Woman jailed for sending her kids to a good school

Fight_Night

Bloody Nipples wrote: »

Are you denying the fact that Blacks and Hispanics in America are more likely to end up in the prison system?

Just stop and consider the potential reasons for this.

Thats because there are more poor black and hispanic people in America than white people. Poor areas are bound to create more crime and thus the minorities that populate these areas are more likely to be imprisoned. Do you really think that if this person was white they would just let her off the hook?

biko

Malcolm X:

When you live in a poor neighborhood, you are living in an area where you have to have poor schools. When you have poor schools, you have poor teachers. When you have poor teachers, you get a poor education. When you get a poor education, you are destined to be a poor man and a poor woman the rest of your life.

Cavehill Red

Monty Burnz wrote: »

Well she had invested in that (the hard route) but presumably sending her kids to a crap school for a few years would have meant they were well behind the curve when she was able to move them to a good school. A lot of kids never recover if they fall behind their peers (for whatever reason).

She was training to be a teacher. She could have given them grinds and assistance with their schoolwork at night.
Or she could have moved in with her father who lived in the district where the school was and they could have legally attended it without her committing fraud.
She could have delayed having kids until she could afford to provide for them the way she wished to.
There were plenty of other options for her beyond breaking the law and defrauding taxpayers.

Fight_Night

Monty Burnz wrote: »

That's a heartwarming belief, but it's not true as I'm sure you know.*

*Says failed tennis professional.

Yeah well sports are a bit of a genetic lottery but other than that I think anything is possible

Ronin247

Bloody Nipples wrote: »

By refusing to bypass a flawed system you are enabling it.

The system is only flawed in the eyes of those who cannot afford it.You dont get to pick and choose which laws suit you in a democracy.

Mike 1972

Cavehill Red wrote: »

There were plenty of other options for her beyond breaking the law.

Are you claiming you never break the law ?

Im trying to determine if you are self deluded as well as being a hypocrite ?

Bloody Nipples

Fight_Night wrote: »

Thats because there are more poor black and hispanic people in America than white people. Poor areas are bound to create more crime and thus the minorities that populate these areas are more likely to be imprisoned. Do you really think that if this person was white they would just let her off the hook?

Absolutely correct sir. There is more crime in poor areas. Ten points to Ravenclaw.

Next question:
Why is there a higher percentage of the African-American population living below the poverty line?

Ronin247

Bloody Nipples wrote: »

Are you denying the fact that Blacks and Hispanics in America are more likely to end up in the prison system?

Just stop and consider the potential reasons for this.

Because they have Gobsh*tes telling them they are entitled to steal services because they are poor and black perhaps??

Bloody Nipples

Ronin247 wrote: »

The system is only flawed in the eyes of those who cannot afford it.You dont get to pick and choose which laws suit you in a democracy.

So if you don't have money the system is free to fuck you in the ass? Am I picking you up correctly?

Cavehill Red

Mike 1972 wrote: »

Are you claiming you never break the law ?

Im trying to determine if you are self deluded as well as being a hypocrite ?

I applied to 43 schools in North Dublin when I obtained custody of my child and couldn't get a place in any of them.
Did I go ahead and start lying, falsifying documents and committing fraud to ensure a decent education? No, I reached into my pocket and stumped up the money which I could ill afford to get a place in a good school.
But then again, I'm no gombeen.

johnnyskeleton

jackiebaron wrote: »

The US legal system strikes again with its penchant for cruelty:

http://www.smirkingchimp.com/thread/allison-kilkenny/33902/american-apartheid

I can't wait to hear the rationalisations of those who want to point the finger of blame at this misfortunate mother.

If I forge a VHI certificate to get my children better health care, is that also acceptable? Or if I steal nice food instead of buying alright food? Where does it end? Am I entitled to get my children fraudulently obtained cars for their 18th birthdays? Can any crime be justified on the basis that you are doing it for your kids?

Ronin247

Bloody Nipples wrote: »

So if you don't have money the system is free to fuck you in the ass? Am I picking you up correctly?

No.You are free to educate yourself and make a sucess of your life without resorting to criminal acts. 8th Richest Woman in America? Oprah.Poor from crap neighborhood worth over $2.5 billion. Did I mention she is black?? She didnt have a chance poor thing

Mike 1972

Cavehill Red wrote: »

I applied to 43 schools in North Dublin.....

Thats all well and good but its not the question I asked.

uberalles

ejmaztec wrote: »

That'll teach her

That will learn her.

Cavehill Red

Mike 1972 wrote: »

Thats all well and good but its not the question I asked.

Your question was a 'When did you stop beating your wife' nonsense.
I answered you properly - in the exact same situation as this woman, I did not choose to commit fraud, but instead chose to sacrifice and save so that my child could attend a good school.

Fight_Night

Bloody Nipples wrote: »

Absolutely correct sir. There is more crime in poor areas. Ten points to Ravenclaw.

Next question:
Why is there a higher percentage of the African-American population living below the poverty line?

We'd need a whole other thread for that issue. All I was trying to say was that the colour of her skin had nothing to do with the sentence she got.

Bloody Nipples

Ronin247 wrote: »

Because they have Gobsh*tes telling them they are entitled to steal services because they are poor and black perhaps??

Em... No...

I'd say it's more to do with an unequal system.

jackie1974

Cavehill Red wrote: »

And the answer to her plight is to better her conditions by getting some employment and working at it, saving her money and moving to where her kids would be better educated.
The answer is not falsifying court documents and committing fraud.

She is trying to better her conditions, she's training to be a teacher therefore clearly believes education is the way forward (teachers in America get paid a pittance) she is providing for two children while training with none of the programmes and allowances that we are lucky to have in this country. Her children will only have one chance at education so she did the only thing she could under the circumstances.

If one of her children went on to become a 'somebody' she would be hailed as a hero for pushing the boundaries and giving her child everything she could against all odds. If she was laying around, not sending her child to school, screwing the government people would have something to say but she wasn't she was trying to pull herself and her children out of the social pit that they were in, that's a very hard thing to do so I say kudos to her for trying.

Bloody Nipples

Cavehill Red wrote: »

Your question was a 'When did you stop beating your wife' nonsense.
I answered you properly - in the exact same situation as this woman, I did not choose to commit fraud, but instead chose to sacrifice and save so that my child could attend a good school.

Bar fee paying schools, you can enrol your child in any school in the country. This woman did not have the same option. Your situation was not the same.

Cavehill Red

jackie1974 wrote: »

She is trying to better her conditions, she's training to be a teacher therefore clearly believes education is the way forward (teachers in America get paid a pittance) she is providing for two children while training with none of the programmes and allowances that we are lucky to have in this country. Her children will only have one chance at education so she did the only thing she could under the circumstances.

As I revealed, she had plenty of other legal options, but preferred to commit fraud. Now we see that she has not in fact bettered her or her children's conditions, but substantially worsened them.

jackie1974 wrote: »

If one of her children went on to become a 'somebody' she would be hailed as a hero for pushing the boundaries and giving her child everything she could against all odds.

Nonsense. If it emerged that, for example, Barack Obama or Sarah Palin's parents had done this, the ****storm would be enormous.

jackie1974 wrote: »

If she was laying around, not sending her child to school, screwing the government people would have something to say but she wasn't she was trying to pull herself and her children out of the social pit that they were in, that's a very hard thing to do so I say kudos to her for trying.

Er, she was screwing the local government.

Cavehill Red

Bloody Nipples wrote: »

Bar fee paying schools, you can enrol your child in any school in the country. This woman did not have the same option. Your situation was not the same.

That's not true. I applied to 43 schools in my local area and not one offered a place. So in fact, I couldn't enrol my child in at least 43 schools in this country, in fact, in one tiny part of this country.

Bloody Nipples

Cavehill Red wrote: »

That's not true. I applied to 43 schools in my local area and not one offered a place. So in fact, I couldn't enrol my child in at least 43 schools in this country, in fact, in one tiny part of this country.

But you had the right. The schools didn't have places. This woman does not have a choice, she has to go where she's registered.

At the end of the day, Rosa Parks broke the law too. Would you make these same arguements to her?

Cavehill Red

Bloody Nipples wrote: »

But you had the right. The schools didn't have places. This woman does not have a choice, she has to go where she's registered.

At the end of the day, Rosa Parks broke the law too. Would you make these same arguements to her?

What right did I have? I called the Department of Education, who insisted it was my responsibility to secure a school place even though none were available.
A number of schools which refused to enrol my child subsequently found places for children of asylum seekers, despite telling me they were full.
What was my choice? Face jail for not sending my child to school? Send my child miles away to the nearest ghetto school? (At least this woman had a weaker school nearby. I didn't even have that. Even the crap schools claimed to be full.)
This woman had all sorts of choices, and I already listed just a few of them. She chose to break the law. That was a very stupid error on her part. Now, instead of improving her lot and that of her children, she's done exactly the opposite, and I have zero sympathy for her.

Bloody Nipples

Cavehill Red wrote: »

What right did I have? I called the Department of Education, who insisted it was my responsibility to secure a school place even though none were available.
A number of schools which refused to enrol my child subsequently found places for children of asylum seekers, despite telling me they were full.
What was my choice? Face jail for not sending my child to school? Send my child miles away to the nearest ghetto school? (At least this woman had a weaker school nearby. I didn't even have that. Even the crap schools claimed to be full.)
This woman had all sorts of choices, and I already listed just a few of them. She chose to break the law. That was a very stupid error on her part. Now, instead of improving her lot and that of her children, she's done exactly the opposite, and I have zero sympathy for her.

Doesn't make what happened to this woman just or right.

Cavehill Red

Bloody Nipples wrote: »

Doesn't make what happened to this woman just or right.

Nothing 'happened' to this woman. She committed fraud. She got caught. She did all the happening here, from lying to forging documents.
She's no passive victim. She could have done a myriad of other things to improve her kids' education, including teaching them at night herself.
She could've moved to the district and they'd have accepted her kids. Now it didn't matter how close I was to any of the schools I applied to (lived near enough next door to one for fourteen years.) It made no difference.
She had the option to send her kids to a school which would take them, more than this country offered me and my kid.
She decided that wasn't good enough, and rather than find the money from somewhere, or move to a better area, she committed fraud.
No sympathy. She brought this on herself.

jackie1974

Cavehill Red wrote: »

As I revealed, she had plenty of other legal options, but preferred to commit fraud. Now we see that she has not in fact bettered her or her children's conditions, but substantially worsened them.



Nonsense. If it emerged that, for example, Barack Obama or Sarah Palin's parents had done this, the ****storm would be enormous.



Er, she was screwing the local government.

Yea because American politicians are squeaky clean, they would never push the boundaries to get ahead :pac::pac: don't make me laugh please

Bloody Nipples

Cavehill Red wrote: »

Nothing 'happened' to this woman. She committed fraud. She got caught. She did all the happening here, from lying to forging documents.
She's no passive victim. She could have done a myriad of other things to improve her kids' education, including teaching them at night herself.
She could've moved to the district and they'd have accepted her kids. Now it didn't matter how close I was to any of the schools I applied to (lived near enough next door to one for fourteen years.) It made no difference.
She had the option to send her kids to a school which would take them, more than this country offered me and my kid.
She decided that wasn't good enough, and rather than find the money from somewhere, or move to a better area, she committed fraud.
No sympathy. She brought this on herself.

You're hiding behind the fact she committed a crime. I'm saying what she did shouldn't even be against the law.

Cavehill Red

jackie1974 wrote: »

Yea because American politicians are squeaky clean, they would never push the boundaries to get ahead :pac::pac: don't make me laugh please

Obama's aunt was in the country illegally - a matter of paperwork as much as anything. The sh1tstorm was huge. Palin's daughter had a kid. She got crucified in the media over it.
Dubya had an easy ride at home in Texas during the draft. That rumbled on for over a year.
If any of their parents had committed fraud on their behalf, it would go nuclear in the US.

Cavehill Red

Bloody Nipples wrote: »

You're hiding behind the fact she committed a crime. I'm saying what she did shouldn't even be against the law.

So you endorse fraud. More gombeen thinking.
That's what screwed up this country - everyone thinking theirs is a special case. Everyone thinking that laws don't apply to them, and when they do it's specially unfair.
So we end up with politicians who serve the parish pump, obtaining passports, fast-tracking benefits claims, getting the road fixed, instead of running the economy or governing the country properly.

TheZohanS

Bloody Nipples wrote: »

You're hiding behind the fact she committed a crime. I'm saying what she did shouldn't even be against the law.

The cheek of him hiding behind facts,what's legal and the fact that she broke the law, the scamp.

Bloody Nipples

Cavehill Red wrote: »

So you endorse fraud. More gombeen thinking.
That's what screwed up this country - everyone thinking theirs is a special case. Everyone thinking that laws don't apply to them, and when they do it's specially unfair.
So we end up with politicians who serve the parish pump, obtaining passports, fast-tracking benefits claims, getting the road fixed, instead of running the economy or governing the country properly.

Sigh. I'm not endorsing fraud.
Contraception was illegal here until the 70s. Homosexuality was illegal here until the 90s.

These were crazy laws that should never have existed.

My position is that jailing a woman for preferring one school over another is crazy. The "falsification of court documents" was lying on a form of the place of residence of her children. She didn't shoot anyone. I'd put it up there with being double parked. As in a fine at most.

up for anything

Fight_Night wrote: »

they save money long enough they'll be able to afford a better education. They are at a disadvantage but it's not impossible.

That's great. Her kids should be able to start first grade at a decent school by the time they're 18 or so. :rolleyes:

Bloody Nipples

TheZohan wrote: »

The cheek of him hiding behind facts,what's legal and the fact that she broke the law, the scamp.

Laws can be appealed, repealed, modified etc.

Fight_Night

Bloody Nipples wrote: »

Sigh. I'm not endorsing fraud.
Contraception was illegal here until the 70s. Homosexuality was illegal here until the 90s.

These were crazy laws that should never have existed.

My position is that jailing a woman for preferring one school over another is crazy. The "falsification of court documents" was lying on a form of the place of residence of her children. She didn't shoot anyone. I'd put it up there with being double parked. As in a fine at most.

You have to go to the school in your district. You pay taxes to fund the school in your district. She sent her children to a school in a different district with presumably much higher tax and she did not pay this tax. This is not the same as Rosa Parks or homosexuality being illegal ffs.

Cavehill Red

Bloody Nipples wrote: »

I'd put it up there with being double parked. As in a fine at most.

They asked her to repay the $30,000 in education she defrauded. I suspect she isn't going to do that.

Cavehill Red

up for anything wrote: »

That's great. Her kids should be able to start first grade at a decent school by the time they're 18 or so. :rolleyes:

Then she should've had her kids later, when she had money to fund them and their education, if she wanted the very best of everything for them.

TheZohanS

Bloody Nipples wrote: »

Laws can be appealed, repealed, modified etc.

She knew the law and she broke it. If we all went around breaking laws just because we don't agree with them where would be be as a society?

Personally I'd like to donate €10k to the ISPCC, should I be allowed to forge my VAT rebate cheque from Revenue to €10k to make a donation? Of course not.

Just as this woman shouldn't have forged documents.

Mike 1972

Fight_Night wrote: »

She sent her children to a school in a different district with presumably much higher tax .

On what basis are you presuming this ?

Do you know how the tax system in US school districts works ?

Cavehill Red

Mike 1972 wrote: »

On what basis are you presuming this ?

Do you know how the tax system in US school districts works ?

She was billed $30,000 in back tuition. Had she paid that, they wouldn't have prosecuted. It was only when she refused to pay for the tuition she had fraudulently obtained that they prosecuted her.
For a would-be teacher, she could do with learning a bit herself. That was a dumb move. She could've offered to pay the tuition over a period of time and spared her own career and herself a fraud conviction.

Fizman

bonerm wrote: »

America. A Brave New World.

A Moist Erect Roundy Infidelic Country, America.

Mike 1972

Cavehill Red wrote: »

She was billed $30,000 in back tuition.......

Dunno why youre quoting a post consisting of two questions (directed at another poster) without answering either question ?

You seem to be adverse to answering questions ?

jonsnow

Fight_Night wrote: »

I am a firm believer that if you work hard enough you can become anything you want to be, .

Yeah if you work really hard you can become anything you want.You can become the magical man from Happy-Land,and live in a gumdrop house on Lollipop Lane*

*Factors such as socio-economic background,education, race, genetics and luck may apply

Cavehill Red

Mike 1972 wrote: »

Dunno why youre quoting a post consisting of two questions (directed at another poster) without answering either question ?

You seem to be adverse to answering questions ?

That post queried whether she owed money in relation to the tuition her kids received.
The answer is yes, she did, and had she paid it, she wouldn't have gone to jail for fraud.

iguana

jackie1974 wrote: »

As Marie Antoinette would say 'Let them eat cake'

Marie Antoinette never said that. Of course you'd know that if you'd gone to a better school.:P

Mike 1972

Cavehill Red wrote: »

That post queried whether she owed money in relation to the tuition her kids received.

The post queried nothing of the sort

(dont bother replying because I wont)

jackie1974

iguana wrote: »

Marie Antoinette never said that. Of course you'd know that if you'd gone to a better school.:P

Nitpicking, I went to a ****e school but I do know the history of that saying. I was merely showing how somebody in a better social position can be totally oblivious to the needs of the poorer person. The same anecdote is used in a lot of different cultures.

jackiebaron

Cavehill Red wrote: »

You think schools have infinite capacities or something?

If a restriction is placed upon a parent to send their kid to a school in her district then the onus is on the school board to ensure that that school is comparable to schools in other districts. A contract of this nature works both ways. If people in a certain area get clean fresh water out of their taps and people in a poorer neighbour get polluted, sludgy crap from their faucets then you can't expect them to be perfectly fine with that (illegal) situation. The water should be of the best quality in both areas.
Simply digging your heals in in support of a crap unfair rule is "gombeen"

jackiebaron

Ronin247 wrote: »

It is called capitalism.I would move to a better area to get my kids a better education,it may cost a bit more but it is an investment.

Are you saying its ok to steal services,cant afford SKY just steal it,Neighbour has a better car? rob a few houses to buy yourself one.I was brought up to believe if I couldnt afford it I could save up or do without.

So everyone who lives in an area can just up sticks and moved to a more expensive area, just like that. You're obviously a child of privilege. And for your information the education system is not part of the capitalist scam. Schools are not private businesses. They are mandatory services.

Your SKY and nice car analogy was moronic by the way.

jackiebaron

Fight_Night wrote: »

Capitalism is a bitch when you're on the bottom but that is the way it is. The other families in the richer district were paying for her kids education that is no matter how you look at it, stealing. Were her intentions good? Yes but that is not the point.

Hello, Earth to Fight_Night!! Both schools were state schools. They weren't fee paying schools.

iguana

jackie1974 wrote: »

Nitpicking, I went to a ****e school but I do know the history of that saying. I was merely showing how somebody in a better social position can be totally oblivious to the needs of the poorer person. The same anecdote is used in a lot of different cultures.

I was just kidding with you, hence the smilie.:(

But I also feel a bit sorry for Marie Antoinette for having that phrase, and the associated attitude, attributed to her. Bad enough that she outlived all but one of her children and was then executed. But she was not oblivious to the needs of the poor, she was actually quite generous for a woman of her time and position and was moved by the plight of the poor during the French bread shortages.