Bloody Finnegans Wake

Valmont

Less than a few months ago I proclaimed I would never even attempt to read something so obscure and potentially farcical as Finnegans Wake yet in the last week I somehow managed to buy a battered copy for 65p, sign up for a reading group devoted to the book over the next few weeks or so, and decided to give the infernal thing as good a rollicking as I can.

If anyone else was thinking of reading it, or has done, maybe we could share our frustrations and interpretations here? I personally look forward to seeing if it can inspire some of the bizarre dream sequences I've read about...

Permabear

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Eliot Rosewater

Hmmm ... I'd be more than willing to join you on such a crusade, however I haven't read Ulysess (does that matter?), and there's no such reading group around Cork, so I might not have that much to offer you!

Permabear - is it worth putting a bit of preparatory work into Finnegans Wake? Could I read it "off the cuff", with maybe an annotations book on the side? I think you read it first over a long period, taking 2 pages a night?

I think I may be too young though, in that I haven't read lots, to make this worthwhile. So I finish with another hmmm....

John

Eliot Rosewater wrote: »

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Finnegans Wake is a standalone work, having read some of Joyce's other books might make some sequences make a bit more sense (or a kind of sense) but not necessary in the slightest.

Permabear - is it worth putting a bit of preparatory work into Finnegans Wake? Could I read it "off the cuff", with maybe an annotations book on the side? I think you read it first over a long period, taking 2 pages a night?

An annotations book isn't a bad idea but to be honest, I think you'd be best reading it cold and then reading about it. That's what I did (with occasional google searches when I was finding it extra-tough), I read the whole thing then read a few books on Joyce/FW. It all depends on whether you think you'll read it more than once (I've read it twice so far, I found the second reading harder as I was trying to put everything I had read about it together with the text).

A reading group is a good idea, I'd love to do one myself. Where are you based Valmont?

KnifeWRENCH

I'd love to try reading Finnegan's Wake some time but have yet to attempt Ulysses, which has been on my bookshelf (and by bookshelf, I mean floor) for a while now. (I also have a copy of Dubliners that I haven't read yet. Along with several other books, gathering dust, waiting to be read....)

The only Joyce I've read so far is Portrait of the Artist and I wasn't overly mad about it tbh. Still, Finnegan's Wake sounds like a much more exciting prospect, so I'll still endeavour to try it at some point. I just have to pick up a copy somewhere.

Permabear

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squeakyduck

I've read Dubliners, Ulysses, Portrait and most of Chamber Music.

I picked up FW over Christmas and read a page or two and was BOGGLED. I'll pick it up again soon! I'm currently reading the biography on his daughter, I started it just after Christmas and I'm only reading it bits and pieces at a time!

I read Ulysses before Portrait, but when I finished Portrait things made more sense to me so when I read Ulysses again at certain parts something in my head would click and I'd go "ah yeah I get that now!"

Valmont

Eliot Rosewater wrote: »

I think I may be too young though, in that I haven't read lots, to make this worthwhile. So I finish with another hmmm....

We've all seen your reading log, you sandbagger. :pac:

John wrote: »

A reading group is a good idea, I'd love to do one myself. Where are you based Valmont?

I fled our sinking Shamrock a few months ago and settled in the UK. I figured this is as good as a chance as any to get to grips with the book.

KnifeWRENCH wrote: »

The only Joyce I've read so far is Portrait of the Artist

I've only read A Portrait of the Artist as a Young Man and I did love it very much, surprisingly so, although I'm not sure why. Oh, I remember, a lifetime of schooling in Ireland had almost led me to believe that all Irish novels involve a drunken father, a farm, and a dysfunctional family, and various permutations of those themes.

I have my first meeting on Thursday so I shall post something then, hope some of you give it a go too!

Eliot Rosewater

Valmont wrote: »

We've all seen your reading log, you sandbagger. :pac:

Well in my defence I was comparing myself to Permabear who reads about one book for every hot meal!

mikemac

Valmont wrote: »

Oh, I remember, a lifetime of schooling in Ireland had almost led me to believe that all Irish novels involve a drunken father, a farm, and a dysfunctional family, and various permutations of those themes.

I was told years ago that the only two Irish authors with benevolent Irish fathers in their books were the Vicar of Wakefield by Irishman Oliver Goldsmith and the Barrystown Trilogy in modern day.
I reckon it was a lie but my English teacher was a legend

Possibly FW is a story best heard and not read like that alcoholic Dylan Thomas.

Newstalk Radio got an actor a few years back to read some James Joyce and he was brilliant, gave real life to it.

So I'd say I wouldn't read a novel but I'd find an audiobook with a top actor narrating it

squeakyduck

I love Jim Norton reading Ulysses....he has a fun voice!

Plowman

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Permabear

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Valmont

DF, did you study Joyce during your postgraduate studies in literature?

In other news, I've convinced my housemate to attend the reading group with me. I capitalised on having him read my copy of Portrait... quite recently:D

Permabear

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Queen-Mise

you are inspiring me to read it. Two pages a night for a year is worth it.

squeakyduck

I know that the James Joyce centre do have a FW reading group. They put updates on their facebook page, I don't think it is the whole book just selected parts but it might shine a light on the book as a whole....

Cavehill Red

Top tip for Wake noobs - get yourself a copy of Antony Burgess's 'A Shorter Finnegans Wake'.

Now, you're not going to like the sound of this, but trust me on it - Anto basically hacked out about 2/3 of the book, leaving a F+F edition of a few hundred pages, with explanatory passages in between.

Is it a Readers Digest version? No, more like a film edit, I'd argue. Not everyone is able for the Director's self-indulgent 5 hour cut of their cult movie. But most can handle a more accessible 2 hour cinema release edit, assuming that the narrative isn't damaged.

What you get with Burgess's book is this plus more - the old rogue's own introduction and analysis to what is, it must be said, a highly difficult text (assuming you're not fluent in most European languages, graphically familiar with the topography of Dublin, au fait with the philosophies of medieval Catholic heretics, and chapter and verse on Irish history.)

Burgess knows his Joyce. No doubt about it. And he knows his Finnegans Wake too. He's possibly one of the few people apart from Joyce to fulfil the criteria of this book's ideal reader (polyglot, polymath, erudite, Hibernophile, lapsed Catholic.)

If you can make it through this text with Anto's help, you'll be set up for tackling the main event, and confident that you're getting it too.

He's not the only person to have abridged the text. But he is the best, and he's the only one who abridged the original typeset with the blessing of the publisher.

Cavehill Red

feelingstressed wrote: »

I was told years ago that the only two Irish authors with benevolent Irish fathers in their books were the Vicar of Wakefield by Irishman Oliver Goldsmith and the Barrystown Trilogy in modern day.
I reckon it was a lie but my English teacher was a legend

Possibly FW is a story best heard and not read like that alcoholic Dylan Thomas.

Newstalk Radio got an actor a few years back to read some James Joyce and he was brilliant, gave real life to it.

So I'd say I wouldn't read a novel but I'd find an audiobook with a top actor narrating it

By far the best audio version is this - http://www.themodernword.com/joyce/audio_5.html
Not cheap, though for the full unabridged version. I had the pleasure of hearing a live performance of some of it once by Healy. Really opened up some of the puns and the aural structure of the book.
It's a soundscape of language as much as it's anything else.

Denerick

Permabear wrote: »

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I read somewhere that this tendancy was evidence that Joyce suffered from a mild form of pyschosis - seeing patterns everywhere, along with endless rhyme associated with words. Any truth to this?

When madness and genius run so close together like this, I prefer to think the writer is more genius than mad, by the way

Asphyxia

This thread has inspired me to borrow my sister's copy and attempt to read it I like Joyce's work so hopefully it wont be too hard to read. I'm in the middle of Ulysses right now so might start it next.

Valmont

Well, it has been an interesting week of reading and I am starting to appreciate the otherwordly allure of Finnegans Wake. Our first meeting was both disheartening and exciting. My housemate and I (dragged along) were very impressed at the sizeable group outside the room where the meeting was to be held and when the clock turned five fifteen and not one of them followed us into the room (literature students seems to have abandoned books and attend Mad Men watching groups instead) we both sighed in respect to the memory of high culture but were happy that we would have the group all to ourselves.

The group was chaired by two Phd students, one of whom asked me to begin with: "How many times have you read Finnegans Wake?"! Frightening start aside, I asked them about why they read it, how they read it, what strategies they used, if that word could even be applied, and I came away from the discussion feeling that the Wake is not a book in the usual sense, starting from page one and proceeding doesn't seem to really work too well and if you are hoping for a plot to follow throughout, forget about it.

I have my own method now where I use blue tags to mark my occasional sequential reading, pink marks for the sections that are funny when I read them out load and green marks for my random dives into different sections. I must admit this is working quite well for me and I am enjoying it. I was told by the students that if you feel tired or annoyed it's probably time to put it down for the night.

I am starting to understand the obsession and sense of challenge that the Wake gives rise to. For example, I've been listening to Christy Moore singing Finnegan's Wake far too often lately and I read Alice's Adventures in Wonderland in one sitting (really!) on Tuesday (long days testing in an automated lab) after finding a reference to her on page 270...Perhaps more people will turn up tomorrow but I look forward to reading out the bizarre passage that starts on the end of page 5 and continues into 6 and discussing the Alice in Wonderland parts, haven't been able to find any more but shure who knows.

ps. The word pun has temporarily lost all meaning

Eliot Rosewater

Thanks for the update Valmont - please keep them going!

Digression: Alice in Wonderland is fantastic - some funny maths stuff going on...

Permabear

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Eliot Rosewater

I suppose you could draw a further comparison between them: many people consider Finnegans Wake to be a pile of nonsense. Virginia Woolf said of Alice's Adventures in Wonderland "Down the groves of pure nonsense we whirl laughing, laughing..." To the untrained eye it's pure meaningless nonsense. It takes a bit of consideration to see beyond the veneer.

Enkidu

Eliot Rosewater wrote: »

Digression: Alice in Wonderland is fantastic - some funny maths stuff going on...

I don't know if you will find this interesting or not, but Carroll was not very well liked by the mathematical community, particularly people like G.H. Hardy. Carroll was part of a movement which held back mathematics in Britain for a long period of time and it took the efforts of people like Hardy to bring modern analysis, group theory and abstract algebra from the continent.

Valmont

Last week's meeting was cancelled...these humanities Phd students, very busy apparently...they were probably off making sure that their £13,500 a year stipend isn't going to waste...I'll furnish a full update tomorrow evening but I just thought I would mention that I was watching an episode of the wonderfully awful and mysterious Jonathan Creek when the wake popped up (Yes, Jonathan Creek)

Jonathan was trying to get to the bottom of a mystery in a house called "Ghosts Forge" (see where this is going?) Jonathan explained to us earthlings that the apostrophe was left out of Ghosts Forge for the same reasons it was left out of Finnegans Wake, to convey another meaning of sorts. Yes, Jonathan, that would seem obvious. But what, pray tell, did the Creek have to tell us about Finnegans Wake? That it could mean Finnegans (plural) wake, which, I hate to admit, sent me straight to my bag to follow up on my investigations into the wake as a dream (delightfully glib, I know). I just thought you may like to see another piece of Wake related madness.

To reiterate the insanity (for myself really), an episode of Jonathan Creek managed to wheel me towards Finnegans Wake for what should have been an evening of brainless mystery television.

Jonathan Creek. Finnegans Wake. Hmm.

Worringly, I could probably get Phd funding over here to look at the connections between the two. Honestly, some of the topics on show... That's a topic for another thread.

Permabear

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Vunderground

I'd recommend Joseph Campbell's A Skeleton Key To Finnegans Wake and an audio of some kind.
I would usually say to people coming to Joyce to think of it as fun, but the people who have contributed to this thread make it sound that way which is so refreshing

Nhead

Right, reading this has my back for another stab at FW. Valmont you have to keep us updated on the meetings. It is, beyond a shadow of a doubt, the strangest book I have ever tried to read.

Nhead

Permabear wrote: »

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Do you think that Joyce is making a statement about the unreliability of language to express ideas clearly?