Sinn Fein's 10 point plan

Scofflaw

puffdragon wrote: »

Permabear wrote,Exactly.

I wonder whether SF even formulates these plans with an economically literate audience in mind. They seem designed only to convince the gullible that SF has found a magical formula to save us all—when, in fact, they will only result in more pointless spending, more waste, more debt, and fewer productive jobs.




And your post only proves their point,( just because you say it dont mean its true) the fact is neither you nor I know how much money is available for us to spend, only when you get a look at the books can you start to formulate proper spending regimes.
It is just as reckless to tell Europe we can pay this massive debt off as it is to assume we would be all-right without it, the only difference is that your telling no lies , which is what FF FG and LB are doing, lying to themselves to us and to Europe, you and I will be standing here in one years time when the first payment is due on the massive loan and the penny finally drops that we cant afford even the interest payments saying, why didn't we go it alone like Iceland, proud people who brought their own economy around without the massive debt imposed by the IMF, #

Er, Iceland got an IMF loan. As a proportion of their GDP, their bailout was 38.7% - ours is 41.9%. Not much of a difference, and that assumes we use all of ours.

puffdragon wrote: »

Everyone keeps repeating the FF led gibberish "how will we pay the guards" well what sense does it make to give the IMF the same amount of money in interest payments every year that it would take to pay not only the guards, but also the teachers and nurses. talk about stupid, I do despair of my countrymen some times!!

So do I, but perhaps for different reasons.

We have made similar levels level of interest repayments before - in 1990 a bit over 20% of the tax take went on debt interest, which is where debt interest repayments are expected to rise to this time.

puffdragon wrote: »

And just caught someone on the radio talking about our corporate tax rate again, there's no disguising it anymore, we've sold out full stop!!

Not so much a case of 'sold out' as ruined ourselves and now have a very poor bargaining position.

cordially,
Scofflaw

Zubeneschamali

Papa Smut wrote: »

So would you like to back up your statement that the DOE has generic school designs in place?

Here you are, more designs and standards than you could shake a stick at, all a click away from the page I googled up for you already:

http://www.education.ie/home/home.jsp?maincat=&pcategory=17216&ecategory=54380&sectionpage=12251&language=EN&link=link001&page=1&doc=50432

The oldest design (superseded) was published in 2004, so this is not news.

Rereading the 10 point plan, I don't think Sinn Féin are claiming that creating this generic design is part of their plan, they are just planning to spend €375 million rolling out 125 of the existing 16 classroom generic design.

Which wouldn't have been a bad idea 5 years ago.

Euroland

Jim236 wrote: »

Sorry to go slightly off-topic here but this suggestion that if you burn the bondholers and use on NPRF money instead, that you won't be able to borrow from the markets has consistently been thrown out there by both Fine Gael and Fianna Fáil and its complete fiction.

The whole reason the markets were looking for such high interest rates was because of the banking debt, which was because of the guarantee. If you separate the banking debt from the sovereign debt then you don't have that instability thats worrying the markets.

Just take yesterday as an example when Standard & Poor downgraded Ireland's credit rating yet again, despite the fact we've been bailed out by the IMF and ECB. And the interest rate being sought by the markets is still above 9%. Why? Because the markets aren't thick and they know we can't pay the money back.

Fianna Fáil and Fine Gael will have you believe that because we refuse to bailout the bondholders who took a risk by lending money to Irish banks and lost, that we wouldn't be able to seek money on the markets again. This is complete nonsense. Markets lend money solely on the ability to pay, and if we can show that we are tackling our sovereign debt and will be able to pay any borrowed money back, they won't care that we didn't bailout the bondholders in Germany, Britain and France. Going by that logic, the USA would have had the door shut in its face because they didn't bail out Lehman's Bros.

So anyone who thinks that accepting this bailout will lead to Ireland being able to borrow off the markets again is living in cuckooland. All it will mean is Ireland being saddled with €200 billion or so worth of debt that we can't pay back, and only delaying the inevitable which will be Ireland defaulting.

100%, I fully agree with you, refusing to bailout the bondholders is the only way forward. In many countries transfer of private debt to the state would constitute treason. We have to follow the Icelandic way (which is already pretty much OK by now) and also learn from the corporate default/restructuring experience. There is nothing wrong with refusing to save the private interests. We have to put our national interests first, ahead of the interests of the European private bondholders.

Pete_Cavan

Euroland wrote: »

100%, I fully agree with you, refusing to bailout the bondholders is the only way forward. In many countries transfer of private debt to the state would constitute treason. We have to follow the Icelandic way (which is already pretty much OK by now) and also learn from the corporate default/restructuring experience. There is nothing wrong with refusing to save the private interests. We have to put our national interests first, ahead of the interests of the European private bondholders.

Iceland TOOK the bailout, following the Icelandic way would be taking the bailout.

Euroland

ilovesleep wrote: »

By defaulting, would we not be telling the EU to fcuk off with their banks, then we'd be forced out of the euro and take on a new currency, which would be worthless. Could help with tourism and exports though. We'd be cheap again. But it will be awful for us because imports would be very expensive. By defaulting and taking on a new currency would we even have a deficit. A default and a new currency would probably mean working for a pound a day though.

Nonsense, backed by one of the strongest export sectors in the world, Ireland would be able to manage own currency reasonably well, particularly, if we off-load the bank debt.

Euroland

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

Iceland TOOK the bailout, following the Icelandic way would be taking the bailout.

Iceland didn’t' take it. It refused to pay the bank debt, until deep restructuring was agreed (some still in process). We could do the same with haircuts of 90-95% (pay only 5-10 cents for every Euro of debt).

Chucky the tree

Euroland wrote: »

Iceland didn’t' take it. It refused to pay the bank debt, until deep restructuring was agreed (some still in process). We could do the same with haircuts of 90-95% (pay only 5-10 cents for every Euro of debt).

Yes they did.

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=newsarchive&sid=a3Zf1f9IBUWg

Euroland

Chucky the tree wrote: »

Yes they did.

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=newsarchive&sid=a3Zf1f9IBUWg

Apparently we misunderstood each other; I meant they didn’t bail out the banks.

Chucky the tree

So we should take the IMF money but not bail out the banks then? Sinn Fein have simply refused to take any baillout.

TunaSaladBB

Someone should really tell Sinn Fein that they of all "parties" shouldn't be reminding us of the 80s

http://electionleaflets.mygov.ie/leaflets/43/?utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter

Monty Burnz

They seem to have a lot of ideas on how to spend money, but very few explanations of how to raise it (aside from the painless reference to th NPRF).

On a broader note, I'd argue that the idea of a government creating jobs is nonsense - at best they can try to facilitate business with infrastructure etc.

Monty Burnz

danbohan wrote: »

in a few weeks time enda and gilmore will apear outside the dept of finance looking like they had been told they had days to live to tell us , ''its much much worse than we thought and therfore .........................''

It probably will be much worse - FFailure have been wrong on the optimistic side with just about every statement they've made on the public finances in the last 4 years.

Zubeneschamali

The opposition parties were shown the books by the civil servants before Christmas to get them to back the IMF/ECB deal.

Monty Burnz

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

The opposition parties were shown the books by the civil servants before Christmas to get them to back the IMF/ECB deal.

Those would be the same Dept. of Fin civil servants who didn't spot anything amiss in the banks?

rOBeRt frETt

It's a fine plan it you like what the state has being doing with your money thus far, 100 primary care units at €5mil each might cover the insurance.

Nothing about rooting out dead wood

I like Sinn Fein I just can't stand socialism bacause it doesn't work. IT DOESN'T WORK

if any party can renegociate the terms of the bail out they might put a word in for me and my use those same powers to renegociate my credit card interest.- as if!

Pal

SF don't really have a clue about finance and economics.
Unfortunately people like me keep making this point and
consequently bumping their threads,
thus keeping them top of the page.
I will desist now