Cost of Petrol

ei.sdraob

djpbarry wrote: »

Way to avoid the question – would it be practical for every inhabitant of Dublin to drive everywhere all the time?

So because everyone in Dublin cant get around in cars (or avail of the "great" public transport facilities), everyone in the country needs to pay high petrol prices? As a Londoner ever hear of a congestion charge??

djpbarry

ei.sdraob wrote: »

So far in this thread the justifications for high petrol prices have included:

* everyone else in EU is doing it and we need to follow like sheep
* its all the fault of IMF
* higher petrol means less driving hence better for environment :rolleyes:
* higher taxes pay for world class infrastructure and best public transport /sarcasm :rolleyes:
* prices where always high for petrol why bother changing
* people need to be punished for not cycling/walking

That’s a highly creative interpretation of the discussion that has taken place on this thread.

ei.sdraob wrote: »

For the nth time in this thread, who the hell do some people think they are to decide whats "discretionary" and whats not, why do you care where other people drive??

Because it’s simply not possible for everyone to drive everywhere all the time.

ei.sdraob wrote: »

So because everyone in Dublin cant get around in cars (or avail of the "great" public transport facilities), everyone in the country needs to pay high petrol prices?

Fine – let’s extend it to the entire country. Do you think it would be feasible for every single person in Ireland to drive any time they needed to get somewhere?

ei.sdraob wrote: »

As a Londoner ever hear of a congestion charge??

Hang on – taxes are bad but a congestion charge is ok? I thought you were opposed to “incentives”? Who are you to tell Londoners how to live anyway?

kippy

djpbarry wrote: »

That’s a highly creative interpretation of the discussion that has taken place on this thread.
Because it’s simply not possible for everyone to drive everywhere all the time.
Fine – let’s extend it to the entire country. Do you think it would be feasible for every single person in Ireland to drive any time they needed to get somewhere?
Hang on – taxes are bad but a congestion charge is ok? I thought you were opposed to “incentives”? Who are you to tell Londoners how to live anyway?

Well, can you give your interpretation of the discussion.
Of course its not possible for everyone to drive everywhere all the time.

Its as feasible as suggesting that everyone should live in a city.


There are at least two of us on this thread living within 3/4 miles of a city centre. We've both outlined how limited public transport infrastructure is where we are - we still HAVE to use our cars in our lives - it is the ONLY realistic option for the lives we lead.
Now, I could trade in my poluting diesel 11 year old car for less polluting car but I personally believe its far less polluting to hold onto the car I have till it wont physicilly work any more than shell out for a new one.


You know very well what the Londoner comment was attempting to show.

djpbarry

kippy wrote: »

Of course its not possible for everyone to drive everywhere all the time.

Of course it isn’t, but now ei.sdraob is going to chastise you for telling people how to live their lives.

kippy wrote: »

You know very well what the Londoner comment was attempting to show.

That a congestion charge could be introduced in Dublin? How is that any different to a tax (from a behavioural modification point of view)?

kippy

djpbarry wrote: »

Of course it isn’t, but now ei.sdraob is going to chastise you for telling people how to live their lives.
That a congestion charge could be introduced in Dublin? How is that any different to a tax (from a behavioural modification point of view)?

Simples,
Its a localised charge so solve a localised problem.

rodento

kippy wrote: »

Simples,
Its a localised charge so solve a localised problem.

Guess the plan is to turn the M50 in to a car park and justify another ring road:rolleyes:

ei.sdraob

djpbarry wrote: »

That a congestion charge could be introduced in Dublin? How is that any different to a tax (from a behavioural modification point of view)?

High fuel prices affect different people differently thru out the country. Yes there are people in Ireland living outside of Dublin believe it or not.

You seem to think everyone lives (or should live) in Dublin hence why I brought up a localised tax solution as used in the city you live in. Not that I support it, but at least its a more targeted solution to a specific issue you brought up.

Once again who the hell do the Greens think they are that they need to undertake in "behavioural modification" (How Orwellian :rolleyes:). Its a form of snobbery of the highest order.
As I already mentioned in this thread if the Greens and the environmental movement at large spend more concentrating on science and new technologies and less time on "behavioural modification" the planet and the people would be much better off. Us reducing carbon etc is pointless when the Chinese are building a new coal plant everyweek on the other hand if we invested in new technologies and science for example something like carbon capture or genetically modified algae to produce fuel, or something as simple as helping education programmes in developing countries the potential result to the planet would be much more effective.

This narrow obsession with taxes and "behavioural modification" is one of the reasons the Greens will be obliterated, and good ridance

aside: im watching that Green smiley face on prime time now telling us how trading on the internet will solve the unemployment problem :rolleyes:

dan_d

To be honest, djbarry, at this stage I have nothing else left to say. We could go in circles for hours arguing on this, particularly the points about how people had no choice but to buy in housing estates with no public transport services. The whole country cannot just 'live close to their place of work'.It's not physically possible everywhere, particularly Dublin. I'm simply not going to agree with you on that, and vice versa.
If you're from Dublin, and now living in London, I can only assume that you're from a part of Dublin that's relatively well served, and so have not really got a concept of what it's like to live in other areas. I have also grown up and live in Dublin, but it's north county, and there has never been a proper system....ever.
The fact still remains that consistently upping the tax on petrol will not change people's habits, and it definitely won't if no other alternaitve is provided.THe argument is not whether people are entitled to have a car or not.......it's whether the taxing the cost of fuel and doing nothing else is a realistic solution to our carbon problems (with the obvious impact being on people's pockets).
I am leaving this argument here, as I've made my points, we don't agree, and that's it....I've a number of other things to be doing with my time, and I'm not going to keep repeating myself.

djpbarry

ei.sdraob wrote: »

You seem to think everyone lives (or should live) in Dublin...

Do point out where I said that.

ei.sdraob wrote: »

Once again who the hell do the Greens think they are that they need to undertake in "behavioural modification" (How Orwellian :rolleyes:). Its a form of snobbery of the highest order.

Yes, influencing the behaviour of the electorate through taxation is an entirely new concept invented by The Green Party. I’m going to ignore the rest of your rant, if you don’t mind.

djpbarry

dan_d wrote: »

If you're from Dublin, and now living in London, I can only assume that you're from a part of Dublin that's relatively well served, and so have not really got a concept of what it's like to live in other areas.

I lived in Lucan/Clondalkin for a while. Hated it, so I moved to Killester and then into the city centre.

dan_d wrote: »

The fact still remains that consistently upping the tax on petrol will not change people's habits...

Has the tax on petrol been consistently increased?

ei.sdraob

djpbarry wrote: »

Do point out where I said that.
Yes, influencing the behaviour of the electorate through taxation is an entirely new concept invented by The Green Party.

All that the Green party have offered are taxes, their record in government speaks for itself.
Only the Green supporters on this forum have ever used the words "behavioural modification" and this is not the first time, it stinks of nanny statism and is highly condescending.
This sole approach to solving environmental problems is flawed, and is already causing splits in the environmental movement.

djpbarry wrote: »

I’m going to ignore the rest of your rant, if you don’t mind.

Do stick some organic spuds in the ears, the Greens have shown that they are good at ignoring the people of the country.

djpbarry

ei.sdraob wrote: »

All that the Green party have offered are taxes, their record in government speaks for itself.

I don’t really care.

rodento

djpbarry wrote: »

I lived in Lucan/Clondalkin for a while. Hated it, so I moved to Killester and then into the city centre.
Has the tax on petrol been consistently increased?

Guess some people don't live in the real world, everytime the cost of petrol goes up, the tax on petrol goes up, one way to look at it if pertol rises 10c at the pumps, 6c of that is taxes

Now according to labour, they plan to increase the carbon tax, if this goes ahead we could easily be paying 1.60 or higher per litre

According to Joan Burton on newstalk this morning

ei.sdraob

rodento wrote: »

Guess some people don't live in the real world, everytime the cost of petrol goes up, the tax on petrol goes up, one way to look at it if pertol rises 10c at the pumps, 6c of that is taxes

Now according to labour, they plan to increase the carbon tax, if this goes ahead we could easily be paying 1.60 or higher per litre

According to Joan Burton on newstalk this morning

Labour where recently pushing for an even more extreme version of the Climate Change Bill. One more reason not to vote for them.

dynamick

rodento wrote: »

Guess some people don't live in the real world, everytime the cost of petrol goes up, the tax on petrol goes up, one way to look at it if pertol rises 10c at the pumps, 6c of that is taxes

Now according to labour, they plan to increase the carbon tax, if this goes ahead we could easily be paying 1.60 or higher per litre

According to Joan Burton on newstalk this morning

FF proposal on carbon tax: double it
FG proposal on carbon tax: increase by 66%
Labour proposal on carbon tax: increase by 66%

VAT is added on top of carbon tax and excise duty. All 3 parties propose increasing VAT rates.

You have to love Fine Gael. They describe their increase in carbon tax as a reduction in carbon tax because it is lower than the increase proposed by Fianna Fail.

Sinn Fein proposals not out yet.

--edit
Sinn Fein proposes no rises in fuel duty or carbon tax, higher CAT and CGT a new 48% income tax rate, 1% wealth tax, lower VAT.

djpbarry

ei.sdraob wrote: »

Only the Green supporters on this forum have ever used the words "behavioural modification"...

Hey, you're the one who proposed a congestion charge for Dublin.

tails_naf

The thing I can't figure out is - the cost of a barrel of oil is less than half what it was 2 years ago - but the price at the pumps is higher!

http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=price+of+barrel+of+oil

so the base price (before the % tax) should be lower than it is, but it's not!
so someone after 'opec' and before the pumps is making a hell of a lot of money...

does anyone know the real story here?

tails_naf

tails_naf wrote: »

The thing I can't figure out is - the cost of a barrel of oil is less than half what it was 2 years ago - but the price at the pumps is higher!

http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=price+of+barrel+of+oil

so the base price (before the % tax) should be lower than it is, but it's not!
so someone after 'opec' and before the pumps is making a hell of a lot of money...

does anyone know the real story here?

its on the first page of the thread!!
its 60% tax tax tax
my friend in the US pays 0.70 usd per litre allowing more economic activity
and a quicker rebound with lower unemployment guaranteed as a direcy result of this

ei.sdraob

djpbarry wrote: »

Hey, you're the one who proposed a congestion charge for Dublin.

Nope I said a congestion charge would be a better solution for the local (keyword) issue of congestion which you brought up, taxing fuels more taxes everyone in the country including the majority who are not in Dublin.

Most people living in Dublin know well about traffic jams, rising fuel prices wont make them travel any less WHEN YOU HAVE TO GET TO PLACES and there is no proper public transport alternative, few people already wrote good posts on the trouble with transportation in Dublin further back. Maybe if the greens spend less time taxing and modifying behaviours and more time building public transport in Dublin instead of handing over billions to NAMA, the place be easier to get around.

So far every excuse for high fuel taxes has been illustrated to be a joke, there is no good justification or excuse for them in Ireland.

djpbarry

ei.sdraob wrote: »

Nope I said a congestion charge would be a better solution for the local (keyword) issue of congestion which you brought up, taxing fuels more taxes everyone in the country including the majority who are not in Dublin.

I’m not necessarily disagreeing with the idea of a congestion charge, it just seems a strange suggestion coming from someone who is apparently staunchly opposed to any government-imposed charge designed to influence behaviour.

ei.sdraob wrote: »

So far every excuse for high fuel taxes has been illustrated to be a joke, there is no good justification or excuse for them in Ireland.

I haven’t made any excuses for high fuel taxes. What I have asked (several times now), and what I have yet to receive a response to, is has there been any significant change in fuel taxation over the last 10-15 years? The reason I ask is because I suspect there has not been, so people knew fuel was expensive (and should have known it was only going to go up, on average), but still committed themselves to a car-dependent lifestyle. It’s akin to moving into an area with no schools and then complaining that there are no schools in the area to send your kids to. Now, people are obviously entitled to lobby for a reduction in the duty on fuel, but this business about being held to ransom by the same government who apparently forced them to take on their current lifestyle is utter nonsense.

ei.sdraob

Yes there has been a significant change in fuel taxation

The VAT rates have gone up (and this is charged on top of other taxes)
Also we had the introduction of carbon tax.

And there have been regular year on year increases in Excise especially on petrol, with the last budget being a good example.


Everytime base fuel prices go up due to speculation (2008) or events in Middle east (now)
or
petrol stations agreeing a price fixing cartel (galway)
or
the taxes go up as they do

the price people pay at the pumps goes up more since taxes compose 2/3rds of the final price.

juuge

In west Wicklow the average price of diesel is 139.9 with one garage charging 140.9.
I got my diesel yesterday in Dublin for 132.9 - Is that a rip off or what?

kippy

djpbarry wrote: »

I haven’t made any excuses for high fuel taxes. What I have asked (several times now), and what I have yet to receive a response to, is has there been any significant change in fuel taxation over the last 10-15 years? The reason I ask is because I suspect there has not been, so people knew fuel was expensive (and should have known it was only going to go up, on average), but still committed themselves to a car-dependent lifestyle. It’s akin to moving into an area with no schools and then complaining that there are no schools in the area to send your kids to. Now, people are obviously entitled to lobby for a reduction in the duty on fuel, but this business about being held to ransom by the same government who apparently forced them to take on their current lifestyle is utter nonsense.

You have been answered in this several times I believe.
Taxation on fuel has gone up significantly in the past 10-15 years.

Again,
have you kids/a family?

Its not at all akin to moving to an area with no schools and then complaining there are no schools.

djpbarry

ei.sdraob wrote: »

Yes there has been a significant change in fuel taxation

No, there has not. In fact, if anything, the % tax on a litre of petrol has actually (on average) been decreasing over the last decade or so. If we go back even further to the late 80’s, the tax take on a litre of petrol was as high as 70%. Granted, carbon tax will increase the tax take a bit, but in a historical context, is the take now all that high?

kippy wrote: »

You have been answered in this several times I believe.
Taxation on fuel has gone up significantly in the past 10-15 years.

No, it hasn’t.

kippy wrote: »

Its not at all akin to moving to an area with no schools and then complaining there are no schools.

I believe it is – people knew exactly what they were letting themselves in for (or at least they should have known) and yet now they’re complaining about it.

kippy

djpbarry wrote: »

No, there has not. In fact, if anything, the % tax on a litre of petrol has actually (on average) been decreasing over the last decade or so. If we go back even further to the late 80’s, the tax take on a litre of petrol was as high as 70%. Granted, carbon tax will increase the tax take a bit, but in a historical context, is the take now all that high?
No, it hasn’t.
I believe it is – people knew exactly what they were letting themselves in for (or at least they should have known) and yet now they’re complaining about it.

http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/aa-fuel-tax-rise-pushes-petrol-prices-to-all-time-record-484774.html
http://www.politics.ie/economy/120143-carbon-tax-push-petrol-prices-south-higher-than-northern-ireland.html
The past two years alone.
You can call them what you want, they are a tax, and a tax on a tax at that.
Its actually very difficult to pull any information of other years prior to that but there has in general been a cent or 2-3 added almost every year.
Even if you disregard those the tax take per litre of petrol has increased significantly in the same period.

There is a massive difference between making a conscious choice to life somewhere there are no schools within an asses roar of you then complaining about it, and complaining about the prices of a fuel that will impact on your life if far more ways than the distance to a school.
You seem to be COMPLETELY missing that point and make no attempt to address it when asked.
I can only assume you dont have a family either.

You live the idealistic "green" life by the looks of it.

djpbarry

kippy wrote: »

http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/aa-fuel-tax-rise-pushes-petrol-prices-to-all-time-record-484774.html
http://www.politics.ie/economy/120143-carbon-tax-push-petrol-prices-south-higher-than-northern-ireland.html
The past two years alone.
You can call them what you want, they are a tax, and a tax on a tax at that.

I’m not disputing that the % tax take on petrol has gone up recently, but it is totally untrue that the % tax take has been steadily increasing for the last 10 – 15 years. If anything, the opposite is true.

kippy wrote: »

Its actually very difficult to pull any information of other years prior to that but there has in general been a cent or 2-3 added almost every year.

The information is freely available:
http://www.revenue.ie/en/about/publications/statistical/archive/2008/excise.pdf

kippy wrote: »

Even if you disregard those the tax take per litre of petrol has increased significantly in the same period.

Again, I’m not disputing this.

kippy wrote: »

There is a massive difference between making a conscious choice to life somewhere there are no schools within an asses roar of you then complaining about it, and complaining about the prices of a fuel that will impact on your life if far more ways than the distance to a school.

I don’t believe so. Making a conscious decision to live a car-dependent lifestyle leaves you more exposed to the volatility of fuel prices – they’re bound to increase in the long run.

kippy wrote: »

You live the idealistic "green" life by the looks of it.

Not really, no.

kippy

djpbarry wrote: »

The information is freely available:
http://www.revenue.ie/en/about/publications/statistical/archive/2008/excise.pdf

I don’t believe so. Making a conscious decision to live a car-dependent lifestyle leaves you more exposed to the volatility of fuel prices – they’re bound to increase in the long run.
Not really, no.

I'll have a look at that report. In fairness it is the current 2-3 year spell that is "getting" at most people -seeing as everyone has less money and the economy is in recession. Raising taxation on fuel at this time appears counter productive.

I'll make this point in clearer terms.
You live in central London, you don't own a car, you use public transport - you believe you are not exposed to the volatility of fuel costs as such - as opposed to the family who have a car and have made a choice to live far from public transport.

Outside the cost of actually filling the car with petrol you are exposed to the volatility in fuel prices as much as that family.
Fuel costs has a knock on effect to the consumer - and the costs of doing business - I am surprised that you dont accept this.

And again, you fail to mention whether you have a family.

ei.sdraob

kippy wrote: »

I'll have a look at that report. In fairness it is the current 2-3 year spell that is "getting" at most people -seeing as everyone has less money and the economy is in recession. Raising taxation on fuel at this time appears counter productive.

I'll make this point in clearer terms.
You live in central London, you don't own a car, you use public transport - you believe you are not exposed to the volatility of fuel costs as such - as opposed to the family who have a car and have made a choice to live far from public transport.

Outside the cost of actually filling the car with petrol you are exposed to the volatility in fuel prices as much as that family.
Fuel costs has a knock on effect to the consumer - and the costs of doing business - I am surprised that you dont accept this.

And again, you fail to mention whether you have a family.

Inflation has gone wild in UK

With them main area inflating fastest being transport, having a knock on effect on food and services

Unless @djpbarry's salary/savings/investments are growing at more than 6% per year then he is getting poorer.

djpbarry

kippy wrote: »

Outside the cost of actually filling the car with petrol you are exposed to the volatility in fuel prices as much as that family.
Fuel costs has a knock on effect to the consumer - and the costs of doing business - I am surprised that you dont accept this.

Of course I accept it. But I also accept that tax revenue in Ireland has to increase to plug the hole in the state’s finances – targeting fuel is a relatively easy option, albeit a very unpopular one, and I can understand why the government have gone for this option. That’s not to say of course that things could not be done differently.

kippy wrote: »

And again, you fail to mention whether you have a family.

Because I don’t feel the need to divulge personal information on an anonymous internet forum (although I believe I have hinted at my living circumstances earlier in the thread). What’s the point in me telling you whether or not I have a family – you have absolutely no way of verifying whether what I’m telling you is true. Furthermore, it makes very little difference to the discussion one way or another.

kippy

djpbarry wrote: »

Of course I accept it. But I also accept that tax revenue in Ireland has to increase to plug the hole in the state’s finances – targeting fuel is a relatively easy option, albeit a very unpopular one, and I can understand why the government have gone for this option. That’s not to say of course that things could not be done differently.
Because I don’t feel the need to divulge personal information on an anonymous internet forum (although I believe I have hinted at my living circumstances earlier in the thread). What’s the point in me telling you whether or not I have a family – you have absolutely no way of verifying whether what I’m telling you is true. Furthermore, it makes very little difference to the discussion one way or another.

We all know that revenue has to increase and spending has to be cut.
Theres fcuk all point increasing revenue via having a detrimental effect on the economy as a whole, which is very plainly what these increases are doing.

You dont seem to be able to see things from the pov of someone with kids - as such, its relevant.
Fair enough it doesnt mean anything but at least we'd have an idea of your lifestyle - having kids would at least mean you have experience of that situation while not having a car.
I dont have kids(yet) so I tend not to lecture to those that have, as I havent been in that situation.