Paying for a Mistake

Twilightning

Hey guys, just thought I'd get a bit of feedback on this issue here.

Currently employed in a local newsagents that are a well known franchise and I'm usually working behind the till. A couple of days ago, somebody came into the shop and when I served them, they handed me a fake €50 note. I didn't notice this at the time but when one of the co-managers counted up the money in the dropbox under the till, he discovered it was a fake and now I'm expected to pay for the mistake.

On one hand I feel responsible for losing the shop money and I do try my best to try and spot fake €50 notes whenever I can but sometimes it can be difficult since the shop can be fairly busy and you're just concentrating on the length of the queue and getting the job done as quickly and efficiently as possible. But on the other hand, when I was receiving my training for this job which was done in a video format, the video stressed to always check notes in denominations larger than 50 in a specific machine just to make sure, but our shop doesn't have any of this. We're just expected to know whether or not a note's fake by looking at it. On closer inspection you can but should I really be held accountable for the mistake if the shop doesn't even give us the proper means to check thoroughly and correctly? Also, is it legal?

Thank you.

the_syco

Twilightning wrote: »

But on the other hand, when I was receiving my training for this job which was done in a video format, the video stressed to always check notes in denominations larger than 50 in a specific machine just to make sure, but our shop doesn't have any of this. We're just expected to know whether or not a note's fake by looking at it. On closer inspection you can but should I really be held accountable for the mistake if the shop doesn't even give us the proper means to check thoroughly and correctly? Also, is it legal?

As you have no way to check, I can't see how.

xalot

That doesn't sound right. It sounds like human error. I'd get on to the citizens information service.

William Powell

I'd love to know the legality of this as I've seen it happen alot in petrol stations where staff were docked money for taking fakes.

TheInquisitor

Yes the difference between fakes and the real thing is huge. No watermark, different quality paper. Different colours.

William Powell

TheInquisitor wrote: »

Yes the difference between fakes and the real thing is huge. No watermark, different quality paper. Different colours.

The good ones are quite good, colors are near perfect, they have holograms, indexing is good (back and front match), they appear to have watermarks and you can see what looks like the internal foil strip. The only thing that they always fail on is the feel of the raised marks. If the note looks like its old then you tend to give less credence to the overall feel but the raised marks should still be there. Last good 50 I saw was passed as part of a 250+euro payment and one good fake with 2 real bills either side needs a really vigilant cashier OR a system the checks and tests every note.

The "bad" fakes can be just that but I've still seen a really poor quality inkjet photocopy make it into the till when there is a queue full of jostling kids of a lunch time.

But none of that helps the OP if he didn't have any official way to check for fakes, either training on exactly what to look for or equipment to check like UV lamp, note checking machine or pen (pens aren't that good as afaik, you can coat the paper to fool them but just using them on every note puts most people off trying to pass a dud)

Nody

What does your contract say? Unless it is clearly specified in your contract/employee handbook they can't deduct it from you (and even then I'd argue about the special equipment missing as per training and hence you can't comply with the company policy due to this).

Twilightning

Nody wrote: »

What does your contract say? Unless it is clearly specified in your contract/employee handbook they can't deduct it from you (and even then I'd argue about the special equipment missing as per training and hence you can't comply with the company policy due to this).

I just had a quick flick through my contract and there's nothing about this inside it, so maybe I have a case. It bothers me a lot too because I'm on €7.49 a bloody hour and €50 is a lot to have to pay back over something like this. I need it more than the shop does and if there was any note checking facilities in the place I'd have taken it on the chin and learnt from my mistake but there wasn't anything for me to go by aside from 'knowing' it's a fake. I've been working there about a month and the manager goes on about it like you're supposed to be able to see them a mile off at a glance. If that were the case, why would counterfeit measures be taken at other shops? Surely it'd be a waste of money. The bloody things are made to look convincing.

William Powell

Twilightning wrote: »

.....If that were the case, why would counterfeit measures be taken at other shops? Surely it'd be a waste of money. The bloody things are made to look convincing.

The up front, seen by all, counterfeit measures are there in part to stop people trying to pass a dud in the first place, bit like putting up a burglar alarm, might stop someone breaking in if there was an easier place with no alarm next door.

Here is some info, check out the section on feel. Then next time you feel a 20 or 50 (any denomination in fact) look at the vertical bars to the left of the value (number 5,10,20 etc) and then feel them, they should be raised (run a nail over them). Now the clever thing is if you feel the back of where the vertical bars are there are no indentations. Check that on every note you take in the shop along with a quick look and you won't take too many fake ones. You can do that feel test as you turn the note around so they all face the same way as you put it in the till thats also handy as you can then see if the note you are putting in the till is different to the one behind it (assuming you keep denominations together).

Pineapple stu

From the view of the shop, if they didnt do anything then there wouldnt be anything to stop you accepting fakes from friends etc. Why should the shop take the hit from your mistakes? If the shop was that concerned about fakes then surely they would have got a note checker by now so it part their fault as well.

Corruptedmorals

Do you have a handbook? Often things like that will be in there instead, and the handbook is binding to the contract. Bigger retail companies tend to have them. f there's nothing in either, NERA might be able to have a say in that. Unfortunately it's a new job and creating a fuss might result in the sack since you can be let go with no reason given. No harm to see if they think it's illegal? Also saying that the shop has no facilities to check notes- looking and feeling them is all very well- but in lunchtime deli rushes etc.? If all else fails, can you get a lend and repay the person after you've had a good few paydays? I hate this crap, ALWAYS happens in places like this with low wages too. It's a disgrace. Unionised companies like where I worked had nothing like that in the contract and nobody was liable for till overs/unders or fakes. Mandate also might be another port of call.

edellc

afaik if the company states even in the video that you check the note under a machine yet fail to supply said machine in the work place then it is not up to you to refund any errors regarding fake notes being received into the till. I would be pointing this out to the manager who asked you to refund the money I would also seek advice from citizens advice if money was docked from your wages

wmpdd3

This comes up the whole time in work,

This is usually what the union say (Mandate)

No deductions can be made from your wages based on something you did in work.

From here: http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1991/en/act/pub/0025/index.html

and easier to understand here: http://www.employmentrights.ie/en/media/paymentofwages.pdf

DEDUCTIONS FROM WAGES AND PAYMENTS TO
EMPLOYER - section 5
Valid deductions (and payments to the employer) from wages -
section 5(1)
4.1 The Act allows an employer to make the following deductions (or
receive the following payments) from the wages of an employee:
— any deduction (or payment) required or authorised by law (e.g.
PAYE or PRSI),
— any deduction (or payment required or authorised by a term of the
employee’s contract (e.g. some occupational pensions scheme
contributions or particular till shortages), or
— any deduction agreed to in writing in advance by the employee
(e.g. trade union subscriptions or VHI premia).


Restrictions on certain deductions (or payments) - section 5(2)
4.2 Special restrictions are placed on employers in relation to
deductions (or the receipt of payments) from wages which:
(a) arise from any act or omission of the employee (e.g. till shortages, bad
workmanship, breakages) or
(b) are in respect of the supply to the employee by the employer of goods
or services which are necessary to the employment (e.g. the provision
or cleaning of uniforms).
Any deduction (or payment) from wages of the kinds described at (a) or
(b) must satisfy the following conditions:
(i) the deduction (or payment to the employer) must be provided for in the
contract of employment in a term whether express or implied and, if
express, whether oral or in writing,
(ii) the amount of the deduction (or payment to the employer) from wages
must be fair and reasonable having regard to all the circumstances
including the amount of the wages of the employee,
(iii) the employee must be given at some time prior to the act or omission
or the provision of the goods or services, written details of the terms in
the contract of employment governing the deduction (or payment to
the employer) from wages. When a written contract exists, a copy of
the term of the contract which provides for the deduction (or payment)
must be given to the employee. In any other case, the employee must
be given written notice of the existence and effect of the term.

mickoneill30

wmpdd3 wrote: »

No deductions can be made from your wages based on something you did in work.

That doesn't sound right.

From the act.
http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1991/en/act/pub/0025/sec0005.html

(2) An employer shall not make a deduction from the wages of an employee in respect of—

unless—

(v) in case the deduction is in respect of compensation for loss or damage sustained by the employer as a result of an act or omission of the employee, the deduction is of an amount not exceeding the amount of the loss or the cost of the damage.


However in the OPs case if there is no method of detecting a dodgy €50 and unless the €50 is obviously forged, it sounds unfair.