No gi jiu jitsu tournament???

KDavern

Just wondering does anyone know when and where the next no gi jiujitsu tournament will be on?thanks

dunkamania

Moved from MMA

r_obric

dont mind that NO GI stuff,

http://munsteropenbjj.blogspot.com/

KDavern

Thanks for the link,looks like a brilliant comp,I won't be able to go on the 19th march,have a fight that day,thanks anyway

Barry.Oglesby

March 26th.

Informed Performance Submission Wrestling Tournament 2011-1

Round Robin format, IBJJF NOGI Rules. Yesh indeed.

KDavern

Thanks Barry..looking forward to it

OLDMAN1

Barry.Oglesby wrote: »

March 26th.

Informed Performance Submission Wrestling Tournament 2011-1

Round Robin format, IBJJF NOGI Rules. Yesh indeed.

could you put up a link to the IBJJF NOGI rules, i just cant see them, thanks...

Barry.Oglesby

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nEVVpjC8_xk

Here is a good vid for anyone totally alien to it.

Basically the way I'm doing it this year for anyone entering from other arts is -1yr= white belt/beginner, 1-3yrs = blue belt/intermediate, 3+ years Purple belt/advanced

We had some fierce sandbagging last year which I'm trying to iron out. Some gyms will still do it unfortunately but for the most part I think everyone is pretty good at honest declaration of the divisions.

I'll also be putting more rigid rules in place for spectators and cornering.

Edited to add rules doc:
Sorry forgot to add the link http://www.ibjjf.org/RegrasEnglish2006.pdf

The points system etc. is the same as the gi. The weight categories will be as per ibjjf nogi weights and the divisions for those not involved in BJJ regularly are as above.

OLDMAN1

Barry.Oglesby wrote: »

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nEVVpjC8_xk

Here is a good vid for anyone totally alien to it.

Basically the way I'm doing it this year for anyone entering from other arts is -1yr= white belt/beginner, 1-3yrs = blue belt/intermediate, 3+ years Purple belt/advanced

We had some fierce sandbagging last year which I'm trying to iron out. Some gyms will still do it unfortunately but for the most part I think everyone is pretty good at honest declaration of the divisions.

I'll also be putting more rigid rules in place for spectators and cornering.

Edited to add rules doc:
Sorry forgot to add the link http://www.ibjjf.org/RegrasEnglish2006.pdf

The points system etc. is the same as the gi. The weight categories will be as per ibjjf nogi weights and the divisions for those not involved in BJJ regularly are as above.

Thanks Barry, just 2 things,
(1) whats the deal with the points, is this not a submission wrestling competition?
(2) I cant see anything about a golden score, it would be good if you could clafify it, as i wasn't really happy how it was done the last time, im not bjj, so if thats the way you all do it thats fine, i really dont mind what the rules are, i just like to know what they are before i go some where, thanks...

Barry.Oglesby

(1) yes it's a submission wrestling competition done under IBJJF rules, but it can be entered by anyone from any grappling background
(2) The last tournament was a submission only tournament where we used a first point overtime in the case of any final matches.

I haven't been using the IBJJF rules (though I wanted to) as I felt the level of experience wasn't there yet for refs and competitors. However the points system is a much fairer way of deciding a winner. Otherwise you have guys dominating fights and coming away with the same score as the guy who just kept his chin down and elbows tight. The points system awards the more aggressive fighter.

I should emphasise that I'll still be doing round robin formats. The idea of my competitions is to gain experience and get some competitive mat time. The round robin benefits everyone in this way.

OLDMAN1

Barry.Oglesby wrote: »

(1) yes it's a submission wrestling competition done under IBJJF rules, but it can be entered by anyone from any grappling background
(2) The last tournament was a submission only tournament where we used a first point overtime in the case of any final matches.

I haven't been using the IBJJF rules (though I wanted to) as I felt the level of experience wasn't there yet for refs and competitors. However the points system is a much fairer way of deciding a winner. Otherwise you have guys dominating fights and coming away with the same score as the guy who just kept his chin down and elbows tight. The points system awards the more aggressive fighter.

I should emphasise that I'll still be doing round robin formats. The idea of my competitions is to gain experience and get some competitive mat time. The round robin benefits everyone in this way.

Im sorry to hear that you will nolonger be doing the submission only competitions, i taught that it was the best way to get people involved from different wrestling/grappling backgrounds, by introducing the bjj point systeam it gives the bjj guys to much of a advantage IMO..

Chris89

OLDMAN1 wrote: »

Im sorry to hear that you will nolonger be doing the submission only competitions, i taught that it was the best way to get people involved from different wrestling/grappling backgrounds, by introducing the bjj point systeam it gives the bjj guys to much of a advantage IMO..

This is a bit mad, the techniques that score points (sweeps,passes,takedowns) are a constant in all grappling, i would hope.

SDTimeout

OLDMAN1 wrote: »

Im sorry to hear that you will nolonger be doing the submission only competitions, i taught that it was the best way to get people involved from different wrestling/grappling backgrounds, by introducing the bjj point systeam it gives the bjj guys to much of a advantage IMO..

I will be competing , the way i look at it. It gives a lot of the BJJ guys a chance to get to know the point scoring system for BJJ in a round robin format. As opposed to for example me getting a Gi and entering 3 tournaments but losing each opening round.

Also it means a couple of players can do in and pace it this time. Knowing they can win on points as opposed to being worried of the freight train of power and speed quick to get the W asap.

Should provide for some longer more exciting beginner matches , which is what we all want anyway

NG-DOC

OLDMAN1 wrote: »

Im sorry to hear that you will nolonger be doing the submission only competitions, i taught that it was the best way to get people involved from different wrestling/grappling backgrounds, by introducing the bjj point systeam it gives the bjj guys to much of a advantage IMO..

has anyone, with the exception of judo players ever entered one of barrys (or any irish 'submission wrestling' tournament) who was not from a bjj background?

i wasn't aware there was a big sambo or wrestling community in ireland that were being excluded from competing.

Barry.Oglesby

OLDMAN1 wrote: »

Im sorry to hear that you will nolonger be doing the submission only competitions, i taught that it was the best way to get people involved from different wrestling/grappling backgrounds, by introducing the bjj point systeam it gives the bjj guys to much of a advantage IMO..

I'd be interested to hear in what way a judo/sambo guy would be disadvantaged by the IBJJF rules. And out of interest how many guys from your club will be attending? If there's enough I could organise a walk through of the rules system at your club in advance of the tournie?

Anyway I make no apologies for putting on a tournament under IBJJF rules since I do run a BJJ club, however it is an open tournament with open categories for anyone to enter. That being said, BJJ is by some distance the most popular ground-fighting art in Ireland, so it could be argued that for me to use any other rules format would be unfair.

On the same note, judo guys often complain about the submission-only rule since it takes away much of their competitive advantages. So I guess you can't win.

Marty Mc

NG-DOC wrote: »

has anyone, with the exception of judo players ever entered one of barrys (or any irish 'submission wrestling' tournament) who was not from a bjj background?QUOTE]

Me?

Dont know what i would consider myelf - a grappling 'no-mad'?:D

Barry, will this comp be restricted numbers per division? ie early entry necessaryto guarentee entry.

Liam_B

However the points system is a much fairer way of deciding a winner. Otherwise you have guys dominating fights and coming away with the same score as the guy who just kept his chin down and elbows tight. The points system awards the more aggressive fighter.

A very good point.

Another good point that was already mentioned. The more Tournaments that use IBJJF rules , the quicker all our Irish competitors will familiarize themselves with the rule set, to prepare them for international competitions.

Just my 2 cent..

OLDMAN1

Chris i agree that sweeps,passes,takedowns are a constant in all grappling, scoring is different, but in my opinion the the way you train and the rules that are used can change a fight, i'll give you a example, 2 guys equally as good, both train as hard for the same amount of time and have the same amount of experience, both train in good clubs and are taught by good instructors. the only difference is that one is from a judo club (only) and the other is from a bjj club (ONLY). now in my opinion if these 2 guys fight 10 times in a judo competition, the judo guy will win 9 out of 10 times, now if they fight 10 times in a bjj competition, the bjj guy is going to win 9 out of 10 times, so as you can see rules can change fights, now im not looking to offend anybody, thats just my opinion...

Barry thank you for your kind offer of a walk through of the rules, but i understand the rules, i only run a very small club and the majority have no intrest in wrestling, on 2 guys train wrestling with me so you wont be loosing alot.

I do believe that Judo/sambo guys would be at a disadvantage under IBBJF rules the same way a bjj guy would be at a disadvantage fighting under judo rules, barry i dont know if you have previous judo experience or not, if you dont think you would be at a disadvantage i would suggest that you enter A JUDO competition and give it a go..

Barry im not looking for a apology, why would you apologise? what ever way you want to run your competition is up to you, i only said that I WAS SORRY TO HEAR THAT YOU WERE NOLONGER DOING A SUBMISSION ONLY COMPETITIONS, the best of luck with it...

Clive

Will there be advantages?
Will uniforms have to meet IBJJF requirements?

Doug Cartel

OLDMAN1 wrote: »

Chris i agree that sweeps,passes,takedowns are a constant in all grappling, scoring is different, but in my opinion the the way you train and the rules that are used can change a fight, i'll give you a example, 2 guys equally as good, both train as hard for the same amount of time and have the same amount of experience, both train in good clubs and are taught by good instructors. the only difference is that one is from a judo club (only) and the other is from a bjj club (ONLY). now in my opinion if these 2 guys fight 10 times in a judo competition, the judo guy will win 9 out of 10 times, now if they fight 10 times in a bjj competition, the bjj guy is going to win 9 out of 10 times, so as you can see rules can change fights, now im not looking to offend anybody, thats just my opinion...

Have you ever actually taken part in one of Barry's tournaments?

I'm a (mainly) judo guy and I've been in Berry's subs-only competitions, I've also been to no-gi competitions where they use the BJJ scoring system. I found no practical difference between the two.

Also, I have a sneaking suspicion that what you consider to be a sweep is very different to what a BJJ guy would call a sweep.

Chris89

OLDMAN1 wrote: »

Chris i agree that sweeps,passes,takedowns are a constant in all grappling, scoring is different, but in my opinion the the way you train and the rules that are used can change a fight, i'll give you a example, 2 guys equally as good, both train as hard for the same amount of time and have the same amount of experience, both train in good clubs and are taught by good instructors. the only difference is that one is from a judo club (only) and the other is from a bjj club (ONLY). now in my opinion if these 2 guys fight 10 times in a judo competition, the judo guy will win 9 out of 10 times, now if they fight 10 times in a bjj competition, the bjj guy is going to win 9 out of 10 times, so as you can see rules can change fights, now im not looking to offend anybody, thats just my opinion...

Barry thank you for your kind offer of a walk through of the rules, but i understand the rules, i only run a very small club and the majority have no intrest in wrestling, on 2 guys train wrestling with me so you wont be loosing alot.

I do believe that Judo/sambo guys would be at a disadvantage under IBBJF rules the same way a bjj guy would be at a disadvantage fighting under judo rules, barry i dont know if you have previous judo experience or not, if you dont think you would be at a disadvantage i would suggest that you enter A JUDO competition and give it a go..

Barry im not looking for a apology, why would you apologise? what ever way you want to run your competition is up to you, i only said that I WAS SORRY TO HEAR THAT YOU WERE NOLONGER DOING A SUBMISSION ONLY COMPETITIONS, the best of luck with it...

This is a bit like you posting on the boxing forum and saying you are dissapointed you are only allowed to punch as it tips the advantage towards the boxer.

Sid_Justice

I don't think that's a fair or particularly insightful comment Chris.

I think there is 2 ways of looking at Submission Wrestling.

1. It's a modified rule set to let all grappling disciplines compete against each other as fairly as possible.
2. It's no-gi BJJ

Having said that, I don't think either ibjj points or not overly inhibit the judo player. In fact, surely one would argue a points system favours the judo player who will naturally be less likely to finish by submission but more likely to have postional dominance.

Thanks to barry for hosting this.

Barry.Oglesby

okay whatever. My primary interest is in developing BJJ competitions so semantic arguments about who would win what in what type of competition don't interest me, but as an aside, wrestlers in the US do quite well in IBJJF nogi comps and considering the equipment used doesn't change one iota, I would go so far as to say one points system is as arbitrary as another.

I'm in the process of making some scoreboards... no joke... which will include the advantage and penalty panel. I feel we have enough referees and officials now to manage this successfully.

Chris89

I was of course exaggerating, i suppose the point i am trying to make is that Informed Performance are being kind enough to host the tournament, i dont think their chosen ruleset should come under such scrutiny.

Nobody has to compete, if you dont like the rules, then dont attend!

Anyway, i think the number of people that will benefit from the ibjjf rules being introduced to all such competitions will hugely outweigh the number of people upset that they will not get to turn up to a tournament predominately contested by bjj players and try and show how their grappling art is in someway superior by trying to ankle lock everyone.

Edit: and actually my last experience of barrys sub only tournament was in the advanced division, there were a number of occasions in where one of the two competitors was far more experienced than their opponent, which led to stall fests as im sure andre ramos would testify, he was banging out point scoring moves, but as his opponents knew it was sub only, pretty much all they had to do was protect their neck!

Barry.Oglesby

Marty Mc wrote: »

Me?

Dont know what i would consider myelf - a grappling 'no-mad'?:D

Barry, will this comp be restricted numbers per division? ie early entry necessaryto guarentee entry.

Hey almost missed this!

I want to limit the divisions to 14. That number seems arbitrary but it's not . It allows for 2 groups of 7 and a final match. Now this isn't really the topic for this and I'll outline it further elsewhere but basically the plan is:
1) pre register
2) pre pay with a 48 hour cut off
3) post group/division time 24 hours in advance
4) weigh in directly before your division starts- straight DQ if you miss weight

This will mean that competitors will have to up their game in terms of their own organisation, weight making, pre paying etc.

lukeyjudo

Thanks Barry for putting this on! Always enjoy your tournaments!

Coolmine will be there in force again and I'm delighted with the points system. Some of my guys got takedowns, sweeps etc and walked away with a draw! It was a great experience for the lads but I'm really looking forward to this one as I've emphasised the points for the lads since day one!

Cheers Barry from all at Coolmine!

r_obric

i see more problems with a sub only comp than with the ibjjf rules, but in saying that any type of comp is better than none, if you want to fight NOGI then its most likely either ibjjf or ADCC rules and there are serious problems with the ADCC rules at this level. (personally i have no interest in competing where heel hooks and slams are allowed)

Ive been to comps where for instance there were categories where people didnt loose any of their fights but were behind on the "podium" to people who did loose fights.

anyway the main thing is that any comp is better than no comp and the more competitions the higher the standard of the fighters becomes and the higher the standard of the competitions gets.

fair dues to barry for putting it on last year, this year etc etc, and for taking on board comments and making improvements to them each time.

lukeyjudo

OLDMAN1 wrote: »

Chris i agree that sweeps,passes,takedowns are a constant in all grappling, scoring is different, but in my opinion the the way you train and the rules that are used can change a fight, i'll give you a example, 2 guys equally as good, both train as hard for the same amount of time and have the same amount of experience, both train in good clubs and are taught by good instructors. the only difference is that one is from a judo club (only) and the other is from a bjj club (ONLY). now in my opinion if these 2 guys fight 10 times in a judo competition, the judo guy will win 9 out of 10 times, now if they fight 10 times in a bjj competition, the bjj guy is going to win 9 out of 10 times, so as you can see rules can change fights, now im not looking to offend anybody, thats just my opinion...

I do believe that Judo/sambo guys would be at a disadvantage under IBBJF rules the same way a bjj guy would be at a disadvantage fighting under judo rules, barry i dont know if you have previous judo experience or not, if you dont think you would be at a disadvantage i would suggest that you enter A JUDO competition and give it a go..

I could not disagree with you more. A personal philosophy of mine is a good grappler should be able to do well in any comp regardless if its Judo, BJJ, Sambo, Submission Wrestling etc.

As for the ruleset, I had a guy from Coolmine BJJ who trained with me maybe only 5 classes but did only a few months of judo (Less than 6 months ain’t no sandbaggers in coolmine!!). He wanted to enter the last IP tournament, he asked me what to do about the points etc. I said forget about the points throw him on his back and get a submission. He did very well for his first no gi comp and in fact if there was points scoring at that event he would have racked them up in pursuit of the submission. If he’s fighting this points tournament my advice will still be the same.

Another point, if you plan on entering a tournament the only person who will be at a disadvantage will be the person who doesn't prepare for the ruleset in the comp he's fighting in. It's the second of February, the comp is on at the end of March, that's nearly 8 weeks to prepare... You could well familiarise yourself with the rules within that time and adapt your game. That's the way I look at it. If you still think you would be at a disadvantage thats up to you.

Liam_B

Barry ,....good job on hosting this comp, boy!

I think its a great idea to introduce IBJJF rules to this competition. The more you standardize the rules , the more Irish competitors will be able to familiarize themselves ,for future National and International Events.

Plus the Scoreboard is a must...nice touch.

There's over 30 IBJJF referee's in the country might as well put em to use:D

OLDMAN1

I would just like to say that all i said was that i was sorry that barry was nolonger doing a submission only competition, whats wrong with that,it's my opinion and i have a right to my opinion.I believe fair dues to barry
for putting on any competitions as i know the work that goes into arranging them.Im not upset about it, i just think it's sad that it's not going to be done anymore...

Luke: I agree with your personel philosophy but as you already said you have emphasised points from the very start with your lads, i havn't, my fault. But your right, 8 weeks is enough time...

Chris89 wrote: »

Anyway, i think the number of people that will benefit from the ibjjf rules being introduced to all such competitions will hugely outweigh the number of people upset that they will not get to turn up to a tournament predominately contested by bjj players and try and show how their grappling art is in someway superior by trying to ankle lock everyone.

I take offence from this. The person your talking about is one of my lads and his name is robert, I want to say that i have never said that my grappling art is in some way superior to anyone elses in public,private or in any post,thats in chris's sad little mind, there are 3 reasons that i wouldn't say that.
(1) i dont believe that anyone style is better than another.
(2) its not my style to say things like that,im a live and let live type of person.
(3) saying things like that tends to come back and bite you in the ass.

Now Robert entered that competition and in my opinion behaved like a sportsman, he shook everybodys hands with a smile , didn't break any rules or hold any submision anylonger than he had to and i can tell you that on the drive home and in training the next day he did not say one negative thing about anybody that was in his section weather he fought them or not, he was nothing but complimentary,the one particular person that caught both our eye was michael delvin and then i come on this board and see comments written about him like that by some stupid , ignorant little asshole, Now im not speaking for Robert here but my opinion of one of the competiors that day has just gone right down, asshole is to good a word for him...

Chris89

OLDMAN1 wrote: »

I would just like to say that all i said was that i was sorry that barry was nolonger doing a submission only competition, whats wrong with that,it's my opinion and i have a right to my opinion.I believe fair dues to barry
for putting on any competitions as i know the work that goes into arranging them.Im not upset about it, i just think it's sad that it's not going to be done anymore...

Luke: I agree with your personel philosophy but as you already said you have emphasised points from the very start with your lads, i havn't, my fault. But your right, 8 weeks is enough time...




I take offence from this. The person your talking about is one of my lads and his name is robert, I want to say that i have never said that my grappling art is in some way superior to anyone elses in public,private or in any post,thats in chris's sad little mind, there are 3 reasons that i wouldn't say that.
(1) i dont believe that anyone style is better than another.
(2) its not my style to say things like that,im a live and let live type of person.
(3) saying things like that tends to come back and bite you in the ass.

Now Robert entered that competition and in my opinion behaved like a sportsman, he shook everybodys hands with a smile , didn't break any rules or hold any submision anylonger than he had to and i can tell you that on the drive home and in training the next day he did not say one negative thing about anybody that was in his section weather he fought them or not, he was nothing but complimentary,the one particular person that caught both our eye was michael delvin and then i come on this board and see comments written about him like that by some stupid , ignorant little asshole, Now im not speaking for Robert here but my opinion of one of the competiors that day has just gone right down, asshole is to good a word for him...

Whoah there, im not really sure who you think i was talking about, i was just making a blanket statement about any individual practicing some other martial art not liking the bjj points because that means they wont be able to win bjj matches against bjj players. Wasnt aimed at you.

Fair play to this robert lad though.

Edit: was robert the guy in the red t-shirt in the division? i definitely wasnt talking about him thats just an upsetting coincidence.

i am a bit of an asshole though. and check your pms

ScareGilly

Never been involved in a tournament before, just trained. But under those rules is stalling not encouraged? Just get a takedown - 2 points, and stay in their guard for the whole thing?

I don't think there's a set of rules that doesn't encourage it. I still don't see why people would like to win on points. Everyone should at least try to win by submission. After all, it's just a bit of fun, it's not like your life depends on it.

Though, in fairness, I've only been involved for 5-6 months and don't know much :P

Liam_B

But under those rules is stalling not encouraged?

Absolutely Not. Check out the rules on http://www.ibjjf.org/rules.htm

E-) When the athlete stalls the fight, holding his adversary and, not seeking to engage or gain submissions when in the guard, on top, or on the bottom.


PENALTIES:

- On the first offence the offender will be given a verbal warning.

- On the second offence the offender’s opponent will be given an advantage.

- On the third offence the offender’s opponent will be given two points.

- After the third offence the referee may disqualify the athlete for any further fouls.

Barry.Oglesby

Well this has turned into something ridiculous, but then I shouldn't be surprised as it is boards...

Look, IBJJF rules, FILA rules, ADCC rules, Urban Gorillaz rules, submission only, they all, in theory "favour" somebody. But the best grapplers still win regardless. I could care less for rules formats I just try to make my guys the best grapplers they can be. The reason I'm using IBJJF is because they're the rules and 99% of guys who enter this tournament will be BJJ players. If people don't like these rules, then they need to find a new sport, because these are the rules of the sport. If I don't like the handball rule in soccer, I'll go play Gaelic.

As for you being "entitled to their opinion" Anthony, well, I would agree if you had either competed or had your students compete under IBJJF rules in the past. As it stands, you've read the rules in the last 2 days and that's the limit of your experience with them by your own admission. I've offered to come and walk your guys through the rules so you wouldn't be at a disadvantage. I'm afraid I can't see your side. I wouldn't come on here whining about San Shou rules because I know as much about San Shou as you do about BJJ.

In IBJJF rules there are points for takedowns, superior positioning, passing guard, sweeping, and advantages for attempted submissions and positions. What grappling style doesn't have some element of those? What BJJ technique gives a BJJ player an advantage? In fact, the lack of a Gi in NoGi probably negates a lot of the power of the BJJ player's most potent weapon- the guard. In fact, I would put good money on Marty Mc doing very well in this tournament as he did in the last one he attended.

I'll always answer criticisms and I've put in place policies based on lessons learned and mistakes made in previous tournaments. But I'm not going to listen to baseless criticisms, played out in public.

David Jones

So can you wear a gi Barry??

Barry.Oglesby

A few guys will be at a tournament in the UK in March so I'm considering moving this to early April. Standby for more updates.


Also had a few people say, and I'm quoting here, "it's only a week after Paddy's day" which is something I just can't understand. But there you go.

NG-DOC

Barry.Oglesby wrote: »

A few guys will be at a tournament in the UK in March so I'm considering moving this to early April. Standby for more updates.


Also had a few people say, and I'm quoting here, "it's only a week after Paddy's day" which is something I just can't understand. But there you go.

if you mean the ADCC trials, i can't imagine there will be enough going to detract from the tournament. i have a lot of guys interested in your tournament, even though i myself can't make it.

early april there is the british open as well as the french open. with the amount of tournaments abroad nowadays, it's pretty much impossible to not clash with something.