Rest before a FTP test ?

levitronix

Just wondering what kinda rest most people would take before the test, tomorow i plan on doing my 2nd test because i feel i ve progressed enough to change my training zones

So question is you think 1 days rest enough for a good test, done a 4hour club spin on sunday fairly tough spin for such a big group 202 watt avg , then monday 2 x 25 min tempos at 229 watt finishing with sprints over 1100 watts
One days rest enough ?

Will post the CP curve tomorrow because i ve questions about the gaps between what i done and what the CP curve is at

michael196

I am no expert but I too am facing a second test next monday, and coach is scheduling this FTP test after a week off the bike, save 2 short spins planned for, one for next friday and one for saturday , sunday off ( but working ) Monday off then test monday night.


coach anxious to find top power level in effort to determine the next 6-8 weeks training.

wants me well rested

cantalach

CP = ???

morana

CP=Crtical Power.

I would usually schedule test for a rest week so you are well rested before the test usually thursday. Do you do rest weeks? Personally I find if you did a heavy spin on Sunday I wouldnt be right until wednesday for a hard session so a medium session on Tuesday would ease me back in.

BTw Rest weeks are not weeks down the snooker hall or playing darts in the boozer..

michael196

cantalach wrote: »

CP = ???

morana wrote: »

CP=Crtical Power.

I would usually schedule test for a rest week so you are well rested before the test usually thursday. Do you do rest weeks? Personally I find if you did a heavy spin on Sunday I wouldnt be right until wednesday for a hard session so a medium session on Tuesday would ease me back in.

BTw Rest weeks are not weeks down the snooker hall or playing darts in the boozer..

just to claify the above :


for a test on a thursday: heavy spin sunday, medium session tuesday, then test on the thursday ? correct ?

michael196

do you have any of the energy drinks before hand ?

karlmyson

Critical Power. A point on a CP curve is average power sustained over a particular time interval; the CP value for 60 mins is often taken as your FTP. More here:

http://www.bikeforums.net/archive/index.php/t-694663.html

chakattack

Levi,

Did I see that you messed your foot up yet you're back at it already? Hardcore! You related to Joe barr?

I'd say rest a bit more....Friel prescribes testing on rest weeks

Lumen

I have found I get the biggest numbers after a generally restful week with a short TT-like effort (20-30 minutes) two or three days beforehand.

morana

michael196 wrote: »

just to claify the above :


for a test on a thursday: heavy spin sunday, medium session tuesday, then test on the thursday ? correct ?

No! on the thursday in an easy week.

In general a hevy spin on sunday leaves me unable to do a hard(test) effort on wednesday of a normal week.

levitronix

Any way was too tired to try the test today think i do need a full rest week , as for the foot its better just still bruised i looked after it well with hot cold theraphy and trips to the physio

what i dont get is the gaps on the CP curve why it changes my critcal power sometimes it goes up and then it goes down, should i try nail some efforts out to fill the gaps, right now im kinda sticking to a plan of threshold spins tempo and sprint work outs and long stuff with the club

Lumen

levitronix wrote: »

what i dont get is the gaps on the CP curve why it changes my critcal power sometimes it goes up and then it goes down

The more AWC you have, the lower your CP will appear. This is because CP is extrapolated from shorter efforts which are assumed to be maximal, i.e. include using all of your anaerobic capacity.

Model != reality. Don't stress it. If you need some motivation to do shorter intervals, try and get your CP curve up to the dotted line.

levitronix

It annoys me when it goes up a few watts then goes down a few watts like it did today, last week i thought i made progress when it went up 5 watts and this week it went down 9

Lumen

levitronix wrote: »

It annoys me when it goes up a few watts then goes down a few watts like it did today, last week i thought i made progress when it went up 5 watts and this week it went down 9

I think maybe you need to step away from the computers for a while. :pac:

billy.fish

you do realise a CP curve needs more data than just a 20mins TT for it to be of any worth?

Critical power and functional threshold power are not the same thing.

One is based on years of research one is a very very good idea based on coaching experience.

Ironically there is no point just talking about power without any physiological variables to scale the data to.

Looking at the curve you've displayed i'd worry more about doing some shorter harder efforts to change whats happening at hte bound between Z7 and Z6....but thats just me.

morana

billy.fish wrote: »

you do realise a CP curve needs more data than just a 20mins TT for it to be of any worth?

Critical power and functional threshold power are not the same thing.

One is based on years of research one is a very very good idea based on coaching experience.

Ironically there is no point just talking about power without any physiological variables to scale the data to.

Looking at the curve you've displayed i'd worry more about doing some shorter harder efforts to change whats happening at hte bound between Z7 and Z6....but thats just me.

I thought FTP was based on CP as well?

Anyway I wouldnt necessarily do Z6-7 yet plenty of time of that. Get your z4 as good as it can be and then work on the high end stuff later. I have seen guys have really successful years just doing miles and z4 stuff with a little bit if VO2 efforts thrown in. but thats just my opinion...

billy.fish

FTP is based on an idea that is a nice metric thats easy to calculate. Its not grounded in any scientific basis, but some of the best ideas aren't, then they get proven in a lab to be valid. So not an issue.

CP is based on a mathematical assessment of ability to produce maximal power at several durations and the resulting fit to that curve. Kinda like a lactate profile but a different regression.

Long time since i've read work in the area TBH.

levitronix

Theres only 6 weeks data so far, will wait he club TT to try nail an hour effort or a good race cant se myself doing that han-solo, I just thought that maybe i had improved a bit to change my zones but that will have to wait till i try get a good rest period in and try nail a test

billy.fish

go do some 1mins, 5mins, 30sec, 5 sec and 10mins efforts too.

Maybe not all inthe same session mind...

leftism

billy.fish wrote: »

CP is based on a mathematical assessment of ability to produce maximal power at several durations and the resulting fit to that curve. Kinda like a lactate profile but a different regression.

We did a lot of CP curves for the paralympic cycling team before Beijing. Useful information but very time consuming. Our protocol involved doing a full Pmax test, then doing various time to failure tests at percentages both below and above Pmax. Graphing time to failures (s) against power (W) gives us a curve which can be extrapolated to identify your critical power. The problem is that the athlete needs sufficient recovery time between efforts to get a true maximum on each effort. As such you're looking at a full day of lab testing which is not often very practical.

I don't know if the amount of time taken to accurately assess CP is justified by the resultant data attained for training/performance...

billy.fish

leftism wrote: »

I don't know if the amount of time taken to accurately assess CP is justified by the resultant data attained for training/performance...

Its not. Hence why CP is not the used that much anymore. Kinda a piece of 'great in theory but not bothered'

Takes way way to long to do the testing, and if you want to repeat test an athlete with it...there goes a week in every 6 on a test period.

Nice tool for one off analysis though.

Good paper out a while back validating a 3 minute all out cycle test as a measure of critical power in cycling. Can't for the life of me remember who wrote it, its on my desk.

leftism

billy.fish wrote: »

Good paper out a while back validating a 3 minute all out cycle test as a measure of critical power in cycling. Can't for the life of me remember who wrote it, its on my desk.

Would be interested in reading that! If you could get a more time efficient way of estimating CP i think it would be far more widely used in labs....

Absolute pain in the arse for both athlete and tester doing a full day of testing just to estimate CP based on curve fitting and extrapolation!

Lumen

GC only uses 2 data points to calculate your CP. The two points it picks are the "best" points within two ranges, 1 to 6 minutes and 10 to 60 minutes. These "best" points are those that touch the dotted red line.

The CP can only be accurately estimated if these two points truly represent up-to-date maximal efforts.

For instance, if you have an old data point for CP20, but manage to nail new PB for a 5 minute interval, this will push your estimated AWC up and your estimated CP down. Your aerobic capacity may have improved, but because the old CP20 data point is lower than your new improved capability, it in effect pushes the tail of the curve down which lowers the CP estimate.

Alternatively, if your 1-6 minute data was sub-maximal, that would have caused an under-estimate of your AWC and an over-estimate of your CP. Imagine that you did all your intervals at CP20 (~270W), even the very short ones. Your CP curve would be flat, and GC would estimate your CP to be 270W which would be incorrect.

The Coggan/Allen FTP test involves an 5 min max power "leg emptier" before the 20min test. This means you'll get both points in the same test and your CP and AWC estimates should be more accurate.

edit: arguably, following that Coggan/Allen test protocol means that your 20 minute effort will be sub-maximal, because you've used up some freshness. So if you want to use GC to estimate your FTP, separate those two intervals to different days.

levitronix

Ahhh ......

That makes sense now thanks lumen, because thats what did happen i did set a new 5 min pb wattage .. i see the light now

It was alomst as the bad as the Wii telling me im fat, goldencheetat telling me my CP was down

billy.fish

levitronix wrote: »

Ahhh ......

That makes sense now thanks lumen, because thats what did happen i did set a new 5 min pb wattage .. i see the light now

It was alomst as the bad as the Wii telling me im fat, goldencheetat telling me my CP was down

Once again...why are you worrying about CP?

Especially now that you know the system is flawed?

Just track metrics at given times...or just ride your bike more

morana

I use FTP method to set the zones but then comapare it to data from a race and you can broadly see if you are in the ball park.

personally I wouldnt waste a day of 2 just for testing all the differnet systems but just focus on the ones that matter to my discipline.