Fine Gael policy to end compusory Irish till Leaving Cert

Krusader

ricero wrote: »

It should be made optional for the leaving certain no doubht about it I ave no problem with the language being around ya ave to keep the hardline nationalists happy but it should be optional it will save the state money and give many people who struggle with the language throughtout their life pick up a new subject and a other intrest. Also it defintly needs a reform the way it's taught is discracefull all we did in class was argue with the teacher about how Irish sucks and watched DVDs we didn't even get homework. Also there's poems on the leaving certain poem written by a pedo that's just wrong IMO

Your ignorance knows no bounds

lily09

Ok have only skimmed throught the thread so apologies if this point has been made.
Have seen a lot of criticism of the way Irish is taught in schools and this is seen as the main problem.
However this is not my experience in primary, I teach my infants using every trick in the book. They have interactive resources on the IWB, games, puppets, drama,songs, stories etc and guess what there is still a groan every morning when the lesson begins.
The children do not hear Irish language pop music, they dont watch good Irish cartoons and they dont see Irish being used in the environment by people they have in their immediate circle.
To address the op, Irish should not be compulsary for the Leaving Cert. No subject should.

ricero

Crosáidí wrote: »

Your ignorance knows no bounds

Im a dub do you expect any better ?

Krusader

ricero wrote: »

Im a dub do you expect any better ?

Yeah i do, i'm a dub also

Babyblessed

Havent read the thread thru from the beginning so hope Im not repeating other posters.

I think Irish should be compulsory to AT LEAST Junior cert...... I'd personally be extremely disappointed if my kids gave up before leaving cert.

My youngest 2 have learnt Irish from Juniors, it was taught in the same way you teach a child words.... look at an orange, say orange (albeit in Irish!)

My eldest of these 2 is one of the best in his class at Irish (and he has no support at home as my OH and I were unfortunately educated in the UK), its early days for the youngest but I have picked up a few words (not just the expletives) over the last few years.

I'd be sad to see it gradually disappear as a language, its my heritage. I have done a few short courses but these werent taught as conversational and unfortunately when I say my few words in Irish people normally collapse in fits of laughter...... sounds a bit weird with my split accent I suppose!

Love it or hate it, its part of a culture people fought and died for to protect!

orourkeda

deise go deo wrote: »

Well I would say it should be compulsory.

And no, I dont see how your logic follows, There are no end of oppertunities to use English, dose that mean we dont need to teach it?

I'm not saying English shouldn't be taught. I'm saying that allowing LC students a choice in the matter appears reasonable

Chaotic_Forces

Babyblessed wrote: »

Havent read the thread thru from the beginning so hope Im not repeating other posters.

I think Irish should be compulsory to AT LEAST Junior cert...... I'd personally be extremely disappointed if my kids gave up before leaving cert.

My youngest 2 have learnt Irish from Juniors, it was taught in the same way you teach a child words.... look at an orange, say orange (albeit in Irish!)

My eldest of these 2 is one of the best in his class at Irish (and he has no support at home as my OH and I were unfortunately educated in the UK), its early days for the youngest but I have picked up a few words (not just the expletives) over the last few years.

I'd be sad to see it gradually disappear as a language, its my heritage. I have done a few short courses but these werent taught as conversational and unfortunately when I say my few words in Irish people normally collapse in fits of laughter...... sounds a bit weird with my split accent I suppose!

Love it or hate it, its part of a culture people fought and died for to protect!

It's not even about the fact about our ancestors (I just got that you were both educated in the UK so you don't have first hand learning of Irish (language)).
The point is Irish is our first national language, follow by English. Which is obvious why English is our second language (both good and bad sides of it). And as for your children, might I urge you as hard as I can to put them in a good Irish school, at the very least for primary. It honestly will do them the world of good and will help them have an amzingly good advantage even in an English taught school (as in they speak English for all subjects). In secondary it basically becomes "poems, stories, "old" irish and so on). But most Irish schools used the next class books (so at first class they would the book that's for the next class in the english schools). When I started in second class (age 7-8) I was geuniely scared I'd be at a lost since I was horrible at Irish but... I did catch up very quickly.

But if it's mandatory to the junior without it becoming a course about poems and so on (the short stories are fine, that are nowhere near as difficult as the English ones) then it's a great freakin' start.

Smartly Dressed

I fully support Fine Gael's policy of making Irish optional for the leaving cert. However, there are a few conditions that would have to be met first.

If the curriculum was even half-decent, 11 years (infants-6th class; 1st-3rd year) of learning Irish would leave us with some degree of fluency or, at the very least, a decent competence for the language. As it is, though, the curriculum is astoundingly poor - just look at the amount of people, who after 13 years or learning Irish, can't hold a small conversation or even construct a simple sentence.

The curriculum requires huge reforms, particularly in secondary school. Some people need to swallow their pride and admit that, nationally speaking, people's command of Irish is very low. That means we need to drop literature and teach Irish as foreign languages are taught. Place all the emphasis on developing spoken and written Irish to a good standard.

If Irish was taught properly up until 3rd year, people would have a much higher confidence in the language and I'd be willing to bet that a lot of people would go on to study the language for leaving cert, than if the curriculum remained as it is and Irish was made optional. I'm not, however, going to deny that the amount of people doing Irish for the leaving cert would drop, but if the the curriculum was reformed, the number of Irish speakers would greatly increase and that's what we want at the end of the day.

That's what I think anyway but it is a fairly simple analysis. The problem with Irish goes much deeper, with poor teachers and no one speaking Irish at home.

Chaotic_Forces

Smartly Dressed wrote: »

I fully support Fine Gael's policy of making Irish optional for the leaving cert. However, there are a few conditions that would have to be met first.

If the curriculum was even half-decent, 11 years (infants-6th class; 1st-3rd year) of learning Irish would leave us with some degree of fluency or, at the very least, a decent competence for the language. As it is, though, the curriculum is astoundingly poor - just look at the amount of people, who after 13 years or learning Irish, can't hold a small conversation or even construct a simple sentence.

The curriculum requires huge reforms, particularly in secondary school. Some people need to swallow their pride and admit that, nationally speaking, people's command of Irish is very low. That means we need to drop literature and teach Irish as foreign languages are taught. Place all the emphasis on developing spoken and written Irish to a good standard.

If Irish was taught properly up until 3rd year, people would have a much higher confidence in the language and I'd be willing to bet that a lot of people would go on to study the language for leaving cert, than if the curriculum remained as it is and Irish was made compulsory. I'm not, however, going to deny that the amount of people doing Irish for the leaving cert would drop, but if the the curriculum was reformed, the number of Irish speakers would greatly increase and that's what we want at the end of the day.

That's what I think anyway but it is a fairly simple analysis. The problem with Irish goes much deeper, with poor teachers and no one speaking Irish at home.

I do agree with one thing "the poor quality of teachers", that I agree with 100%. But the lack of Irish at home is a very, very poor and weak excuse. It's essentially saying "if our teachers suck, it's the parent's fault for not having Irish at home".

I had in all my time of being in an irish school (tbh, our teachers would constantly expect "higher quality" work from us since we were around Irish so often, which is fair". But it has nothing to do with Irish at home; I think that's a joke excuse designed to place blame on others and not on the teachers. As I said before, a good teacher makes the subject. If you have a lousy teacher that cares not for the subject then what hope do the students have?

oranje

Chaotic_Forces wrote: »

I had in all my time of being in an irish school (tbh, our teachers would constantly expect "higher quality" work from us since we were around Irish so often, which is fair". But it has nothing to do with Irish at home; I think that's a joke excuse designed to place blame on others and not on the teachers. As I said before, a good teacher makes the subject. If you have a lousy teacher that cares not for the subject then what hope do the students have?

I don't really agree with you on this. Parents can do very little about the quality of their children's teachers beyond moving them to another school. With subjects like mathematics this is a really big issue but with languages the parents can easily rectify the problem.
Parents can easily create an 'Irish' environment for their children from an early age by putting on cartoons in Irish, reading simple books in Irish, refering to objects by their Irish name, saying oíche mhaith, Dia dhuit, cailín maith/dána.
Unfortunately though Irish people tend to put massive focus on schooling along the lines of "I don't speak French because my teachers at school were terrible. No, you don't speak French because you never listened to French radio, watched films, read French magazines, looked at French web pages and, most importantly, spoke to any French person you came into contact with.
It is an advantage having a good teacher but parents can easily help with languages, many just choose not to. If the parents are not making any effort to support Irish the children are not going to have that extra motivation that might make them appreciate that they are being given a unique gift in the Irish language.
The sad thing is that it takes leaving Ireland for so many Irish people to realize that the language is so central, that it is one of the only justifications for partition. Last year I met some Welsh speakers watching a rugby international and they were saying how they were so jealous of the Irish in one way because they had got their own state. At the same time they were somewhat bemused by the anglicization of Ireland, they put it like this "you guys got your independence but we still have our culture".

IvySlayer

Another point I'd like to make is I wish I knew more Irish! The way it's taught in school really made me hate it. Nowadays, Americans especially, love when I give them Irish phrases.

I'd give anything to be fluent right now!

mloc

No subject should be compulsory at a Governmental level. It should be up to 3rd level institutions and the job market to decide what people need.

In many ways compulsory Irish was born out of a sort of elitism in the 1920s, where to secure a good civil service job fluent Irish was a requirement.

oranje

IvySlayer wrote: »

Another point I'd like to make is I wish I knew more Irish! The way it's taught in school really made me hate it. Nowadays, Americans especially, love when I give them Irish phrases.

I'd give anything to be fluent right now!

There are lots of resources out there for learning Irish on your own or in classes. If it's something you set your mind to it you would be surprised how quickly you could learn. In normal spoken English in Ireland there are lots of Irish words. That gives you a nice start.
Even in British English dialects there are many Gaelic loan words from Irish or Scots Gaelic like 'mucker' from 'mo chara', 'smashing' from 'is maith sin' and 'galore' from 'go leor'.
If you really want to be fluent and put the time in you will get there

oranje

mloc wrote: »

No subject should be compulsory at a Governmental level. It should be up to 3rd level institutions and the job market to decide what people need.

In many ways compulsory Irish was born out of a sort of elitism in the 1920s, where to secure a good civil service job fluent Irish was a requirement.

The Civil Service requirement wasn't an elitist measure as such. When Ireland became independent they wanted to increase the prestige of Irish as quickly as possible to revive the language.
One of the carrots dangled Irish learners was that it could lead held out the prospect of a teaching or Civil Service job. Where they messed up was that they did not make Irish the working language of these institutions, creating an environment where Irish was really useful.
This is the same thing that happened in every state. Whoever was in control made their language the one of administration or education. For hundreds of years Swedish was the prestige language of Finland. When Finland became independent (from Russia) they made sure that Finnish became the prestige language. For years Flemish people were forced to be educated in French speaking universities. There were no Dutch speaking universities in Flanders.

It wasn't an elitist measure, it was a cultural nationalist measure. Irish nationalists accepted partition so that there would at least be an 'Irish' state. The language was seen my many as central to that. They just didn't go far enough, let's face it, there isn't a single Irish speaking university in a state where Irish is the first language. You couldn't make it up.

Wibbs

oranje wrote: »

let's face it, there isn't a single Irish speaking university in a state where Irish is the first language. You couldn't make it up.

No you couldn't yet we're still spending millions per year and have done for the guts of a century perpetuating the myth of Irish being our first language.

Where they messed up was that they did not make Irish the working language of these institutions, creating an environment where Irish was really useful.

They tried. And failed. Why because the majority saw the language as too small to be important or just something you bullshítted your way through to get the job. If a significant number had wanted Irish it would quite simply have happened.

For years Flemish people were forced to be educated in French speaking universities. There were no Dutch speaking universities in Flanders.

You've just proven my point. What language is the majority language in Flanders today? Is it French? Eh no. Because the people want to speak Dutch. Compulsory imposition of language simply doesnt work. As our Irish example clearly proves. The majority want to speak Hiberno english. We're most fluent in it and you wuld have to look a very very long time to find an Irish person over 10 and below 60 that would be more fluent with a higher vocab in Irish than english. Indeed Irish is probably the best example of it I can think of in Europe. You're dead right. You couldnt make it up.

oranje

Wibbs wrote: »

No you couldn't yet we're still spending millions per year and have done for the guts of a century perpetuating the myth of Irish being our first language.

I don't think anybody in the cultural nationalist movement deluded themselves into thinking that Irish was the most spoken language, it lost that status in the early 19th century.
However, the aspiration was to make Irish the first language. You are right that they failed very miserably in that goal.

Wibbs wrote: »

They tried. And failed. Why because the majority saw the language as too small to be important or just something you bullshítted your way through to get the job. If a significant number had wanted Irish it would quite simply have happened.

Well actually that's not quite true. They never forced English out of the civil service, education and other domains. As brutal as that sounds that is the only way to replace the prevailing language. There are examples of this all over the place even today, Russian speakers in the Baltic countries cannot do jobs (like teaching) that they previously did without passing the language test in languages like Estonian and Latvian that they don't know.
Your idea that people would speak Irish because they 'wanted' to is not how languages grow. English displaced Irish because Irish parents abandoned their 'useless' language. Making Irish 'useful' would have reversed that trend but the Irish state never did this. That is partly because they made little or no effort to change the structures inherited from the British.
I just don't see why people want an independent state without doing anything tangibly different from the UK. Was our country split in two for that?

Wibbs wrote: »

You've just proven my point. What language is the majority language in Flanders today? Is it French? Eh no. Because the people want to speak Dutch. Compulsory imposition of language simply doesnt work. As our Irish example clearly proves. The majority want to speak Hiberno english. We're most fluent in it and you wuld have to look a very very long time to find an Irish person over 10 and below 60 that would be more fluent with a higher vocab in Irish than english. Indeed Irish is probably the best example of it I can think of in Europe. You're dead right. You couldnt make it up.

I think that you missed the point. All of the Flemish universities became Dutch speaking, indeed Leuven was split into two universities, the French part had to move. Until Flemish became the prestige language many Flemish people (especially upper class) brought their children up through French. That trend has totally reversed in Flanders.
Where it was too late was in Brussels which is in Flanders but has a 90% French speaking population (many with Flemish names). Brussels is more comparable to the situation in Ireland and indeed the Flemish language schools there often have big issues because of being in a sea of French.
Having said that many French speaking parents now send their children to Flemish language schools because Flanders is wealthier and Flemish has a prestige factor. That was unthinkable in the past when Francification was the trend and Flemish soldiers took orders in French.
I don't doubt that Hiberno-English is the language of Ireland. I just don't think that it is anything to be proud of, it is a failure on the part of the Irish state. Maybe I just got lucky but I enjoyed learning Irish, I read the language every day and listen to it every so often. I'd like to speak it more but I know no Irish speakers here.

Wibbs, I am still at a loss as to what you would like, what your position is? Are you posting just to evangelise that "Irish is a dead language, and should be allowed to die naturally" or are you actively looking to stop taxpayers money being put into what you consider a waste of time and effort?

If the decision was in your hands, what would you decree? The removal of anything official done in Irish language? The closure of Irish-language radio and tv (or the removal of public funding?)

And I ask that you don't refer to it as "Dago". I found that remark akin to calling an African "N****r". You mightn't like it,but to degenerate the language is to degenerate the speaker or nation that holds it, no matter how few.

Wibbs

oranje wrote: »

Well actually that's not quite true. They never forced English out of the civil service, education and other domains. As brutal as that sounds that is the only way to replace the prevailing language. There are examples of this all over the place even today, Russian speakers in the Baltic countries cannot do jobs (like teaching) that they previously did without passing the language test in languages like Estonian and Latvian that they don't know.

Yet the reverse was in play when the russians were running things and now the former soviet bloc countries have their languages back. The will really doesn't seem to be there with the Irish and never has. We basically didn't give a toss about the language while spending fortunes doing so.

Your idea that people would speak Irish because they 'wanted' to is not how languages grow. English displaced Irish because Irish parents abandoned their 'useless' language. Making Irish 'useful' would have reversed that trend but the Irish state never did this. That is partly because they made little or no effort to change the structures inherited from the British.

Oh I agree. The language became useless or near useless, but there's more to it. It did become somewhat more useful after the Irish state was born. It was mandatory to have it in many careers(more than it is today). Yes they could have insisted that people only speak Irish in say teh civil service, but the fact was(and is) unlike Estonian or Latvian where there was enough underground fluency there weren't and aren't enough suitably qualified Irish speaking people to have made it work in practical terms. It would have been a disaster. They may have been able to do it at the start, but now? IMHO The stable door is long open and I suspect unless there was a monumental seachange the horse has well gone.

I just don't see why people want an independent state without doing anything tangibly different from the UK. Was our country split in two for that?

Is Canada tangibly different to the US? Is the US tangibly different to the UK? Or Australia, or Jamaica? They all speak English(we'll leave Quebec out of it:D). Difference is more than a language. Way more.

Deleted User wrote:

Wibbs, I am still at a loss as to what you would like, what your position is? Are you posting just to evangelise that "Irish is a dead language, and should be allowed to die naturally" or are you actively looking to stop taxpayers money being put into what you consider a waste of time and effort?

The latter. Plus I can't let the Irish mafia BS of some go unquestioned.

If the decision was in your hands, what would you decree? The removal of anything official done in Irish language? The closure of Irish-language radio and tv (or the removal of public funding?)

Let's face it as it is fcuk all is done officially in Irish. Maybe some faltering pidgin Irish at the opening of the Dail, but that's your lot. Ditto for most so called official Irish. It's lip service. Embarrassing with it.

I'd remove funding from the translation services. I'd remove the requirement for Irish in the civil service or anywhere else it's currently required inc NUI's(AFAIK that's still in effect??). We need the best people, not just those who wasted their time struggling with pidgin Irish to pass an exam.

I'd remove it from the list of compulsory subjects for the leaving as per the thread topic. TBH I'd remove English and Maths too. Do it more like the UK and their A levels. Though I would insist that those going on to the leaving must have achieved a pass mark in the subjects.

Media funding? I'd leave that TBH. The Irish radio stations provide a service to often isolated people and areas. They cost sod all anyway. TG4? I dunno. I suspect it would survive without public funding. It gets good viewing figures. I'd take more money from RTE before TG4 that's for sure.

And I ask that you don't refer to it as "Dago". I found that remark akin to calling an African "N****r". You mightn't like it,but to degenerate the language is to degenerate the speaker or nation that holds it, no matter how few.

Eh delayed reaction there Ted. That was many posts ago. It references a Blackadder TV episode. it was a joke. Plus a reference that one of the rules of this site require that if you post something in a language not understandable to the majority of the users, you must provide a translation. Irish qualifies. In any case Dago refers to folks of a Latin persuasion not Irish, nor the Irish language. But I'll retract it if it makes you feel better.

Gunsfortoys

How has this thread gone on this long?

I don't see the problem with this, why force somebody to learn a language that will have near zero benefit in their future. Let them choose what language they want to learn.

starlit

Irish may not be hard to learn for some people but can be for others if they rely on memory and aren't fluent at the lanaguage despite whether they like the language or not or whether they are good at it or not. Like me, I was great when it came to the written side of Irish I could reproduce what I learnt to the best I could and do ok but when it came to aural and oral work I floundered. I found it very difficult to engage in a conversation in Irish. Basic Irish was all I could say. If asked to recite a poem I just lost all confidence standing up in the class saying a line or all of it. I forgot easily if only learning it the night before if it were a week before and learning it for a few days I had no problems remembering it. I often would have recited it for my parents and I was grand but not so grand when it came to saying it in class. If I missed one line or one word I was seen that I didn't know it. Had one teacher pick on me for that one reason. I was getting help with my Irish outside of school and she didn't seem to like that. She wanted me to do foundation and I was mortified, I wasn't weak at the subject just not fluent at spoken Irish. I had no problems reproducing a poem on paper but found it hard do do so when reciting it. It didn't flow naturally when speaking it did when writing it. The teacher just didn't understand it. I tried very hard in leaving cert. I ended up doing pass in the leaving and I passed fairly well better than the mocks as I failed the tape!

Often enough its not just how the student learn on their own and pick up the Irish it is how they are taught Irish will help them. If they aren't good Irish teachers or if their structure of teaching in the class isn't to standard no student will learn Irish. If they taught Irish in well structured way that applies to reall life things it might make Irish more fun and easier to understand. I'm all for foriegn lanugages to be emphastised over Irish. Students should be given a choice whether to do Irish or not in the leaving cert exam but not necessary excempt Irish from the curriculum as its part of our heritage.

newballsplease

mickydoomsux wrote: »

About time. We need to completely do away with Irish being taught in schools, it's a waste of time.

Replace it with a international language that actually has some kind of value.

I cant believe people thanked this post and agree that we shoul abolish our own national language.
sickens me

oranje

Wibbs wrote: »

The language became useless or near useless, but there's more to it. It did become somewhat more useful after the Irish state was born. It was mandatory to have it in many careers(more than it is today). Yes they could have insisted that people only speak Irish in say teh civil service, but the fact was(and is) unlike Estonian or Latvian where there was enough underground fluency there weren't and aren't enough suitably qualified Irish speaking people to have made it work in practical terms. It would have been a disaster. They may have been able to do it at the start, but now?

I agree with most of what you have written. Personally I would have the will to make an Irish speaking state work but it's futile if most people aren't committed.
Hebrew became the language of Israel within a generation going from almost no native speakers to a generation having it as L1. Irish is easily spoken by enough people to do the same (if there was the will). The first thing people would have to accept is that Standard Irish would be a lot more like the Irish spoken in Dublin (Radío Rí Rá Irish) and a lot less like any of the dialects. The expectation that everybody can speak like those in the Gaeltacht is fantasyland.
If all schools were all-Irish and Irish parents made a real effort to speak as much Irish at home as they could it would be possible. In fact the Shaws Road Gaeltacht in Belfast followed that exact model in microcosm.
As you correctly say though most people couldn't give a monkeys for that idea.

Wibbs wrote: »

Is Canada tangibly different to the US? Is the US tangibly different to the UK? Or Australia, or Jamaica? They all speak English(we'll leave Quebec out of it:D). Difference is more than a language. Way more.

Language is only one part of culture but it is an extremely important differentiator. Personally I think that Ireland, Dublin in particular, is very like England. I can think of no other country in Europe so culturally overwhelmed by a neighbour.

Iwasfrozen

oranje wrote: »

I agree with most of what you have written. Personally I would have the will to make an Irish speaking state work but it's futile if most people aren't committed.
Hebrew became the language of Israel within a generation going from almost no native speakers to a generation having it as L1. Irish is easily spoken by enough people to do the same (if there was the will). The first thing people would have to accept is that Standard Irish would be a lot more like the Irish spoken in Dublin (Radío Rí Rá Irish) and a lot less like any of the dialects. The expectation that everybody can speak like those in the Gaeltacht is fantasyland.
If all schools were all-Irish and Irish parents made a real effort to speak as much Irish at home as they could it would be possible. In fact the Shaws Road Gaeltacht in Belfast followed that exact model in microcosm.
As you correctly say though most people couldn't give a monkeys for that idea.


Language is only one part of culture but it is an extremely important differentiator. Personally I think that Ireland, Dublin in particular, is very like England. I can think of no other country in Europe so culturally overwhelmed by a neighbour.

The answer is rather simple, people want to make their lives as easy as possible. Most people are so tired after a hard day's work that they don't want to bother doing something as difficult as speaking a new language when they could just plop infront of Coronation Street.

Baltic States and Russia. 'nuff said.

Wibbs

oranje wrote: »

I agree with most of what you have written. Personally I would have the will to make an Irish speaking state work but it's futile if most people aren't committed.
Hebrew became the language of Israel within a generation going from almost no native speakers to a generation having it as L1. Irish is easily spoken by enough people to do the same (if there was the will). The first thing people would have to accept is that Standard Irish would be a lot more like the Irish spoken in Dublin (Radío Rí Rá Irish) and a lot less like any of the dialects. The expectation that everybody can speak like those in the Gaeltacht is fantasyland.
If all schools were all-Irish and Irish parents made a real effort to speak as much Irish at home as they could it would be possible. In fact the Shaws Road Gaeltacht in Belfast followed that exact model in microcosm.
As you correctly say though most people couldn't give a monkeys for that idea.

If that did happen it would be like Hebrew an "invented language" as such. Then again languages change so no big deal, but the will is simply not there, nor will it ever be I suspect. The time has passed and the critical mass required is a long way off.

Language is only one part of culture but it is an extremely important differentiator. Personally I think that Ireland, Dublin in particular, is very like England. I can think of no other country in Europe so culturally overwhelmed by a neighbour.

No it's really not. Not unless you're expecting it to be or you're argung from the rural perspective(which you could say of the UK too). The majority of Dubliners today are kids and grandkids of rural flight in the 40's 50's and 60's, so the old town of the "Jackeens" is a lot more diluted by the "culchies" than it was. Plus Dublin is pretty much the same as any major urban area in Ireland, just with a scale difference. In any event whether we like it or not these two islands have a shared history going back nearly 10,000 years with a lot of back and forth cultural exchange going on. Scotland gets it's very name from us. And its religion and language. So being similar is not a big shock.

NTMK

oranje wrote: »

Language is only one part of culture but it is an extremely important differentiator. Personally I think that Ireland, Dublin in particular, is very like England. I can think of no other country in Europe so culturally overwhelmed by a neighbour.

not many countries spent 300+ years under rule of a neighbour. most towns like dublin in ireland were built by the english. ill say it again the language is not important to the culture. the US, new zealand and Austrailia all speak english but maintain the have there own cultures

Krusader

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

The answer is rather simple, people want to make their lives as easy as possible. Most people are so tired after a hard day's work that they don't want to bother doing something as difficult as speaking a new language when they could just plop infront of Coronation Street.

They can plop themselves down and watch Ros na Rún instead

I would like irish to be taught properly, a few less "we went to the farm" stories in primary school. It needs to be taught by someone with a love of the language though, and I would apply that to any subject.

I worry about other languages though - when I was doing french it was far too basic imo, that's honours level. Maybe it's been revised since, I hope so.
I think another language should be compulsory from primary school really.
I'm doing 3 hours of german a week in the evening, and I'm amazed at how far we have come since september already. Of course, teaching interested adults is different, but if language teaching was a bit less pure-verb tables and a bit more modern and relevant, students could be fairly fluent by the time they leave school.

oranje

Wibbs wrote: »

If that did happen it would be like Hebrew an "invented language" as such. Then again languages change so no big deal, but the will is simply not there, nor will it ever be I suspect. The time has passed and the critical mass required is a long way off.

All languages are constructs to some extent or another. The dialect of a language that becomes the standard is normally a prestige dialect associated with a powerful centre of economic power. It becomes the dialect used in all of the important functions from administration through to education. Many people speak dialects of their language at home and then learn the accepted form (e.g. Hochdeutsch) at school.
Irish has never promoted a single dialect as the definitive language. For urban dialects to thrive people would have to accept non-Gaeltacht Irish as being just as valid. Right now all government policy is aimed at the ever-decreasing number of Gaeltacht speakers.
So it would be an 'invented' language to an extent but only as much as Hiberno-English still shows loads of features inherited from Irish speakers using English as a second language.

Krusader

bluewolf wrote: »

I would like irish to be taught properly, a few less "we went to the farm" stories in primary school. It needs to be taught by someone with a love of the language though, and I would apply that to any subject.

I worry about other languages though - when I was doing french it was far too basic imo, that's honours level. Maybe it's been revised since, I hope so.
I think another language should be compulsory from primary school really.
I'm doing 3 hours of german a week in the evening, and I'm amazed at how far we have come since september already. Of course, teaching interested adults is different, but if language teaching was a bit less pure-verb tables and a bit more modern and relevant, students could be fairly fluent by the time they leave school.

Primary school teaching is the real problem with Irish, you should leave primary school with competency in Irish, but you come out with soundbites like 'más é do thoil é, ciúnas, suigh síos, seas suas, an bhfuil cead agam....'

You don't even learn the modh coinníollach, so you can say things like
'would be'
'would come'
'would go' etc.

To many primary school teachers don't give a fúck bout Irish and are only in it for the lifestyle

mloc

Crosáidí wrote: »

To many primary school teachers don't give a fúck bout Irish and are only in it to teach children more relevant subjects

FYP

gorrillafrier

I got an email today from an Irish College I attended in my youth urging me not to vote for Fine Gael in the GE , seems like this measure would hit them fairly hard, In my opinon there should be more focus on these Gaeltacht regions as I learned more in 3 weeks there than 13 years in school.

Chaotic_Forces

NTMK wrote: »

not many countries spent 300+ years under rule of a neighbour. most towns like dublin in ireland were built by the english. ill say it again the language is not important to the culture. the US, new zealand and Austrailia all speak english but maintain the have there own cultures

Eh... Dublin was founded by Vikings, not English.

NTMK

Chaotic_Forces wrote: »

Eh... Dublin was founded by Vikings, not English.

true but how much viking architecture is there? old parts of dublin are almost identical to english towns. what i was getting at was that dublin is similar to english towns because it was ruled by the english for 300+ years which hasnt really happened in many other countrys in europe

Chaotic_Forces

NTMK wrote: »

true but how much viking architecture is there? old parts of dublin are almost identical to english towns. what i was getting at was that dublin is similar to english towns because it was ruled by the english for 300+ years which hasnt really happened in many other countrys in europe

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Empire

A lot of places.

NTMK

Chaotic_Forces wrote: »

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Empire

A lot of places.

How many of those places neigbour england had the same building materials weather and were under the rule of england for more than 3oo years

3 scotland wales ireland all 3 have alot of similairties with england because english settlers built towns in them

as the post i was replying to said

oranje wrote: »

Language is only one part of culture but it is an extremely important differentiator. Personally I think that Ireland, Dublin in particular, is very like England. I can think of no other country in Europe so culturally overwhelmed by a neighbour.

Wibbs

NTMK wrote: »

true but how much viking architecture is there? old parts of dublin are almost identical to english towns. what i was getting at was that dublin is similar to english towns because it was ruled by the english for 300+ years which hasnt really happened in many other countrys in europe

You could say the very same of any old urban area in Ireland. But let's take Dublin as an example as that's the sticking point for many with it's Jackeen tag. Before Georgian Dublin kicked off the place actually looked more Dutch, not English. http://www.dublincivictrust.ie/buildings.php Here's a streetscape in Limerick back then http://img690.imageshack.us/img690/8145/nicholasstreet.jpg County Cork? http://img412.imageshack.us/img412/8928/kinsalemarket.jpg Didn't make the inhabitants of those towns speak or be Dutch, did it?

Then look at so called Georgian architecture. That name is just the english speaking world's tag for palladian architecture, which is Italian in origin. Well it's ripping off the ancient Romans, who in turn ripped off the ancient Greeks. It's not really "Georgian" at all. I see your point NTMK, but architecture is a bad example*.

You talk of settlers? OK let's go further back. Scotland gets it's very name from the Irish settling and conquering the place. They have their own scots Gaelic, which is a dialect of Irish because we made the previous pictish language "useless". We went over, especially on the back of early Irish christianity and made Irish the language of commerce and faith and knowledge/learning/science and social position. So after a while the old languages died on the vine. Sound familiar? Which is a bit ironic when some among the ulster scots and the ulster Irish consider themselves so different to each other. That's a story for another day though....

Here English became that language of commerce and faith and knowledge/learning/science and social position. Though less so with faith. Catholicism is firmly attached to the Irish language. Though a fair few of the early scholars in the 19th century revival of the language were Protestant. No wonder Irish died on the vine. If english had been around in the 8th century it wouldnt have had a hope in the face of the Irish at the time.




*painting in broad strokes for brevity, in case architecture bods take offence.

Truley

Crosáidí wrote: »

To many primary school teachers don't give a fúck bout Irish and are only in it for the lifestyle

I would imagine the reason so many teachers don't give a f*ck is because they feel they are being forced to teach a language they don't even speak themselves and that they know their students will never speak. I know I would find it hard to teach a subject I felt had no tangible purpose in a child's education, kind of like an athiest teaching religion.

Krusader

Truley wrote: »

I would imagine the reason so many teachers don't give a f*ck is because they feel they are being forced to teach a language they don't even speak themselves and that they know their students will never speak. I know I would find it hard to teach a subject I felt had no tangible purpose in a child's education, kind of like an athiest teaching religion.

It's part of the curriculum, student teachers know that before they start in St.Pats or Mary I or whereever, if they don't want to teach the curriculum they shouldn't become teachers

If they aren't fluent or near fluent in Irish they shouldn't be allowed to graduate as teachers either

Chaotic_Forces

Crosáidí wrote: »

It's part of the curriculum, student teachers know that before they start in St.Pats or Mary I or whereever, if they don't want to teach the curriculum they shouldn't become teachers

If they aren't fluent or near fluent in Irish they shouldn't be allowed to graduate as teachers either

I think (at least as far as my memory serves) you just need a C1 in ordinary level Irish to be a primary teacher. Which, quite frankly, I don't think is too difficult to get.

Iwasfrozen

Chaotic_Forces wrote: »

I think (at least as far as my memory serves) you just need a C1 in ordinary level Irish to be a primary teacher. Which, quite frankly, I don't think is too difficult to get.

Isn't it a pass in higher? Though I'm not too sure either.

Truley

Crosáidí wrote: »

It's part of the curriculum, student teachers know that before they start in St.Pats or Mary I or whereever, if they don't want to teach the curriculum they shouldn't become teachers

If they aren't fluent or near fluent in Irish they shouldn't be allowed to graduate as teachers either

That's another good point, think of all the amazing potential teachers that will never work here because they don't have the Irish. While I'd bet there are pleanty of sub standard ones who have made it off the back of having it. It's a terrible and unfair benchmark for measuring a good teacher.

Ste_D

Chaotic_Forces wrote: »

I think (at least as far as my memory serves) you just need a C1 in ordinary level Irish to be a primary teacher. Which, quite frankly, I don't think is too difficult to get.

As I remember I managed a C1 (possibly C2) in ordinary level, simply by memorising tracts of text in answer to poetry and essay questions. Didnt know what any of it meant mind you!!

After 11 years being forced to learn Irish in school I couldnt even hold a basic conversation in the language. I think that the proposal to make it optional is a good idea, that way people will study the language because the want to, not because theyre forced to and the overall level should be a lot higher.

Iwasfrozen

Ste_D wrote: »

As I remember I managed a C1 (possibly C2) in ordinary level, simply by memorising tracts of text in answer to poetry and essay questions. Didnt know what any of it meant mind you!!

After 11 years being forced to learn Irish in school I couldnt even hold a basic conversation in the language. I think that the proposal to make it optional is a good idea, that way people will study the language because the want to, not because theyre forced to and the overall level should be a lot higher.

I was the same, I managed to get a C1 in ordinary level by basically learning off two A4 pages word by word spelling by spelling. A horrible way to pass an exam but it was worth it now I'm in ucd.

Krusader

Truley wrote: »

That's another good point, think of all the amazing potential teachers that will never work here because they don't have the Irish. While I'd bet there are pleanty of sub standard ones who have made it off the back of having it. It's a terrible and unfair benchmark for measuring a good teacher.

That argument could be said for any subject, we have a curriculum and a list of subjects on that curriculum, a teacher should be proficient in all of them subjects

Dr Bill

mickydoomsux wrote: »

About time. We need to completely do away with Irish being taught in schools, it's a waste of time.

Replace it with a international language that actually has some kind of value.

Written like a true patriotPerhaps German would be a good language for our children to grow up with seeing as how Germany and the IMF now own our country thanks to people with attitudes like yours,grow up for gods sake:mad: and try to be proud of the last bit of culture that politicans cant take off us to pay for their greed and stupidity.

Snakeblood

Dr Bill wrote: »

Written like a true patriotPerhaps German would be a good language for our children to grow up with seeing as how Germany and the IMF now own our country thanks to people with attitudes like yours,grow up for gods sake:mad: and try to be proud of the last bit of culture that politicans cant take off us to pay for their greed and stupidity.

Bertie Ahern and his crew of idiots in the REPUBLICAN party were responsible for the IMF coming in. You know, the lads who spout off a bit of Irish to win over dimwitted punters.

Iwasfrozen

Dr Bill wrote: »

Written like a true patriotPerhaps German would be a good language for our children to grow up with seeing as how Germany and the IMF now own our country thanks to people with attitudes like yours,grow up for gods sake:mad: and try to be proud of the last bit of culture that politicans cant take off us to pay for their greed and stupidity.

...
...
...
emm, so people who are against compulsory Irish post junior cert are responsible for the economic crash?
...
...
...
... nope still not seeing the connection.

mloc

Dr Bill wrote: »

Written like a true patriotPerhaps German would be a good language for our children to grow up with seeing as how Germany and the IMF now own our country thanks to people with attitudes like yours,grow up for gods sake:mad: and try to be proud of the last bit of culture that politicans cant take off us to pay for their greed and stupidity.

This is an excellent post.

It is a perfect example for anyone who wants a textbook example of a strawman argument, a logical non-sequitur and an ad-hominem attack.

I suggest Dr Bill join FF.

deise go deo

61% of respondents are in favour of compulsory Irish up to the Leaving Cert


Enda is already back pedaling from his position on Irish.

Fine Gael leader Enda Kenny said that his party is to conduct an 'audit' of the curriculum and the structure of the curriculum and that the proposed policy will not be implemented until after the completion of such an audit.

The party also propose to examine the points structure for Irish in the leaving and plan to look at introducing a new subject ' Gaeilge agus Cumarsáid', according to Mr Kenny.

Ste_D

deise go deo wrote: »

61% of respondents are in favour of compulsory Irish up to the Leaving Cert

The survey was carried out for Comhar na Muinteoirí Gaeilge. How impartial do you think they were?