What is so different about renting in Ireland vs the Continent?

Chris_5339762

I've always heard rumour on here and in real life about the entire rental market in Ireland being fundamentally different to that on the Continent. Whether this is due to Irish people always wanting to buy a house, and how its just not culturally considered a big deal in Europe, or whether the market is designed to protect tenants in Europe but landlords here, I dont know.

Does anyone know overall what the huge differences are that I keep hearing about?

Treehouse72

Here's something from Eurostat on the EU27:

In 2008, just over one quarter of the EU-27 population lived in an owner-occupied home for which there was an outstanding loan or mortgage, while close to half of the population lived in an owner-occupied home without a loan or mortgage. As such, a total of nearly three quarters (73.6 %) of the population lived in owner-occupied dwellings, while 12.5 % lived in dwellings with a market price rent, and 13.9 % in reduced-rent or free accommodation.

http://epp.eurostat.ec.europa.eu/statistics_explained/index.php/Housing_statistics


The conventional wisdom on Irish home ownership rates seems to be around 75%. You see this figure quoted by numerous reputable sources.

johndaman66

My own basic understanding is that rents can be much much higher in certain parts of Europe than in Ireland. My sisters boyfriend recently got work in Eindhoven, Holland in the electronics design sector. Granted he is a recent graduate but he was lucky enough to fall into a pretty good position salary wise....Just as good if not better than a comparable position in Ireland with the way things have gone here recently (and assuming he was able to find a job here). However, over one third of his salary is needed to cover his rent and thats for pretty basic accommodation. Generally speaking more average apartments out there would cost him about half his salary. I have heard it mentioned to me on a few occasions that certain cities in Germany can be awfully expensive for rented accommodation also. Of course them few places I mention hardly covers the whole of Europe either obviously so my judgement may not be that particularly well informed...I acknowledge that.

To me though one third of a pretty good salary to cover rent of basic accommodation seems awfully high but I could be totally out of touch. I get the impression that things are done totally by the book and to a tee in Europe. You will always know where you stand with your landlord regarding payment/ collection of rent, payment of bills etc...Landlord almost seems to be a career choice in Europe. However, in general in Ireland it would seem being a landlord is a secondary career or something on the side if I'm making sense, at least such seems to have being the case in recent years....suppose that may be a Celtic Tiger legacy more than anything though. Things can be more vague quite often. Landlord might ring or text you to say he/ she will be around at 7:30 Friday evening to collect rent and not show up until 6:30 on Sunday evening, no one knows who's going to pay the TV license...that sort of thing.

Another observation I make is that the tenant more often than not furnishes their accommodation in mainland Europe whereas the landlord usually has the furnishings already in, in Ireland.

Jo King

The big difference between Ireland and continental Europe is that, on the continent, the legal systems are sufficiently developed, so that large companies and pension funds are willing to become landlords of residential properties.In Ireland this is not the case.banks, insurance companies, and pension funds are reluctant to get involved in leasing residential property, principally because of the legal difficulties facing landlords. Removing delinquent tenants is a slow process. The result is that letting in Ireland is carried out by mostly small-scale operators. This makes standardisation difficult.The inability to enforce contract terms by landlords means most letting is short-term, as opposed to the longer-term releases prevailing on the continent.

jester77

Speaking from experience, I would say that rent is cheaper on the continent. Some observations:

• People generally get their own place and don't share with randomers
• Apartments are mostly unfurnished, so you are free to decorate and do as you please once you return it to it's original state on departure
• Tenants have very good protection and cannot just get asked to leave, even if they are not paying the rent. Long legal process to get rid of bad tenants.
• Rents are fairly priced are indexed against a city standard, e.g. you pay x € per square meter based on a city index for the area where you are living

gurramok

To add, here if you are single you are expected to share with friends/strangers to afford rent. On the continent you get your own place which is more value for money. Here its common to buy on your own or as a couple.

Here, if you fail to pay your rent within a short period of time or the landlord decides to sell your home, you are out on the street. If you had a mortgage, it takes at least a couple of years to throw you out due mostly to better welfare protection and the mortgage moratoriums of repossession.

Here, a landlord can chance their arm at deposit retention through the illegal charging for cleaning for example. They(the section of landlord chancers) think they can enter your property at any time illegally despite the house being your home. Better enforcement of the current rules would be a start to make it worthwhile renting long term here.

enda1

jester77 wrote: »

Speaking from experience, I would say that rent is cheaper on the continent. Some observations:

• People generally get their own place and don't share with randomers
• Apartments are mostly unfurnished, so you are free to decorate and do as you please once you return it to it's original state on departure
• Tenants have very good protection and cannot just get asked to leave, even if they are not paying the rent. Long legal process to get rid of bad tenants.
• Rents are fairly priced are indexed against a city standard, e.g. you pay x € per square meter based on a city index for the area where you are living

I'd basically agree with this.

Though with a few caveats.

When you sign a lease, you and the landlod will perform what's know as an "Etat des lieux" - "the state of the place". This is a legal agreement on the condition of the accommodation. When you leave the rental, you will inspect the accommodation with the landlord and perform another "Etat des lieux". The difference between these then will result in the amount of your deposit you lose (can even be higher than the deposit too of course).

These agreements are very dangerous as if you miss something (a crack in a tile, something not working etc. etc.) then you can not prove that it was like that when you entered and then the landlord can charge you for it. I've heard one couple have to pay 10k for a new floor after arguing with the landlord and going to court over it.

Basically despite the fact that it appears as if you have more legal rights, the landlord does too, and with your rights you also have responsibilities.

Its very difficult to leave a lease early too. Where I am you must give 3 months notice and a 3 month fine if leaving in the first year, 2 month fine in the second, 1 month in the third. But always a 3 month notice aswell. Madness.

Ireland is basically much easier with more freedom but with less security and generally higher prices for inferior accommodation.

Solair

It's impossible to generalise about "the continent" as rental arrangements vary as much between continental countries as they do between any continental country and Ireland. In fact, there can even be enormous differences from region to region.

My own experience of renting in Spain was very similar to Ireland. Over priced, and under regulated. However, that's possibly also symptomatic of Spain's insane property market which is a mirror image of Ireland too.

In general in France, Germany and much of Northern Europe (other than the UK and Ireland) there is a much more developed rental system and the prices are much more reasonable and everything's geared-up towards long term rental.

The quality of accommodation on offer is usually better and you are typically able to furnish and carry out most superficial decoration yourself.

In Ireland and Britain renting is most definitely seen as something that one only does because one cannot buy a house. Although that attitude may have to change, particularly in IReland in the current economic mess.

fricatus

Treehouse72 wrote: »

Here's something from Eurostat on the EU27:

In 2008, just over one quarter of the EU-27 population lived in an owner-occupied home for which there was an outstanding loan or mortgage, while close to half of the population lived in an owner-occupied home without a loan or mortgage. [BOLD]As such, a total of nearly three quarters (73.6 %) of the population lived in owner-occupied dwellings, while 12.5 % lived in dwellings with a market price rent, and 13.9 % in reduced-rent or free accommodation.[/BOLD]

http://epp.eurostat.ec.europa.eu/statistics_explained/index.php/Housing_statistics


The conventional wisdom on Irish home ownership rates seems to be around 75%. You see this figure quoted by numerous reputable sources.

So let me get this straight... we hear from numerous commentators that there's something wrong with the Irish psyche, due to English landlords back in the day, or whatever, and we have to give up our obsession with wanting to own a house, and start renting a lot more, like the continentals do, blahdy-blah...

...However the actual figures show that 73.6% of said continentals own their own home (or are on a track to doing so, because there's a mortgage outstanding on it), and we're around the 75%... so there's nothing at all unusual in our rate of home ownership?

Why then isn't this notion challenged then when it's parroted by commentators blaming all the current ills on our "obsession" with owning a home?

Treehouse72

fricatus wrote: »

Why then isn't this notion challenged then when it's parroted by commentators blaming all the current ills on our "obsession" with owning a home?

The first answer to that question is obvious: this was used as yet another rationalisation for the bubble. It perfectly fed into the narrative that it was "natural" for property prices to be rising in Ireland because, ahem, Ireland is different.

The second thing to note is that the average for Europe is greatly boosted by the new accession Eastern European states. So in fairness to the bogus argument I criticise above, it is somewhat more true when you compare Ireland to traditional Western Europe (although we are still behind Italy and Spain in home ownership).

Nonetheless, I think the overall net result is that the argument is in large degree bogus.

Distorted

I've rented as a student in Holland and as a young professional in Munich, Germany. The markets there are more for long term rentals and apartments tend to be sparsely furnished - in Germany some tenants even take their kitchens with them when they move! It seemed much harder to find accommodation as there were more people looking at a property, and because of this, if you find a good one, although it might not have all the mod cons you would want, you tend to put up with it without too much moaning. Generally I would say there is more of an emphasis on self sufficiency and not phoning the landlord to fix small problems. I remember my friend's apartment in Germany which was considered very desirable as it had a huge living room in a particularly good area, however the radiators were burning to the touch and unguarded and burnt you if you touched them - but this was put up without question as a quirk of the building. I however only let from small landlords, not corporate lets. In Germany also, there is usually a "hausmeister" for a block of apartments, who will let you know the "rules" that apply and if you were disruptive, you would pretty soon be made aware that it was not acceptable!

JuliusCaesar

It wasn't always the case that Irish people had such a high rate of owning their residence. In the early 1900s, it was cheaper to rent and so people rented and moved quite frequently. I think if you look at James Joyce's family, they moved every couple of years. Property prices were high, rents were low, and so it would take forever to make your money back as a landlord. Most of the houses in Rathmines/Ranelagh were built one and two at a time, and so have different layouts inside even though the outside looks the same.

However, I do think that the lack of security for residential tenants made renting increasinly unattractive. Commercial tenants have many more rights usually.