How to Use A Roundabout

rickyjb

Can we all agree at least that if there were only one exit and no straight ahead markings on the entrance that you definitely shouldn't be using the right hand lane?

Every morning I nearly get cut off at the same roundabout. And before anyone asks it's a straight up four exit roundabout.

Jumpy

If the entrance and exit has two lanes, then exit on the lane you entered on.

redz11

rickyjb wrote: »

Wow, this thing is still going stong:pac:

It's still the left lane btw, if you enter using the right lane and someone is (correctly) using the lane beside you starting off you'll end up cutting them off when you take the exit as there's only one lane. Which is obviously dangerous. There's no proper reason to use the right lane bar this "12 o'clock" rubbish.

You. Are. WRONG.

The correct lane to use is the right lane. As backed up by substantial evidence in numerous posts in this thread. For example here.

Seriously, I would advise you to go back and read every single post on this thread objectively and with an open mind. No one is perfect. Lots of people have bad driving habits, myself included. But a good driver will at least be willing to critically analyse their own habits, and adjust them as necessary.

The way you are currently driving on such roundabouts is incorrect. Get in touch with the RSA to ask them about this (as another poster did, see earlier in the thread) and they will verify that it is incorrect.

Chances are that you're still going to continue driving the exact same way anyways. But don't be fooling yourself that it's the right or legal way. Because it isn't.

Welease

rickyjb wrote: »

Wow, this thing is still going stong:pac:

It's still the left lane btw, if you enter using the right lane and someone is (correctly) using the lane beside you starting off you'll end up cutting them off when you take the exit as there's only one lane. Which is obviously dangerous. There's no proper reason to use the right lane bar this "12 o'clock" rubbish.

WOW!

Have you read the rules of the road?
http://www.rotr.ie/rules-for-driving/junctions-roundabouts/roundabouts.html

There are 3 states in the rules..

a) going left
b) stright ahead
c) Any later exits - Right hand lane


If you are in the left lane, you are breaking the rules, and you are the one causing a dangerous situation to occur..

Seriously.. why not take the 2 seconds it takes to click on the link above, read the simple rules, and be one less person causing mayhem on our roads....

Vertakill

PeakOutput wrote: »

bloody celica drivers

Ah I've moved onto bigger and better things now.. :P

redz11 wrote: »

You. Are. WRONG.

The correct lane to use is the right lane. As backed up by substantial evidence in numerous posts in this thread. For example here.

Seriously, I would advise you to go back and read every single post on this thread objectively and with an open mind. No one is perfect. Lots of people have bad driving habits, myself included. But a good driver will at least be willing to critically analyse their own habits, and adjust them as necessary.

The way you are currently driving on such roundabouts is incorrect. Get in touch with the RSA to ask them about this (as another poster did, see earlier in the thread) and they will verify that it is incorrect.

Chances are that you're still going to continue driving the exact same way anyways. But don't be fooling yourself that it's the right or legal way. Because it isn't.

This is what I've been talking about btw, redz11.
You've told me, along with vibe666, that the RSA's method is really simple and has no ambiguity and the clock method is the best way.
To be fair, you've been civil about this unlike a certain other person.

I presented 1 roundabout that's on my route to work that I thought provoked some thinking and it's provided some confusion.
(Roundabout: http://maps.google.ie/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=Newbridge,+Ireland&aq=&sll=53.422628,-8.305664&sspn=9.40978,19.709473&ie=UTF8&hq=&hnear=Newbridge,+County+Kildare&layer=c&cbll=53.208417,-6.74162&panoid=BQjsoJ2t95DnQqrwC692Ug&cbp=12,235.09,,0,25.27&ll=53.208359,-6.741722&spn=0,0.019248&z=16)

The reason being, the 3rd exit (on the Newbridge roundabout) is NOT 12 o clock. It's nearly 1 o clock. So following the RSA's wording to the letter means you should be in the right hand lane.
Coincedentally, the OTHER method (http://www.lireland.com/theory/roundabouts.htm), which is the one that I was taught, dictates that every exit after the 2nd one means you should be in the right lane.

Both methods (whether you agree with one or the other) came up with the same, right, lane for that Newbridge roundabout, yet there's people who claim they're following the RSA's rules saying it's the left lane.

BigEejit

rickyjb wrote: »

Wow, this thing is still going stong:pac:

It's still the left lane btw, if you enter using the right lane and someone is (correctly) using the lane beside you starting off you'll end up cutting them off when you take the exit as there's only one lane. Which is obviously dangerous. There's no proper reason to use the right lane bar this "12 o'clock" rubbish.

And this, ladies and gentlemen, is why there are so many accidents on roundabouts.

swine

I would argue a lack of use of indicators, and incorrect indicating is far more responsible for accidents on roundabouts.

Zubeneschamali

Vertakill wrote: »

The reason being, the 3rd exit (on the Newbridge roundabout) is NOT 12 o clock. It's nearly 1 o clock.

The signage indicates that it is straight through, hence left lane.

redz11

Vertakill wrote: »

This is what I've been talking about btw, redz11.
You've told me, along with vibe666, that the RSA's method is really simple and has no ambiguity and the clock method is the best way.
To be fair, you've been civil about this unlike a certain other person.

I presented 1 roundabout that's on my route to work that I thought provoked some thinking and it's provided some confusion.
(Roundabout: http://maps.google.ie/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=Newbridge,+Ireland&aq=&sll=53.422628,-8.305664&sspn=9.40978,19.709473&ie=UTF8&hq=&hnear=Newbridge,+County+Kildare&layer=c&cbll=53.208417,-6.74162&panoid=BQjsoJ2t95DnQqrwC692Ug&cbp=12,235.09,,0,25.27&ll=53.208359,-6.741722&spn=0,0.019248&z=16)

The reason being, the 3rd exit (on the Newbridge roundabout) is NOT 12 o clock. It's nearly 1 o clock. So following the RSA's wording to the letter means you should be in the right hand lane.

OK. I've never been to that roundabout. If I were to approach it, based on the preceding signage, I would absolutely take the left hand lane.

And yes, technically, if as you say the turn is actually a right rather than a straight, I should be in the right hand lane. But sure how am I to know that? If a guard pulled me for incorrectly taking the roundabout in the left hand lane, I would fight it to the end, as I can only judge based on the signs on the approach to the roundabout.

But I suppose that, the way I interpret it is that, because the sign states that the third exit is straight ahead, it's acceptable to treat it that way, even if the angles are slightly off? Similar to if there were road markings to indicate this. I mean, you're obviously more familiar with this roundabout than me ... are you aware of any cases in which a person was penalised for being in the wrong lane?

Zubeneschamali

redz11 wrote: »

If I were to approach it, based on the preceding signage, I would absolutely take the left hand lane.

Quite right:

• Decide as early as possible which exit you need to take.
• Take note of and act on all the information available to you from traffic signs, traffic lights and road markings that direct you into the correct lane.

rickyjb

Jumpy wrote: »

If the entrance and exit has two lanes, then exit on the lane you entered on.

I agree but you still shouldn't be in the right hand lane unless there's an arrow/sign telling you to.

Vertakill

redz11 wrote: »

OK. I've never been to that roundabout. If I were to approach it, based on the preceding signage, I would absolutely take the left hand lane.

And yes, technically, if as you say the turn is actually a right rather than a straight, I should be in the right hand lane. But sure how am I to know that? If a guard pulled me for incorrectly taking the roundabout in the left hand lane, I would fight it to the end, as I can only judge based on the signs on the approach to the roundabout.

But I suppose that, the way I interpret it is that, because the sign states that the third exit is straight ahead, it's acceptable to treat it that way, even if the angles are slightly off? Similar to if there were road markings to indicate this. I mean, you're obviously more familiar with this roundabout than me ... are you aware of any cases in which a person was penalised for being in the wrong lane?

I was just curious to see what people thought on it - I'm not trying to catch anyone out.
I just wanted to see people interpretations.

The sign is wrong though in my opinion. It definitely isn't 12 o clock and it brings up all sorts of things every morning.

dougie-lampkin

muckwarrior wrote: »

As I said earlier, "unless markings say otherwise". So yeah it would be ok in the case of the graphic, but that graphic is British, the rules here state you should stay to the left.

I think you'll find they don't, this is lifted straight from the rules of the road book that was posted out to you and that you should know before setting foot in a car. It clearly shows that if there are two lanes in and two lanes out straight on, you can enter on the right and exit on the right. I've yet to meet a roundbout with two lanes in and two lanes out straight ahead that doesn't allow you follow the red line in the picture.

In fact, plenty of roundabouts allow you to use the red line as an overtaking lane, I've attached a google maps screenshot of one I meet every day. Three lanes into the roundabout, with the red line being the right-most. It's marked as straight on or right, and on the opposite side of the roundabout there are two exits, the right one must merge into the left after ~200 yards (end of the red line). Perfect example of how these are meant to be used as an overtaking lane.

You can do this on any roundabout meeting the above criteria unless road markings say otherwise, not if road markings say it's ok.

I'm not sure what you mean by "stay to the left". One would hope that you would drive on the left half of the road alright. "stay to the left" does not make sense when applied to roundabouts, unless you're one of those people who will go around a roundabout in the left lane. Fair enough if you meet an unfamiliar roundabout, you should stay in the left lane if you're going less than 180°, even if you could have used the right lane and gone straight on as in the red line. But if you're familiar with the roundabout there's nothing stopping you from doing so.

Unfortunately there is no hard and fast rule regarding roundabouts in Ireland, since there are two directly contradicting systems in use (the "number of exits" rule vs. the "clock" rule). I think you're confusing the OP's post with a roundabout that only has one lane on the "straight-on" exit. In that case, it's left lane only of course, and anybody that tries otherwise should be given 7000 penalty points :mad:

And our rules are almost a carbon copy of the British rules, saying that the graphic doesn't apply since it's a British roundabout is a bit daft. That roundabout would be taken exactly the same in both countries (except much more efficiently and with better lane discipline in England )

muckwarrior

dougie-lampkin wrote: »

I think you'll find they don't, this is lifted straight from the rules of the road book that was posted out to you and that you should know before setting foot in a car.

Perhaps you should read the text instead of just looking at the picture

RSA Website wrote:

You may follow the course shown in the illustration by the broken red line in situations where:

* the left-hand lane is only for turning left or is blocked or closed, or
* when directed by a Garda.

http://www.rulesoftheroad.ie/rules-for-driving/junctions-roundabouts/roundabouts.html

Jumpy

rickyjb wrote: »

I agree but you still shouldn't be in the right hand lane unless there's an arrow/sign telling you to.

This was not excluding commonsense or law.

R.O.R

Are the 2 roundabouts in quick succesion to each other? I have that on my way to work in the morning.

First roundabout is right hand lane for straight through (left lane is left turn only), then there's about 30 metres until the next roundabout where left is for straight on and right is for right.

Coming off the first roundabout you exit in to the left lane if you are going straight at the next roundabout, and there shouldn't be anyone on the left of you anyway (not that it stops a few muppets).

Roundabouts are at Southgate/Colpe Cross in Drogheda.

Bigcheeze

I hate the trend in using roundabout road markings. If you're unfamiliar with the roundabout and traffic is heavy, it can be hard to do anything about your lane position by the time you get to see the painted markings. If it's dark or wet you may not be able to see them at all.

The clock system with a roundabout sign is far more intelligent as you see a sign showing the roundabout layout well before you reach the roundabout and the rules are consistent. I actually think most people are too thick to interpret roundabout layouts.

Another problem with marked roundabouts nowadays is that a lot of morons assume that all traffic in the right hand lane is taking the third exit and therefore, feel they can get away with taking the third exit from the left hand lane.

Zubeneschamali

Vertakill wrote: »

The sign is wrong though in my opinion.

The sign is wrong, the RoR are wrong, the RSA is wrong...

dougie-lampkin

muckwarrior wrote: »

Perhaps you should read the text instead of just looking at the picture

http://www.rulesoftheroad.ie/rules-for-driving/junctions-roundabouts/roundabouts.html

How's about quoting all of the text, not just the bit that suits you.

Where conditions dictate otherwise, you may follow the course shown by the broken red line.

I.e., when there's an arrow in the right lane pointing straight on, thus dictating to you that the red line is acceptable. As my previous post said, I've yet to encounter such a roundabout without a straight arrow in the right-hand lane.

Welease

Vertakill wrote: »

I was just curious to see what people thought on it - I'm not trying to catch anyone out.
I just wanted to see people interpretations.

The sign is wrong though in my opinion. It definitely isn't 12 o clock and it brings up all sorts of things every morning.

Which direction are you coming from? It looks like 12 o clock to me.. Edit - I should say.. "straight on".. not 12 o clock..

Zubeneschamali

dougie-lampkin wrote: »

How's about quoting all of the text, not just the bit that suits you.

That line hasn't been in the Rules since 2006, and I don't believe that the Rules were posted to anyone at that time.:rolleyes:

dougie-lampkin

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

That line hasn't been in the Rules since 2006, and I don't believe that the Rules were posted to anyone at that time.:rolleyes:

It's on the website there, under the picture I posted. I don't have the rule book to hand, but I'd imagine it's the same as the website.

:rolleyes:

Zubeneschamali

dougie-lampkin wrote: »

It's on the website there, under the picture I posted. I don't have the rule book to hand, but I'd imagine it's the same as the website.

So it is! My apologies.

That used to be the only rule, I didn't notice that it survived as a description on the picture!

muckwarrior

dougie-lampkin wrote: »

You can do this on any roundabout meeting the above criteria unless road markings say otherwise, not if road markings say it's ok.

dougie-lampkin wrote:

when there's an arrow in the right lane pointing straight on, thus dictating to you that the red line is acceptable.

You've just contradicted yourself.

I said from the start that you can use the right lane if the road markings indicate so, but in my experience they usually don't.

Anyway, I'm not going to argue any more. The rules of the road are quite clear on the matter so I'm sure the OP's question is answered.

zynaps

Vertakill wrote: »

The reason being, the 3rd exit (on the Newbridge roundabout) is NOT 12 o clock. It's nearly 1 o clock. So following the RSA's wording to the letter means you should be in the right hand lane.
Coincedentally, the OTHER method (http://www.lireland.com/theory/roundabouts.htm), which is the one that I was taught, dictates that every exit after the 2nd one means you should be in the right lane.

Indeed, one of the slight benefits of the exit counting rule - although there's otherwise little to choose between them - is that counting up to two is very simple. On a large roundabout, possibly occluded with signs or hideous modern art, estimating whether the intended exit is slightly to the left, right or straight could be difficult; particularly if someone's following the so-called "1 o'clock" rule (where did this come from and where is it specified? I didn't notice it on the ROTR site).

OTOH, if you know in what direction your exit is, but are unsure how many intervening exits there are, then the exit numbering rule isn't helpful.

However:

swine wrote: »

I would argue a lack of use of indicators, and incorrect indicating is far more responsible for accidents on roundabouts.

Agreed, despite all the scaremongering and repeatedly overstated claims in this thread that drivers who use the "wrong" rule are morons or should be fired for potentially causing fatalities due to inappropriate lane selection.

Moreso I'd say bad awareness, observation and generally inconsiderate road behaviour is what causes roundabout accidents, rather than confusion over this rule of thumb (note that the ROTR site says that you should use the appropriate lane on roundabouts).

Would like to see actual stats on roundabout accidents though. I've only seen one once, on a tiny single lane (how?? ) roundabout at Tesco in Artane.

dougie-lampkin

Then clearly Dublin roundabouts are different from the rest of the country (which they probably are, actually). I didn't contradict myself, you left out the part where I said that in my experience I've yet to meet a two-in, two-out roundabout that doesn't allow you go through in the right lane. It only makes sense, why have two lanes on the exit otherwise?

Vertakill

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

The sign is wrong, the RoR are wrong, the RSA is wrong...

Hey, do us all a favour and don't post crap in this already ridiculously long thread?
If you have a point, make it, and leave a person the opportunity to retort.

Don't cower behind snide remarks.

Welease wrote: »

Which direction are you coming from? It looks like 12 o clock to me.. Edit - I should say.. "straight on".. not 12 o clock..

http://maps.google.ie/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=Newbridge,+Ireland&aq=&sll=53.422628,-8.305664&sspn=9.40978,19.709473&ie=UTF8&hq=&hnear=Newbridge,+County+Kildare&layer=c&cbll=53.208417,-6.74162&panoid=BQjsoJ2t95DnQqrwC692Ug&cbp=12,235.09,,0,25.27&ll=53.208359,-6.741722&spn=0,0.019248&z=16

That view would be a point of view angle of the direction I'm going.
2 exits on your left and the 3rd exit is the one I'd take.

In fairness, the reason I have some doubt over this roundabout is possibly because the angle in which you approach it at as it veers off to the left.
So if you're sitting right on the dotted white line at the end of the left and you're about to join the roundabout, you would have to crank your head to the right to see this so called 12 o clock exit.

zynaps wrote: »

Indeed, one of the slight benefits of the exit counting rule - although there's otherwise little to choose between them - is that counting up to two is very simple. On a large roundabout, possibly occluded with signs or hideous modern art, estimating whether the intended exit is slightly to the left, right or straight could be difficult; particularly if someone's following the so-called "1 o'clock" rule (where did this come from and where is it specified? I didn't notice it on the ROTR site).

OTOH, if you know in what direction your exit is, but are unsure how many intervening exits there are, then the exit numbering rule isn't helpful.

That's exactly my view on it.

zynaps wrote: »

Agreed, despite all the scaremongering and repeatedly overstated claims in this thread that drivers who use the "wrong" rule are morons or should be fired for potentially causing fatalities due to inappropriate lane selection.

Yeah this is getting pretty silly.
The same people who were claiming there wasn't an ounce of evidence to support some people's ideas and shouting everything from the rooftops have gone awfully quiet since their previous requests for our licenses to be burned and for us to be dragged out of our cars for fear of killing everyone on a roundabout.

Welease

Vertakill wrote: »

http://maps.google.ie/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=Newbridge,+Ireland&aq=&sll=53.422628,-8.305664&sspn=9.40978,19.709473&ie=UTF8&hq=&hnear=Newbridge,+County+Kildare&layer=c&cbll=53.208417,-6.74162&panoid=BQjsoJ2t95DnQqrwC692Ug&cbp=12,235.09,,0,25.27&ll=53.208359,-6.741722&spn=0,0.019248&z=16

That view would be a point of view angle of the direction I'm going.
2 exits on your left and the 3rd exit is the one I'd take.

In fairness, the reason I have some doubt over this roundabout is possibly because the angle in which you approach it at as it veers off to the left.
So if you're sitting right on the dotted white line at the end of the left and you're about to join the roundabout, you would have to crank your head to the right to see this so called 12 o clock exit.

I'd call straight on.. as near as dammit I agree on the kink to the left on the final few yards, but if you look at the roads you could draw a stright line between then to connect them.

Iwannahurl

tobsey wrote: »

YES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! It's straight on. I'm not turning right so I should be in the right lane! In the original example the driver was turning RIGHT therefore right lane and signal. Order of exits has nothing to do with it.

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

The signage indicates that it is straight through, hence left lane.

Welease wrote: »

Which direction are you coming from? It looks like 12 o clock to me.. Edit - I should say.. "straight on".. not 12 o clock..

Welease wrote: »

I'd call straight on.. as near as dammit I agree on the kink to the left on the final few yards, but if you look at the roads you could draw a stright line between then to connect them.

1. In the context of roundabouts generally (all kinds), what is the universally applicable definition of "straight through" or "straight on"?

2. What are your observations on the particular method of navigating roundabouts endorsed by all three of these driving schools?

http://www.drivingtesttips.ie/Irish-Driving-Test-Video-Tutorials.php (last three videos, bottom of page)
http://www.lireland.com/theory/roundabouts.htm
http://www.driveskill.ie/Roundabouts.htm

Iwannahurl

redz11 wrote: »

My comment would be that, yes, unfortunately, there is misinformation out there. But I will take the directions of the RSA (as quoted many times already on this thread) over guidance provided on the websites of some private driving schools.

That's interesting.

• Are you saying that the Number-of-Exits method (first-second-third-subsequent) is "misinformation"?

• Would you say that only a small number of driving schools are spreading that "misinformation"?

• What specifically does the RSA say that categorically identifies the the Number-of-Exits method as "misinformation"?