Doberman ear cropping

Discodog

Gerry Asstrix wrote: »

I just like the challenge of caring for a dog that looks like it means business Lol and has a reputation

he can moonlight as the house bouncer and keep watch for any bad guys

I would really hope that you would do all you can to dispel such rumours. It is bad enough to have Dobies as a restricted breed without giving fuel to those who would like to see a total ban.

Training or encouraging any dog to "watch out for any bad guys" is asking for trouble especially with children in the house. Remember that if your dog bites an intruder the dog may end up being put down. Under Irish Law any dog that bites, even in your own property, can be designated as dangerous & an order can be made for it's destruction.

Just to clarify that both ear cropping & tail docking are not illegal. However they are both classified as mutilation by the Veterinary Council. Any Vet who performed such practices is liable for disciplinary action. It is also a criminal offence for an operation to be carried out without anaesthetic

“If any operation to which this section applies is performed on any animal without the use of any anaesthetic so administered as to prevent any pain during the operation, that operation shall be deemed for the purposes of the Principal Act to be an operation which is performed without due care and humanity. “

This would be a restriction on any "lay" person cropping ears. However anyone can legally dock a tail provided it is under one month old.

daenerysstormborn3

A reputation? What reputation would that be? Your pup is 12 weeks old you say? How does it already have a reputation? Or are you trying to apply the generalisation that some breeds (most of whom are on a "list") fall victim to by no fault of their own?

Cherry Blossom

pixiebean22 wrote: »

What reputation would that be?

The ultimately knee-breaker obviously , given that they are people-orientated over sized lapdogs.

cjf

Zapperzy wrote: »

Not sure on cropped ears but the Irish kennel club will still accept docked dogs in shows. It's probably the English kennel club your thinking of, over there your not allowed to show a dog with a tail docked after a certain date at a show where the visitors pay an entrance fee.

Apologies must be only Uk but sooner it comes in here the better!! Love seeing a dobie wit a tail my chaps was gone when he came to me but seen a good few about wit full tails and they look fab!! Wonder if my guy had full tail would he still wag his whole backside when he's excited!! Can't understand the docking and cropping at all they are such a stunning breed as they are ... Although I may be a bit dobie biased!!!

primavera85

i know a few of you are anti docking, my terriers are docked, my pups will also be docked. my dogs are not show dogs or pets, they are working dogs (even if they do sleep by the fire) my pups will not be going to pet homes either as they are not really suitable. they are docked halfway down their tail roughly 4ins from the body to leave enough tail on the terrier for a man to grab if they should get stuck in a earth. it is not for cosmetic reasons that this is done and it may surprise you that i am particularly squeamish when it comes to having my pups docked by my vet.

personally i dont see the point in docking pet dogs/show dogs.

TooManyDogs

But there's no proven purpose for working dogs to have tails docked either, what reasons do you do it for?

markc1184

Rather than docking ears, is there not some sort of massaging technique that can be used? Similar to what some owners do with Alasation/ German Shepards to have the ears standing straight. I'm not sure how effective it is but have heard of it being done before.

primavera85

very simple, ive seen 1st hand a working terrier with the nerves in its tail severed during a hunt, he wasnt docked, had to have his tail amputated. the only time i heard a dog scream like that was when i witnesses a jrt belonging to a local equestrian centre being trampled by their prize stallion, that dog died moments later.

stick shooter

TooManyDogs wrote: »

But there's no proven purpose for working dogs to have tails docked either, what reasons do you do it for?[

when they go true rough ground there tails can get tangled and quite badly ripped on bushes.

daenerysstormborn3

Pretty sure that massage technique is only relevant after a dogs ears have been cropped through surgery. Think it's to help circulate blood and also work off any scabs and keep the ears clean.

Just googled and that massage technique seem to be used in breeds where the ears are short and sometimes not wrapped. It's to encourage the ears direction of growth, don't know how successful that would be but it is only useful after surgery.

TooManyDogs

stick shooter wrote: »

when they go true rough ground there tails can get tangled and quite badly ripped on bushes.

I've heard this reason before but it's never been proven that hunting dogs have more tail accidents than other dogs. Plenty of spaniels aren't docked but have no more tail injuries than docked spaniels, in fact vets say that they see more ear injuries in spaniels from going into bushes when hunting than anything else yet no one is suggesting ear cropping to prevent these injuries.

joyce2009

I worked in a vets in the states years ago and only once in the three years did he crop the ears of a dobbie ( or any other dog) because he as a vet didnt like it and it is also very specalised,, as he said himself its very easy for it to go wrong and you end up with a lopsided looking dog.. Personally as a former dobbie owner i would never put a dog through a procedure that is totally unnessary and very painfull..I doubt it increases hearing as the OP said..My two cents for what its worth..:)

Discodog

primavera85 wrote: »

it may surprise you that i am particularly squeamish when it comes to having my pups docked by my vet.

personally i dont see the point in docking pet dogs/show dogs.

Not half as squeamish as your Vet is at the thought of being reported.

The reducing injury argument is utter hogwash. Vets, who after all are the ones who treat injuries, say categorically that there is no higher incidence of tail injuries in dogs that hunt versus dogs that don't.

If "Terrier men" are going to pull a dog out of a burrow by it's tail they can cause huge damage.

In 30-40 years time, when we catch up with the rest of Europe, docking will become illegal. Until then it will be just another example to the World of our lack of commitment to welfare along with the Greyhounds, Horses, & stray Cats/Dogs. In the meantime docked dogs will become a much rarer sight & will stand out. People will start to see docking as socially unacceptable.

Like any practice there will be a few dinosaurs who believe that it is their right to do to a dog as they see fit but the market for docked dogs will decrease.

primavera85

reported for what exactly??? legally docking a working dog.... pish

you should really get out more, there are more backyard breeders in this country chopping tails off Shi.tty little mini jack russels themselves than anything else
run along and annoy them, if you feel so pro-active go and knock on the puppy farmers doors with the ispca + police in tow, or maybe throw all that energy of yours into knocking on the doors of slaughterhouses and ask them to stop halal slaughter, or better yet petition the goverment to stop the battery farming of hens.

another keyboard know it all, part of the reason why this country is going down the drain. even the uk permits working dogs to be legally docked providing you can provide proof to your vet that the dogs are workers or of working type.
do your research.

Cherry Blossom

primavera85 wrote: »

very simple, ive seen 1st hand a working terrier with the nerves in its tail severed during a hunt, he wasnt docked, had to have his tail amputated. the only time i heard a dog scream like that was when i witnesses a jrt belonging to a local equestrian centre being trampled by their prize stallion, that dog died moments later.

Plenty of pet labs have cleared tables and broke things damaging their tails but you don't see any docked labs, how did this terrier's tail become damaged if you don't mind me asking? Why is it that working hounds aren't docked and working terriers are? With hounds, the white tip of the tail was breed in to make the dog easily visable in undergrowth, if ever there was an arguement for either docking or cropping being beneficial to working dogs following this logic hounds would be a prime example of why it should be done yet they are neither cropped or docked, they would probably look pretty stupid if they were and I've never heard of one suffer an injury to either it's ears or tail. All of this brings me back to the point that it seems to be done purely for asthetic reasons and customer demand whatever excuses are used by the people who try to justify doing it.

primavera85

adrenalinjunkie wrote: »

Plenty of pet labs have cleared tables and broke things damaging their tails but you don't see any docked labs, how did this terrier's tail become damaged if you don't mind me asking? Why is it that working hounds aren't docked and working terriers are? With hounds, the white tip of the tail was breed in to make the dog easily visable in undergrowth, if ever there was an arguement for either docking or cropping being beneficial to working dogs following this logic hounds would be a prime example of why it should be done yet they are neither cropped or docked, they would probably look pretty stupid if they were and I've never heard of one suffer an injury to either it's ears or tail. All of this brings me back to the point that it seems to be done purely for asthetic reasons and customer demand whatever excuses are used by the people who try to justify doing it.

a hunt terrier isnt a bloody labrador or a hound it goes head to head with the fox underground, its job is to bolt the fox to the gun. the terrier in the aforementioned incident was a young inexperienced dog that turned in the earth, got its tail bitten severely by the fox and if it had been docked this injury wouldnt have happened. before you go off on some anti hunting yarn remember that most of the breeds you have turned into useless oversized lapdogs were all bred and developed for hunting or guarding or farming or weight-pulling or even as a source of food themselves.

Cherry Blossom

primavera85 wrote: »

a hunt terrier isnt a bloody labrador or a hound it goes head to head with the fox underground, its job is to bolt the fox to the gun. the terrier in the aforementioned incident was a young inexperienced dog that turned in the earth, got its tail bitten severely by the fox and if it had been docked this injury wouldnt have happened. before you go off on some anti hunting yarn remember that most of the breeds you have turned into useless oversized lapdogs were all bred and developed for hunting or guarding or farming or weight-pulling or even as a source of food themselves.

I'm not likely to go off on some anti-hunting yarn when I hunt myself (with un-docked, un-cropped hounds). No they don't go underground but they do go tearing through undergrowth, briars and barbed wire fences and funnily enough seem to avoid tearing their ears off. I can assure you I don't own any over-sized lapdogs, I do own a pet dog, an un-docked terrier from working stock funnily enough. The terrier would still have had a tail albeit a shorter one so you cannot guarantee that it wouldn't still have sustained an injury had it not been docked, it might have bought the dog a few extra seconds but thats all. With labs I was mearly pointing out the fact that they are also somewhat prone to damaging their tail and just from normal day to day life but lab breeders don't appear to find this reason enough to dock them all as pups.

Discodog

primavera85 wrote: »

reported for what exactly??? legally docking a working dog.... pish

you should really get out more, there are more backyard breeders in this country chopping tails off Shi.tty little mini jack russels themselves than anything else
run along and annoy them, if you feel so pro-active go and knock on the puppy farmers doors with the ispca + police in tow, or maybe throw all that energy of yours into knocking on the doors of slaughterhouses and ask them to stop halal slaughter, or better yet petition the goverment to stop the battery farming of hens.

another keyboard know it all, part of the reason why this country is going down the drain. even the uk permits working dogs to be legally docked providing you can provide proof to your vet that the dogs are workers or of working type.
do your research.

If you have done your research you will know that, whilst very specific docking is allowed in the UK, there are a lot of conditions that have to be met. The list is here:

http://www.cdb.org/awa/

No UK or Irish government will ban docking completely whilst many MP's/TD's are shooters or landowners. The law & the attitude of Vets make it perfectly clear that docking is not welcome.

The following guidelines are from the RCVS:

"Docking a dog's tail for reasons which are other than truly therapeutic or prophylactic is capable of amounting to conduct disgraceful in a professional respect. In the event of disciplinary proceedings being brought in respect of tail docking, it shall be open to the RCVS by evidence to prove, and to the Disciplinary Committee on such evidence to find, that any therapeutic or prophylactic justification advanced for the docking in question is without substance. If such a finding is made, the Disciplinary Committee may proceed to consider and to decide whether in the circumstances the veterinary surgeon who undertook that docking knew, or ought to have known, that such purported justification is without substance.

For the avoidance of any doubt, any instance of tail docking which is found to have been undertaken for reasons which were not truly therapeutic or prophylactic will necessarily constitute an unacceptable mutilation of the dog, which, if carried out by a veterinary surgeon who knew or ought to have known of the lack of true justification, would almost certainly be considered to be conduct disgraceful in a professional respect."


Animal welfare will always be a case of deciding that something causes pain & distress, banning it for the majority & then having to make exclusions for influential groups. We have just seen this with the DBEB where Greyhound breeders have been excluded.

It's as if we decide that certain breeds should be spared suffering but that others can. It like a dog apartheid. Yet, in reality, the ability to feel pain doesn't vary with breed.

In any event the eloquence of your post shows the merit of your case.

amber2

Have two dobies both with relaxed ears, tails were docked when we bought them as pups so didnt have a choice in that. Would not want them to have the intimidating look as sometimes the bread gets enough stick as it is, alot of which is totally unfounded. They both hear just fine and can hear a sweet paper russel at a thousand paces and also they have never had any accidents involving their ears although they do flop around a bit on a windy day such as today.

Discodog

I should of added that any UK Vet has to, by law, microchip the docked puppy. Therefore any owner found in possession of a docked dog, without a chip, could have some explaining to do as to who did the docking.

I also understand that it may be difficult to get a Vet to dock, in the UK, even if you do comply with all the regulations as the Vet has a right to refuse your business.

cjf

amber2 wrote: »

Have two dobies both with relaxed ears, tails were docked when we bought them as pups so didnt have a choice in that. Would not want them to have the intimidating look as sometimes the bread gets enough stick as it is, alot of which is totally unfounded. They both hear just fine and can hear a sweet paper russel at a thousand paces and also they have never had any accidents involving their ears although they do flop around a bit on a windy day such as today.

Yes no hearing problems with mine either when it involves the opening of any type of food although if busy doing his rounds in the garden or sniffing something interesting his ears must sometimes block out the sound of my voice calling him. . .they are funny like that!!

Some people have asked me if he is a hound because they expect dobie ears to be all pointy and mean and dont even realise that they are actually born with floppy velvet ears!!

amber2

cjf wrote: »

Yes no hearing problems with mine either when it involves the opening of any type of food although if busy doing his rounds in the garden or sniffing something interesting his ears must sometimes block out the sound of my voice calling him. . .they are funny like that!!

Lol, funny mine have that too, selective deafness and headless when it suits, although they are more obedient than the kids.

carwash_2006

Discodog wrote: »

I should of added that any UK Vet has to, by law, microchip the docked puppy. Therefore any owner found in possession of a docked dog, without a chip, could have some explaining to do as to who did the docking.

I also understand that it may be difficult to get a Vet to dock, in the UK, even if you do comply with all the regulations as the Vet has a right to refuse your business.

Totally off topic and I apologise. But this raised a question in my head. Chips seem to disappear or wander in some dogs, does this mean that someone who had a dog that was genuinely docked by a vet for a legitimate reason and the chip vanished they could be in trouble. One would hope that the vet would have records, but it's something to think about. Could be a nasty shock for an owner that wasn't aware that chips can vanish.

Obviously I'm not a fan of docking, but just thought that was an interesting point.

Discodog

The British Small Veterinary Association did a long term study into microchip reliability. The data suggest that even allowing for migration etc the total failure rate is less than 0.01% or 1 in 10,000

Yes the Vet would have a record & so would the owner, in the form of a registration certificate with the chip number.

Meteoric

I do not own a docked breed but as of about 8 or so years ago you cannot show a docked dog so anyone who is selling you a docked dog from a potential show litter is lying. There is not a docked dog from a show potential litter in the country that is not an old dog now.
The ban on docking by the IKC was before the microchipping so any microchipped dog should not be docked as far as I remember.
I have to say at shows it was lovely seeing the previously docked breeds with tails They looked so much better.

ISDW

Meteoric wrote: »

I do not own a docked breed but as of about 8 or so years ago you cannot show a docked dog so anyone who is selling you a docked dog from a potential show litter is lying. There is not a docked dog from a show potential litter in the country that is not an old dog now.
The ban on docking by the IKC was before the microchipping so any microchipped dog should not be docked as far as I remember.
I have to say at shows it was lovely seeing the previously docked breeds with tails They looked so much better.

Sorry, as has already been said, there is no ban on docking in Ireland, so you can show a docked dog. You can actually still show a docked dog in the UK, just not a show that the public has to pay money to enter. I don't show, so I don't know if you can still show dogs that were docked before the ban came in over there.

Andreac on here shows her male rottweiler, he's docked and he's certainly not an old dog, I don't know how old he is, but no more than 5 I'd say. And he's been made up to champion, so these are proper IKC shows he's going into. I believe, if I remember rightly, that he's also been to Crufts.

Discodog

Any law or regulation will not be retrospective. So any dog docked before law is introduced is not affected. The legislators know that they cannot instantly ban docking. But gradually it will totally disappear.

Ear cropping is totally different & none of the comments regarding tail docking apply to ear cropping.

andreac

Meteoric wrote: »

I do not own a docked breed but as of about 8 or so years ago you cannot show a docked dog so anyone who is selling you a docked dog from a potential show litter is lying. There is not a docked dog from a show potential litter in the country that is not an old dog now.
The ban on docking by the IKC was before the microchipping so any microchipped dog should not be docked as far as I remember.
I have to say at shows it was lovely seeing the previously docked breeds with tails They looked so much better.

Sorry, but you are wrong, you are the one who is lying im afraid. I really would love to know where people get this information from??

I own and show rottweilers and there is no ban on showing any docked dog in ireland at all.
In the UK they have banned it from April 1st 2007 and any dog legally docked after that date cannot be shown at certain shows in the UK, Crufts being one of them.

My male is only 4 and he is docked and i show him week in week out all over Ireland and the UK so please, be careful what you post if you dont know the facts as everything you have posted is wrong.

You keep saying as far as you remember, but what you have been told is wrong.

ADAlliance

es2003 wrote: »

I'm almost 100% sure cropping ears here IS illegal? I have a dane and at dog shows NONE of the usually cropped breeds are cropped, dobermans, boxers or danes. None. I can't remember where I read it but i'm fairly sure it is, that is too much of a coincidence! Docking is legal I think, it may have a limit on the age. I think over 4 days is generally frowned apon??
As far as my oppinion on cropping, I used to loathe it, and loathe the people that did it too. While I am still not a fan, the people who do it aren't always evil (in places where its legal), they are taking a small risk with the surgery and it is purely cosmetic but if it is legal then it is their choice. The dog will forget about it, it won't be emotionally scarred for life or anything. A lot of the people who show and crop their dogs ears take better care of their dogs then the average person here, where a lot of people treat their dogs as lawn ornaments and don't actually do anything with them. The dogs aren't starved, and in the case of great danes it takes a LOT of dedication to get those ears to stand, it can take up to a year! That shows dedication to your dog, even if it is for what you may think is the wrong reason.
I wouldn't do it, but where people have the choice (in america etc) and are responsible about aftercare etc I am not going to chastise and insult them.

Docking I have less of a problem with. I study agricultural science and you learn how the lambs tails are docked at 2 days old ( yes lambs are born with long tails!) the nerves are not fully formed so it is not so painful. It is done by something like an elastic band, which cuts off circulation and then the tail just drops off. Its probably similar in puppies, the lambs show no pain. If you are against docking you should probably not eat sheep haha!

From what information/research did your instructors draw when you were told that it is not SO painful. Pain is subjective. The hypothetical way to examine subjectively similar removal of parts would be to band a thumb and await the sensation/pain it creates until it falls off and the subsequent results. Lambs usually drop when banded which is an indicator of shock. Both dogs and sheep evolved with tails but nowadays due to the lack of husbandry in the large flocks where shepherds no longer watch their flocks this can produce hygiene problems. Some hill flocks aren't docked. Now whether these hygiene problems occur with or without tails needs researching. Normally tails would serve as a fly swat (as per horses) but if soiling in the wool is involved then persistent flies might strike regardless of tails or no tails. Like docking of dogs' tails it has become an "acceptable" practice which perhaps needs more questioning especially in USA where it now also includes cattle.
An owner of an animal does not have the right to mutilate that animal for choice/whim. It is being done for the wrong reasons. Good practice and good husbandry apply in all animal welfare. Do no harm. If surmising at the level of pain, stress or psychological outcome then better to leave well alone.