Ireland as a liberal, secular society in 2011?

SparkyTech

Mods am not sure if this is more suited to debate forum or humanities, move if appropriate

Do you believe that Ireland has moved on from its traditional conservative values once held in high esteem under previous governments who viewed the intrinsic link bewtween church and state as paramount to the sucess of the country? Are we living in a society that is inclusive and tolerant of all religions, traditions and backrounds, or do Irish people hold certain doube standards on certain issues?

I think we have moved on tremendously. Im happy that the Ireland im growing up in has those who immigrated here from worse off parts of the world to find a better life for themselves, intergrated into our communities, created sucessfull businesses and stimulated the economy in the boom times. Its definitly broaded our minds to different perspectives and way of doing things from people who lived differently to our own upbringings.

However, I still think racisim, bigotry and conservative values are prevelant in Ireland throughout, regardless of where you live. The racisim and prejudice against those who have come here ''send the forigners home'', ''they took our jobs'' mentality that exists amongst a minority in response to find a scapegoat for the economic downturn, Our discrimination against the traveling community, Gay rights, Abortion (Not pro or anti, just the option to give women the right to choose for themselves what to do with their own body), Reluctance to awknowldge mental health or discuss sex openly in schools or at home. Women in politics (lack of)....to name but a few.

Don't get me wrong, Not aiming to tar everyone with the same brush or make generalisations, I think from the examples above MOST folk are willing to debate these issues with civilness and an open mind, however I also believe a sizeable majority of the Irish populus are still wary of change and not open to moving forward, or even the prospect of changing their values. Irish politics is a prime example of the ''me fein'' attitude im talking about that has crippled this country of late

Everyone won't be liberal and agreeing on all fronts. But conservativness does not always equate to a closed mind or reluctance to accept anothers point of view/debate it. I feel that living in Dublin growing up im constricted and unable to express cotroversial opinions amongst even close friends without them shying away from the prospect of discussing them, regardless on weather or not we agree on the same front. So, are we liberal and secular, or still intrinsicly conservative as a nation?

nyarlothothep

At best you'll get personal opinions backed up with anecdotal evidence masquerading as fact so let me step in and begin the circus. In my opinion yes and no, in the countryside I have always felt that the indigenous population are more conservative whereas in the city you get more of a mix between traditional and progressive values. In fact the same phenomenon has been observed in many other countries. I remember watching an interview with the Beatles, the Irish interviewer made a huge deal about the length of their hair, I was kind of bemused by that, it reflected the kind of small minded attitude that was pervasive and to some extent still is on this emerald isle. Persecuting people for deviating from the mainstream in terms of appearance/philosophy/ideology/politics/values/musical tastes is what is classifiable as a backwards and primitive mentality.

prinz

SparkyTech wrote: »

However, I still think racisim, bigotry and conservative values are prevelant in Ireland throughout, regardless of where you live..

You have included conservatism with racism and bigotry? What conservative values are you referring to?

SparkyTech wrote: »

The racisim and prejudice against those who have come here ''send the forigners home'', ''they took our jobs'' mentality that exists amongst a minority in response to find a scapegoat for the economic downturn, Our discrimination against the traveling community, Gay rights, Abortion (Not pro or anti, just the option to give women the right to choose for themselves what to do with their own body), Reluctance to awknowldge mental health or discuss sex openly in schools or at home. Women in politics (lack of)....to name but a few.

These things will exist no matter how much a 'liberal, secular' society we have. By and large in personal experience I haven't found Ireland to stand out for racism and prejudice against any particular groups. I will say however IMO there is a noted 'anti-social' culture that exists in this countryand it is basically thrown at everyone, regardless of race , religion, sex etc.

SparkyTech wrote: »

Don't get me wrong, Not aiming to tar everyone with the same brush or make generalisations, I think from the examples above MOST folk are willing to debate these issues with civilness and an open mind, however I also believe a sizeable majority of the Irish populus are still wary of change and not open to moving forward, or even the prospect of changing their values..

That depends, do you expect people to change just because you want them to, or should people only be expected to change because they want to? What you might consider a move forward is not what others might consider a move forward.

SparkyTech wrote: »

Everyone won't be liberal and agreeing on all fronts. But conservativness does not always equate to a closed mind or reluctance to accept anothers point of view/debate it.

It doesn't. Some people are conservative because they feel that change for change's sake is not the best way forward. Interesting that you would earlier in the post include conservatism with racism and bigotry.

SparkyTech wrote: »

I feel that living in Dublin growing up im constricted and unable to express cotroversial opinions amongst even close friends without them shying away from the prospect of discussing them, regardless on weather or not we agree on the same front. So, are we liberal and secular, or still intrinsicly conservative as a nation?

I think there are two issues here which need to be untangled. One is liberal/secular v conservative (although that is an over-simplified false divide anyway). The other issue is one of an Irish aversion to discussing serious topics even with close friends which was discussed on the dating thread on this forum.

looksee

While I do think that you will get people in any society who will have racist or bigotted views, I think in Ireland often comes down to the 'blame' culture. There is a tendency to want to find someone to 'blame' for any circumstances. Sometimes this is valid but more often it is a distraction from doing something about it.

It works at a national level, but also at a personal level, I have seen issues that need to be worked out and can be worked out, but in discussion it is very hard to get past the 'well let's see whose fault it was first', then having agreed on that, the subject can be regarded as dealt with.

Now that the Church can be handily blamed for a significant number of issues it is easy to blame it for all ills. It might be worth remembering that folk memory accepted the Church for centuries and made it what it is, part of society, made up of sons and daughters of Ireland who were encouraged to become part of it. If you deny this then you also have to give up the '800 years of oppression' which is apparently part of the Irish psyche and causes so many problems.

What I am saying is that, if you can shake off the authority of the church, which many have, then you can also shake off the folk memory of the past. This means that instead of blaming all ills on the Church or the Brits, people accept that the priority is to get on with with the present and the future, accept that what is past is past and try and figure out the best way to restructure the country.

I am not talking about rewriting history or pretending things did not happen, but at this stage it should be irrelevant to progress. It also does not mean you have to hate the Church, it can become a part of society as it is in many other countries, there, and giving grounding and guidance for those who want it, but not having the power to interfere with secular matters - including education, health and local politics. In the same way other faiths and nationalities can be absorbed and the best parts of their ethics absorbed to create a stronger society.