EEZ operations I'd go for Tom Crean to be honest.

Heraldoffreeent

sparky42 wrote: »

The Philippine design is just too wide for the Graving Dock, I doubt with the money restrictions they are going to want to go for redesigning it 2 foot smaller. Could be interesting to see what South Korea could come up with, or Singapore. But I'd say it's more likely to be a European design, in terms of British yards, do any of them have a COTS design ready to go?

If she's going to be designed for distant EEZ/Out of EEZ operations I'd go for Tom Crean to be honest.

Don't know about how they'd handle the Graving Dock to be honest, how many times a year would a ship use it?Offshore the work? resize the dock? I'd say for the future Larger ships are going to be the Norm, so it might be worth it longterm.

A COTS design where you're basically sticking on an OTO MALERA and painting it grey may be an option, really depends on what requirements come out in the documentation.
I've a feeling the NS/DF may take the opportunity to go a bit more warry though, especially with whom currently occupies the COS berth.

Personally I'm in favour of a FREMM hospital ship defensively armed Destroyer!!