Fine Gael policy to end compusory Irish till Leaving Cert

mike65

Just heard it mentioned on radio.

Is this the saviour of the language?

The reaction when this was put forward as policy in 2005
http://www.rte.ie/news/2005/1116/irish.html

Renn

Has he proclaimed to be the saviour of the Irish language, whatever the hell that means anyway?

cock robin

mike65 wrote: »

Just heard it mentioned on radio.

Is this the saviour of the language?

The reaction when this was put forward as policy in 2005
http://www.rte.ie/news/2005/1116/irish.html

céin fà

snickerpuss

End compulsory Irish until the Leaving?
You mean up to, ie- compulsory til then.
Don't know how I feel about this. And I'm a Gaelgeoir with a degree in it!

IvySlayer

Restructure the entire thing.

Learning Irish poetry and stories was ****ing ridiculous and it has not once benfited me in life. Start teaching in like the way French/German is. Considering Irish has to be learned through all of our school life and Irish is still dying as a language, is that not a sign the current cirrculum is not suitable?

fulhamfanincork

Irish leaving cert is based on the english leaving format which is ridiculous.

mickydoomsux

About time. We need to completely do away with Irish being taught in schools, it's a waste of time.

Replace it with a international language that actually has some kind of value.

Earthhorse

I think a proper analysis of the Irish language, what it means to its people and its place in the education system is long overdue.

AnonoBoy

Good. This will mean that when I have those awful 'doing my leaving cert again but wearing my slippers at the exam' dreams at least I will be exempt from having to dream-study the Modh Coinniolach.

david75

I was voting Labour anyways but **** this..No way can they do that..another bullet in the revolver of political suicide the FG clowns seem to want to put to their heads

Aodan83

IvySlayer wrote: »

Restructure the entire thing.

Learning Irish poetry and stories was ****ing ridiculous and it has not once benfited me in life. Start teaching in like the way French/German is.

The LC higher paper has as much, if not more, poetry on it than the higher English paper. It's a ridiculous amount of effort to have to put in to a subject you don't really need other than to get into college.

ballsymchugh

i wish that someone would just split the curriculum into language and literature.
the literature should be optional, but the language shouldn't. teach it like a foreign language. if a student is strong at that then they can take the literature curriculum for the leaving. i would've taken that before english.

Coriolanus

Thhe current system doesn't work. Most people leave school able to recite rote answers and write a catch all essay and that's it.

If people want it to be compulsory then it needs a radical overhaul.

ballsymchugh

Aodan83 wrote: »

The LC higher paper has as much, if not more, poetry on it than the higher English paper. It's a ridiculous amount of effort to have to put in to a subject you don't really need other than to get into college.

you could also argue that for the english curriculum too though. as long as people are taught how to spell and structure a sentence correctly, then why would they need to learn poetry by yeats and keats, or plays by shakespeare in an obsolete form of a language?

pedro ferio-vti

Completely agree they should teach it more like a foreign language but I really wouldn't like to see it being completely erased from our curriculum. I really wish I was taught Gaeilge better in school even though I did reasonably well by the exams standards I can't speak fluently at all which is a disgrace considering we are all taught it for 12 years +.

I would like to take a look at the way Welsh is taught and see if we could learn anything from them considering their similar situation however their native language is still very much known and spoken daily among regular folk which is at complete contrast to ourselves.

Coriolanus

ballsymchugh wrote: »

you could also argue that for the english curriculum too though. as long as people are taught how to spell and structure a sentence correctly, then why would they need to learn poetry by yeats and keats, or plays by shakespeare in an obsolete form of a language?

most people are reasonably fluent speakers in English when they reach school. The same cqnt be said of Irish.

david75

mickydoomsux wrote: »

About time. We need to completely do away with Irish being taught in schools, it's a waste of time.

Replace it with a international language that actually has some kind of value.

We'll see you out waving your union jack when the Queen visits no doubt?

there's nothing wrong with the Irish language but everything is wrong with the way it's taught and its cirriculum.

It's the last shred of our own culture we have left, we cling to it or just become a province of the Uk(which we are pretty much in every other aspect) our language being the one thing we have left to seperate us..

this would be devastating ..

Renn

Waving your Union Jack, wtf

Snakeblood

david75 wrote: »

We'll see you out waving your union jack when the Queen visits no doubt?

there's nothing wrong with the Irish language but everything is wrong with the way it's taught and its cirriculum.

It's the last shred of our own culture we have left, we cling to it or just become a province of the Uk(which we are pretty much in every other aspect) our language being the one thing we have left to seperate us..

this would be devastating ..

Not everyone who thinks Irish is a waste of time is ready to welcome 800 YEARS OF blahblahblah. You sound sort of whiny.

ballsymchugh

ballsymchugh wrote: »

you could also argue that for the english curriculum too though. as long as people are taught how to spell and structure a sentence correctly, then why would they need to learn poetry by yeats and keats, or plays by shakespeare in an obsolete form of a language?

It's in your first language.. It's not about the poetry, it's about the fact you have to do a literary review or whatever its called on it in your second or third language.

Such a fuking waste of time.. I can still remember all the verbs you put after "muscliun an poem seo.." but i can't remember how to ask someone for directions to the shop.. Anyone who defends that method of teaching a language is a plank.

Snakeblood

Deleted User wrote: »

It's in your first language.. It's not about the poetry, it's about the fact you have to do a literary review or whatever its called on it in your second or third language.

Such a fuking waste of time.. I can still remember all the verbs you put after "muscliun an poem seo.." but i can't remember how to ask someone for directions to the shop.. Anyone who defends that method of teaching a language is a plank.

'Ca bhfuil an siopa?'

Although I'd be screwed if they answered in Irish.

Earthhorse

Deleted User wrote: »

Such a fuking waste of time.. I can still remember all the verbs you put after "muscliun an poem seo.." but i can't remember how to ask someone for directions to the shop.

But you know how to ask for permission to go to the shop, right?

krudler

I'd love if I could speak Irish fluently, but since the way its taught in schools is a joke after, what, 13 years? of learning it in school I cant string a sentence together, its ridiculous, you could learn it in a few months if taught properly. I can probably speak more French than Irish and only did that for 3 years in school.

david75

Speaks volumes more about the qulaity of educators we've sent out over the years than it does about the language. Wish people would see that. One of the Best education systems in the world me hoop

Snakeblood

mike65 wrote: »

Just heard it mentioned on radio.

Is this the saviour of the language?

The reaction when this was put forward as policy in 2005
http://www.rte.ie/news/2005/1116/irish.html

It's a good idea for people, but politically it's stupid. you just have to look at people seriously advancing the idea of a debate in Irish. That's not about communicating, it's about pandering to people who have a chip on their shoulder about Irish.

Liamario

I think most people would love to be able to speak the language fluently, but what's the point in the end.
All languages die in the end. Even English will evolve into something else.
Clearly, the curriculum and the teaching methods suck. If we moved to an Irish speaking country, we'd be comfortable with the language in 3 years. But a decade in our schools and we still can't have a propoer conversation using it.
It's a real shame people, but unfortunately, that's the reality.

ballsymchugh

Nevore wrote: »

most people are reasonably fluent speakers in English when they reach school. The same cqnt be said of Irish.

true, although was referring to the post that about the amount of poetry etc making the course ridiculous. there's not many opportunities to refer to english poetry in the daily run of things either. nothing against learning it if you want, but if you're making the case against the irish literature, then the same should apply to english literature.

mickydoomsux

david75 wrote: »

We'll see you out waving your union jack when the Queen visits no doubt?

Nah, got better things to do with my time.

Irish is a dead language. It's an utter waste of time and money to teach it, translate all government documents into Irish, etc. We are global citizens now, we have no time for teaching something that a tiny percentage of people on our tiny little island use.

deise go deo

Creideann muid gur cheart don Ghaeilge bheith mar Chroí-Ábhar Ardteiste a dhéanfaidh gach dalta staidear uirthí.

Má dhéantar roghnach í creideann muid go dhéanfaidh sé an dochair don teanga.
Ní roghnóidh daltaí an Ghaeilge toisc:
1- Bíonn teangacha níos deacaire san Ardteist
2- Tá dhá pháipear sa Ghaeilge- 7.5 uair v 2-3 uair ag ábhar eile
3- Beidh sí in iomaíocht le hábhair eilse atá riachtanach don tríú leibhéal
4- Ní bheidh an Ghaeilge ar fáil i ngach scoil a thuilleadh
5- Beidh díspreagadh ann ón mbunscoil ar aghaidh.

Tá teangacha roghnach don GCSE i Sasana o 2001 agys thit an líon daltaí ag staidéar teangacha go tubaisteach go 44% ó 78%. Beidh an scéal níos measa fós in Éirinn

IS GÁ AN CÚRSA A ATHRÚ SEACHAS É A DHÉANAMH ROGHNACH

____________________________________________________

We believe the Irish Language should be a Core Leaving Cert Subject that all students should study.

Making the Irish language optional will cause irreparable damage to the future of our native tongue.
If it is made optional students will not choose Irish as a subject because:
1- Languages are harder subjects to study for the Leaving Cert
2- There are 2 papers in Irish- 7.5 hours v 2-3 hours (most other subjects)
3- Irish would have to compete with other subjects for third level (eg biology for medicine)
4- Irish would no longer be available in every school
5- Students will be deterred from studying Irish from Primary school onwards

Languages have been optional for the GCSE in England since 2001.The amount of students studying languages has fallen from 78% to 44%. This scenario will be even worse in Ireland.

THE COURSE NEEDS TO BE REVAMPED AND REVITALISED- NOT MADE OPTIONAL
Cur Síos:Dhá ábhar don Ghaeilge a fhorbairt ag an dara leibhéal le dhá pháipéar scrúdaithe ar leith don Ardteis-

1- "Teanga na Gaeilge" a mhúinfí do gach mac léinn: ag múineadh agus ag measúnú na scileanna tuisceana, labhartha, léite agus scríofa ag baint leasa as an bhFráma Coiteann Eorpach mar thagairt agus ag cuimsiú feasachta teanga.

2- "Litríocht agus Saíocht na Gaeilge" le déanamh ag mic léinn ardleibhéil amháin agus le múineadh go comhtháite le "Teanga na Gaeilge" ag an leibhéal cuí.

____________________________________________________

Develop two subjects relating to Irish at secondary level with two separate exams for the Leaving Cert-

1- "Irish Language" should be taught to every student: understanding, speaking, reading and writing skills should be taught and assessed using the Common European Framework of Reference for Languages. This subject should cover language awareness as well.

2- "Litríocht agus Saíocht na Gaeilge" should be an option for advanced students only and it should be taught in an integrated manner with "Irish Language" at the appropriate level.

Here is what is up on the facebook group for Keeping Irish as a compulsory subject.


For my part, I would be genuinly shocked if Enda went ahead with this Idea. It will be opposed every step of the way.

deise go deo

mickydoomsux wrote: »

Irish is a dead language. It's an utter waste of time and money to teach it, translate all government documents into Irish, etc. We are global citizens now, we have no time for teaching something that a tiny percentage of people on our tiny little island use.

No it is not. :rolleyes:

The other big thing about the curriculum is that it doesn't allow full immersion.. If you want to explain the hundred different emotions the poetry inspires in you, ya have to use english.

There should never be a word of English in an Irish class. We should be taught conversational Irish from day 1..

Snakeblood

deise go deo wrote: »

Here is what is up on the facebook group for Keeping Irish as a compulsory subject.


For my part, I would be genuinly shocked if Enda went ahead with this Idea. It will be opposed every step of the way.

None of those deal with the central 'Why should we be learning Irish' idea. They centre on 'Why (a language) should be obligatory', and most other languages in schools have some tangible benefit to them. If that group wants to explain why Irish specifically should be kept as a mandatory language, they'd be better off sticking up a rationale.

Why should people care if it does irreparable damage to our native tongue if so few people can speak it? What's the benefit of the entire country being fully fluent in Irish?

mickydoomsux

deise go deo wrote: »

No it is not. :rolleyes:

A tiny percentage of people speak it and that's pretty much only out of being awkward "FOOK DA BRITS" dinosaurs.

It's a dead language, the vast majority if people in this country speak English, if Irish was made completely optional in schools it would be pretty much gone completely in 20-ish years.

Cheeky_gal

mike65 wrote: »

Fine Gael policy to end compusory Irish till Leaving Cert

I hated learning Irish with a passion but this would be an awful shame.

ballsymchugh

mickydoomsux wrote: »

A tiny percentage of people speak it and that's pretty much only out of being awkward "FOOK DA BRITS" dinosaurs.

It's a dead language, the vast majority if people in this country speak English, if Irish was made completely optional in schools it would be pretty much gone completely in 20-ish years.

i'm pretty sure most of the people south of the border that do speak it regularly couldn't give a toss about whatever brits are doing where.
there's a few irish speaking quarters in belfast and plans for one in derry that may have an alternative view on the brits though..

Carl Sagan

Needs a reform to be honest. So do a lot of the subjects.

kraggy

Deleted User wrote: »

The other big thing about the curriculum is that it doesn't allow full immersion.. If you want to explain the hundred different emotions the poetry inspires in you, ya have to use english.

There should never be a word of English in an Irish class. We should be taught conversational Irish from day 1..

There are more words/expressions in Gaeilge that cannot be said in English than vice versa.

Gaeilge is one of the most earthly languages in the world.

My biggest fear is that if it becomes optional, you could have many students who want to do it for the Leaving Cert but can't because the numbers just aren't quite sufficient for the school to run a class.

Concentration should be placed on the oral aspect. Attribute 75% of the marks towards a series of oral exams instead of 25% or whatever it is for a half hour oral exam. That would get the students talking it amongst themselves instead of learning about Peig Seyers and poetry stuff that kids simply can't relate to.

An oral could consist of types of questions such as:

Explain to me how to get to the local supermarket from the school.
Describe your locality. What do you dislike about your area? (Teenagers are grumpy and like complaining, they'll enjoy this)
Who do you think will win X factor? Who do you think will win X factor?

Keep it relevant to the students' lives and it will succeed. And for goodness sake, entice them into learning how to speak the language. Give them reward, i.e. the bulk of the marks should be for speaking it!

It's a cool language. And to whoever said it's dead, maybe it is in your world, but the fact of the matter is,

My girlfriend speaks it every day at work
a friend of mine speaks it every day at work
I speak both English and Gaeilge with both of them and others.

Please don't make such ridiculous remarks just because you don't speak it and nobody you know speaks it. The world encompasses more people and greater things than your narrow mind.

Renn

Does mike65 even have an opinion on this?

Captain Darling

IvySlayer wrote: »

Restructure the entire thing.

Learning Irish poetry and stories was ****ing ridiculous and it has not once benfited me in life. Start teaching in like the way French/German is. Considering Irish has to be learned through all of our school life and Irish is still dying as a language, is that not a sign the current cirrculum is not suitable?

The way its taught doesnt work. My german was better then my irish when i finished school....

KerranJast

It's a pretty crazy situation where 6th Class kids conversational Irish is better than Leaving Cert honours students.
I got a B2 in Honours Irish but if someone wanted to have a chat to me as Gaeilge I'd have floundered whereas my 12 year old self would have had no bother. I was well able to write a generic essay about suicide or drugs though :rolleyes:

david75

A perfect example of why we should fight to keep it as much as we can, 'cos without it we're lost

Loss of Irish damaged confidence, book claims

LORNA SIGGINS, Western Correspondent

A CONTROVERSIAL claim has been made in a new study that Irish parents who believed their children only had a future with the English language may have been contributing to a loss of economic creativity and self-confidence.
The analysis by Dr John Walsh, lecturer in NUI Galway’s school of language, literature and culture, contends that the shift from Irish to English use in the 19th century had a detrimental effect on both Ireland’s economy and its society.
His new work has been described by Prof Peadar Kirby, who is professor of international politics at University of Limerick (UL), as “one of the most important books written on the Irish language for a very long time”.
“For the first time, it examines the claim made by authors as far back as Thomas Davis in the 1840s and up to historian Joe Lee’s magisterial book of 1989 that the decline of Irish as the vernacular language has had a detrimental effect on Ireland’s socio-economic development,” he said.
Prof Kirby was speaking at the book’s publication in Galway City Museum.
“The experience of language shift in the 19th century was a remarkably painful experience,” he said.
“This is a point which has not been acknowledged, but which affected us deeply. Contrast our sense of confidence and creativity with Scandinavian countries which held on to their languages,” he said.
“Walsh’s book adopts a rigorous social scientific approach to interrogating this claim, contributing important insights not only to debates about Ireland’s future development but also to international debates about culture and development,” the professor told those attending the launch.
“Coming at a time of major national reappraisal of where we are going as a society, this book has a huge contribution to make to charting the road towards a better future.”
Dr Walsh was appointed as a Fulbright Irish Language Scholar in 2009, and he subsequently spent six months engaged in researching the subject matter of the book at the University of California, Santa Cruz, in the United States.
He examined previous writing on the issue, dating back to Thomas Davis and Douglas Hyde, and chose three Gaeltacht areas as case studies.
He also investigated areas outside the traditional Gaeltacht, such as Galway city and west Belfast. Dr Walsh additionally examined the new development policy of Údarás na Gaeltachta, and looked at the changing focus of the organisation, particularly in the light of renewed concern about the strength of Irish in the Gaeltacht.
“I conclude that we need a new theoretical model, combining elements of sociolinguistics and socio-cultural development, in order to better understand the link between language and development,” Dr Walsh said.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2011/0201/1224288693721.html

Snakeblood

kraggy wrote: »

Please don't make such ridiculous remarks just because you don't speak it and nobody you know speaks it. The world encompasses more people and greater things than your narrow mind.

Could say the same thing for you. You want to waste time (granted, you don't see it that way, but a lot of people do) on a language that a tiny percentage of a tiny population speak. Pretty narrowminded.

KerranJast

david75 wrote: »

A perfect example of why we should fight to keep it as much as we can, 'cos without it we're lost

Loss of Irish damaged confidence, book claims

LORNA SIGGINS, Western Correspondent

A CONTROVERSIAL claim has been made in a new study that Irish parents who believed their children only had a future with the English language may have been contributing to a loss of economic creativity and self-confidence.
The analysis by Dr John Walsh, lecturer in NUI Galway’s school of language, literature and culture, contends that the shift from Irish to English use in the 19th century had a detrimental effect on both Ireland’s economy and its society.
His new work has been described by Prof Peadar Kirby, who is professor of international politics at University of Limerick (UL), as “one of the most important books written on the Irish language for a very long time”.
“For the first time, it examines the claim made by authors as far back as Thomas Davis in the 1840s and up to historian Joe Lee’s magisterial book of 1989 that the decline of Irish as the vernacular language has had a detrimental effect on Ireland’s socio-economic development,” he said.
Prof Kirby was speaking at the book’s publication in Galway City Museum.
“The experience of language shift in the 19th century was a remarkably painful experience,” he said.
“This is a point which has not been acknowledged, but which affected us deeply. Contrast our sense of confidence and creativity with Scandinavian countries which held on to their languages,” he said.
“Walsh’s book adopts a rigorous social scientific approach to interrogating this claim, contributing important insights not only to debates about Ireland’s future development but also to international debates about culture and development,” the professor told those attending the launch.
“Coming at a time of major national reappraisal of where we are going as a society, this book has a huge contribution to make to charting the road towards a better future.”
Dr Walsh was appointed as a Fulbright Irish Language Scholar in 2009, and he subsequently spent six months engaged in researching the subject matter of the book at the University of California, Santa Cruz, in the United States.
He examined previous writing on the issue, dating back to Thomas Davis and Douglas Hyde, and chose three Gaeltacht areas as case studies.
He also investigated areas outside the traditional Gaeltacht, such as Galway city and west Belfast. Dr Walsh additionally examined the new development policy of Údarás na Gaeltachta, and looked at the changing focus of the organisation, particularly in the light of renewed concern about the strength of Irish in the Gaeltacht.
“I conclude that we need a new theoretical model, combining elements of sociolinguistics and socio-cultural development, in order to better understand the link between language and development,” Dr Walsh said.

Ireland in the 19th Century was a 3rd World country in a lot of respects and a huge majority of the population were illiterate to boot.
As a nation we are much better off economically having English as our primary language.

kraggy

Renn wrote: »

Does mike65 even have an opinion on this?

mike65 has a history of having disdain for the language even though he is English and it shouldn't bother him, but for some reason it does.

He has called it useless, silly and other derogatory terms in the past.

Major chip on his shoulder.

syklops

Cheeky_gal wrote: »

I hated learning Irish with a passion but this would be an awful shame.

He is just end the compulsory teaching of irish. He is not banning it. It would still be an option. How would that be shameful?

As has been said, it needs a complete overhaul in the way it is taught. After about 6 months of not trying very hard, I now speak more Czech than I do Irish, after 14 years of education. That is honestly embarrassing for me and for the Department of Education. I also speak more French than I do Irish and that was only after 6 years of schooling.

Surely the people who are campaigning to have the language remain compulsory can see that something is wrong with the current situation. To suggest that the current situation is fine is ridiculous. The subject being compulsory has not dramatically improved the uptake of the language. If anything it has damaged it further. Making it optional might improve things.

david75

KerranJast wrote: »

Ireland in the 19th Century was a 3rd World country in a lot of respects and a huge majority of the population were illiterate to boot.
As a nation we are much better off economically having English as our primary language.

Lotta people all this country still living in 3rd world conditions, but even if they aren't, should we let our heritage and culture die and become watered down west brits/europeans(take your pick) just because people like you are feckless about it? Reform how it's taught(and every other language as well as maths,) go for it..but leave it out to die? which it surely will if the option is presented? definitely not.

Notorious97

syklops wrote: »

He is just end the compulsory teaching of irish. He is not banning it. It would still be an option. How would that be shameful?

As has been said, it needs a complete overhaul in the way it is taught. After about 6 months of not trying very hard, I now speak more Czech than I do Irish, after 14 years of education. That is honestly embarrassing for me and for the Department of Education. I also speak more French than I do Irish and that was only after 6 years of schooling.

Surely the people who are campaigning to have the language remain compulsory can see that something is wrong with the current situation. To suggest that the current situation is fine is ridiculous. The subject being compulsory has not dramatically improved the uptake of the language. If anything it has damaged it further. Making it optional might improve things.

I don’t think any of us who want it to remain compulsory are happy with how it is taught.

I don’t want it optional, but the system needs an overhaul on it definitely! I think the idea it should be split into two modules, language and literature is a good idea.

kraggy

Snakeblood wrote: »

Could say the same thing for you. You want to waste time (granted, you don't see it that way, but a lot of people do) on a language that a tiny percentage of a tiny population speak. Pretty narrowminded.

So my speaking 2 languages daily, instead of 1 = narrow mind ???

And it's a waste of time speaking Gaeilge how? It's one my languages. Would you say to a South African that their speaking Afrikaans is a waste of time?

kraggy

syklops wrote: »

He is just end the compulsory teaching of irish. He is not banning it. It would still be an option. How would that be shameful?

As has been said, it needs a complete overhaul in the way it is taught. After about 6 months of not trying very hard, I now speak more Czech than I do Irish, after 14 years of education. That is honestly embarrassing for me and for the Department of Education. I also speak more French than I do Irish and that was only after 6 years of schooling.

Surely the people who are campaigning to have the language remain compulsory can see that something is wrong with the current situation. To suggest that the current situation is fine is ridiculous. The subject being compulsory has not dramatically improved the uptake of the language. If anything it has damaged it further. Making it optional might improve things.

Because there could be cases where students who want to study it for leaving cert wouldn't be able to because the numbers wouldn't be sufficient in their school.

Snakeblood

kraggy wrote: »

Because there could be cases where students who want to study it for leaving cert wouldn't be able to because the numbers wouldn't be sufficient in their school.

But there definitely will be many many more cases of students who don't want to study it but are forced to instead of learning something else? Is it really worth the cost?

david75

We're too immersed in British culture and far too subject to it as a people for young people to take up the option of doing Irish if it became one.

There'd be a bigger outcry if you banned British soccer matches off our screens and as a statement about us as a people, how depressing is that?

Yet the same morons will go on in the pub about 'hating English people' yet they won't defend their language or their heritage.

The only time they feel pride is when they have their tricolour boxers on when they're over in Alicante. Safe to say i'm proably addressing a few of the feckless in this thread.