Slievenamon Golf Course

d2ww

As someone who gave up his membership and went down the green fees route this year, I was wondering what kind of savings are there on open fees over regular green fees, on say the better courses? Or is it mainly about being able to play in comps?

ShriekingSheet

d2ww wrote: »

As someone who gave up his membership and went down the green fees route this year, I was wondering what kind of savings are there on open fees over regular green fees, on say the better courses? Or is it mainly about being able to play in comps?

There's no savings. It's about playing in competitions.

golfnut1

ShriekingSheet wrote: »

d2ww wrote: »

As someone who gave up his membership and went down the green fees route this year, I was wondering what kind of savings are there on open fees over regular green fees, on say the better courses? Or is it mainly about being able to play in comps?

There's no savings. It's about playing in competitions.

It's a lot cheaper playing in opens vs green fees. I'd guess about half the cost.

frost53

airguitar wrote: »

Slievenamon is getting some fantastic publicity here, fair play!

Not all publicity is good.
I think I'd hope there's no-one in earshot when I sign into an open comp. as a Sl.namon member

princess poppy

flopshot wrote: »

Blessington Lakes Golf Club are offering a similar deal to Slievenamon. €150 for membership to include GUI handicap and subscription. Join now and become a member until February 2013. This is the cheapest golf club membership I have heard to so close to Dublin although I have heard there is a similar deal in a club in Kilkenny for the same price.


I suppose it's down to the individual to be honest about how they use their handicap, if an individual shoots 46pts then the handicap system will cut them accordingly.

Blessington Lakes Golf Club are also offering full membership for €600 from now until 28 Feb 2013. No extras, levies, hello money etc. Now that is a great deal

cackhanded

princess poppy wrote: »

Blessington Lakes Golf Club are also offering full membership for €600 from now until 28 Feb 2013. No extras, levies, hello money etc. Now that is a great deal

Hmm, two posts, both on the same offer. Shilling by any chance?

tincup69

As stated in my previous post I will b joining blessington lakes this year, 15 mins from tallaght. Can be home after a round with time to spare with the kids on a saturday afternoon. Great value. I used to b a member of slievenamon only played it once. Plan on getting the handicap down this year, who knows mayb even single figures

The Hippo

tincup69 wrote: »

As stated in my previous post I will b joining blessington lakes this year, 15 mins from tallaght. Can be home after a round with time to spare with the kids on a saturday afternoon. Great value. I used to b a member of slievenamon only played it once. Plan on getting the handicap down this year, who knows mayb even single figures

I done the distance membership in castlerea this year, played the course 3 times for my h'cap as I hadn't played in a few years. I'm from south Dublin so the travelling was a pain in the arse. I seen that deal up in blessington lakes, I'm gonna go up there for a look and possibly join there as it's only 20 minutes from home. Heard it's a lovely course from friends and that it's well looked after. For 150 euro?? That's good value surely? Anyone ever played it?

1967

Mountain View in Ballyhale Co.Kilkenny also do GUI membership for €150 and charge €10 every time you play for anybody in the Kilkenny,Waterford region on the look out for a deal i would recommend it not the longest of courses but well maintained and i enjoy playing it.

Unglika Norse

In tolling through websites it seem as if Blessington lakes copied everything from Ballinlough Castle even down to their payment on line facility, although it could be just a coincidence

flopshot

Unglika Norse wrote: »

In tolling through websites it seem as if Blessington lakes copied everything from Ballinlough Castle even down to their payment on line facility, although it could be just a coincidence

Maybe Ballinlough coppied Blessington Lakes? maybe it is a coincidence.

There are differences though. Ballinloough membership is dearer and is restricted to people living more than 50km away. Blessington Lakes is 25% cheaper and open to everyone regardless of how close they live to the course

Unglika Norse

It would appear that Blessington have gone for the e150 to be on a par with both Slievenamon who have a straight charge and no payment for golf thereafter,and Mountain View who have a e10 charge per round and Ballinlough have only a charge for weekend golf, horses for courses I suppose,

frost53

princess poppy wrote: »

Blessington Lakes Golf Club are also offering full membership for €600 from now until 28 Feb 2013. No extras, levies, hello money etc. Now that is a great deal

Not a great deal for golf though. I think it's time for the GUI to draw up a two tier golf club system. One for the bona fide clubs clubs with a strong home playing membership and the other tier for the many golf club shells who sell GUI memberships on the cheap.
These are like off shore laundering companies with only a PO box number.
\Draw up a list of such clubs and allow them to organise games amongst themselves. We'll see some fine results of 50+ points.

bobster453

Having read all these posts I thought I would add my tuppenny worth.
IMO There are a large minority(if not a small majority)of golfers in Ireland who have no concept of fair play and are inherently dishonest and incapabable of policing or refereeing themselves according to the Rules of Golf and whose sole purpose when playing is to pull a fast one, whether this is to win a competition, gain a .1 or prevent themselves getting cut.
Maybe this is an inherited Irish trait based on generations of people being subservient to authority in the form of the English yoke,and the desire therefore to gain the upper hand in whatever small way was possible, but the game as a whole in Ireland is rife with inconsistencies in application from the GUI down to Club level.
My point therefore is this.
The majority of the posts in this thread are concerned with so called bandits from a particular Club or two and indeed with castigating the officials who run those Clubs for their perceived inadequecies in applying Handicap cuts, but how much of this I wonder is down to those players or indeed Clubs who fail to report scores achieved in Away Team Competitions.
It is simply implausible to believe that any Club who is affiliated to the GUI and uploads and downloads information from the Central Database of Handicaps has any control over Handicap cuts when these are applied automatically, besides which computers have not taken away the onus on Players to cut themselves for notable performances and inform their Home Club of same.
It is equally ludicrous in the extreme to attempt to castigate a Club for identifying and thereafter exploiting a gap in the market as regards cheap membership in order to enable said Club to continue to grow and develop their offerings to all their Members.
Finally,and again IMO,were it not for Clubs such as these there would be a large amount of current golfers in Ireland who would never have taken a golf club in their hands as before the likes of the Club this thread is about, these golfers would not have been allowed to pass through the hallowed gates of most Clubs as they firstly could not afford the exhorbitant fees being charged, and secondly quite frankly would not have been welcome as they were ordinary working class people, not the elite who kept Golf limited to themselves for years.
So far from castigating this Club and others like it,Posters should be thanking them for bringing Golf and the joys of playing to a far greater playing fraternity than would otherwise have been the case.

jmorrisey

bobster453 wrote: »

So far from castigating this Club and others like it,Posters should be thanking them for bringing Golf and the joys of playing to a far greater playing fraternity than would otherwise have been the case.

Here here, the snobbery associated with these clubs is inherently unfair. I'm sure there are those who abuse the system but these type of people exist in most clubs and every walk of life. At least these clubs enable those of possibly lesser means to bypass some of the rampant elitism that still exists in Ireland regarding this most wonderful of sports

PhilipMarlowe

If members in 'normal' clubs go and win classics or team events at other relatively local venues, it is generally known in the home club even if not reported directly (which it should be) and can be considered then by the handicap committee either in-season or at annual review time.
If a club in munster has a heap of distance members then sorry, I just can't see how a proper handicap review can take place. Of course, someone who plays qualifying singles competitions will generally have their handicap take care of itself and may be flagged by the software at review time if a change is to be considered based on their performance but not if they only play occasionally in singles.

bobster453

PhilipMarlowe wrote: »

If members in 'normal' clubs go and win classics or team events at other relatively local venues, it is generally known in the home club even if not reported directly (which it should be) and can be considered then by the handicap committee either in-season or at annual review time.

Sorry but this argument does not hold any water for me, the fact is that Classics and other Team events HAVE to be reported to Home Clubs by the organising Club, not,which it should be as you state.
The reason they are not is because, certainly in the case of Classics anyhow, they are a money spinner designed to raise funds for a Club or other organisation and nobody organising one really cares who wins once the money keep flowing.
Thus it is not the fault of any Club,"NORMAL" or otherwise, if organising Clubs fail in their duty to report scores for fear of preventing future Classics or Team events being successful once word gets around that they are reporting scores back to Home Clubs.
This strengthens my previous argument that a lot of Players and Clubs are inherently dishonest and really are only using the aforementioned Clubs in this thread as scapegoats whilst doing far worse themselves.

bobster453

PhilipMarlowe wrote: »

, it is generally known in the home club even if not reported directly (which it should be) and can be considered then by the handicap committee either in-season or at annual review time.

Being generally known is just another term for hearsay and this has no part to play in Handicap reviews which have to be based on fact, again the responsibility is with the Player and the organising Club to make these facts known to the Home Club, whether that is in Munster or the Outer Hebrides, geographical location makes no difference.

bobster453

PhilipMarlowe wrote: »

Of course, someone who plays qualifying singles competitions will generally have their handicap take care of itself and may be flagged by the software at review time if a change is to be considered based on their performance but not if they only play occasionally in singles.

Very valid point you make here, the most pertinent part of which is but not if they only play occasionally in singles

We all know of guys, and indeed gals also, as this skullduggery is not sex biased, who purposely keep their Handicaps inflated in order to play in Team Events and Classics that in fairness, they probably dont even need to play in, just sit in a nice warm Clubhouse and fill out the card, they are going to win anyhow.
This again reinforces my point about the dishonesty inherent in the game as a whole, and will ultimtely, have the impact of preventing people playing in any Competition where a timesheet and draw are not in operation as Teams are either loaded or buddies decide amongst themselves who is going to win this week.
This is not limited to a particular Club or indeed members from a particular Club, it is widespread amongst most Clubs in Ireland, but it is convenient for people to blame this Club or that Club in order to deflect from their own actions or in many cases inactions as a Player or as a Club.
An example would be this, take a look at the handicaps of Players who won National competitions over the past few years be it Bruen Pierce Purcell et al, and compare their playing handicaps with their handicaps the following year and what do you find?
In the main their handicaps are levcel if not higher the following year than the year they won!!!
HOW CAN THIS BE?
Simple, their Home Clubs are protecting their Handicaps to ensure they are eligible to play in the same competition the following year..they are told, in effect if not in substance.."Dont bring in too many scores over 40pts or we will have to cut you"
Check it out if you doubt me..because I have and it just reinforces the whole inherently dishonest underbelly of Club golf in Ireland.
Now tell me which of the Clubs that this thread is about have evr come close to winning a match in National Competitions, let alone a Provincial final...Okay I will tell you..NONE OF THEM!!
So again I say most of the comments here, while undoubtedly genuinely posted by people who through hearsay feel they have a grievance against a certain Club or Clubs, just serve to deflect from the real issue which is...
Golf in Ireland is inherently dishonest and Clubs are to blame for consistently shhoting down Motions brought before Provincial and National AGMs that might have had a positive impact on the game..and why would they do that??...
To protect the cosy cartel that exists between Clubs and Members and continue to turn a blind eye to all that is rotten once the money keeps flowing in the form of Membership and Sponsorship.

Matt Santos

bobster453 wrote: »

Very valid point you make here, the most pertinent part of which is but not if they only play occasionally in singles

We all know of guys, and indeed gals also, as this skullduggery is not sex biased, who purposely keep their Handicaps inflated in order to play in Team Events and Classics that in fairness, they probably dont even need to play in, just sit in a nice warm Clubhouse and fill out the card, they are going to win anyhow.
This again reinforces my point about the dishonesty inherent in the game as a whole, and will ultimtely, have the impact of preventing people playing in any Competition where a timesheet and draw are not in operation as Teams are either loaded or buddies decide amongst themselves who is going to win this week.
This is not limited to a particular Club or indeed members from a particular Club, it is widespread amongst most Clubs in Ireland, but it is convenient for people to blame this Club or that Club in order to deflect from their own actions or in many cases inactions as a Player or as a Club.
An example would be this, take a look at the handicaps of Players who won National competitions over the past few years be it Bruen Pierce Purcell et al, and compare their playing handicaps with their handicaps the following year and what do you find?
In the main their handicaps are levcel if not higher the following year than the year they won!!!
HOW CAN THIS BE?
Simple, their Home Clubs are protecting their Handicaps to ensure they are eligible to play in the same competition the following year..they are told, in effect if not in substance.."Dont bring in too many scores over 40pts or we will have to cut you"
Check it out if you doubt me..because I have and it just reinforces the whole inherently dishonest underbelly of Club golf in Ireland.
Now tell me which of the Clubs that this thread is about have evr come close to winning a match in National Competitions, let alone a Provincial final...Okay I will tell you..NONE OF THEM!!
So again I say most of the comments here, while undoubtedly genuinely posted by people who through hearsay feel they have a grievance against a certain Club or Clubs, just serve to deflect from the real issue which is...
Golf in Ireland is inherently dishonest and Clubs are to blame for consistently shhoting down Motions brought before Provincial and National AGMs that might have had a positive impact on the game..and why would they do that??...
To protect the cosy cartel that exists between Clubs and Members and continue to turn a blind eye to all that is rotten once the money keeps flowing in the form of Membership and Sponsorship.

Man makes a point folks....:(

princess poppy

Matt Santos wrote: »

Man makes a point folks....:(

Very good point. It is all too easy to criticise clubs fighting for their survival, while, at the same time turning a blind eye to all the handicap minding going on at some degree in every club. We all know of people being maintained at handicaps for their contributions on teams, surely this also is despicable.

bobster453

princess poppy wrote: »

Very good point. It is all too easy to criticise clubs fighting for their survival, while, at the same time turning a blind eye to all the handicap minding going on at some degree in every club. We all know of people being maintained at handicaps for their contributions on teams, surely this also is despicable.

Even more despicable, for these are the same people and Clubs who whine and whinge whenever anything, including Clubs offering Membership at reduced rates, threatens to upset their cosy status quo and prevent them from keeping their Members hostage by exhorbitant fees, while at the same time castigating other Clubs for doing what they need to do to survive.Talk about running with the hares and chasing with the hounds.

Incidentially, IMO, probably one of the greatest dangers to the survival of any Club nowadays is the threat posed by those Clubs who have been NAMAtised, thus alleviating them of the necessity to pay outstanding debts while at the same time giving them free rein to reduce rates and green fees to a rate so low that no other Club could possibly compete against and hope to survive.
Now that would be something for the GUI to legislate against..but will it happen ...will it heck

k.p.h

princess poppy wrote: »

We all know of people being maintained at handicaps for their contributions on teams, surely this also is despicable.

I saw 81 points turned in for a 13 hole 3 man classic this weekend.

Almaviva

bobster453 wrote: »

This again reinforces my point about the dishonesty inherent in the game as a whole, and will ultimtely, have the impact of preventing people playing in any Competition where a timesheet and draw are not in operation

Where do you see evidence of a change that will lead to this end ?

bobster453 wrote: »

An example would be this, take a look at the handicaps of Players who won National competitions over the past few years be it Bruen Pierce Purcell et al, and compare their playing handicaps with their handicaps the following year and what do you find?

Where did you see this?

bobster453 wrote: »

Simple, their Home Clubs are protecting their Handicaps to ensure they are eligible to play in the same competition the following year..they are told, in effect if not in substance.."Dont bring in too many scores over 40pts or we will have to cut you"

Is passing the buck to a nebulous 'Home Club'. Most handicap secretaries/committee struggle and then give up trying to rein in handicap cheats. The system gives them little or no scope to do so - it is designed only to handle 'honest' golfers who return their best effort in every competition.

bobster453 wrote: »

Check it out if you doubt me

How? Where ?

bobster453 wrote: »

To protect the cosy cartel that exists between Clubs and Members and continue to turn a blind eye to all that is rotten once the money keeps flowing in the form of Membership and Sponsorship.

Clubs and Members are one and the same. There is no cosy cartel.

Matt Santos

The situation with handicaps has been done ad nauseum but the elephant in the room is that all of this trouble started when the GUI gave the responsibility of the handicap to the player. Simple as that!
But, we all know what would happen if a motion was brought to the floor to have the GUI retake the responsibility of handicapping.
It would be thrown out as quick as a flash!

bobster453

Almaviva wrote: »

Where do you see evidence of a change that will lead to this end ?

Dont need to see evidence, it is self evident, why should Players continue supporting Competitions especially Classics and Team Events where all you have to do is look at who has entered and in a lot of cases if you watch and listen enough you will be able to pick out the winners...be a nice one to lay a few bob on..surefire bet


Where did you see this?

Despite all I have said here, I am a devoted Golfer who loves playing the game.As such I always check the scores etc on national papers and when the National Competitions come around have an interest in seeing who is playing etc, checking handicaps is a natural extension of this and Howdidido is ideal for checking any handicap.


Is passing the buck to a nebulous 'Home Club'. Most handicap secretaries/committee struggle and then give up trying to rein in handicap cheats. The system gives them little or no scope to do so - it is designed only to handle 'honest' golfers who return their best effort in every competition.
Agree totally with your comments here regarding hard pressed Handicap Committees, in a lot of cases despite the Handicap Committees decision being final and not open to discussion by a general committee of a Club, this is very hard to do in practice, pressure is often brought to bear from others within a Club to prevent cuts being made.


How? Where ?
It is blatantly obvious this or something similar is going on..again all you have to do is read the notes in the national papers and see where members of a winning panel in certain Clubs are bringing in scores through the latter end of the year off a handicap higher than the one they played with in the Nationals despite supposedly getting cut for winning the National Championship.
Tell you what, try it yourself this year and see if I am wrong.


Clubs and Members are one and the same. There is no cosy cartel.
Once upon a year I would have agreed with you, where being a member of a Club meant a lot more and carried a lot more responsibility with it than it does nowadays, but with the explosion in numbers playing over the past 10 to 15 years and clubs that traditionally were closed off to new entrants having to open their doors to survive, this has led to a situation akin to a cartel where certain members of clubs, especially where they are good and maybe very good golfers effectively dictate the conditions of their membership to the club and the club complies in order to keep them as members and not have them leave to join the competition.

In some instances Clubs too are guilty of making special concessions to members who are good golfers, regardless of their handicaps,to safeguard their services

bobster453

Matt Santos wrote: »

The situation with handicaps has been done ad nauseum but the elephant in the room is that all of this trouble started when the GUI gave the responsibility of the handicap to the player. Simple as that!
But, we all know what would happen if a motion was brought to the floor to have the GUI retake the responsibility of handicapping.
It would be thrown out as quick as a flash!

Aint that the truth, now some headway has been made whereby a player from 2012 on may only get 20 point 1s back in a year regardless of their starting handicap, as opposed to 2 shots above as was previously the case, this can be a massive change as regards allowing the majority of golfers who want to play according to the rules actually win something(not that its all about winning).
This is because one avenue for these handicap cheats is gone whereby they will no longer be able to score out of their socks in a major competition and win and then play as many competitions at home and away as they like to get their handicap back up.

Unglika Norse

I think you are in error, the limit is still two shots in the year, unless I missed something of late, the mostion was lost in I think all the provinces

Jul3s

bobster453 wrote: »

Aint that the truth, now some headway has been made whereby a player from 2012 on may only get 20 point 1s back in a year regardless of their starting handicap, as opposed to 2 shots above as was previously the case, this can be a massive change as regards allowing the majority of golfers who want to play according to the rules actually win something(not that its all about winning).
This is because one avenue for these handicap cheats is gone whereby they will no longer be able to score out of their socks in a major competition and win and then play as many competitions at home and away as they like to get their handicap back up.

This is incorrect, it's true that that motion was put forward by 2 seperate clubs in Ulster and Munster but it wasn't carried.

bobster453

Jul3s wrote: »

This is incorrect, it's true that that motion was put forward by 2 seperate clubs in Ulster and Munster but it wasn't carried.

It Wasnt, see even I am fallible.
Pity, I think it would have helped a lot

bobster453

I wonder why it wasnt passed..my guess it is more of the same regarding maintaining the status quo of allowing cheats to continue to win once they pay their fees
Be interesting to see the reports from the relevant Provincial Councils

link_2007

Just did my shopping in Dunnes and this place are advertising their €150 deal on the back of the receipts

sodbuster77

link_2007 wrote: »

Just did my shopping in Dunnes and this place are advertising their €150 deal on the back of the receipts

They've been at that for at least the last five years

big_drive

Anyone heard any rumours about slievenamon in the past week? That it could be closing?

soundsham

All that will happen is all the el banditos will move to the next accommodating course where €150 will secure a h'cap for 12 months without playing 3 rounds

Unglika Norse

If they already have a handicap and are transfering, they don'y need to play 3 rounds and there is nothing wrong with clubs charging e150. Not every club should be tarred with the same brush.

heavyballs

Unglika Norse wrote: »

If they already have a handicap and are transfering, they don'y need to play 3 rounds and there is nothing wrong with clubs charging e150. Not every club should be tarred with the same brush.

am 1 of those who simply transfered my hcp,if I play in an open for 20 euro plus I'm not going out picking up .1s on purpose ,I'm playing to the best of my ability.
Now,compare my situation to a friend of mine who pays 5 euro in his club singles every Thursday and 7 euro on Sunday for the medal.
In all honesty ,who has the easiest capability of minding his own hcp throughout the year?

WHIP IT!

heavyballs wrote: »

am 1 of those who simply transfered my hcp,if I play in an open for 20 euro plus I'm not going out picking up .1s on purpose ,I'm playing to the best of my ability.
Now,compare my situation to a friend of mine who pays 5 euro in his club singles every Thursday and 7 euro on Sunday for the medal.
In all honesty ,who has the easiest capability of minding his own hcp throughout the year?

Couldn't agree more. The chap who plays his own course week-in week-out can probably "mind" his handicap easier than someone who uses distance membership to visit courses on Open days and who, therefore, wants to play his best golf when he gets there!

I'm a member of Grange Castle, but I probably effectively use it like Distance Membership. I'l play there maybe 10 times this year and will probably play 20 Opens elsewhere.

Slievenamon and it's members have an undeserved reputation. There's bandits at every club and in every society.

soundsham

Unglika Norse wrote: »

If they already have a handicap and are transfering, they don'y need to play 3 rounds and there is nothing wrong with clubs charging e150. Not every club should be tarred with the same brush.[/

Yea that's what I said without playing 3 rounds !!
So if you move into somewhere new and are accepted there in this circumstance the new club is exactly the same as the old in my eyes.

soundsham

heavyballs wrote: »

Unglika Norse wrote: »

If they already have a handicap and are transfering, they don'y need to play 3 rounds and there is nothing wrong with clubs charging e150. Not every club should be tarred with the same brush.

am 1 of those who simply transfered my hcp,if I play in an open for 20 euro plus I'm not going out picking up .1s on purpose ,I'm playing to the best of my ability.
Now,compare my situation to a friend of mine who pays 5 euro in his club singles every Thursday and 7 euro on Sunday for the medal.
In all honesty ,who has the easiest capability of minding his own hcp throughout the year?

I couldn't speculate I presume your friend plays to the best of his ability also

soundsham

I don't care if you pay €150 or €15000 to be a member
My point is any golf club accepting ex slievenamon members without at least making them play 3 rounds are money grabbing
How honest each golfer is or plays is ultimately up to themselves

Just my view

big_drive

I can see the point though. If you moved for example from Carton House to Killarney you wouldn't need to play 3 cards, you would transfer you're handicap. So why would an individual moving from slievenamon need to play 3 cards

Russman

soundsham wrote: »

I don't care if you pay €150 or €15000 to be a member
My point is any golf club accepting ex slievenamon members without at least making them play 3 rounds are money grabbing
How honest each golfer is or plays is ultimately up to themselves

Just my view

It's not really enforceable though, is it ? You'd be into the realms of discrimination, and the legal eagles would be all over it IMO. It's effectively saying "if you're from Slievenamon we don't trust your handicap". It's one of those things you can think but can't say :-)

Most clubs nowadays are so hard pressed financially that unfortunately its all about the money grabbing, in order to survive.

What about a local lad from Slievenamon who uses it as a "normal" home club and moves to Dublin and wants to transfer ? Is he trusted or is it just distance members ?
You can't tar a few hundred people because of the actions of a small minority.

Besides, if anyone is carrying a dodgy Slievenamon h/cap its not particularly difficult to shoot 3 rounds worse than a handicap anyway. All that would do is inconvenience the players and potentially deprive, say, a Dublin club, of much needed revenue if the players decided to go elsewhere. All based on suspicion. Impractical & counter productive IMO.

soundsham

big_drive wrote: »

I can see the point though. If you moved for example from Carton House to Killarney you wouldn't need to play 3 cards, you would transfer you're handicap. So why would an individual moving from slievenamon need to play 3 cards

I understand all the other points
In my personal experience I have only come across a few beauty's with dodgy handicaps they were all from the same place

I'll get off the fence now .

bobster453

big_drive wrote: »

Anyone heard any rumours about slievenamon in the past week? That it could be closing?

My info is that it is most definitely not closing, poster could be mistaking this with the restaurant which closed lately..I did hear tho that Callan are in serious trouble, lost in excess of 80 members so far this year, they had planned to bring in a €10 per week membership deal but called it off as being nearly impossible to manage and administer