How to Use A Roundabout

ICE HOUSE

Its the RIGHT hand Lane
In all honesty how can people think that the left lane is correct?????
This thread just really is the proof and iceing on the cake that half of Irish drivers dont know what their doing on the roads.

Iwannahurl

ICE HOUSE wrote: »

Its the RIGHT hand Lane
In all honesty how can people think that the left lane is correct?????
This thread just really is the proof and iceing on the cake that half of Irish drivers dont know what their doing on the roads.

Can you explain why, in plain English, in a way that is applicable in all situations, and in a manner that does not give rise to further argument?

Welease

Iwannahurl wrote: »

1. In the context of roundabouts generally (all kinds), what is the universally applicable definition of "straight through" or "straight on"?

I would say, if the exit road is directly opposite then it would be considered as straight on.. some people would call this 12 o'clock, but I don't think the RSA themselves use that term.

Iwannahurl wrote: »

2. What are your observations on the particular method of navigating roundabouts endorsed by all three of these driving schools?

http://www.drivingtesttips.ie/Irish-Driving-Test-Video-Tutorials.php (last three videos, bottom of page)
http://www.lireland.com/theory/roundabouts.htm
http://www.driveskill.ie/Roundabouts.htm

I didnt look at the video's, but my first comment would be that those videos could not be taken as universally true because they use a number convention which does not map to the rules of the road for ALL roundabouts. I am assuming the video for "2nd Exit" is talking about a left or straight ahead exit.. and while the video may be correct for that roundabout in the video, it does not correcly apply the law for the roundabout in the OP's case (i.e. all roundabouts), because in the OP's case the "second" exit is past "straight ahead" which is explicity called out in the rules of the road as requiring entry from the right-hand lane..

http://www.rotr.ie/rules-for-driving/junctions-roundabouts/roundabouts.html

So in essence, if people want to understand the rules of the road.. they should probably read the rules of the road, and not web sites with their own interpretation of the rules

The rules of the road do not state numbered exists, or points of the clock face.. there are 3 options

1) turning left
2) going straight ahead
3) taking any later exits..

jaffa20

anotherlostie

Is there any logic to some roundabouts having markings separating the lanes, and others not having this? I travel through the roundabout joining the Fonthill Rd and New Nangor Rd daily, turning right from the Fonthill Rd onto New Nangor Rd. What invariably happens is that any car heading straight on (towards Lucan) veers towards the middle of the two lanes (that aren't marked), meaning I have to stay back to avoid them smacking into me, or me into them. I do this journey every day so am used to it now, but wonder why it isn't marked.

I thought maybe it was because there isn't a dual carriageway coming out of the two lanes on both sides, but then remembered that the roundabout on the old Cork Rd between Naas and Newbridge at Toughers is laid out the same, with no lane markings, and yet has dual carriageway on both sides of the roundabout.

Other than that if people could just indicate they were turning left when entering roundabouts, I'd be happy and I'd swear a lot less when driving too.

Zubeneschamali

Iwannahurl wrote: »

Can you explain why, in plain English, in a way that is applicable in all situations, and in a manner that does not give rise to further argument?

Because that is what the law says.

rickyjb

Are there two exit lanes? If not then you shouldn't be entering in the right hand lane it's dangerous. If there are then I'm not sure what you mean

Welease

Iwannahurl wrote: »

Can you explain why, in plain English, in a way that is applicable in all situations, and in a manner that does not give rise to further argument?

?? what is not applicable about the rules of the road? They are also in plain english..

The only arguements here are because a lot of posters simply refuse to educate themselves on the rules as stated, they continue to argue on their mistaken belief of what the rules state..

http://www.rotr.ie/rules-for-driving/junctions-roundabouts/roundabouts.html

(and because clicking seems beyond some folks )

The rules are....
On or leaving the roundabout

Unless road signs or road markings indicate otherwise, follow the steps below, when taking the first exit, going straight ahead or taking later exits off a roundabout.
Making a left turn

• Signal left and approach in the left-hand lane.
• Keep to the left on the roundabout and continue signalling left to leave.

Making a left turn
Stay in the left-hand lane, indicate "left" as you approach and continue to indicate until you have passed through the roundabout.
Going straight ahead:

• Approach in the left-hand lane but do not signal yet.
• Signal left after you have passed the exit before the one you want.
• You may follow the course shown in the illustration by the broken red line in situations where:
  • the left-hand lane is only for turning left or is blocked or closed, or
  • when directed by a Garda.

Going straight ahead
Stay in the left-hand lane, but do not indicate "left" until you have passed the first exit. Where conditions dictate otherwise, you may follow the course shown by the broken red line.
Taking any later exits

• Signal right and approach in the right-hand lane.
• Keep to the right on the roundabout until you need to change lanes to exit the roundabout.
• Check your mirrors, signal left and proceed to your exit when it is safe to do so.
• Signal left after you have passed the exit before the one you want to take.

Leaving by a later exit
Stay in the right-hand lane, indicate right on your approach and maintain this signal until you have passed the exit before the one you intend to take. Then change to the "left" turn indicator.



Please tell me how anyone who has read the rules can believe for the OP's question that anything other than the right hand lane is correct....

To point out the obvious, the crux of the left lane arguement seems to revolve around the "second exit" theory.. there is no second exit mentioned in the rules of the road.. so therefore that "rule" doesn't exist,,

Iwannahurl

Boards (and perhaps Motors in particular) regularly features threads discussing how to navigate roundabouts. Opinion seems to be divided.

IMO that is an indication that the official guidelines are not clear and comprehensive enough to inform motorists how to act in all situations.

I'm very interested in getting to the bottom of this issue (if that is remotely possible).

I'd like to ask the following:

1. In the context of roundabouts generally (all kinds), what is the universally applicable definition of "straight through" or "straight on"?

2. What are your observations on the particular method of navigating roundabouts endorsed by all three of these driving schools?

[URL="[URL]http://www.drivingtesttips.ie/Irish-Driving-Test-Video-Tutorials.php"]http://www.drivingtesttips.ie/Irish-...-Tutorials.php[/URL[/URL]] (last three videos, bottom of page)

http://www.lireland.com/theory/roundabouts.htm

http://www.driveskill.ie/Roundabouts.htm

Welease

Iwannahurl wrote: »

Boards (and perhaps Motors in particular) regularly features threads discussing how to navigate roundabouts. Opinion seems to be divided.

IMO that is an indication that the official guidelines are not clear and comprehensive enough to inform motorists how to act in all situations.

I'm very interested in getting to the bottom of this issue (if that is remotely possible).

I'd like to ask the following:

1. In the context of roundabouts generally (all kinds), what is the universally applicable definition of "straight through" or "straight on"?

2. What are your observations on the particular method of navigating roundabouts endorsed by all three of these driving schools?

http://www.drivingtesttips.ie/Irish-...-Tutorials.php[/URL] (last three videos, bottom of page)

http://www.lireland.com/theory/roundabouts.htm

http://www.driveskill.ie/Roundabouts.htm

You question has already been answered on the original thread Not sure it needs to pollute more threads

Iwannahurl

Welease wrote: »

I would say, if the exit road is directly opposite then it would be considered as straight on.. some people would call this 12 o'clock, but I don't think the RSA themselves use that term.



I didnt look at the video's, but my first comment would be that those videos could not be taken as universally true because they use a number convention which does not map to the rules of the road for ALL roundabouts. I am assuming the video for "2nd Exit" is talking about a left or straight ahead exit.. and while the video may be correct for that roundabout in the video, it does not correcly apply the law for the roundabout in the OP's case (i.e. all roundabouts), because in the OP's case the "second" exit is past "straight ahead" which is explicity called out in the rules of the road as requiring entry from the right-hand lane..

http://www.rotr.ie/rules-for-driving/junctions-roundabouts/roundabouts.html

So in essence, if people want to understand the rules of the road.. they should probably read the rules of the road, and not web sites with their own interpretation of the rules

The rules of the road do not state numbered exists, or points of the clock face.. there are 3 options

1) turning left
2) going straight ahead
3) taking any later exits..

You would say. Fair enough, but that suggests reliance on guesswork when approaching a roundabout you don't know, and where the sign may not be an accurate illustration of the physical layout.

How is "straight on/straight ahead" defined in the RoTR?

What is the procedure on roundabouts where there is no exit "directly opposite", eg an x rather than a +?

Why might ADI schools be using the number-of-exits method?

Iwannahurl

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

Because that is what the law says.

Missing the point.

What I am trying to do is elucidate people's understanding of what the law (actually the Rules of the Road) says.

Imagine you are trying to explain the correct use of Irish roundabouts to a foreigner...

Iwannahurl

Welease wrote: »

You question has already been answered on the original thread Not sure it needs to pollute more threads

Not sure it has yet.

I think much of the 'debate' is based on assumptions that have yet to be tested/elaborated.

Welease

Iwannahurl wrote: »

You would say. Fair enough, but that suggests reliance on guesswork when approaching a roundabout you don't know, and where the sign may not be an accurate illustration of the physical layout.

How is "straight on/straight ahead" defined in the RoTR?

What is the procedure on roundabouts where there is no exit "directly opposite", eg an x rather than a +?

ok.. since you seem to just want to have a pedantic arguement about it..

Show me some roundabouts where it's not obvious... We can then discuss rounabouts that actually exist...

Iwannahurl wrote: »

Why might ADI schools be using the number-of-exits method?

Why don't you ask them?.. If you are really as concerned as you make out, ring them tomorrow and explain that the methods they are showing on the web do not match the rules of the road.. Show them the photo from the OP here (or explain it), and ask which lane they would take..

They will confirm that it is indeed the right hand lane, and probably tell you that their video's/tutorial are not the exact wording of the rules of the road (because as I pointed out, there is no mention of second exist in the ROTR), but a generalisation based on the standard 4 compass point roundabouts used in some texts..

Irrespective of what they say and how they answer.. the rules of the road are quiet clear and consise on which lane should be taken in response to the OP's question.

They rules do not change because some other website has a misinterpretation of the rules..... Do you not agree?

Welease

Iwannahurl wrote: »

Missing the point.

What I am trying to do is elucidate people's understanding of what the law (actually the Rules of the Road) says.

Imagine you are trying to explain the correct use of Irish roundabouts to a foreigner...

The rules are the same as abroad.. the difference is they understand them

In seriousness i should add.. As pointed out numerous times the ROTR are quiet clear.. You seem to be questioning driving schools interpretations which is a completely different matter, and one that only they could clear up..

dougie-lampkin

For me, straight through = 180° (as indicated by the sign before the roundabout), regardless of whether it's the first exit or the ninth exit. Enter left lane and signal left after passing the previous exit, or at halfway if it's the first exit. Or, "where conditions allow", enter in the right lane, following same rules as above, and exit in the right lane.

The guidelines are not clear, nowhere on that RSA roundabout page does it mention the clock method, yet that's what we're taught when learning to drive, and that's what's expected of us in the driving test. At least I assume so, I passed two years ago with a single grade 1 fault, and not for roundabouts.

But what I have trouble with is the knobs who still play by the "first and second exit, left lane, anything else right lane" or "signal right until you reach the exit before the one you want, no matter what" or "right lane for anything but first exit" or "f*** it let's straddle both lanes and put the rear fogs on for good measure" approaches. What happens if I have an RTA because some spanner decided it was ok to go straight on using the right lane with only one exit, while I was correctly using the left lane? Or worse, go past 180° in the left lane? I'd imagine it'd be settled 50/50 on damages assuming no personal injury, as no doubt it's partially my fault for not getting out of the way.

If anybody knows the roundabout outside the regional in Limerick, count the amount of morons who won't use the left lane going straight on towards the city because they think it's still a bus lane (I was given that excuse after an elderly gent followed me until I stopped, after I "cut him off"), and 100% believe they're in the right to the point of following you until you stop and threatening you with violence. And as a side exercise, count the amount of cars that won't stay in the correct lane going the opposite direction through that roundabout for example, and take the racing line.

Fair enough the odd tool in a big car who likes to gain 8 seconds by undertaking cars in the wrong lane on a roundabout, at least they know it's wrong, they just can't help being obnoxious. But I find it slightly worrying that more than half of the drivers on the road actually believe it's fine to just langer a ton and a half of metal through a roundabout any old way at all, sure once they make it through who cares.

If the half of the population who give a toss about other road users and make an effort to drive responsibly are inconvenienced, what the heck sure. I've never in my three years motoring seen a motorist pulled over by the gardaí for incorrect or even downright dangerous roundabout usage, even when they're present (apart from the one time at the Lakes last year when a garda vectra was approaching a roundabout with a lolvo 340 diffing...never have I seen four scangers run so fast :pac:).

The RSA have ads on TV about "correct" roundabout usage, yet it only addresses the standard "plus" shaped roundabout. That's fine for the standard 4-way roundabouts, but it doesn't even mention the clock method, a far simpler and more effective approach to every other roundabout. If they don't tell us, and people don't have to do mandatory retests every few years, how are people supposed to be following the same set of rules?

And that concludes another roundabout moan :pac:

LordSutch

Iwannahurl wrote: »

Can you explain why, in plain English, in a way that is applicable in all situations, and in a manner that does not give rise to further argument?

I would hope that my explanation in post#289 would at least help the 'Right' camp.

Iwannahurl

dougie-lampkin wrote: »

For me, straight through = 180° (as indicated by the sign before the roundabout), regardless of whether it's the first exit or the ninth exit. Enter left lane and signal left after passing the previous exit, or at halfway if it's the first exit. Or, "where conditions allow", enter in the right lane, following same rules as above, and exit in the right lane.

The guidelines are not clear, nowhere on that RSA roundabout page does it mention the clock method, yet that's what we're taught when learning to drive, and that's what's expected of us in the driving test. At least I assume so, I passed two years ago with a single grade 1 fault, and not for roundabouts.

The RSA have ads on TV about "correct" roundabout usage, yet it only addresses the standard "plus" shaped roundabout. That's fine for the standard 4-way roundabouts, but it doesn't even mention the clock method, a far simpler and more effective approach to every other roundabout. If they don't tell us, and people don't have to do mandatory retests every few years, how are people supposed to be following the same set of rules?

And that concludes another roundabout moan :pac:

You make some excellent points. Thanks.

"For me". But what about for everyone else?

Who is in a position to estimate what is 180 deg on a roundabout they don't know, where they can't see the opposite side and the sign may not accurately reflect the layout?

I agree that the guidelines are not clear. And the RSA themselves say that the clock method is NOT to be used as a method of navigating a roundabout.

Some use the clock method, some use the number-of-exits method. But regardless of that, what's crucial is that all motorists use the same approach. I think you have identified a crucial flaw: different motorists are using different rules/methods. How did that arise, I wonder?

Elsewhere on Boards, people are insisting that the guidelines are clear, and all that you need to do is look at the RoTR and everything is explained. I beg to differ.

Iwannahurl

Welease wrote: »

ok.. since you seem to just want to have a pedantic arguement about it..

No no, not pedantic! And not an argument!

I believe that many if not most posters are genuine in their disagreements. IMO the fault lies with the RSA or whoever drafted the RoTR. Also there must be a reason why driving instructors differ. That is a recipe for chaos.

No, my fundamental aim is to get clarity. There are beliefs and assumptions underlying strongly held opinions, and I'd like to see them deconstructed.

Welease

Iwannahurl wrote: »

You make some excellent points. Thanks.

"For me". But what about for everyone else?

Who is in a position to estimate what is 180 deg on a roundabout they don't know, where they can't see the opposite side and the sign may not accurately reflect the layout?

I agree that the guidelines are not clear. And the RSA themselves say that the clock method is NOT to be used as a method of navigating a roundabout.

Some use the clock method, some use the number-of-exits method. But regardless of that, what's crucial is that all motorists use the same approach. I think you have identified a crucial flaw: different motorists are using different rules/methods. How did that arise, I wonder?

Elsewhere on Boards, people are insisting that the guidelines are clear, and all that you need to do is look at the RoTR and everything is explained. I beg to differ.

With respect, you beg to differ but you dont clearly explain why..

It has been stated what the rules are..

The number of exists has been show in cases to be incorrect if the second exit is past "straight ahead"..
Some will argue the 12 o clock is correct.. And it may be, but again it's not stated in the rules, so it doesnt muddy the clarity of the rules
You have linked to video/tutorials which again when put against the rules have been shown to be incorrect..

The rules are correct and clear.. the methods some other people are using to define them in a different manner have shown to be flawed (as you have demonstrated)..

But the rules themselves are not..

Can you explain which rules (that are actually in the rotr) that are not clear?

Iwannahurl

LordSutch wrote: »

I would hope that my explanation in post#289 would at least help the 'Right' camp.

Sorry, doesn't do it for me!

Welease

Iwannahurl wrote: »

No no, not pedantic! And not an argument!

I believe that many if not most posters are genuine in their disagreements. IMO the fault lies with the RSA or whoever drafted the RoTR. Also there must be a reason why driving instructors differ. That is a recipe for chaos.

No, my fundamental aim is to get clarity. There are beliefs and assumptions underlying strongly held opinions, and I'd like to see them deconstructed.

But as has been stated numerous times.. the ROTR are clear...

The interpretations that other people use have been shown to be incorrect (2nd exit etc.).. and this is possible because the rotr is actually crystal clear..

The issues that you raised previously (Driving schools videos etc.) are all open to question (which is what you did) because they clearly contradict the ROTR under certain circumstances.. The contradiction is only obvious because it's clear what the rules are.. Make sense?

The fault lies with Driving schools etc. putting up their own interpretation of the rules which may seem simpler at first, but upon deeper examination (like the OP's question) end up contradicting the rules..

zynaps

Iwannahurl wrote: »

IMO the fault lies with the RSA or whoever drafted the RoTR. Also there must be a reason why driving instructors differ. That is a recipe for chaos.

It's simple: as I posted a few pages back, the published ROTR until recently helped to cause the confusion by advising that both the 2nd-exit and clock face rules be followed. These self-contradicting guidelines were thankfully removed somewhere around May 2006.

It's understandable that a large number of driving instructors and information websites continue to promote the outdated guidelines, since it seems the RSA didn't loudly announce to the public/ADI/whatever that this had been changed.

[edit]
Note, perhaps a good would be to send a message to these sites and point out the newer, less confusing rules.

Welease

zynaps wrote: »

It's simple: as I posted a few pages back, the published ROTR until recently helped to cause the confusion by advising that both the 2nd-exit and clock face rules be followed. These self-contradicting guidelines were thankfully removed somewhere around May 2006.

It's understandable that a large number of driving instructors and information websites continue to promote the outdated guidelines, since it seems the RSA didn't loudly announce to the public/ADI/whatever that this had been changed.

[edit]
Note, perhaps a good would be to send a message to these sites and point out the newer, less confusing rules.

Correct

Iwannahurl

Welease wrote: »

With respect, you beg to differ but you dont clearly explain why..

It has been stated what the rules are..

The number of exists has been show in cases to be incorrect if the second exit is past "straight ahead"..
Some will argue the 12 o clock is correct.. And it may be, but again it's not stated in the rules, so it doesnt muddy the clarity of the rules
You have linked to video/tutorials which again when put against the rules have been shown to be incorrect..

The rules are correct and clear.. the methods some other people are using to define them in a different manner have shown to be flawed (as you have demonstrated)..

But the rules themselves are not..

Can you explain which rules (that are actually in the rotr) that are not clear?

I haven't seen any case illustrated where the number-of-exits method has been categorically shown to be incorrect.

Look at the term that comes up again and again as a bone of contention: "straight ahead".

Please bear with me. All I'm trying to do here is deconstruct assumptions.

What is "straight ahead"?

Why does it matter?

Iwannahurl

zynaps wrote: »

It's simple: as I posted a few pages back, the published ROTR until recently helped to cause the confusion by advising that both the 2nd-exit and clock face rules be followed. These self-contradicting guidelines were thankfully removed somewhere around May 2006.

It's understandable that a large number of driving instructors and information websites continue to promote the outdated guidelines, since it seems the RSA didn't loudly announce to the public/ADI/whatever that this had been changed.

[edit]
Note, perhaps a good would be to send a message to these sites and point out the newer, less confusing rules.

I have never seen the clock-face method.

I find it hard to believe that ADI schools are openly teaching an improper ('illegal') method. However, if it's just a few, then there would be a case to answer.

I would say the newer rules are not less confusing, otherwise why would there be such argument in forums like this and so much conflict on roundabouts? Muppets and kamikazes excepted...

As I've said in another thread (and there have been lots of roundabout threads on Boards!) the bone of contention seems to be the RoTR reference to "straight ahead".

What is "straight ahead" and why does it matter?*












*Note: I am not being obtuse. I believe this may be the crux of the matter, and I think it's important to ascertain whether there might be a fundamental problem with this term.

Welease

Iwannahurl wrote: »

I haven't seen any case illustrated where the number-of-exits method has been categorically shown to be incorrect.

Em, i think you are just trolling now.. did you read the OP's post in the other thread? or any of the following 1,000,000 posts

Using the second exit method (which again is not actually in the rules of the road) would indicate joining in the left hand lane.. but the second exit in the post is actually past straight ahead.. so therefore left hand lane in this case would be in contracdiction of the actual rules of the road.. The rules of the road state that for exits past "straight ahead" you join in the right hand exit..

How you could claim not see that it was incorrect in a thread with close to 350 posts about that picture is respectfully somewhat hard to fathom..

Iwannahurl wrote: »

Look at the term that comes up again and again as a bone of contention: "straight ahead".

Please bear with me. All I'm trying to do here is deconstruct assumptions.

What is "straight ahead"?

Why does it matter?

Sorry but you are the only person who has a "bone of contention" with the term straight ahead.. Not one other person (to my knowledge) has claimed to not be clear on what that means..

What do you think it means?

-Chris-

Iwannahurl wrote: »

What is "straight ahead" and why does it matter?*

That's a very strange question imho, what do you understand it to mean?

Welease

Iwannahurl wrote: »

I have never seen the clock-face method.

I find it hard to believe that ADI schools are openly teaching an improper ('illegal') method. However, if it's just a few, then there would be a case to answer.

So you have read the rules of the road?
If so, do what is being shown on those sites conform to what the rules say, especially when you consider the OP's picture?..
I'm guessing you know the answer is that.. they are indeed not 100% correct..

So.. you have seen that they are indeed incorrect.. I have to ask the question, whats "hard to believe"?

You don't have to believe anything thats written by other posters here, you have a grasp of logic, you can work out yourself that they don't explain the rules of the road correctly for all scenarios (and zynaps has posted several times why this is likely to have occurred).

Iwannahurl wrote: »

I would say the newer rules are not less confusing, otherwise why would there be such argument in forums like this and so much conflict on roundabouts? Muppets and kamikazes excepted...

There are 0 arguements from those who have actually read the rules of the road.. those who have read interpretations may differ in opinion.

As I have asked before (and you didnt answer).. given the rules of the road which I have linked and posted serveral times, would you enter via the left or right hand lane????

Iwannahurl wrote: »

As I've said in another thread (and there have been lots of roundabout threads on Boards!) the bone of contention seems to be the RoTR reference to "straight ahead".

What is "straight ahead" and why does it matter?*

Never seen anyone but yourself have an issue with understanding what the term straight ahead means...

Iwannahurl

-Chris- wrote: »

That's a very strange question imho, what do you understand it to mean?

I asked first! What do you think it means? Seriously!









I don't think it's a strange question at all. If you go back over previous posts in this thread and others (feeling masochistic?) IMO you will see that "straight ahead" comes up again and again as the central aspect of roundabout navigation that people refer to.

I believe that there may be a problem with this. In the RoTR the RSA uses "straight ahead" to describe taking a particular exit off the 'standard' roundabout that they illustrate.

But in real life there are other roundabout configurations.

So, based purely on RoTR terminology, what is "straight ahead" when there is no exit that matches that description?

This is not nit-picking. I genuinely believe there is a problem of definition and interpretation, and the fact that some driving schools are using the number-of-exits method supports this assertion, IMO.