Cameron admits multiculturalism is failing

Nodin

opo wrote: »

......... you tortured the sentence to try make it otherwise and posed a loaded question that I have refused to indulge.
.........

The sentence in full -

Source vetted immigrants from the most compatible cultures and races who are incentivised to contribute and overhaul the asylum system for good measure into a 3 month long process - tops.

(my bold)

"cultures and races". I'm interested in the "races" part, why its a factor, and wish to know what races you deem incompatible and why, in your own words. It's a very, very, very straightforward question and, as you're only explaining yourself, it should be simple to answer.

opo wrote: »

.....that I have refused to indulge....

Well at least you're dropping the pretence of having answered it.

opo wrote: »

I have a problem with (..........)need to bother. Untill now.

Helpdesk/pm the mod/feedback.

opo

Nodin wrote: »

The sentence in full -

(my bold)

"cultures and races". I'm interested in the "races" part and wish to know what races you deem incompatible and why, in your own words. It's a very, very, very straightforward question and, as you're only explaining yourself, it should be simple to answer.

Once again see the AND (my bold)

Nodin wrote: »

Well at least you're dropping the pretence of having answered it.

I answered it several times - I simply didn't indulge the spite filled, twisted version you posed - hence your tantrum.

Nodin wrote: »

Helpdesk/pm the mod/feedback.

Well let's agree on one thing - You're the complete expert here. I'm learning fast though.


And you are still avoiding the answer I gave in the last two posts for some mysterious reason despite your insistence that I explain myself. Is there a problem there too?

Nodin

opo wrote: »

Once again see the AND (my bold)

.

I don't see how race being a factor in your proposal as opposed to the only factor somehow means that aspect can't be questioned and scrutinised.

opo wrote: »

I answered it several times .

Ne'er the once.

Nodin

opo wrote: »

And you are still avoiding the answer I gave in the last two posts for some mysterious reason.

That contradicts the earlier statement which clearly makes a distinction between race and culture.

Now, if there was a tract of prospective people out there that were Irish in every aspect but race - I would think they would make excellent candidates for immigration - regardless of what race they were. But these people do not exist as far as I am aware. Please feel free to correct me if I am wrong.

I'd read that as meaning race was irrelevant, yet you yourself seperated culture and race earlier.......

opo

Nodin wrote: »

Ne'er the once.

Not the way you wanted, I agree.

opo

Nodin wrote: »

That contradicts the earlier statement which clearly makes a distinction between race and culture.

Link?

Nodin wrote: »

I'd read that as meaning race was irrelevant, yet you yourself seperated culture and race earlier.......

Where? Are race and culture the one? - why are there two words in the dictionary for the one entity?

Nodin

opo wrote: »

Link?

Where?

Being obtuse again, I see.

It really isn't all that complicated. Source vetted immigrants from the most compatible cultures and races who are incentivised to contribute and overhaul the asylum system for good measure into a 3 month long process - tops.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=70713874&postcount=235

You clearly distinguish between the two, and refuse to explain what races you deem incompatible and why, in your own words.

Nodin

opo wrote: »

Link?

Where? Are race and culture the one? - ?

Of course not, yet you seem to deem race a significant factor in determining compatibility, of equal significance to culture. You refuse, however, to explain what races are incompatible and why.

opo

Nodin wrote: »

Being obtuse again, I see.


http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=70713874&postcount=235

You clearly distinguish between the two, and refuse to explain what races you deem incompatible and why, in your own words.

The disputed part of the sentence so is cultures and races

We use the word or to distinguish and the word and to join. If you look really closely you will see I used the word and

In an attempt to offer something to illustrate - I hypothesised here:

Now, if there was a tract of prospective people out there that were Irish in every aspect but race - I would think they would make excellent candidates for immigration - regardless of what race they were. But these people do not exist as far as I am aware. Please feel free to correct me if I am wrong.

Yet you are still deeply unhappy even when I try imagine a scenario where race would be the only consideration in terms of difference.

Is it the inability to grasp the simplest concept here that's making the bigger ones confusing?

Nodin

opo wrote: »

Is it the inability to grasp the simplest concept here that's making the bigger ones confusing?

Your initial statement remarked on compatible "cultures and races" - two factors.

opo wrote: »

In an attempt to offer something to illustrate - I hypothesized here:

To me, that later statement contradicts the first by implying race is irrelevant. Are you saying you misspoke earlier?

opo

Nodin wrote: »

Your initial statement remarked on compatible "cultures and races" - two factors.

Congratulations. You finally made it. Two non-exclusive factors as per my original post. There are of course many other factors - language - education -religion - infrastructure etc that come to mind that one might consider in the real world when discussing immigration

Nodin wrote: »

To me, that later statement contradicts the first by implying race is irrelevant. Are you saying you misspoke earlier?

No - I concocted a fantasy scenario where one factor might be isolated (as a sole point of difference) and used for criteria exclusively and suggested that on its own - it would not be a problem for me personally. It would be unfair for me to comment for the rest of the population. In a society that sees discrimination for peoples gender - age - sexual orientation etc - I would be quite surprised if this opinion was universal - even in this fantasy scenario.

When we move away from the fantasy ie in the real world - there are a multiplicity of similarities and differences. The more acute and numerous these differences are - the greater the potential for problems and social deterioration.

I have also given links to studies that prove this. I am not offering an exclusive personal opinion - I am reflecting on the realities of life where culture, race, language, education, religion etc etc are points of difference that present difficulties for all societies dealing with both the short and extremely long terrm effects of immigration.

And I am saying quite clearly - that if we have a choice of immigrants - we would do our society a great injustice by not excercising our discretion - deciding who we want here - based on the experience of ourselves and others.

Dwellingdweller

gurramok wrote: »

Typical one-liner response with zero input to the discussion. How about abiding by Western values of freedom, tolerance and equality for women & gays?

The more I read about the debate between Western values and the seemingly "backward" values of Middle-Eastern extremists, the more it seems that:

# the endgame for a culturally sophisticated country, i.e France/Britain, is one where the typical Western values of 'freedom', 'tolerance', and 'equality' will become less and less important. the very ideas of 'liberté' and 'egalité' will be swallowed up by the idea of 'fraternité'. remember that all Muslims believe they belong to a fraternity and are brothers connected by their beliefs.

# Western culture becomes more and more diluted as countries become more and more tolerant of other cultures. as a poster in this thread has said before, it only takes one strong outside culture to come in and absorb the culture of a country that is basically a cultural vacuum. therefore:

# tolerance, freedom, and equality create a cultural vacuum, always. as the European countries have moved away from Imperialism/Colonialism their power has waned and faded. obviously Implism./Colonlism. is "morally wrong", but it provides the best opportunities to create strong culture.

just one question; when did the West turn into this freedom-loving, peace-loving, equality-loving realm? it seems WW1 and WW2 turned us into poofs afraid of having a little backbone for our culture.

wasper

The Brits are the worst for integrating. Look at the 1m UK citizens living in spain most can't speak the language & most living next to each other & meet in British pubs & east in english food outlets.
The same was when I was working in the UAE. They had their own pubs in hotels. if a non white entered & ordered a drink he was questioned about an ID to prove being a European. That was in the 80s. I lived in Greece & the same can be said in Spain.
And we shouldn't forget the Raj in India.
For me if a man or woman living in the UK, work hard & pays their bills, what difference does it make if they were foreign cloths or eat foreign 'muck'?

JustinDee

wasper wrote: »

The Brits are the worst for integrating

And the Irish too.

opo

wasper wrote: »

The Brits are the worst for integrating. Look at the 1m UK citizens living in spain most can't speak the language & most living next to each other & meet in British pubs & east in english food outlets.?

The British you refer to don't tend to go to Spain as regular immigants might go abroad to work and settle in traditional communities. They mostly go on holiday or are retired there and are concentrated in greenfield resort towns/settings where the arthritis gets a break and the turnover of people keeps it all fresh.

Naturally there are a lot of British opening and running businesses in such a setting. Few of them would have learned Spanish either at an early age and I suspect - most of the two categories I have mentioned would have little interest or real use for fluent Spanish anyway. It is equally unlikely that Spanish cuisine would ever replace native tastes for either category.

I suspect that none are on Spanish welfare or would be entitled to a whole pile from the Spanish taxpayer - rather, they are virtually all net contributors - spending plenty of money and welcome all the more for it.

A poor example of integration - or lack of - given the topic of debate.

JustinDee

opo wrote: »

The British you refer to don't tend to go to Spain as regular immigants might go abroad to work and settle in traditional communities. They mostly go on holiday or are retired there and are concentrated in greenfield resort towns/settings where the arthritis gets a break and the turnover of people keeps it all fresh

Naturally there are a lot of British opening and running businesses in such a setting. Few of them would have learned Spanish either at an early age and I suspect - most of the two categories I have mentioned would have little interest or real use for fluent Spanish anyway. It is equally unlikely that Spanish cuisine would ever replace native tastes for either category.

I suspect that none are on Spanish welfare or would be entitled to a whole pile from the Spanish taxpayer - rather, they are virtually all net contributors - spending plenty of money and welcome all the more for it

So you've seen Benidorm on ITV then, given the generalistic content of your post. What next? Foreigners in Norway are either oil-riggers or on IT contracts?
To say that Brits and Irish probably don't have need for the language in Spain is very weak, fella. Very weak.
Why bother with the language when all you do is hang with fellow compatriots? They set up their own little communities.
You've no idea who is on the Spanish welfare roustabout so that suspicion of yours is also too flimsy. Foreigners in Spain will make avail of the national Health Service, tax breaks on properties, if on the islands will make avail of govt travel and business support and grants. The list is no different to anywhere else.
Guess what? Muslims can spend money and be "net contributors" too. Same with any other folk who choose to live amongst you and me.

opo wrote: »

A poor example of integration - or lack of - given the topic of debate.

Yes, Brits and Irish are a poor example of integration.
Good to see you finally see.

opo

JustinDee wrote: »

To say that Brits and Irish probably don't have need for the language in Spain is very weak, fella. Very weak.

Meaning they need the language.

JustinDee wrote: »

Why bother with the language when all you do is hang with fellow compatriots? They set up their own little communities.

Meaning they don't.



You win.

JustinDee

You're contradicting yourself.
You slam a certain section of society for allegedly refusing to 'integrate' yet when another certain section does exactly that elsewhere, its to be proving your point while not, in your eyes, being a good example?
I think you're just arguing for the sake of it whoever you are, "opo".

Nodin

opo wrote: »

And I am saying quite clearly - that if we have a choice of immigrants - we would do our society a great injustice by not excercising our discretion - deciding who we want here - based on the experience of ourselves and others.

What experience would that be?

opo

Nodin wrote: »

What experience would that be?

The experiences of o-u-r-s-e-l-v-e-s AND o-t-h-e-r-s of i-m-m-i-g-r-a-t-i-o-n.

Exactly as per my sentence.

The two combined.

Not just one and not just the other.

Both if you will.

Together.

Maybe at different times - maybe even different sentences - different venues are possible - but definitely, as a whole, in conclusion.

opo

JustinDee wrote: »

You're contradicting yourself.
You slam a certain section of society for allegedly refusing to 'integrate' yet when another certain section does exactly that elsewhere, its to be proving your point while not, in your eyes, being a good example?

Am I being particularly abstruse? I just don't think that retirement migration in the resorts of Andalucia is quite the same as, say, the banlieues in Paris.

JustinDee wrote: »

I think you're just arguing for the sake of it whoever you are, "opo".

Try not take it too seriously. This is an semi-anonymous forum on a vast platform - not a G8 summit. We're not deciding policy or about to change the world anytime soon.

JustinDee

opo wrote: »

Am I being particularly abstruse? I just don't think that retirement migration in the resorts of Andalucia is quite the same as, say, the banlieues in Paris

You're assuming and generalising incorrectly. Ex-pats in Spain, the Canaries and Portugal are all retirees? Oh come on.
Also, if this you didn't take all this "seriously", you wouldn't be replying as often as you do.

opo

JustinDee wrote: »

You're assuming and generalising incorrectly. Ex-pats in Spain, the Canaries and Portugal are all retirees?

I didnt claim they all were. Just a significant portion. However, if you could sort out a few links to non-resort or resort areas with signicant numbers of British, working/unemployed, living in ethnic ghettoes/enclaves - at odds with the host society to the point of periodically attracting highly charged public & media debate at national level- possibly even political upheaval - that would inform the topic - I would happily stand corrected.

JustinDee wrote: »

Also, if this you didn't take all this "seriously", you wouldn't be replying as often as you do.

I do plenty of things in my free time that I don't take seriously and plenty of things that I do. This is one that I don't for the reasons given in my previous post. I won't judge you if you do. Truth be known - I don't really care.

Nodin

opo wrote: »

The experiences of o-u-r-s-e-l-v-e-s AND o-t-h-e-r-s of i-m-m-i-g-r-a-t-i-o-n.

Exactly as per my sentence.

The two combined.

Not just one and not just the other.

Both if you will.

Together.

Maybe at different times - maybe even different sentences - different venues are possible - but definitely, as a whole, in conclusion.

You said you'd base your choice of immigrants based on the experiences of others. What 'experiences' do you refer to specifically or are you speaking generally?

opo

Nodin wrote: »

You said you'd base your choice of immigrants based on the experiences of others. What 'experiences' do you refer to specifically or are you speaking generally?

I don't want to complicate this Nodin. Too many misunderstandings. I'll stick to my original answer. Have you an original thought or question?

Nodin

opo wrote: »

I don't want to complicate this Nodin. Too many misunderstandings. I'll stick to my original answer. Have you an original thought or question?

Have you any position you're prepared to lay out, explain and stand over in specific detail?

opo

Nodin wrote: »

Have you any position you're prepared to lay out, explain and stand over in specific detail?

Yes. You?

JustinDee

opo wrote: »

I didnt claim they all were. Just a significant portion. However, if you could sort out a few links to non-resort or resort areas with signicant numbers of British, working/unemployed, living in ethnic ghettoes/enclaves - at odds with the host society to the point of periodically attracting highly charged public & media debate at national level- possibly even political upheaval - that would inform the topic - I would happily stand corrected

There's no black labour economy involving British and Irish in the likes of those countries, Scandinavia or Germany then. Everyone blends, is packed with money and learns the language. Unlike the dreaded muslims who just set up amongst themselves and don't contribute.
If you believe myths like this then I guess people will never learn despite what has happened before. The survivors of my mothers family came here in '44 despite all sorts of distorted
rubbish at official level and in the neighbourhoods about how their likes weren't christian or irish enough.
You want 'links'. Try reading some Dermot Keogh and Brian Girvin.
Not too different to the kind of irrational prejudices that can be read here.

opo

JustinDee wrote: »

If you believe myths like this

Spare me. I don't want your life story unless you start a thread on it.

JustinDee

opo wrote: »

Spare me. I don't want your life story unless you start a thread on it.

Well that's me told then.
If there's something you don't understand or like then carry on ignoring. Some would say that's part of the problem.

opo

JustinDee wrote: »

Well that's me told then.
If there's something you don't understand or like then carry on ignoring. Some would say that's part of the problem.

It's not really. You failing to provide links to your argument is. There hasn't even been a link that states there is 1m British in Spain never mind anything else.

JustinDee

opo wrote: »

It's not really. You failing to provide links to your argument is. There hasn't even been a link that states there is 1m British in Spain never mind anything else.

Links??? I'm not quoting search results here. I do have a mind of my own. Have you ever even lived abroad for a good stretch? Its you who is generalising. Not me.
As I suggested, if you don't get it, ignore.

opo

JustinDee wrote: »

Links??? I'm not quoting search results here. I do have a mind of my own. Have you ever even lived abroad for a good stretch? Its you who is generalising. Not me.
As I suggested, if you don't get it, ignore.

Did you meet all the British in Spain whilst abroad - or in the other wildy exotic places you have been to. Like Spain. What are the 4 million Muslims in Germany really like? Is Africa big?

JustinDee

opo wrote: »

Did you meet all the British in Spain whilst abroad - or in the other wildy exotic places you have been to. Like Spain. What are the 4 million Muslims in Germany really like? Is Africa big?

Ok doke. sitting at a pc posting about Britain, Spain, Germany, Australia or Norway is obviously far more tangible and valid experience-wise compared to say, actually spending time there.
Sure. And you still "dont care" too no doubt?
Classy.

opo

JustinDee wrote: »

Ok doke. sitting at a pc posting about Britain, Spain, Germany, Australia or Norway is obviously far more tangible and valid experience-wise compared to say, actually spending time there.
Sure. And you still "dont care" too no doubt?
Classy.

LOL

Discussing a hugely complex issue on a forum - hosted on the greatest information storage bank mankind has ever known - but still "knowing my own mind" to make bizzare random points rather than refer to the freely available facts.

Classy and brains to burn.

JustinDee

opo wrote: »

LOL

Discussing a hugely complex issue on a forum - hosted on the greatest information storage bank mankind has ever known - but still "knowing my own mind" to make bizzare random points rather than refer to the freely available facts.

Classy and brains to burn.

Try getting out there. It really does broaden the mind. Retroactively cherry-picking whatever suits you while sitting on your keyster actually pales in comparison.
You "don't care" indeed.

opo

JustinDee wrote: »

Try getting out there. It really does broaden the mind. Retroactively cherry-picking whatever suits you while sitting on your keyster actually pales in comparison.
You "don't care" indeed.

Are you simply confusing "out there" on a bar stool, droning on about your last trip to Benidorm with your faux folksy little sayings to anyone left awake - with an internet forum?

JustinDee

Nope, not at all. I have either lived or spent enough time in each of those countries (plus a couple more) to know what its like there.

A lot more enjoyable and credible than retroactively wiki-wagging 'facts' on the internet.
Give it a go sometime, as I suggested.

opo

JustinDee wrote: »

Nope, not at all. I have either lived or spent enough time in each of those countries (plus a couple more) to know what its like there.

A lot more enjoyable and credible than retroactively wiki-wagging 'facts' on the internet.
Give it a go sometime, as I suggested.

Okkilly dokkily Tex.