Labeling and children waiting assements and resources.

Cat Melodeon

mariaalice wrote: »

how come your are more likely to get a diagnosis of some kind of behavior problem or learning difficulty if you are from a disadvantage background....

Aruba08 wrote: »

really??? can I ask what exactly you base this on?? Statistics?

I know children and adults with all types of disability and "label" from all different backgrounds.
How do you define a disadvantaged background?

Actually, mariaalice is right here. Children from 'disadvantaged' backgrounds are more likely to be diagnosed with some sort of learning difficulty, but not for the reasons you might think at first glance.

First off, 'disadvantage' can refer to a lower income family, an ethnic or religious minority, a single-parent family, a child from a foster family or anyone who qualifies for a medical card. This is not a judgment on my part, it is how educational and social researchers generally define disadvantage. It usually relates to educational outcomes rather than to any 'deficit' within a home. Plenty of children from such backgrounds do extremely well at school, but there is a pattern in general that children from such backgrounds do less well at school, even if they have the same abilities as their better off or within-the-norm counterparts.

The key reason is that children from such backgrounds are much more likely to be profiled as problematic and sent for assessment than their counterparts. For example, Travellers are 8 times more likely to be assessed, even though they are only equally as likely as their settled counterparts to have a learning difficulty when difficulties arising from nomadism (not as common as it once was) are controlled for. The same for children of single-parent families or on low incomes. It's called disproportionality and generally arises from racial or class profiling by teachers and other educationalists who generally belong to the middle classes and don't always recognise the difference between the symptoms of certain disorders and differences arising from cultural or social background. It's not just an Irish problem, it's common in all societies.

There is a huge body of work that explores how the schooling system in Ireland serves to advantage the privileged and to maintain the status quo. Apologies if I come across as a bit of a Marxist, I've worked in the area of educational disadvantage for a while now and it's one of my hobby horses. If anyone wants to read some accesible reports on inequalities in the Irish system (including statistics!), look up work by Anne Lodge (NUIM), Kathleen Lynch (UCD) or Emer Smyth of the ESRI.

crofty28

Hi all,
I'm so happy to see this thread, i wud have loved to have this resource when our journey began! My daughter is 8... we 1st had her referred at 3, although signs that her behaviour wasn't right were apparent since she was 2, this was difficult to diffrentiate from the terrible 2's! Anyway, we were reffered to the CAMHS team.. took around 10 months. Worked with a social worker & childcare worker, no assessment, for around a year, no help. UNtil primary school began & teacher noticed sumthin wasn't rite, not much happened. School was absolutely fantastic (depends A LOT on the teacher tho!!!). School paid 400euro for psychological assessment. My daughter was shown to be gifted, yet socially extremely withdrawn & with definite behavioural problems.She was finally diagnosed with ADHD age 7. We were so relieved to have a label!!! Not only did we as a family understand wat was going on, but teachers, other parents and every1 else did aswell! 2 medications later.... we were told it isn't ADHD, as neither meds worked. Aspergers was another consideration, yet she didn't tick all the boxes! Anyway, to get to the point, after many years of struggling, she now has an SNA part-time(which is extremely difficult to get these days!) and resource hours. Teacher is absolutely fantastic, has a careplan written & has made such a difference to my little lady.
So keep pushing for assessments, its the only way to get anywhere. & as All of us parents of children with difficulties know, a label is a great thing, as both ourselves & other people understand our childs difficulties, & they recieve the help & esources they need!!! Please PM me any1 who needs advice & support on this. I knew then & know now, wat a struggle this is!! Good luck all x:)

SugarHigh

Moaning about the over diagnosis of learning disabilities is just the latest pseudo intellectual fad. They are never able to show how they can instantly assess if a child has a learning disability better than a trained professional who took months to form their diagnosis.

It's just a sneering unfounded cynicism that boosts their own ego.*

Cat Melodeon

SugarHigh wrote: »

Moaning about the over diagnosis of learning disabilities is just the latest pseudo intellectual fad. They are never able to show how they can instantly assess if a child has a learning disability better than a trained professional who took months to form their diagnosis.

It's just a sneering unfounded cynicism that boosts their own ego.*

Sorry?

Could you expand on that?

liliq

SugarHigh wrote: »

.Moaning about the over diagnosis of learning disabilities is just the latest pseudo intellectual fad. They are never able to show how they can instantly assess if a child has a learning disability better than a trained professional who took months to form their diagnosis.

+1 for the request to expand on that? Am not sure if I am either misreading or misunderstanding what is being said in this statement, or if I'm reading it correctly.

Who claims that they can "instantly assess" if a child has a learning disability?

SugarHigh

liliq wrote: »

+1 for the request to expand on that? Am not sure if I am either misreading or misunderstanding what is being said in this statement, or if I'm reading it correctly.

Who claims that they can "instantly assess" if a child has a learning disability?

It was a response to this sort of though process.

I am not at all saying that there are no kids who legitimately have ADD or dyslexia, but I think they are over diagnosed. I did a few weeks in a primary school last year and I was put helping the table of all the kids with learning disabilities/behavior problems and about half the table was seriously trying their best and didn't mean to start talking or get distracted and the other half were just brats

How does she know they don't have a genuine learning disability?

People do the same thing with depression where they claim someone isn't really depressed even if they have been professionally diagnosed. They convince themselves they are somehow able to assess this based on almost nothing then rant about how depression is over diagnosed.

liliq

SugarHigh wrote: »

How does she know they don't have a genuine learning disability?

That claim isn't made-

I am not at all saying that there are no kids who legitimately have ADD or dyslexia, but I think they are over diagnosed.

Expressing the opinion that there is over- diagnosis is far from saying there is nobody who has a genuine learning disability.
It also far from making an instant assessment or diagnosis of the presence of one.

For the record- I don't personally know whether or not there is over- diagnosis. I find it hard to believe that there is when I can read on this thread how many parents struggle to help their child. I'm sure there are increased numbers of people being diagnosed with certain learning difficulties, but I think this is probably more due to advances in education and educational psychology over the last I- don't- know- how- many years (if not the infrastructure to fully implement the aids and support needed to put to use this knowledge) rather than people being diagnosed without much consideration.
One positive for the collective if not just the individual is that this increase in diagnosise in any kind of disability has also led to "inclusive learning" being on the increase, which is never a bad thing- not everyone learns the same way and everyone can benefit from learning being made as accessable as possible.

SugarHigh

I never said she claimed no one has a genuine learning disability. I was talking about when she claimed half the kids at the table didn't have a disability "they were just brats". She made a quick assessment which she isn't qualified to do.

mariaalice

This is a very emotive topic for people so i am going to say again this about my experience.

A good example of what i am talking about is in my daughters school when you go in to first year they do a variety of subjects and then in second year they pick subjects for junior cert, in first year they have to do two foreign langues they pick two form German, Spanish, French, BUT if you come in to first year with a comprehension age of less than twelve you only have to do one foreign language and you get extra help with English...now i am sure some people think that a wonderful idea but if that had happened to me it would have relay knocked my confidence being a teenage is tricky enough without having to feel you are behind everyone else.
The thing is i though school was as hard for everyone as it was for me because i didn't realize i had a problem until i was in my late teens.
My dyslexia is mild and it is with spelling that i have a problem and yet i could read at 4.


We have had a student with sever dyslexia on a placement with us in work and she was having a very real struggles no matter how much she was helped. The problem i felt was that she had got very poor career guidance... she had come in as a mature student to a third level course that involved huge amounts of written work and assignments.

cynder

Just back from seeing the speech therapist, he did not receive speech therapy because he was having a full blown 45 min temper tantrum.

She said that he will have his assessment done in march for school and will have a full asd assesment and in the meantime i am to fill out a Connors assessment (?) for adhd and he is also being referred to camhs under the assesment of need.

So looks like the ball is finally rolling, she said with people leaving and places not being filled that he fell into a black hole but is at the top of the list.

Nevyn

I have done the Connor's assesment 3 times so far.
It's a standard and the last two had parts for me the kiddie shrink and teacher.
It asked a series of questions and you answer them on a scale of 1 to 5.
It was hard to honestly fill it out the first time, I didn't want to make my kids out to be a bad kid, or admit how hard we were finding it to cope. There was a big difference between the first time results and the last time I did it, some things haven't changed, will never change but we have learned to manage and cope better.


http://www.mhs.com/product.aspx?gr=cli&prod=conners3&id=overview

Conners 3rd Edition™ (Conners 3™) is the result of four years of extensive product research and development. School psychologists, clinicians, psychiatrists, pediatricians, child protection agencies, and mental health workers can count on the Conners 3 to be a reliable and dependable tool capable of supporting them in the diagnostic and identification process.

Based on the solid findings and key elements of its predecessor, the Conners’ Rating Scales–Revised (CRS–R™), the Connors 3 offers a thorough assessment of ADHD. The Conners 3 now addresses comorbid disorders such as Oppositional Defiant Disorder and Conduct Disorder. Each parent, teacher, and self-report form is available in full-length and short versions.

Professionals will benefit from the following enhancements:

* A large representative normative sample based on the 2000 U.S. census data
* A refined focus on ADHD in school-age children with a new age range (6–18 for parent and teacher forms, and 8–18 for self-report forms)
* Strengthened Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders: Fourth Edition (DSM-IV-TR™) connections
* Clear applications in clinical settings that help identify children with behavioral difficulties
* Step-by-step guidance on how to use the tool in behavioral treatment and progress monitoring Spanish versions of the parent and self-report forms

How to Use the Assessment
The Conners 3 forms include multiple components that are available in paper-and-pencil or computerized format. The rating scales are available for parent (Conners 3–P), teacher (Conners 3–T) and self-report (Conners 3–SR). As well, the Connors 3 is available in short version. In addition, the Conners 3 also includes two auxiliary scales: the Conners 3 ADHD Index (Conners 3AI™) and the Conners 3 Global Index (Conners 3GI™). Assessment Reports, Progress Reports, and Comparative Reports are also available to help gather and record information, summarize results and facilitate discussion.

Lady Chatterton

grindelwald wrote: »

Just back from seeing the speech therapist, he did not receive speech therapy because he was having a full blown 45 min temper tantrum.

She said that he will have his assessment done in march for school and will have a full asd assesment and in the meantime i am to fill out a Connors assessment (?) for adhd and he is also being referred to camhs under the assesment of need.

So looks like the ball is finally rolling, she said with people leaving and places not being filled that he fell into a black hole but is at the top of the list.

Sent you a PM a few minutes ago before I spotted this post. I'm so delighted that things are finally happening for you and your little boy.

Chuchoter

Didn't realize this was going to turn into such a huge thing and I'm sorry if I upset a lot of people. I was in no way saying that these things don't exist, I know they exist and I realize all the crap people have to go through to get the things they need.

What I meant was that I don't know if they should be diagnosed all the time. Had I or my friend who went on to get some of the highest language results in the country been diagnosed with dyslexia at a young age, my confidence would have been crushed and I would have just resigned myself to saying 'Thats too hard for me' or 'They're all smarter than me'. Her dyslexia wasn't something that was a massive obstacle to her, it was minor enough that she was have been able to overcome it on her own.

Nevyn

There are people I know who are dyslexic who didn't mange to figure out ways to overcome it on thier own, they needed the help and lessons from a professional to do it.

I do know finding out I was dyslexic made a huge difference to me, I wasn't stupid, there was a reason my spellings were so crap. No one could understand why I was speed reading in primary school several years above my level and was well able to quote full poems but my spellings were appaling. I berated myself for years thinking I was thick and was called lazy and knocked by so many teachers it was crippling to my self esteem.
Getting tested in college was a gods send.

astra2000

crayolastereo wrote: »

Didn't realize this was going to turn into such a huge thing and I'm sorry if I upset a lot of people. I was in no way saying that these things don't exist, I know they exist and I realize all the crap people have to go through to get the things they need.

What I meant was that I don't know if they should be diagnosed all the time. Had I or my friend who went on to get some of the highest language results in the country been diagnosed with dyslexia at a young age, my confidence would have been crushed and I would have just resigned myself to saying 'Thats too hard for me' or 'They're all smarter than me'. Her dyslexia wasn't something that was a massive obstacle to her, it was minor enough that she was have been able to overcome it on her own.

Firstly I do realise you didnt mean to offend, and I am not trying to offend you but it does appear that you have no real knowledge in this area. I am not saying that I have a lot more than you, but having gone through the process of having my child assessed, I have seen first hand that the process that has to be gone through. Teachers and parents can speculate on what the particular childs problems are but it will carry no weight, the child has to be seen by a psycologist who will do the assesment and reach a conclusion on wheather or not the child has a problem.
You mentioned that you would have been crushed to have been diagnoided with dyslexia, but I have understood that you dont have dyslexia so that really doesnt make sense at all. You have not gone through the experience of having dyslexia so your not in a position to say wheather or not been diagnoised would be a crushing experience or not, does the friend you mention suffer from dyslexia.

Chuchoter

astra2000 wrote: »

Firstly I do realise you didnt mean to offend, and I am not trying to offend you but it does appear that you have no real knowledge in this area. I am not saying that I have a lot more than you, but having gone through the process of having my child assessed, I have seen first hand that the process that has to be gone through. Teachers and parents can speculate on what the particular childs problems are but it will carry no weight, the child has to be seen by a psycologist who will do the assesment and reach a conclusion on wheather or not the child has a problem.
You mentioned that you would have been crushed to have been diagnoided with dyslexia, but I have understood that you dont have dyslexia so that really doesnt make sense at all. You have not gone through the experience of having dyslexia so your not in a position to say wheather or not been diagnoised would be a crushing experience or not, does the friend you mention suffer from dyslexia.

She got diagnosed in 2nd year

sam34

crayolastereo wrote: »

What I meant was that I don't know if they should be diagnosed all the time. Had I or my friend who went on to get some of the highest language results in the country been diagnosed with dyslexia at a young age, my confidence would have been crushed and I would have just resigned myself to saying 'Thats too hard for me' or 'They're all smarter than me'. Her dyslexia wasn't something that was a massive obstacle to her, it was minor enough that she was have been able to overcome it on her own.

maybe i'm misunderstanding here (tbph, i hope i am) but are you actually suggesting that a diagnosis should not be made in case it interferes with someones confidence, and instead they should be left struggling and without access to the resources that such a diagnosis brings??


also, i'd still like to know how you decided that some of the kids at the tanle you mentioned were "just brats", what diagnostic criteria you used and what training and qualifications you have to make that call?

Chuchoter

I am saying that unless the dyslexia is really interfering in a kids work you see how it goes. The diagnoses would not have got her any extra help at primary school.

I know they were brats because they glared at me, pushed and shouted at other kids and refused to do anything that didn't suit exactly what they wanted to do. This was the complete opposite to the other 3 boys, who also had ADD, who were working so hard to stay on topic but just couldn't.

sam34

crayolastereo wrote: »

I am saying that unless the dyslexia is really interfering in a kids work you see how it goes. The diagnoses would not have got her any extra help at primary school.

I know they were brats because they glared at me, pushed and shouted at other kids and refused to do anything that didn't suit exactly what they wanted to do. This was the complete opposite to the other 3 boys, who also had ADD, who were working so hard to stay on topic but just couldn't.

in other words you are advocating avoiding/deferring making a diagnosis.

and you used no diagnostic criteria to make/rule out a diagnosis on those kids, just your own preconceived ideas based on brief interaction.

did it cross your mind for one nano-second that they may have had ADHD as well as more general behavioural problems? the two are not mutually exclusive.

and you are clearly not trained or qualified to diagnose any disorder.

tbh, with that attitude, it's quite frightening to me that you claom to want to be a doctor.

astra2000

crayolastereo wrote: »

I am saying that unless the dyslexia is really interfering in a kids work you see how it goes. The diagnoses would not have got her any extra help at primary school.

I know they were brats because they glared at me, pushed and shouted at other kids and refused to do anything that didn't suit exactly what they wanted to do. This was the complete opposite to the other 3 boys, who also had ADD, who were working so hard to stay on topic but just couldn't.

Below is some of the signs of add/adhd that I have copied from help guide .org. Does this sound like anyone youve met recently .ie those "brats"?

We all know kids who can’t sit still, who never seem to listen, who don’t follow instructions no matter how clearly you present them, or who blurt out inappropriate comments at inappropriate times. Sometimes these children are labeled as troublemakers, or criticized for being lazy and undisciplined. However, they may have ADD/ADHD.

Chuchoter

I just want to point out I never started this thread and tbh I'm kind of pissed off the mods moved my post into its own thread so I could have the whole place descend upon me. My original choice of words was inflammatory, I'm sorry I chose them. No those symptoms don't describe the people in question.

astra2000

crayolastereo wrote: »

I just want to point out I never started this thread and tbh I'm kind of pissed off the mods moved my post into its own thread so I could have the whole place descend upon me. My original choice of words was inflammatory, I'm sorry I chose them. No those symptoms don't describe the people in question.

I can understand that and maybe from here on in, posters can just discuss the title " labelling and children waiting assesments and resources" rather than your opening post. Look dont get pi**ed off, you may actually have inadvertently helped parents who are looking for info regarding this matter, there have been some very informative posts here.
Crayolastereo you are young but I have read other posts by you and in general your opinions are well rounded and you give good advice, so please dont be put off replying. I think you unintentionally hit a raw nerve us parents can be very protective.:p

Lady Chatterton

astra2000 wrote: »

I can understand that and maybe from here on in, posters can just discuss the title " labelling and children waiting assesments and resources" rather than your opening post. Look dont get pi**ed off, you may actually have inadvertently helped parents who are looking for info regarding this matter, there have been some very informative posts here.
Crayolastereo you are young but I have read other posts by you and in general your opinions are well rounded and you give good advice, so please dont be put off replying. I think you unintentionally hit a raw nerve us parents can be very protective.:p

I agree that in a strange way this has probably been one of the most helpful threads that I have read in a while. It has highlighted the plight of parents out there who are doing their best to help their child with developmental delay/special needs.

sam34

crayolastereo wrote: »

I just want to point out I never started this thread and tbh I'm kind of pissed off the mods moved my post into its own thread so I could have the whole place descend upon me. My original choice of words was inflammatory, I'm sorry I chose them. No those symptoms don't describe the people in question.

to be fair, irrespective of who started the thread, when you make the sort of, frankly, ridiculous statements you made, based on nothing more than your own opinion, you should expect (and deserve ) to be called on it.

up for anything

There is a child in my son's class (5th) who has Aspergers. His mother asked for this to be kept from his class mates which has happened successfully. However, the children in his class regard him as bold and not nice and shun him quite nastily. My boy is his only friend in school - he doesn't find him frightening and accepts his over-the-top behaviour as just how he is but then he is a calm, accepting child. I wonder would it have made any difference as to how the child was perceived by his peers if they had known he had a problem from when it became apparent. I only remember when I used to help out in Juniors with listening to their reading that he was the only fluent reader in the class from day one and I know that I used to put his then slightly disruptive behaviour down to pure boredom.

metrovelvet

http://www.amazon.com/Unstoppable-Brilliance-Geniuses-Aspergers-Syndrome/dp/1905483031

Has anyone read this book - Unstoppable Brilliance - Irish Geniuses and Asperger's Syndrome ? Emmet, Pearse, De Valera, Beckett and Joyce and a few others. I find it intriguing that the nation's heroes had Aspergers. Are we an Asperger's nation?

Cat Melodeon

crayolastereo wrote: »

I just want to point out I never started this thread and tbh I'm kind of pissed off the mods moved my post into its own thread so I could have the whole place descend upon me. My original choice of words was inflammatory, I'm sorry I chose them. No those symptoms don't describe the people in question.

I know you didn't start the thread and although I do disagree with your comments and think you need to learn more about the area, as some of the others have said, it has been a very helpful thread. Parents are extremely sensitive about this. Sometimes you just know something is wrong with your child - and in some cases, some parents are told there is something wrong when there isn't. Thanks for raising the issue crayolastereo, even if you didn't really mean to.

Some of the more personal comments are very unfair - the OP's response is typical of people who do not know the clinical or pedagogical rationale behind testing, assessment and diagnoses. OP - if you plan on working in an educational, medical or psychological field, you will learn more about this, but if you take one thing from this thread, please remember that behind every 'brat' stands a family who have struggled and a whole lifetime of pain and worry. When you finally are out in the field, if you can remember that you will make a real difference to peoples' lives.

Nevyn

metrovelvet wrote: »

http://www.amazon.com/Unstoppable-Brilliance-Geniuses-Aspergers-Syndrome/dp/1905483031

Has anyone read this book - Unstoppable Brilliance - Irish Geniuses and Asperger's Syndrome ? Emmet, Pearse, De Valera, Beckett and Joyce and a few others. I find it intriguing that the nation's heroes had Aspergers. Are we an Asperger's nation?

I would be incredibly sceptical of any one who tries to look back and label people as having Asbergers.

Chuchoter

sam34 wrote: »

to be fair, irrespective of who started the thread, when you make the sort of, frankly, ridiculous statements you made, based on nothing more than your own opinion, you should expect (and deserve ) to be called on it.

They are ridiculous if you want to think I said all kids with learning disabilities/behavioural problems are just bold, which I didn't and explained my point of view many, many times.

sam34

crayolastereo wrote: »

They are ridiculous if you want to think I said all kids with learning disabilities/behavioural problems are just bold, which I didn't and explained my point of view many, many times.

What i found ridiculous was a secondary school student labelling some children as "just brats" bases on a brief observation of their behaviour, despite trained professionals having spent considerable periods of time assessing them prior to making a diagnosis.