Moving a ceiling light

Lochlannach

We are doing up the kitchen/dining room at the moment and want to replace the light fitting in the dining area. However it's off to one side of the area with the new layout and I would like to move it so it's centred over the table.

Replacing the cables completely is not an option as I'm not taking down the whole ceiling.

I will, however, be cutting a hole between the two joists where the new light fitting will be positioned in order to mount a cross timber to anchor the light fitting and to fit the cable above the ceiling.

My question is what is the best way to go about extending the cables for the light from the original position to the new position (approximately 1m). Is an ordinary junction box ok to use (this will then go above the plasterboard ceiling) or would some other type of connector be a better bet?

jeepers101

Yes a junction box is fine or use these crimps...http://www.theelectricalwarehouse.com/product.php/1171190/kompress-is2-5-2-5vg-red-butt-splice-terminal-1-5mm-x-1-5mm-pack-size-100

indie armada

junction box is fine once its accessible incase of a future problem and so who ever comes after you will be able to locate it. minimum of a 15 amp connector strip should be used.

cast_iron

A standard junction (obo) box is best.

I wouldn't use the above crimps for mains cables. After you do the crimp, you are bound to have some exposed metal as the plastic insulation will be cut through. I don't think they are designed for mains.

jeepers101

cast_iron wrote: »

I don't think they are designed for mains.

What else would they be for?

Bruthal

jeepers101 wrote: »

What else would they be for?

Well i wouldnt use them myself where they will be hidden, the obo box with connectors would be far better.

Does the OP definitely need the cables extended, maybe they come from the direction your moving the light to?

jeepers101

robbie7730 wrote: »

Well i wouldnt use them myself where they will be hidden, the obo box with connectors would be far better.

Does the OP definitely need the cables extended, maybe they come from the direction your moving the light to?

I'd say he'd have thought of that already

Seriously though those crimps will be fine if you use the proper crimping tool, that's what they're for.

Bruthal

jeepers101 wrote: »

I'd say he'd have thought of that already

Seriously though those crimps will be fine if you use the proper crimping tool, that's what they're for.

We dont know if he thought of it, can you say he definitely has. So whats wrong with mentioning the possibility? He might assume the cables only go to that spot where the light is, and not thought of where they are coming from. Even a sparks cant tell what direction they come from for certain until the old light is taken down.

I would again say i believe them crimps are more suitable for places where they are out in the open, like panel wiring etc, not in hidden areas in house walls or ceilings. Thats just me though.

M cebee

obo and connectors probably

i think you have to use heatshrink with those crimps or else an enclosure -to comply

Bruthal

I wonder what would be the situation on soldering and heat shrinking in situations like this, the join is then hardly any bigger than the cable.

indie armada

somehow i doubt the op has the correct crimping tool, i could be wrong though. i would have thought it was standard practise to leave jb's accessable, i dont mean fixed to the ceiling, but in the attic overhead as opposed to plastering them in where you will never get to them again.
as for the crimps mentioned, i would have assosiated them with the motoring trade.

Bruthal

indie armada wrote: »

somehow i doubt the op has the correct crimping tool, i could be wrong though. i would have thought it was standard practise to leave jb's accessable, i dont mean fixed to the ceiling, but in the attic overhead as opposed to plastering them in where you will never get to them again.
as for the crimps mentioned, i would have assosiated them with the motoring trade.

I dont like to put JB`s where they are not accessible myself. In the case of a light i would say its safe enough once done properly. Simple as it might seem to connect lighting cables with connectors in an obo box, a diy job would be unlikely to match a sparks doing it. So where they would be in the ceiling in this case, id recommend a sparks for that.

I would not rule out the cable passing where the new light is going either though, and so not needing an extension, but it rarely works out that nicely though. But worth checking.

DublinDilbert

robbie7730 wrote: »

I wonder what would be the situation on soldering and heat shrinking in situations like this, the join is then hardly any bigger than the cable.

I often wondering about soldering like this too. The join would be very strong and electrically sound.

Buford T Justice

jeepers101 wrote: »

What else would they be for?

Auto wiring, 12V circuits in cars / vans.

Bruthal

DublinDilbert wrote: »

I often wondering about soldering like this too. The join would be very strong and electrically sound.

Yes practically as good as the original cable.

jeepers101

robbie7730 wrote: »

We dont know if he thought of it, can you say he definitely has. So whats wrong with mentioning the possibility? He might assume the cables only go to that spot where the light is, and not thought of where they are coming from. Even a sparks cant tell what direction they come from for certain until the old light is taken down.

Point taken Robbie, he might not know- usually nothing a quick shake of the cables couldn't determine though.

M cebee wrote: »

i think you have to use heatshrink with those crimps or else an enclosure -to comply

Yes there are a certain type of uninsulated crimp that you would have to heat shrink once the connection is made. The ones I have shown are insulated.

robbie7730 wrote: »

I wonder what would be the situation on soldering and heat shrinking in situations like this, the join is then hardly any bigger than the cable.

Yes you can if you know how. Its called a western union splice.

robbie7730 wrote: »

I dont like to put JB`s where they are not accessible myself. In the case of a light i would say its safe enough once done properly. Simple as it might seem to connect lighting cables with connectors in an obo box, a diy job would be unlikely to match a sparks doing it. So where they would be in the ceiling in this case, id recommend a sparks for that.

I agree Robbie, any connection where you have a screw should not be located in an inaccessible location. This is why I am advocating using a crimped connection. There are other ways to do it but this is the easiest, safest and probably cheapest way to get over this hurdle. Crimp sets including the tool and crimps can be bought for under 20 euro.

M cebee

yes i can see they are insulated crimps:)

they won't comply without an enclosure or heatshrink- i'd say

Bruthal

jeepers101 wrote: »

Yes you can if you know how. Its called a western union splice.

Well i know it can be done of course, im saying how would it be rules wise. Its hardly a difficult task, although much easier on lighting circuits than on a cooker circuit for example.

A western union splice? A solder joint would do i think:D. Its not going to be used for swinging out of.

cast_iron

jeepers101 wrote: »

There are other ways to do it but this is the easiest, safest and probably cheapest way to get over this hurdle. Crimp sets including the tool and crimps can be bought for under 20 euro.

I'm not sure any of that would be considered easier, safer and cheaper than an obo-box with connectors.

Between buying a special crimp tool, a set of crimps, heat shrink and possibly all the solder equipment, a well made connection with terminal connectors would do as good a job with a tenth of the work, time and cost of all that.

jeepers101

cast_iron wrote: »

I'm not sure any of that would be considered easier, safer and cheaper than an obo-box with connectors.

Between buying a special crimp tool, a set of crimps, heat shrink and possibly all the solder equipment, a well made connection with terminal connectors would do as good a job with a tenth of the work, time and cost of all that.

I have already said I don't believe terminal connectors should not be used in inaccessible areas.

Your options then would be to crimp OR solder the cable within the junction box. Hence you would not be buying crimp equipment, heat shrink equipment and solder equipment. One would suffice. I believe the crimp set would be the cheapest and easiest option.

M cebee

-under floorboards is considered accessible,junction boxes are allowed

-solder joints to be avoided in power wiring
rules 526

afaik crimps need enclosure or heat shrink (to re-instate the cable)

Lochlannach

Good to see I got some interest - bloody connection let me down over the weekend so I couldn't get on here.

I'm presuming the cable will have to be extended as it's going to be moving away from the switch and towards the dividing wall between ourselves and the neighbours - it's therefore very unlikely that the cabling is coming from that direction. I'll find out for definite one of the next couple of nights - removing the old kitchen and ripping out the floor have been my primary concern for the last couple of days.

I'm a bit concerned about having the junction box accessible - the only way I could do that is to have it below the ceiling and that would look bad.

Bruthal

Lochlannach wrote: »

Good to see I got some interest - bloody connection let me down over the weekend so I couldn't get on here.

I'm presuming the cable will have to be extended as it's going to be moving away from the switch and towards the dividing wall between ourselves and the neighbours - it's therefore very unlikely that the cabling is coming from that direction. I'll find out for definite one of the next couple of nights - removing the old kitchen and ripping out the floor have been my primary concern for the last couple of days.

I'm a bit concerned about having the junction box accessible - the only way I could do that is to have it below the ceiling and that would look bad.

In the ceiling is ok once its done right, and would be accessible if needed to be. Buried in a tiled wall etc would be considered more not accesible. The connectors in obo box will be fine in that setup feeding lights. If you were able to take up a floorboard above that position it would make it all easier possibly. But sometimes clearing a room and lifting flooring/carpet can be a fair job in itself.

M cebee

the rules says under a floorboard is accessible

it recommends to mark the spot with an X

it's not rocket science

Bruthal

Not much in electircal work is.