3 New Navy Vessels for Irish Naval Service

johnsds

goldie fish wrote: »

I am involved in the preparation of a submission. Everyone with an interest in the defence of the state and its future should. We can waffle on message boards about what we would do if we were in charge all we want, but if we actually believe that a change should be made, where, and how, this is our chance.
To do it properly should involve an all arms submission. Not just Naval, Air Corps or Army.
Who are you hoping to hear from?

Id like to hear your opinions on what our capabilities and equipment should be.

Again,

Thanks.

goldie fish

johnsds wrote: »

Id like to hear your opinions on what our capabilities and equipment should be.

Again,

Thanks.

It's a bit more complicated than that. It's not a shopping list, its a policy blueprint.

Maoltuile

goldie fish wrote: »

Meanwhile the only thing the exers are complaining about is the proposed names of the new ships.

It's a valid topic of discussion, despite what you imply. The good thing about the Irish mythology names was that they avoided any political strokes or controversy with naming ships by the government of the day (see the new USS Ronald Reagan and USS George HW Bush for reference).

I suppose we ought to be glad that the current Minister didn't name them the LE Kevin Higgins and Duke of Wellington or something, but still.

goldie fish

It isn't valid. Their energies would be better spent campaigning to get OPV3 built, or even the EPV(s). Better yet, why don't they shout for a navy larger than 8 ships, and give up getting misty eyed about the good ole days of corvettes, mess decks and the 9 mile limit.

roadmaster

Can we not have as the old saying goes have jam and butter on both sides in aiming for a 12 ship navy and keeping our ships named after irish females?

goldie fish

Priorities. No point having 6 rusting hulks with nice names. Only 7 ships are named after Irish females. One is named after the writing style of one of Ireland's more famous revolutionaries and poets.
Not a lot of people realise that.

roadmaster

goldie fish wrote: »

Priorities. No point having 6 rusting hulks with nice names. Only 7 ships are named after Irish females. One is named after the writing style of one of Ireland's more famous revolutionaries and poets.
Not a lot of people realise that.

I know there is a payment plan in place for these ships. But how bot away of expanding the navy we say build us 4 opvs and 2 epvs over the next few years and we pay for them either via a ppp or hp style payment over 25 years. That way we get are ships without cash up front and the uk get jobs secured for 5 years in a area with not many jobs. Everyone wins ,Could this work?

goldie fish

roadmaster wrote: »

I know there is a payment plan in place for these ships. But how bot away of expanding the navy we say build us 4 opvs and 2 epvs over the next few years and we pay for them either via a ppp or hp style payment over 25 years. That way we get are ships without cash up front and the uk get jobs secured for 5 years in a area with not many jobs. Everyone wins ,Could this work?

Not a bad idea actually. The RN OPVs were initially leased from the builders, who retailed ownership and responsibility for all refits and repairs, with an obligation to have the ships available for x patrol days per annum. The RN bought them outright last year 10 years after they were built.

ex_infantry

all theses suggestions are too clever and well thought out for the likes of our government

goldie fish

ex_infantry wrote: »

all theses suggestions are too clever and well thought out for the likes of our government

Your statement displays total ignorance of the current payment plan, and the options that were considered by the then government, prior to contracts being signed.

johnsds

Goldie,

Do you or can you ever see Irish vessels being armed with anything like Goalkeeper/phalanx or any type of ship to surface missile or ship to aircraft weapons system or is it just going to be turrets?

goldie fish

johnsds wrote: »

Goldie,

Do you or can you ever see Irish vessels being armed with anything like Goalkeeper/phalanx or any type of ship to surface missile or ship to aircraft weapons system or is it just going to be turrets?

The OTO Melara does the job quite well. It's not "just" a turret. Presently the risk profile requires nothing else. If the ships were to be sent aomewhere where there was risk from sea skimming missile attack, then I know the fitting of RAM or CIWS would be considered. Indeed the Current secondary armament, the 20mm Rhine Metall was replaced on german vessels by an automated upgraded version. This is more likely as a future retro fit.

roadmaster

The naval service i take it is like any company in that one of its major costs is wages and i presume thats one of the DOD'S fears of an expaned navy . Opv crew 46 and cpv 39 so with modern technology would it be possable to crew a new opv with a smaller crew to get over all costs down but still getting more ships at sea?

goldie fish

roadmaster wrote: »

The naval service i take it is like any company in that one of its major costs is wages and i presume thats one of the DOD'S fears of an expaned navy . Opv crew 46 and cpv 39 so with modern technology would it be possable to crew a new opv with a smaller crew to get over all costs down but still getting more ships at sea?

No. The Ships already operate with the minimum of crew compared to other similar vessels worldwide. The New OPVs will be larger ships with no dramatic difference in crew size. The Defence forces budget, of which the NS is a part maintains a 70:30 ratio with wages to all other costs. Wages, pensions etc making up 70%. What is interesting also is that while the total ships crews in the NS make up less than half of the total strength, there are still quite a large percentage who never go to sea. Ideally, 80% should be rotating between sea and land.

Maoltuile

goldie fish wrote: »

It isn't valid. Their energies would be better spent campaigning to get OPV3 built, or even the EPV(s). Better yet, why don't they shout for a navy larger than 8 ships, and give up getting misty eyed about the good ole days of corvettes, mess decks and the 9 mile limit.

If you really believe that a few emails from old salts affects mult-million euro purchase decisions by the Government of this or any other day, then I wish you the best of luck. Other decisions are open to pressure, though.

roadmaster

goldie fish wrote: »

No. The Ships already operate with the minimum of crew compared to other similar vessels worldwide. The New OPVs will be larger ships with no dramatic difference in crew size. The Defence forces budget, of which the NS is a part maintains a 70:30 ratio with wages to all other costs. Wages, pensions etc making up 70%. What is interesting also is that while the total ships crews in the NS

make up less than half of the total strength, there are still quite a large percentage who never go to sea. Ideally, 80% should be rotating between sea and land.

why is it so low? Is it a senior management planning problems or is a culture in the navy?

goldie fish

roadmaster wrote: »

why is it so low? Is it a senior management planning problems or is a culture in the navy?

Now that is the million dollar question.

roadmaster

goldie fish wrote: »

Now that is the million dollar question.

There must be some fairly clear reasons for it and soultions?

goldie fish

roadmaster wrote: »

There must be some fairly clear reasons for it and soultions?

Same reason that there were people in the Army in the 80s and 90s who managed to do 21 years without going overseas.

roadmaster

goldie fish wrote: »

Same reason that there were people in the Army in the 80s and 90s who managed to do 21 years without going overseas.

It shows i am not in the military, i was under the impression from reading forums like this and the general media that of the 3 services that the navy was the leading light

punchdrunk

the problem with the Irish military is that the distribution of the force is all wrong,
the army is far far too large and spread out across the country-
lots of barracks we don't need and lots of redundancy & overlap in it's hierarchy

as an island nation we should have a far larger Air Corps and more importantly a much bigger Navy.

Ideally I think that the army should really be structured more like the marine corps as an Marine expeditionary force but it will never happen!

knucklehead6

punchdrunk wrote: »

the problem with the Irish military is that the distribution of the force is all wrong,
the army is far far too large and spread out across the country-
lots of barracks we don't need and lots of redundancy & overlap in it's hierarchy

as an island nation we should have a far larger Air Corps and more importantly a much bigger Navy.

Ideally I think that the army should really be structured more like the marine corps as an Marine expeditionary force but it will never happen!

and in my opinion we should have an Air Corps and Naval Service based on something similar to the USCG model. I feel we have a moral obligation to have a Coast Guard like service second to none, with helicopters capable of HIFR, long range patrol A/C capable of supporting same. I feel our ships should spend more time at sea on patrol, and there should be more of them.


BUT That is, if not straying into Mitty territory, it's jumping over the border and running around shouting "I'M A WALT, I'M A WALT"

johnsds

knucklehead6 wrote: »

with helicopters capable of HIFR

Dauphins did that off LE Eithne.

Alkers

johnsds wrote: »

Dauphins did that off LE Eithne.

How many times would you say?

goldie fish

Simona1986 wrote: »

How many times would you say?

Not much after the problems with fuel contamination were discovered.

knucklehead6

johnsds wrote: »

Dauphins did that off LE Eithne.

i meant aerial HIFR

goldie fish

Unnecessarily dangerous.

Jim from Cork

I see from the Navy Photo Section on Facebook that the Emer has left for her final patrol.

nowecant

Article in the Independent

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/new-life-as-luxury-liner-or-research-ship-awaits-navys-oldest-vessel-29532247.html

RALPH RIEGEL – 28 AUGUST 2013

THE Naval Service's oldest vessel will end 35 years of proud service next month and be auctioned off for conversion to a luxury cruise ship or research vessel.

If a private sale cannot be agreed, the vessel will be sold by public auction before September 27.

She will be replaced by the first of two new €98m patrol vessels that are being completed at a shipyard in the south of England.

COLLISION

The vessels, due for delivery in 2014 and 2015, will be named after literary figures rather than being given famous Irish women's names, which has been the tradition.

The first new ship will be named LE Samuel Beckett and the second, due for delivery in 2015, will be LE James Joyce. They will replace LE Emer and LE Aoife.

LE Aoife is currently undergoing repairs after her hull was damaged last Sunday in a collision with a pontoon in Cork harbour during a Gathering event.

The collision was filmed by Scandinavian holidaymakers and has gone viral on the internet.

Naval engineers are examining the ship, but she is expected to remain in service for the next 12 months.

The incident has been blamed on a mechanical problem with the ship's steering control system.

Like the LE Emer, LE Aoife will also be sold.

Auctioneer Dominic Daly said there is traditionally very strong interest in such former military vessels as they are built to a very high specification and are meticulously maintained.

"We have had expressions of interest from Ireland, Europe, Turkey and Africa," he said.

Mr Daly sold the last Naval Service ship to be disposed of when LE Deirdre fetched €230,000 at auction in 2001.

She was converted into a luxury cruiser and now operates in the Mediterranean.

ADVANCED

The two new navy ships are updated versions of the LE Roisin and LE Niamh design and will be 12 metres longer at 90 metres.

The vessels, which cost €49m each, will be delivered from next January by Babcock Marine.

They will be vastly more advanced than the ships they replace and are capable of handling both drone aircraft and remote-controlled robotic subs.

The LE Samuel Beckett will be delivered in January but will then undergo three months of trials before being commissioned.

With a top speed of 23 knots, the new ships will be more than 30pc faster than the ageing vessels they are replacing.

By the time the two new ships are commissioned, six of Ireland's eight-strong fleet of naval ships will be more than 30 years old. The vessels are the first new ships commissioned for the Naval Service since the LE Roisin (1999) and LE Niamh (2001).

Irish Independent

nowecant

What is the chance that we will get confirmation of exercising the option for a third P90 early next year? perhaps after the first has been commissioned?

I quite like the new P90s and think they are fit for purpose as the smallest vessels in a new fleet. I also believe the price is reasonable considering their capabilities. Exercising the option on the third vessel (all going well with the build of the first) will see the continuing modernization of the Navel Service while a decision on a MRV can be delayed until finances are available.

An interesting question for those more knowledgeable than I, Would a fourth vessel of this type be too much? What are the pros and cons of such a proposal?