Fine Gael policy to end compusory Irish till Leaving Cert

antiselfdual

So instead of getting upset at the idea of it not being compulsory for the Leaving Cert you should turn that around and view it as: Fine Gael policy to reduce number of years of compulsory Irish from 14 to 12. What's the big difference between 14 years of Irish and 12 years of Irish?

At the moment the last 2 years are awful anyway; and if it was even taught well 12 years should be more than enough time to make everyone fluent, at which point making it (or an Irish literature course) optional for the Leaving Cert would make sense anyway because students would then already know Irish and so be even better off learning something else for the last 2 years (such as another language, personally the only way I could see learning Irish properly being useful would be if it helped me pick up another (i.e. useful ) langauge easier... )

mloc

antiselfdual wrote: »

So instead of getting upset at the idea of it not being compulsory for the Leaving Cert you should turn that around and view it as: Fine Gael policy to reduce number of years of compulsory Irish from 14 to 12. What's the big difference between 14 years of Irish and 12 years of Irish?

That is a very good point. As it stands, I would hazard a guess that after 14 years of compulsory, daily teaching, most students would struggle to hold a real conversation in Irish. If that isn't a failure I don't know what is.

What 12 years, up to TY or 5th year is it?
Do they teach irish in junior&senior infants?

deise go deo

Wibbs wrote: »

TBH I think it's as much about a rural/urban split as anything else. Irish is seen as rural, twee, inward looking nationalism. English is seen as urban and basically more modern. That notion has been prevalent for a very very long time too(as oranje wrote as far back as the 17th century*). Irish died in the cobbled streets long before it died in the centre grassed country lanes. As more Irish people have become urbanised this continued. Now it seems its mostly the suburban who actively foster the language. Maybe cos they're usually only second or third generation urban caught between the two worlds looking for an identity in some way? Most have lost their accents and link to the past, beyond an affiliation to a GAA club. The language they abandoned in the past come back to haunt them?





* that reads wrong, oranje is not that old

Interesting then that attitude surveys identify the Young and Highest earners in out society as the most in favor of the language.

Third Level students are the most in Favor.

As for the Urban/Rural divide. There is a strong Irish language Youth Movement in Dublin.
This can be seen in the growing size of Cumann Gaelachs in Third level in Dublin and in the growth of the gaelscoil movement there

Dr Bill

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Well sir after respectively making sure my brain was engaged (it is)

'SIR':rolleyes:

Brain

Engaged

:rolleyes:

Krusader

antiselfdual wrote: »

So instead of getting upset at the idea of it not being compulsory for the Leaving Cert you should turn that around and view it as: Fine Gael policy to reduce number of years of compulsory Irish from 14 to 12. What's the big difference between 14 years of Irish and 12 years of Irish?

At the moment the last 2 years are awful anyway; and if it was even taught well 12 years should be more than enough time to make everyone fluent, at which point making it (or an Irish literature course) optional for the Leaving Cert would make sense anyway because students would then already know Irish and so be even better off learning something else for the last 2 years (such as another language, personally the only way I could see learning Irish properly being useful would be if it helped me pick up another (i.e. useful ) langauge easier... )

If Irish was completely overhauled from primary until JC and kids came out competent in the language and confident in speaking the language then most people wouldn't mind it being optional for LC because the curriculum would have done its job.
This however is not the case and it is a lazy approach from Fine Gall and that Gaimbín Brian Hayes in particular to try and fix the problem, once again Irish is being used as a political tool.
Fine Gall are out to systematically destroy our language, culture and heritage

Nah, FG are just clutching at a straw, putting a half arsed suggestion out there to see if they can pull in an extra vote or two from it.

Wibbs

Yes, like I said in my post that group would be mostly the suburbanites. Certainly in Dublin there are few enough Dubliners who have great grandparents who were Dubliners. There was a flight from the land to the urban centres in the early to mid part of the 20th century. Before that the use of language was very much split on urban/rural lines.

The Gaelgoirs love to trot out the "oh it's the educated that want it you know" Of course with the subtext that if one doesn't, one isn't. Up there with the "you're not really Irish if you don't speak it". Usual BS in other words.

In the end though "most in favour of the language" doesn't mean jack in practical terms unless there is a critical mass using it and there quite simply isn't at the moment and I can't see much change in that in the future either.

Wibbs

Crosáidí wrote: »

once again Irish is being used as a political tool.
Fine Gall are out to systematically destroy our language, culture and heritage

Oh would you listen to yourself and dial back the hyperbole. Whose culture and heritage are you talking about? I'd love to see your definition, but I suspect I could fill in many of the blanks already.

Irish has always been a political tool. The chuckies, the DeValeras and the remnants of the 19th century celtic revival have been kicking this football back and forth for 100 years. All the while the vast majority really don't give a fcuk or we'd be having this conversation in the Irish language and we're not. Even after all the state support of the language and it was and is high we're not. Hell I'd put good money that if a fully native speaker was to read many of the posts in the Irish forum here, he or she would be scratching their heads at the state of the fluency even among its more ardent supporters.

As for fine gael, next you'll be calling them blueshirts.

Pace2008

Wibbs wrote: »

Whose culture and heritage are you talking about? I'd love to see your definition, but I suspect I could fill in many of the blanks already.

This.

I was born in Ireland, I've lived in Ireland al my life, my passport has a harp on the front, and thus I think I'm justified in calling myself Irish.

Not once in the time since I've left shcool has the Irish language been a part of my day-to-day life* - my friends don't speak it, my family don't speak it, my work colleagues don't speak it, it's never been spoken in any personal business dealings in which I've engaged, and come to think of it, I've never actually heard a conversation in Irish in my considerable time spent around Dublin city centre.

Culture is the sum total of experiences and values held by the people of a nation. How can you tell me this is Ireland's "culture" when the experiences of a huge portion of the population reflect my own?

Keep trying to force your arbitrary notion of "Irishness" on the rest of us and watch your dead language become extinct.

*Redundant options on ATMs and tedious, circular debates on Boards notwithstanding.

antiselfdual

bluewolf wrote: »

What 12 years, up to TY or 5th year is it?
Do they teach irish in junior&senior infants?

I think I remember doing Irish in Junior and Senior Infants, yes, possibly just at the level of learning words like "ciunas" and "madra" I guess. I do have a distant memory of being worried about going into Senior Infants because I'd been told the Senior Infants teacher made you ask to go to the toilet in Irish, which seemed beyond my capabilities at that point... So 8 years of primary school + 6 years of secondary (I did TY) = 14. In any case it's a difference between 14 years and 12 years, or else say 11 and 9 years, the last two years aren't going to make a whole lot of difference for the majority of people's inability to speak it.

Crosáid&#237 wrote:

This however is not the case and it is a lazy approach from Fine Gall and that Gaimbín Brian Hayes in particular to try and fix the problem, once again Irish is being used as a political tool.
Fine Gall are out to systematically destroy our language, culture and heritage

I agree it's probably a lazy approach, it's similar to the solution "Students do badly in maths, therefore let's give bonus points in maths but do nothing else" in that it doesn't address any of the underlying problems. But I suppose I'd be inclined to the viewpoint that the underlying problem is just emphasising trying to teach Irish so much... which is where the real disagreement in this thread comes from really. Incidentally, from my point of view something I only encountered in a classroom is not part of my "culture". I don't think you can teach someone what their culture has to be, that's very artificial (though yes you can make them aware of their cultural heritage in school, which is different).

Iwasfrozen

Dr Bill wrote: »

'SIR':rolleyes:

Brain

Engaged

:rolleyes:

I can see you have no intention of ever giving me a real answer so I'm going to drop this. There's no point arguing with some people.

deise go deo

Wibbs wrote: »

In the end though "most in favour of the language" doesn't mean jack in practical terms unless there is a critical mass using it and there quite simply isn't at the moment and I can't see much change in that in the future either.

Have you not heard of the Gaelscoil Movement then?

(Figures from Gaelscoileanna Teo.)

1990:

Secondary school Students - 2,827

Primary School Pupils - 13,163



2009:

Secondary School Students - 8,158

Primary School Pupils - 31,304

New Schools

GAELSCOILEANNA TEO. are working with founding committees around the country to ensure that Irish-medium education will be available as a choice to parents and children in their area. These are community groups who have come together because there is a need and a demand for Irish-medium education in their local area. There are challenges to be faced when founding a school and the committees need support from their local communities.

If there is no founding committee active in your area and you’re interested in setting a committee up, you’re welcome to contact the Development Officer on 01 8535193 or cspainneach@gaelscoileanna.ie.

There are committees working in the following areas at present:

Primary Level

-Gaelscoil Ros Mhic Thriúin, New Ross, Co. Wexford
-Gaelscoil na Feoire, Kilkenny
-Gaelscoil Oiriall, Dunleer, Co. Louth
-Gaelscoil an Chuilinn, Tyrrellstown, Dublin 15
-Gaelscoil Chillín Chéir, Virginia, Co. Cavan
-Gaelscoil Oisín, Crumlin, Dublin 12

There is a local interest in founding primary schools in the following areas, although founding committees haven’t been established there as yet. The Development Officer is in contact with a representative in each area:

-Lusk, Co. Dublin
-Navan, Co. Meath
-Ongar, Dublin 15
-Clara, Co. Offaly
-Birr, Co. Offaly
-Marino/Fairview/Clontarf, Dublin 3

The founding committee for Gaelscoil Ráth Tó (Ratoath, Co. Meath) have made the decision to open the school without the official sanction of the Department of Education and Skills. The school is to open in Ratoath Community Centre on August 30th 2010. You can contact the school via email (gaelscoilrathto@gmail.com) or call them on 087 2860808.


Post-primary Level

-Gaelcholáiste Dheisceart Átha Cliath, Dundrum, Dublin
-Gaelcholáiste Shligigh, Co. Sligo
-Gaelcholáiste Charraig Uí Leighin, Carraigaline, Co. Cork
-Gaelcholáiste na hIarmhí, Mullingar, Co. Westmeath
-Gaelcholáiste Chora Droma Rúisc, Carrick-on-Shannon, Co. Leitrim
-Coláiste Ghlór na Mara, Balbriggan, Co. Dublin
-Gaelcholáiste Chill Dara Thuaidh, Maynooth, Co. Kildare
-Gaelcholáiste Droichead Átha, Drogheda, Co. Louth

There is local interest in founding a post-primary school in Blessington, Co. Wicklow. A founding committee hasn’t been established there as yet but the Development Officer is in contact with a representative in the area

Wibbs

Wibbs wrote: »

In the end though "most in favour of the language" doesn't mean jack in practical terms unless there is a critical mass using it and there quite simply isn't at the moment and I can't see much change in that in the future either.

But that's the thing. It shouldn't matter to those who don't speak it, but it does. My sister hasn't an inkling of it, but she's sending her son to a gaelscoil where he learns everything through the medium of Irish. When I pick him up I try to keep the Irish by speaking to na muinteori as gaeilge when I'm asking for him.

Are those of us who send our kids to gaelscolanna, yet don't have the language ourselves, not entitled to have a say in the value of the language because we are not fluent? How about recent returnees who learned it at home, but lost it abroad and won't relearn it again to time or age? How about those of us who serve, or have served, in the Defence Forces, recieving our marching orders in Irish as a sign of our nation's culture? Or those who hate with a passion what Gerry's boyos did to their families, but know and sing the old songs because they're good at it, and love them?

Whatever about the demographics of who likes/dislikes, Wibbs, you are in a minority. You are a non speaker of Irish who opposes support for the language. It's a vocal minority on boards.ie, but it's a minority nonetheless.

Iwasfrozen

Deleted User wrote: »

But that's the thing. It shouldn't matter to those who don't speak it, but it does. My sister hasn't an inkling of it, but she's sending her son to a gaelscoil where he learns everything through the medium of Irish. When I pick him up I try to keep the Irish by speaking to na muinteori as gaeilge when I'm asking for him.

Are those of us who send our kids to gaelscolanna, yet don't have the language ourselves, not entitled to have a say in the value of the language because we are not fluent? How about recent returnees who learned it at home, but lost it abroad and won't relearn it again to time or age? How about those of us who serve, or have served, in the Defence Forces, recieving our marching orders in Irish as a sign of our nation's culture? Or those who hate with a passion what Gerry's boyos did to their families, but know and sing the old songs because they're good at it, and love them?

Whatever about the demographics of who likes/dislikes, Wibbs, you are in a minority. You are a non speaker of Irish who opposes support for the language. It's a vocal minority on boards.ie, but it's a minority nonetheless.

I don't agree that we are in the minority and I have yet to see evidence from a credible source that pointsa in evidence of this. Whether you like it or not you know in your heart of hearts that if Irish were to become optional under a Fine Gael led government (and the next government will be led by Fine Gael) the majority of Irish students currently forced to learn it would drop it in favour of another subject they like or they believe will open up more doors to them.

That is why the Irish language body and it's supoporters are making so much noise about the propositions, they have a vested interest in Irish remaining compulsory, this argument has never been about the welfare of the students only about perserving the language because truth be told the Irish language body couldn't give a crap about students they just want to keep themselves in the manner of which they've become accustomed to under various Fianna Fail led governments and keeping Irish compulsory is the best way for them to do that.

oranje

deise go deo wrote: »

(Figures from Gaelscoileanna Teo.)
2009:Secondary School Students - 8,158
Primary School Pupils - 31,304

Although it is good that children go to gaelscoileanna (indeed it's a pity that the one in my home town wasn't around when I was a lad) the thing is that there is no overwhelming evidence that many of the graduates of these schools go on to bring up their children through Irish.
That's the crux of the language revival issue. The language needs new native speakers and the only way that will happen is if those children go on to bring up their children either through Irish alone or English/Irish bilingual with schooling in turn through Irish.
I know of fluent Irish speakers raising their kids through English. I also know Frisian and Polish speakers raising their kids through Dutch. That's how languages get lost (or coversely revived). It's not about translating documents or giving grants to business to set up in the Gaeltacht or indeed paying families to speak their own language (Irish) to their kids.
It's hard for me to credit why you would not pass on a language you speak at mother tongue level to your kids but that choice is made by very many Irish people. I can speak Dutch at near native level so I would be able to bring my kids up through Dutch but why would I when they pick it up at school. Instead I speak to them in English so that they have that language to native level too.

Dr Bill

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

I can see you have no intention of ever giving me a real answer so I'm going to drop this. There's no point arguing with some people.

Perhaps your looking for something that doesn't exist! Why do you want to argueIf you read a post and you have an opinion,fine,but please don't ask me to answer something that I didn't write and then expect me to argue your point with you.;)

Wibbs

deise go deo wrote: »

Have you not heard of the Gaelscoil Movement then?

(Figures from Gaelscoileanna Teo.)

1990:

Secondary school Students - 2,827

Primary School Pupils - 13,163



2009:

Secondary School Students - 8,158

Primary School Pupils - 31,304

Of course I have. Have you heard of the Irish schools movements in the 40's and 50's? And yet here we are. Answer me this and don't try to fob it off, how many LC students sat their exams through Irish in this country? Even though according to you and your ilk 10's nay 100's of 1000's speak the language? How many of those 8000 secondary school students did?

Deleted User wrote:

But that's the thing. It shouldn't matter to those who don't speak it, but it does.

Correction it does to some. More don't actively care than do.

My sister hasn't an inkling of it, but she's sending her son to a gaelscoil where he learns everything through the medium of Irish.

I'd put good money it's as much about the smaller classes and the current vogue for such schools than it is about the language for a fair chunk of the parent body.

Are those of us who send our kids to gaelscolanna, yet don't have the language ourselves, not entitled to have a say in the value of the language because we are not fluent?

I have no issue with that, so long as A) I'm not paying over the odds for it or those who couldn't be arsed aren't considered less Irish just because we don't speak the language.

How about those of us who serve, or have served, in the Defence Forces, recieving our marching orders in Irish as a sign of our nation's culture?

Yes but its things like that which are so bloody fake and again lip service. Like me as a kid asking the teacher to go for a leak in a collection of sounds in a language I had absolutely no connection to and fcuk all understanding off. I'm not from the blaskets or some rural backwater, neither were my peers, nor my ancestors going back a long way. The language was an imposition on us and many others after centuries of a gap. It's as much a late 19th century notion of Irishness as anything aproaching reality.

Or those who hate with a passion what Gerry's boyos did to their families, but know and sing the old songs because they're good at it, and love them?

Sorry you've lost me there SS.

Whatever about the demographics of who likes/dislikes, Wibbs, you are in a minority. You are a non speaker of Irish who opposes support for the language. It's a vocal minority on boards.ie, but it's a minority nonetheless.

I call bollocks on that TBH. The vocal minority in this island have always been the gaelgoirs. It's been like that a very long time. They know hang well the language needs all the artificial support it can get and has done since the foundation of the state or it would die on the vine or be reduced to the ancient enclaves. The very second anyone questions the sacred cow that is Irish, they're out in force claiming culture and dire warnings for its loss and being as exclusive to any other type of culture as they could. "You"re not really Irish you know" Sorry the politest I could be in the face of that kinda thinking is "Get bent". I'll not have some muppet or other make me or anyone else feel like a stranger in our own country. Funny I've never had that with actual native Irish speakers.

Dr Bill

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

That is why the Irish language body and it's supoporters are making so much noise about the propositions, they have a vested interest in Irish remaining compulsory, this argument has never been about the welfare of the students only about perserving the language because truth be told the Irish language body couldn't give a crap about students they just want to keep themselves in the manner of which they've become accustomed to under various Fianna Fail led governments and keeping Irish compulsory is the best way for them to do that.

Totally untrue and an absurd statement to make,what 'manner of which they've become accustomed to under Fianna Fail are you referring to? This 'argument' is about more than the welfare of students,its also about the jobs of teachers that will be lost as a result of this narrow minded,pathetic Fine Gael policy which is going to add hundreds of teachers, who incidentally do give a 'crap' about their students, to the dole and as a result hundreds more families will be destroyed.Then I'm sure the 'Irish language knocking brigade' will rejoice in their victory,what a short sighted bunch:mad:

Snakeblood

Dr Bill wrote: »

Totally untrue and an absurd statement to make,what 'manner of which they've become accustomed to under Fianna Fail are you referring to? This 'argument' is about more than the welfare of students,its also about the jobs of teachers that will be lost as a result of this narrow minded,pathetic Fine Gael policy which is going to add hundreds of teachers, who incidentally do give a 'crap' about their students, to the dole and as a result hundreds more families will be destroyed.Then I'm sure the 'Irish language knocking brigade' will rejoice in their victory,what a short sighted bunch:mad:

Oh, it's about jobs for the boys.

Iwasfrozen, I'd like reiterate, I do not oppose the removal of the compulsory status of Irish in leaving cert. My point is I believe that there are so many sections of Irish society that have been exposed to Irish in a positive way, that, while only a minority go hammer and tongs in support of it, many more are passively OK with support for the Irish language.

Now we must remember that without research to back up our assertions, both our positions are nothing more that opinions, not established fact.

Dr Bill

Snakeblood wrote: »

Oh, it's about jobs for the boys.

As I said, narrow minded,short sighted, pathetic.

oranje

Wibbs wrote: »

how many LC students sat their exams through Irish in this country?

In fairness there are some other issues at play there such as the provision of properly trained Irish speaking teachers and fully Irish teaching materials.
Even native speakers might be tempted to take the easier option of sitting their exams in the majority language under those circumstances,

Wibbs wrote: »

those who couldn't be arsed aren't considered less Irish just because we don't speak the language.

One thing I have noticed with a lot of Irish abroad is that they become very self-conscious about being called English or British because of the language they speak. In those circumstances you hear people wishing that they spoke Irish and even bleating on about Ireland having its own language (even though they can't actually speak it ;-) ).
Personally I think that native Irish speakers are lucky in the same way Welsh speakers are, they don't resport to defining themselves by what they are not, their language says enough.
What doesn't help is that Hiberno-English was ignored until relatively recently. Irish models of 'correct' English were based on British English norms. Things like pronouncing 'th' as t/d were classified as 'wrong'.
If Irish had not gained the status of first language there is a strong chance that Hiberno-English would have been standardized and codified in the same way as American or Australian English. As Irish occupied this ideological zone that did not happen.

Wibbs wrote: »

I'm not from the blaskets or some rural backwater, neither were my peers, nor my ancestors going back a long way. .

That's a good point that is not made so often. Many Irish people are from backgrounds where Irish was not spoken by the majority of their forefathers (who may have spoken Welsh, French, Olde English, Scots, Flemish or many other assorted languages).
Unfortunately the myth has been created that all of the Irish are descendents of Irish speakers who were forced to give up their language. The real story is far more complex but it doesn't suit everybody.

Iwasfrozen

Dr Bill wrote: »

Perhaps your looking for something that doesn't exist! Why do you want to argueIf you read a post and you have an opinion,fine,but please don't ask me to answer something that I didn't write and then expect me to argue your point with you.;)

You wrote this:

Dr Bill wrote: »

Written like a true patriot Perhaps German would be a good language for our children to grow up with seeing as how Germany and the IMF now own our country thanks to people with attitudes like yours,grow up for gods sake :mad: and try to be proud of the last bit of culture that politicans cant take off us to pay for their greed and stupidity.

You basically said that people who do not support the Irish language being taught in schools are responsible for the economic meltdown the IMF coming to town. If you want to back down from that position that's fine but don't try and pretend like you didn't say it in the first place.

P.S: I am in support of Irish being taught in school but from a strictly optional stance after junior cert.

Dr Bill wrote:

Totally untrue and an absurd statement to make,what 'manner of which they've become accustomed to under Fianna Fail are you referring to? This 'argument' is about more than the welfare of students,its also about the jobs of teachers that will be lost as a result of this narrow minded,pathetic Fine Gael policy which is going to add hundreds of teachers, who incidentally do give a 'crap' about their students, to the dole and as a result hundreds more families will be destroyed.Then I'm sure the 'Irish language knocking brigade' will rejoice in their victory,what a short sighted bunch :mad:

You mean the jobs of teachers who should never have been employed in the first place? The people who earn a living from compulsory Irish and viciously fight to oppose the opening up of choice to students? These people couldn't care less about making Ireland a bi-lingual nation they're only trying to keep their cushy jobs and rely on people with a passion like Deise to fight their battles on the street for them.

As well as this in a time of austerity the government could do well to severely cut back on Irish language bodies like Foras na Gaeilge and Comhar na Múinteoirí Gaeilge whose main role now a days it seems is to make up bogus polls on support of Irish to validate their own existence.

Here's a list of bodies all funded by Foras na Gaelige and so in turn funded with thanks by we the Irish taxpayers.

• Foras na Gaeilge,
• Altram,
• An tÁisaonad,
• An tOireachtas,
• Glór na nGael,
• Cumann na bhFiann,
• Comhaltas Uladh,
• Comhar na Múinteoirí Gaeilge,
• Comhdháil Náisiúnta na Gaeilge,
• Comhlachas Náisiúnta Drámaíochta,
• Comhluadar,
• Conradh na Gaeilge,
• Forbairt Naíonraí Teoranta,
• Forbairt Feirste,
• Gael Linn,
• Gaelscoileanna Teo,
• Iontaobhas Ultach,
• Pobal,
• Raidió Fáilte
• Raidió na Life.

Can you honestly say that each one of these is vital to the support of the Irish language?

Iwasfrozen

Deleted User wrote: »

Iwasfrozen, I'd like reiterate, I do not oppose the removal of the compulsory status of Irish in leaving cert. My point is I believe that there are so many sections of Irish society that have been exposed to Irish in a positive way, that, while only a minority go hammer and tongs in support of it, many more are passively OK with support for the Irish language.

Now we must remember that without research to back up our assertions, both our positions are nothing more that opinions, not established fact.

In that case accept my apologies.

Snakeblood

Dr Bill wrote: »

As I said, narrow minded,short sighted, pathetic.

You're the one who wants to remove personal choice. Hardly openminded. Quite shortsighted. Switching arguments to providing jobs? Hilariously pathetic.

Kev_ps3

Just another reason not to vote for the joke of a party FG

Poor Craythur

Kev_ps3 wrote: »

Just another reason not to vote for the joke of a party FG

It would actually me make MORE likely to vote for them, personally.

Ruire

Poor Craythur wrote: »

It would actually me make MORE likely to vote for them, personally.

+1

The news that FG have some awareness of the current situation has come as a shock to us all, the government-subsidised reservationists won't be so happy though.

Iwasfrozen

Poor Craythur wrote: »

It would actually me make MORE likely to vote for them, personally.

+2

I was going to vote for them anyway but this policy has convinced me to give them my no.2 instead of Labour.

Scuid Mhór

this thread has made me feel quite sad and i only read three pages.

Snakeblood

Scuid Mhór wrote: »

this thread has made me feel quite sad and i only read three pages.

it really picks up on page 7. The characters really come into their own.

Wibbs

Dr Bill wrote: »

Totally untrue and an absurd statement to make,what 'manner of which they've become accustomed to under Fianna Fail are you referring to? This 'argument' is about more than the welfare of students,its also about the jobs of teachers that will be lost as a result of this narrow minded,pathetic Fine Gael policy which is going to add hundreds of teachers, who incidentally do give a 'crap' about their students, to the dole and as a result hundreds more families will be destroyed.Then I'm sure the 'Irish language knocking brigade' will rejoice in their victory,what a short sighted bunch:mad:

Families will be destroyed. DESTROYED I tells ya!! by these west Brit blueshirts!!! More dire Shouty!! Shouty!! warnings from the chicken lickens of the Irish language mafia. When the appeal to some nebulous "culture" fails to stir the blood anyway.

They're still avoiding the unpalatable truths around "our"(though it's more "their") language. For all the support, the reality on the ground is different or we would not be having this convo. Irish schools are all very well, but as oranje has pointed out, unless the parents bring that out of the primary classroom it's not having much of an effect. The fact that it has so many crutches and has since the foundation of the state yet it's still in a dodgy state. Well not as a minority language. It's fine there, but to call it our national language is a bloody joke. An expensive one too.

oranje wrote: »

In fairness there are some other issues at play there such as the provision of properly trained Irish speaking teachers and fully Irish teaching materials.
Even native speakers might be tempted to take the easier option of sitting their exams in the majority language under those circumstances,

That's true to be fair.

One thing I have noticed with a lot of Irish abroad is that they become very self-conscious about being called English or British because of the language they speak. In those circumstances you hear people wishing that they spoke Irish and even bleating on about Ireland having its own language (even though they can't actually speak it ;-) ).

There is that, though I reckon some of that is down to the Irish self consciousness and doubt too. Canadians can get bolshie about being called yanks, but they dont seem as much so as Irish being called english. Naturally I suppose with the history etc.

What doesn't help is that Hiberno-English was ignored until relatively recently. Irish models of 'correct' English were based on British English norms. Things like pronouncing 'th' as t/d were classified as 'wrong'.
If Irish had not gained the status of first language there is a strong chance that Hiberno-English would have been standardized and codified in the same way as American or Australian English. As Irish occupied this ideological zone that did not happen.

True and it's a damn pity it didn't. Surprising too, given the body of literature containing it. Some of the greatest literature in the language itself. Even some of Becketts French work has an Hiberno-English flavour in it. Well we've a bloody long history doing that with language http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hiberno-Latin "Latin eh? Yea we reckon we can jazz it up a bit. OK we've only just learned it, but feck it why let that stop us".:D

That's a good point that is not made so often. Many Irish people are from backgrounds where Irish was not spoken by the majority of their forefathers (who may have spoken Welsh, French, Olde English, Scots, Flemish or many other assorted languages).
Unfortunately the myth has been created that all of the Irish are descendents of Irish speakers who were forced to give up their language. The real story is far more complex but it doesn't suit everybody.

Yep. There does seem to be a sense around that you can't really "mention the war" on this point. It's hard enough to figure which dialect of Irish to settle on, never mind think about the idea that many hadn't spoken it in centuries. OK I hail from Dublin and can trace on both sides back a couple of centuries. Before that my lot were mostly in urban areas(or as urban as ireland was anyway). Regardless it's at least 200 years since a member of "my Peeeple" was a native Irish speaker. How the fcuk is it my language? How does it represent me and the many many like me? It's an imposition pure and simple. IMH by the celtic revival, DeV style "Irishism" and the rural flight into the cities that followed.

Krusader

Ye do realise that Foras na Gaeilge is a cross border body and is also funded by British tax payers, so ye aren't paying all the costs, there's something for you to cheer about

Iwasfrozen

Crosáidí wrote: »

Ye do realise that Foras na Gaeilge is a cross border body and is also funded by British tax payers, so ye aren't paying all the costs, there's something for you to cheer about

Partly funded by Britain still means partly funded by us.

Anyway does Britain fund projects in the republic and vice versa?

Wibbs, you ignore the difference between "opinion" and "established fact". We all like to think what "we" think is the "truth", but it's only our own experience, which may be spot on, or miles wide of the mark. There's infinite amount of people, with infinite opinions, most of which believe "They are alllllll mad, I am the only sane one!"

OK, fine, "you" don't consider it to be "your" language. You're probably not the only person in the 5 million who has that view, but the only demographic I can think of that would share your outright hostility to the language, (as opposed to benign neutrality -a "meh" attitude-, mild support, or hammer & tongs) would be people who associate themselves ethnically with our nearest neighbour. (Now that demographic was artificially reduced in the aftermath of Independence as pretty much most of the people who felt that way actually did return to Britain or NI. Had they not gone, I reckon you'd have a lobby group representing a chunk of people that supports your position.) Indifference would be more prevalent in recent immigrants from other countries, but I'd be surprised if they shared your hostility.

And, what's a "chucky"?

You're beginning to remind me of the "No Western Rail Corridor" folks in Commuting & Transport.

The sum of their years and years of posting reams and reams of stuff in their support between each other had two results:

1.-To make Western Rail Corridor posters unwelcome.

2.- This Facebook group, with 105 members as I type.

This thread is about to hamsterwheel. But you're not getting the "I give up" last word. :pac:

Edit: Just wanted to add this without hauling this back to the front page.

http://yfrog.com/gyaketjj

Heh.

Mike 1972

Cathaoirleach wrote: »

This is why we need more Gaelscoils in Ireland. Learning two languages in school means you can pick up other languages very easily,

Nope Its a reason why we need more teaching of languages other than English or Irish in schools (particularly primary). And if they still want to learn Irish after that think about how much easier it will be for them.

Although strictly speaking this is slightly O/T since the subject of this thread is making Irish optional after Junior cert by which time Kids will have spent 11 years "learning" Irish and if by that time they arent fluent speakers the system has already failed pretty spectacularly and another 2/3 years is only throwing good money/time after bad.

storm2811

Dunno if it's been mentioned but I'd just like to say in between all this ridiculous internet fighting that they're changing the curriculum too.

Babyblessed

bluewolf wrote: »

What 12 years, up to TY or 5th year is it?
Do they teach irish in junior&senior infants?

Yep, my son is in seniors and has been doing Irish since he started school.... They cover Irish in TY too!

Wibbs

Deleted User wrote: »

OK, fine, "you" don't consider it to be "your" language. You're probably not the only person in the 5 million who has that view, but the only demographic I can think of that would share your outright hostility to the language, (as opposed to benign neutrality -a "meh" attitude-, mild support, or hammer & tongs) would be people who associate themselves ethnically with our nearest neighbour. (Now that demographic was artificially reduced in the aftermath of Independence as pretty much most of the people who felt that way actually did return to Britain or NI. Had they not gone, I reckon you'd have a lobby group representing a chunk of people that supports your position.) Indifference would be more prevalent in recent immigrants from other countries, but I'd be surprised if they shared your hostility.

Ah here we go, the "you're a west Brit" line/argument/intimation, but by the back door. AKA utter bollocks. Polite though, I'll grant you that. You've tried this angle with me elsewhere and it seems to weird you out that I'm not a unionist/west brit. That would slot me into a nice neat box I suppose. I can trace my lineage in this country going back centuries(I'd put good money for far longer than you can). Even my DNA is as entirely of this nation as you can get(both X and Y). I come from a long line of republicans, many who fought for this country and a few who died. Not just those who came out from behind their mothers skirts when they saw that the tide had turned. Yet I still think the imposition of this isolated rural language on the urban populations for the sake of some late victorian notion of celtic culture is a lot of bollocks and expensive bollocks at that. For what? So the odd politician can stutter and stammer his or her way through pidgin Irish at the start of a speech? The eh eh eh eh "Irish" speakers. :rolleyes: Answer these muppets better to call for funding to protect our archaeological heritage which is woefully underfunded.

BTW I have no hostility to the language. I do have hostility towards the vocal little bunch of the Gaelic mafia anytime their sacred cow is up for debate. The vast majority of people in this nation simply don't give a fcuk about the language. Well, beyond "oh I have a cupla focal". They dont want to see it go(neither do I BTW), but ask them to put their fluency and money where their mouth is and stand back. Most Gealgoirs are kidding themselves if they think it's any more than that.

Actually I reckon this ad would sum up pretty accurately how most of us feel about the language

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DTNBmFveq2U

And, what's a "chucky"?

Oh sorry. It's from tiocfaidh ar la(our day will come as bearla) usually associated with the Sinn Feiners and other more rabid republican types. IE derogatory term for above.

You're beginning to remind me of the "No Western Rail Corridor" folks in Commuting & Transport.

The sum of their years and years of posting reams and reams of stuff in their support between each other had two results:

1.-To make Western Rail Corridor posters unwelcome.

2.- This Facebook group, with 105 members as I type.

Oh I agree.. Out in the real world there'll be a ebb and flow in the speaking of the language, but I suspect the day it's the majority language of this nation is the day Satan skates to work in the morning.

This thread is about to hamsterwheel. But you're not getting the "I give up" last word. :pac:

Dunno about that......

storm2811 wrote:

Dunno if it's been mentioned but I'd just like to say in between all this ridiculous internet fighting that they're changing the curriculum too.

Improving it I hope.

Cú Giobach

Wibbs wrote: »

Yet I still think the imposition of this isolated rural language on the urban populations.........

What's a "rural language"?
And isolated from what?

Wibbs

Wibbs wrote: »

Ah here we go, the "you're a west Brit" line/argument/intimation, but by the back door.

Now hold on just a second. I do not consider you a "Jackeen" "West Brit" or anything else similar for that matter. Please do not put words in my mouth, (and I'd like an apology, as I give for that gut reaction I gave in the beginning). I simply stated that the only people I could think of that would actively oppose the Irish language were those ethnically British who were left as outsiders post-independence.

Wibbs wrote: »

I can trace my lineage in this country going back centuries(I'd put good money for far longer than you can). Even my DNA is as entirely of this nation as you can get(both X and Y). I come from a long line of republicans, many who fought for this country and a few who died. Not just those who came out from behind their mothers skirts when they saw that the tide had turned.

Fair enough, I wasn't questioning that. It wouldn't matter to me if you were a New York-esque melting pot of people going back centuries....

Wibbs wrote: »

I still think the imposition of this isolated rural language on the urban populations for the sake of some late victorian notion of celtic culture is a lot of bollocks and expensive bollocks at that.

There. That's your position. I believe it to be a minority one in the 5 odd million residents of the Republic of Ireland. But you're welcome to hold it.

Do you believe organising with like-minded anti-forced-learning folks into a lobby group would be helpful? Perhaps if you presented your arguments to neutrals you may heed some concessions in the name of fairness (The removal of Irish as a requirement in certain careers etc etc)

grrrrrrrrrr

Do you want to add a poll to this? 'Do you think Fine Gaels policy is the right one?' or something like that.

I think it should NOT be complusary!!

hatrickpatrick

Leaving cert Irish is an absolute joke. If it was taught the way French is taught in secondary school it wouldn't be a joke. But it isn't, so it is.

Paper 2 is worth about 20% yet the vast majority of the year is spent trying to cover it. And cover what? Outrageously boring, depressing and utterly unstimulating poetry and prose. And it's not that there isn't entertaining stuff out there written in Irish, it's just that whoever designed the syllabus designed it with the express intention of making you walk in to your class in a good mood and leave with an unbearable cloud of gloom around you.
An Bhean Og - some poor girl who has no life and is married to a controlling prick. This one stands out as the ultimate syllabus fail. There are war poems and an absolute wealth of poetry about loneliness and poverty, as well as the expected droning on about how hard times are under British rule.

I mean seriously, why don't you throw in the occasional comedy or something?

The Gambler (An Cearrbhach Mac Caba) was the only story which was entertaining. And thus it was the only one most of us ended up knowing extremely well.

After all that mentioned above, it's only worth 20% I reckon we spent about a quarter of the senior cycle actually studying the language rather than the literature surrounding it, which is crazy considering that if we never study the language we can't understand the feckin' literature in the first place!!!

Contrast it with French where the focus is mainly on grammar and useful, practical phrases which you can actually use to carry on a modern conversation with an actual French person, and you will see why (a) students don't give a crap about engaging with the Irish course, and (b) why even if they do study it and get good marks, they still come out with a horrendous grasp of the actual language.

Wibbs

Deleted User wrote: »

Now hold on just a second. I do not consider you a "Jackeen" "West Brit" or anything else similar for that matter. Please do not put words in my mouth, (and I'd like an apology, as I give for that gut reaction I gave in the beginning). I simply stated that the only people I could think of that would actively oppose the Irish language were those ethnically British who were left as outsiders post-independence.

IMHO you intimated it so no apology from me on this point anyway.

There. That's your position. I believe it to be a minority one in the 5 odd million residents of the Republic of Ireland. But you're welcome to hold it.

I may be more active in my position, but I still reckon people don't give that much of a toss. Oh sure if surveyed people you will get loads saying how great it is, but I do love the irony of people defending the language and claiming it's such an important part of their culture, yet who can't actually speak it, or have little more than a "cupla focal". The proof of the pudding is in the eating, or in this case speaking the language. Out of that 5 million best case scenario is 100,000 native/or fully fluent Irish speakers. That's best case. Some put that figure closer to 50,000. There. That looks more like your minority.

C&#250 wrote: »

What's a "rural language"?

What it says. Irish retracted into the hinterlands. So by the time of any revival taking place it was an almost exclusively rural folk based tongue. It was certainly not an urban one. It's been a while since it was the language of commerce, higher education, science, philosophy etc. That was much of the problem with the celtic revivalists, they were more enamoured of the twee folksy side of it all. As were those coming up with a curriculum. Hell I had go through the pain that was Peig. Some silly old bint in the Blaskets is gonna give us love for any language? It seems if hatrickpatrick is on the ball that eff all has changed. Still the same old whinging bog guff

Cú Giobach

Wibbs wrote: »

What it says. Irish retracted into the hinterlands. So by the time of any revival taking place it was an almost exclusively rural folk based tongue. It was certainly not an urban one. It's been a while since it was the language of commerce, higher education, science, philosophy etc. That was much of the problem with the celtic revivalists, they were more enamoured of the twee folksy side of it all. As were those coming up with a curriculum. Hell I had go through the pain that was Peig. Some silly old bint in the Blaskets is gonna give us love for any language? It seems if hatrickpatrick is on the ball that eff all has changed. Still the same old whinging bog guff

Do you speak Irish?
If so to what extent,
If not, how do you know what can and can't be expressed in the language.

Wibbs

Wibbs wrote: »

I may be more active in my position, but I still reckon people don't give that much of a toss.

Where is your evidence? No supposition, evidence to back your claims please. Or are we a nation of liars? Or hypocrites?

If we're a nation of liars/hypocrites, what are you going to do about it?

Wibbs

Cú Giobach wrote: »

Do you speak Irish?
If so to what extent,
If not, how do you know what can and can't be expressed in the language.

Shifting the goalposts there Ted. Of course many subjects can be expressed in many languages. Go back to the days of John Scottus and his ilk and Irish was probably one of the most erudite communication vectors in all of Europe(in the vernacular anyway). I'm simply pointing out that the subjects I mentioned weren't exactly in daily conversation for at least 200 years. The language was in the main spoken by the uneducated barely literate and rural. Now we can well argue it was "De Britz" keeping them that way, but that's where the language ended up. Look at TG4. There are some pretty fantastic programmes on it, but a lot is of the "Up for the match" rural aimed type stuff. Or talking heads interviews with Irish speakers in their dotage going on about the time they lost their earlobes to the great wind of 56, while in a convent.

How many scholarly books, articles or papers are written and read in Irish? That aren't about Irish themselves of course. How many patents etc? Poetry I'm sure there is, but we're back to the folksy(this is not denigrating poetry BTW. I'm a big fan). How many blueprints or architects drawings? Not too many there.

Deleted User wrote: »

Where is your evidence? No supposition, evidence to back your claims please. Or are we a nation of liars? Or hypocrites?

The evidence? 5 million(just under) Irish citizens and less than 100,000 native/fluent speakers. That's at best. Estimates of 75,000 using it in daily life to varying degrees of fluency outside education. Let's join the dots here. If we as a nation care, if we as a nation are so attached to this cultural yardstick by which we judge ourselves, then why don't more of us speak it? It really is as simple as that. Evidence enough for you?

Liars? Nah, way too emotive. Hypocrites? Closer I'd say though that's still way too strong a word. Most of all I'd say a little lazy and it actually doesn't matter as much as we claim it does. We only think about it if asked and are happy if we have a few words, but an active fluency beyond that? Nope. Look at the numbers. I would say there are enough in the Irish industry and it is one, blowing the importance and the danger way out of proportion.

If we're a nation of liars/hypocrites, what are you going to do about it?

I don't think, nor ever said we were. Seems like we're two for two for putting words in others mouths.

Wibbs,

You're not really a fan of answering questions directly, are you?

Anyway, I think a large section of this off-topic wider Irish-support-bashing should really go into this thread.

So it's Talk Irish or Kill Irish, no middle ground where we know bits of the language, and try to pass it on?

Wibbs, you have to accept that your hostile attitude to the language is in the minority in this country. The majority support the survival of the Irish language, and are willing to accept a level of public funding for it. You think that public apathy represents an oppertunity to remove what you see as a waste of time and resources. I tell you that oppertunity does not, and will not exist, because people are either benignly or activly supportive of the language.

And I'm not the one resorting to namecalling. Consistently you've been namecalling the language, namecalling the speakers, namecalling the points.

Anything you don't like you evade, and if you can't evade, you namecall and say "that's such&such bullsh*t".

You think "Ohhh he's out to get me I'm on to that Shinner/crusty/gealgoiri's tricks". Well Conspiracy Theories

---

> Thisaway!

I'd be annoyed with you, but this is After Hours, I will end up mocking you, and Godwin is out there somewhere

Cú Giobach

Wibbs wrote: »

Shifting the goalposts there Ted. Of course many subjects can be expressed in many languages. Go back to the days of John Scottus and his ilk and Irish was probably one of the most erudite communication vectors in all of Europe(in the vernacular anyway). I'm simply pointing out that the subjects I mentioned weren't exactly in daily conversation for at least 200 years. The language was in the main spoken by the uneducated barely literate and rural. Now we can well argue it was "De Britz" keeping them that way, but that's where the language ended up. Look at TG4. There are some pretty fantastic programmes on it, but a lot is of the "Up for the match" rural aimed type stuff. Or talking heads interviews with Irish speakers in their dotage going on about the time they lost their earlobes to the great wind of 56, while in a convent.

Wow! you are really good at using lots of (vitriolic) words and not answer a question.
Since you obviously don't speak the language what qualifies you to state what can and can't be expressed in it, a very important point if you are going to comment on what can be discussed in it.

Are you really so naive as to actually believe that a language that is predominately used by rural people is not suited to the discussion of philosophy, science, commerce etc?
Where the f*ck did you get this idea from?

Are you even remotely aware as you are listening to the old man you hear speaking English with the thick Galway accent on TG4 that when he switches to Irish he is speaking in the most erudite way and with a vocabulary that would shame the majority of the English speaking city youth of today.

To understand what can be expressed in a language other than ones own, you must either learn it or understand that language is the instinctual method that humans use to convey their thoughts and feelings and unless someone is mentally disabled we all have the ability to express the most complicated of concepts in our own native language.
English took an enormous amount of technical and scientific language from Latin and Greek and Irish does the same from English, Latin and Greek and many from Irish roots.
You sir are talking utter crap