Fine Gael policy to end compusory Irish till Leaving Cert

paddie9

Thread seems to have lost it's way.
I think compulsory is the issue, I'm happy for anyone who wants to learn Irish to go along and do it. But I do not want to be penalised for not doing it, which I don't.
I'm from Kildare my parents didn't speak Irish and many more generations before them didn't. So Irish is not my language.

ballsymchugh

paddie9 wrote: »

Thread seems to have lost it's way.
I think compulsory is the issue, I'm happy for anyone who wants to learn Irish to go along and do it. But I do not want to be penalised for not doing it, which I don't.
I'm from Kildare my parents didn't speak Irish and many more generations before them didn't. So Irish is not my language.

i agree with the not penalising someone for not doing it, but i would've loved to have gotten away without doing english. not once since the LC have i ever had to think about hamlet, or thomas kinsella's poetry, but i wouldn't have gotten into uni without having studied them.

if irish is dropped as a compulsory subject by the department of education, then i'd like to see the universities drop the maths and english requirements for their courses in which they won't be too necessary.

somehow i doubt that'll be happening, as was mentioned earlier in the thread, we're forced to learn a lot of stuff when we're young.

Morlar

Hate to say it but this will make me think twice about giving them a vote.

major bill

Morlar wrote: »

Hate to say it but this will make me think twice about giving them a vote.

why? all day on the radio i have heard people texting in saying they will think again about voting for them......we need to get our priorities right in this country much bigger issues out there than irish for the leaving cert.

btw not just picking on you for an answer!!!ha

Morlar

major bill wrote: »

......we need to get our priorities right in this country much bigger issues out there than irish for the leaving cert.

btw not just picking on you for an answer!!!ha

I don't think having priorities even at a time of economic meltdown has to be at the expense of the Irish language.

major bill

Morlar wrote: »

I don't think having priorities even at a time of economic meltdown has to be at the expense of the Irish language.

but its not taking it away fully just taking the pressure of students who may struggle at irish and may want to not do it for their most important exams of their lives cos i know i struggled and ended up doing foundation level.. i could have done without doing irish for the leaving cert as it drove me mad the thoughts of even opening the book.
IMO the whole teaching of irish needs to be changed in this country...students should want to learn it for the love of the language not be forced because its the irish thing to do.

adcrawley

It should not be compulsory.
I definitely think its a waste of valuable time for students, when they could be learning something that is beneficial to them.
Make it a voluntary subject and reform the way it is taught.
I think its important for kids to be able to focus on the subjects that matter.

deise go deo

The thread title is somewhat inaccurate it seams, That is if Michael Creed TD is to be believed.

Micheal Creed Website

Irish will not be removed as compulsory language for the leaving certificate for a generation or two.

This does of course beg the question, why the hell are FG talking about Making Irish optional now if their intention is to reform the curriculum and wait and see the results of that before making Irish optional in a generation or two.

galwayrush

41 pages in, bloody hell. Anyways, much ado about nothing, I hated doing Irish at school because it felt like it was forced on me and it did not seem important for me career wise. Irish not being compulsary for my leaving cert would have given me a choice to learn another subject that may have been of better use to me. Irish as an option is the way to go imo.
It's not being stopped, it's just proposed to make it non compulsary which will suit anyone who does not need it.

Helix

fulhamfanincork wrote: »

Irish leaving cert is based on the english leaving format which is ridiculous.

if it was taught properly, then after 13-14 years of school people should have no bother sitting it like an english exam

the problem is that the syllabus is a shambles, and is being taught by teachers who are unable to teach it properly

Krusader

What's crazy about the Irish leaving cert course aswell, is that native irish speakers have to do an oral/aural, yet native english speakers don't in the english exam, bit of a joke really. Just sort out the curriculum and teacher training, so if it fails at least we'll know we all gave it our best shot and if it succeeds, we can take some pride in the fact that we saved something special about us and our country from near extinction.

Cathaoirleach

I watched the TG4 debates today.

Éamon and Micheál were strongly against making Irish optional, and Enda kept dithering on the question put to him by Eimear. He would not answer the question "When will you abolish Irish from the curriculum?" He just would NOT answer it. FFS.

He said he wants to review the curriculum and teaching first, but would not admit to wanting to abolish Irish from schools. What does this man want? And why would he not admit to his own policy on TG4? Votes?

I get the feeling that Éamon was just looking for votes in the Gaeltacht by disagreeing with Enda. I seem to recall Éamon wanting to abolish Irish from schools entirely a few years ago. My, has he changed his tune.

Micheál can fúck off. It should have been Labour, Fine Gael and Sinn Féin in the debates, the most popular parties.

Cathaoirleach

ENC: Enda Kenny, what is Fine Gael's policy?

EK: This is Fine Gael's policy. Additional marks will be awarded to students doing higher level Irish.

ENC: But Enda, this policy has changed.

EK: I will do this before abolishing compulsory Irish.

ENC: When do you propose to abolish compulsory Irish?

EK: When a review of the curriculum
and teacher training review has been completed.

ENC: So you do plan to abolish compulsory Irish at LC level?

EK: I've been listening to reports in recent weeks.

ENC: Yes or no, Enda? Yes or no?

ENC: Answer the question, yes or no?

EK: Reports that I plan to completely abolish the Irish language.

EK:But I plan to strengthen it.

ENC: But that's what you said on RÚnaG.

MM: That is Fine Gael's policy.

KeithAFC

galwayrush wrote: »

41 pages in, bloody hell. Anyways, much ado about nothing, I hated doing Irish at school because it felt like it was forced on me and it did not seem important for me career wise. Irish not being compulsary for my leaving cert would have given me a choice to learn another subject that may have been of better use to me. Irish as an option is the way to go imo.
It's not being stopped, it's just proposed to make it non compulsary which will suit anyone who does not need it.

Its seems like its something republican nationalists are trying to force onto people. Its more of a political symbol to see people learning the Irish language than actual education.

Its not very important is it? I don't think it is anyway.

Cú Giobach

KeithAFC wrote: »

Its seems like its something republican nationalists are trying to force onto people. Its more of a political symbol to see people learning the Irish language than actual education.

Its not very important is it? I don't think it is anyway.

Do you have to view everything as "us v's them"?? :rolleyes:

You don't think the Irish language is important?
Why Kieth would you think something that is part of the culture of the island you live on not important when you put so much importance on your own culture and heritage?
Is it only your own that is actually important and everyone else's irrelevant?

deise go deo

KeithAFC wrote: »

Its seems like its something republican nationalists are trying to force onto people. Its more of a political symbol to see people learning the Irish language than actual education.

Its not very important is it? I don't think it is anyway.

Oh come on now Keith, You can do better than that, There is a clear benefit to learning Irish, as there is with any language, as for it not being important, maybe not to you, but then you are a unionist so thats hardly surprising, I don't think you are really entitled to pass judgement on the Importance of our national language in our country though.

I would say Ulster Scotts is utterly unimportant, however it is important to some in the unionist community in NI. I can accept that. Surely you can do the same for the Irish language.

l.m

there is a lot of ridiculous and unnecessary stuff on the leaving cert irish exam, it needs to be completely reformed, even better if it wasn't compulsory.

KeithAFC

Do you have to view everything as "us v's them"??

You don't think the Irish language is important?
Why Kieth would you think something that is part of the culture of the island you live on not important when you put so much importance on your own culture and heritage?
Is it only your own that is actually important and everyone else's irrelevant?

Going by some posters on here, they would agree with me. They don't get why you have to learn it as its not going to be much good for you when you leave school and they feel it is forced upon them.

I would say Ulster Scotts is utterly unimportant, however it is important to some in the unionist community in NI. I can accept that. Surely you can do the same for the Irish language

Your entitled to your opinion. I ain't too much into the whole language thing in all honesty. I struggle to see why the Irish language is important in an education point of view.

Snakeblood

KeithAFC wrote: »

Going by some posters on here, they would agree with me. They don't get why you have to learn it as its not going to be much good for you when you leave school and they feel it is forced upon them.


Your entitled to your opinion. I ain't too much into the whole language thing in all honesty. I struggle to see why the Irish language is important in an education point of view.

the rationale seems to be: It's Irish so you should learn it because you are Irish, not because it's as useful for communicating, which should be one of the primary functions of any language.

it's taking cultural importance over utility, and assigning a great cultural importance to something which doesn't seem to merit it on current use.

Wibbs

Deleted User wrote: »

So it's Talk Irish or Kill Irish, no middle ground where we know bits of the language, and try to pass it on?

Of course there's a middle ground. A cupla focal being passed onto the next generation as a cupla focal. Cool, but outside of the minority that do speak it(and fair enough) how in God's name is it the native language of this nation?

Wibbs, you have to accept that your hostile attitude to the language is in the minority in this country. The majority support the survival of the Irish language, and are willing to accept a level of public funding for it. You think that public apathy represents an oppertunity to remove what you see as a waste of time and resources. I tell you that oppertunity does not, and will not exist, because people are either benignly or activly supportive of the language.

This is the usual stuff trotted out and of course a majority support it not dying out(as do I), but support it as our national language? No. They clearly don't. It is the first and native language of a tiny proportion of this nations citizens. It is the fluent second language of tens of thousands. The rest? From a fair oul stab at it, through a halting grasp to a few words or phrases. This is in a country of nearly 5 million. These are facts. Try to walk around Ireland living your daily life as the chap(whose name escapes) from TG4 did in his very fine documentary on the subject. He was boned. He found very very very few who could understand him. How in gods name is that "our" language?

You know what the "majority support" amounts to IMHO? "Meh yea it's part of our heritage isn't it? Hated it in school. Do I want to learn it again? Oh yea, but you know I don't have the time an all. Yea slan bud". That pretty much sums the majority support up for me(though a tad too Dub a flavour to it:D).

Anything you don't like you evade, and if you can't evade, you namecall and say "that's such&such bullsh*t".

You can type it alright, but quote where I evaded, quote where I name called and quote where I called bullshít and didn't back it up with reasonable argument. I'm serious SS. If I did then fine I will address that.

Cú Giobach wrote: »

Are you really so naive as to actually believe that a language that is predominately used by rural people is not suited to the discussion of philosophy, science, commerce etc?

I never said suited. Big diff. When it was spoken by unread and uneducated small groups and that has been it's reservoir for many centuries? Then yes. Yes I do believe that the language has been restricted hugely. But like I said suited is the wrong word. It was clearly suited for all of the above many centuries before when it was at it's zenith as the language of civilisation. So obviously it wasn't like that before the usage contraction and it may go back to that level. Its certainly higher than 150 years ago but compared to the vast majority of the other officially recognised languages of the EU? No. So rather than suited I would say "Used" or "useful".

Again I ask; How many scholarly books, articles or papers are written and read in Irish? That aren't about Irish themselves of course. How many patents etc? Poetry I'm sure there is, but we're back to the folksy(this is not denigrating poetry BTW. I'm a big fan). How many blueprints or architects drawings? I'd add how much of that lot been written as Gaelige in the last 300 years? Poetry yes(though small enough) and like I already said, I'm a fan, but man does not live by sonnets alone.

Are you even remotely aware as you are listening to the old man you hear speaking English with the thick Galway accent on TG4 that when he switches to Irish he is speaking in the most erudite way and with a vocabulary that would shame the majority of the English speaking city youth of today.

You seem to have this notion that I take issue with both rural people and their accents. I do not. Quite the opposite, but that would ruin your angle of course. I would have no issue with someone having a larger vocab and level of erudition in his or her first language. Irish as I stated before retained the folk tradition of storytelling, so the poetry is there. Though I still sniff your notion that the "true" Irish accent and pronunciation is to be found in "thick Galway/rural accents" and anything else is harsh to the ears of the True Irishman speaker.

To understand what can be expressed in a language other than ones own, you must either learn it or understand that language is the instinctual method that humans use to convey their thoughts and feelings and unless someone is mentally disabled we all have the ability to express the most complicated of concepts in our own native language.

Yes and no. Sophistication in such expression varies hugely between languages. Languages like cultures may be valuable and worthy of preservation, but they're not equal in sophistication. Someone natively speaking Khoisan can certainly express him or herself, but the same mind natively speaking French has the ability to express more. They simply have more tools to do so. Now a talented Khoisan speaker may appear more erudite to a fellow San, but objectively he or she isn't or is within his/her culture.

English took an enormous amount of technical and scientific language from Latin and Greek and Irish does the same from English, Latin and Greek and many from Irish roots.

Eh where did I or anyone else say it didn't? Another goalpost shift from the master. Oh and the old putting words in others mouth while you're at it. Kudos

You sir are talking utter crap

How would you know? You put me on ignore. Anyway keep feeding that sacred cow of yours and one day I hope it might give you milk.

Cú Giobach

KeithAFC wrote: »

Going by some posters on here, they would agree with me. They don't get why you have to learn it as its not going to be much good for you when you leave school and they feel it is forced upon them.

Well the vast vast majority of people here want to keep it taught in school at least up to junior cert, and feel it is an important part of our country and who we are.
For you, someone who is always going on about how important culture and heritage is, to say that part of the culture and heritage of another people isn't important, is slightly hypocritical don't you think.

Wibbs

KeithAFC wrote: »

Going by some posters on here, they would agree with me. They don't get why you have to learn it as its not going to be much good for you when you leave school and they feel it is forced upon them.

That's only one reading of it K. I think it should be preserved and fostered as a language, as one of the languages and the oldest one of these islands. Indeed if you are Ulster Scots and have any highlander in ya, your people spoke it too. Mainly cos we invaded ye. Funny how these things come and go. It is hugely important as a part of the story of this nation. I only object when it and all that tends to come behind it is seen as the only bloody story of this nation. IE, "if you're not rural, catholic(with a small c, we use de pill fadda) have de Irish, follow GAAAA, listen to jigs and reels and hate de local soupers and the engerlish, then ye're not Irish and dere's de hairyplane to take ye outa here" bollocks. And that shíte if you pardon my French is quite a prevalent one, though thankfully a helluva lot lesser than it was.

I would equally object to the elevation of the notion that if you're not a prod, english speaking and swearing allegiance to a half german woman who despises you privately you're not an Ulsterman. This island and the two nations on it, have more than one or two or three or more traditions and little nations within it. The sooner we all acknowledge that and see what we share, not what we cling to that may divide, then the sooner we'll be all better off.

Snakeblood wrote: »

it's taking cultural importance over utility, and assigning a great cultural importance to something which doesn't seem to merit it on current use.

I would agree, for the folks outside the Irish speaking areas. It should IMHO be fully supported within them and if communities outside that want to start up their own then fine, BUT let's ease off on the rest of the costly crutches and lip service.

nickobrien1985

I lived in China and Korea,
the Chinese kids are in school from 8 til 5 every weekday, and on Saturdays, they also get less holidays
same with the Koreans, the Singaporeans, the Japanese, and your average middle class Indian kids.

We live in a competitive global economy.
Labour and capital are very internationally mobile.
Multinationals such as Microsoft, Intel having billion dollar R+D centres in Asia.
The Chinese will work harder, are more educated, and work at a third of Irish costs.

While Irish kids are learning a pointless language - Chuaigh, Teann, Rachfidh - whatever, and we're spending 25% of our time on learning a language, that realistically we don't have to use ever again after our Leaving Certs.

All that time learning Irish whilst the Asians spend it on Physics, Maths, Computer Science.

deise go deo

Wibbs wrote: »

I only object when it and all that tends to come behind it is seen as the only bloody story of this nation. IE, "if you're not rural, catholic(with a small c, we use de pill fadda) have de Irish, follow GAAAA, listen to jigs and reels and hate de local soupers and the engerlish, then ye're not Irish and dere's de hairyplane to take ye outa here" bollocks. And that shíte if you pardon my French is quite a prevalent one, though thankfully a helluva lot lesser than it was.

Wibbs, there are three, four people at a push in the country with that kind of cartoon notion of Irishness.

Just because someone has pride in their own culture does not mean that they should be put in some sort of despised Ultra-republican bigot pigeon hole.

And if you think your cartoon description of peoples views is a common one then that is most certainly what you are doing.

deise go deo

Wibbs wrote: »

BUT let's ease off on the rest of the costly crutches and lip service.

Wibbs, I have seen you use this term 'lipservice' several times, Now can you please tell me what difference there would be between the current situation which is apparently lipservice, and a situation where the thing was being taken seriously?

Krusader

KeithAFC wrote: »

Its seems like its something republican nationalists are trying to force onto people. Its more of a political symbol to see people learning the Irish language than actual education.

Its not very important is it? I don't think it is anyway.

There's nothing political about a language, ye have yours we have ours, they can co-exsist. It's more of a cultural symbol as is Ullans

Krusader

deise go deo wrote: »

Wibbs, I have seen you use this term 'lipservice' several times, Now can you please tell me what difference there would be between the current situation which is apparently lipservice, and a situation where the thing was being taken seriously?

You are best to stick Wibbs on ignore, he continually condescends and slangs irish speakers off all be it in an indirect manner, otherwise he'd be banned long ago

Krusader

nickobrien1985 wrote: »

I lived in China and Korea,
the Chinese kids are in school from 8 til 5 every weekday, and on Saturdays, they also get less holidays
same with the Koreans, the Singaporeans, the Japanese, and your average middle class Indian kids.

We live in a competitive global economy.
Labour and capital are very internationally mobile.
Multinationals such as Microsoft, Intel having billion dollar R+D centres in Asia.
The Chinese will work harder, are more educated, and work at a third of Irish costs.

While Irish kids are learning a pointless language - Chuaigh, Teann, Rachfidh - whatever, and we're spending 25% of our time on learning a language, that realistically we don't have to use ever again after our Leaving Certs.

All that time learning Irish whilst the Asians spend it on Physics, Maths, Computer Science.

Intel are building an R+D centre here

Violafy

This is my first post in the thread.. Unsurprisingly I haven't read every one of the 40+ pages :rolleyes:, so sorry if I'm repeating what others have been saying!


I completely agree with the idea of Irish being made compulsory, no matter what the raving fanatics may argue. My main reason is that for most of us, Irish is absolutely pointless.
For students, it's taking away from our study time for subjects we may actually benefit from when we go to uni. My view is that making it optional is a win-win situation. Irish lovers can continue to learn and speak their mother tongue to each other. Us who'd prefer to be doing other more relevant things can do just that.
Why is there a need for the Irish lovers to shove it down the throats of those who just don't have an interest in it? Being forced to learn Irish is probably one of the main reasons why a lot of people dislike the language, and there are definitely other ways to preserve Irish culture.

Whatever happens, the curriculum NEEDS to be changed, as the course is a tedious nightmare to trudge through atm. I'm in 6th year doing HL Irish, and I can't see myself ever wanting to use it again. Uircheall an Chreagain and Bimse Buan have already scarred me for life tbh. The course really is just learning stuff off, and the fact that many are more fluent in German/French etc after 6 years than in Irish after 14 years says the most for the ridiculousness of the current system.

Even if the course is changed, I still think it should be optional. It's just too outdated and irrelevant (unless you want to work for TG4 or something) to force every single student to spend so much time on it. If people stop choosing to do it... Well that's just life. Everything comes to an end at some point, and dying a natural death is better than Irish people being forced against their will to study a language which will never be compulsory for anything once they've left school.

I'm not voting Fine Gael btw, but this is one of their few policies I'm in agreement with!

deise go deo

Crosáidí wrote: »

You are best to stick Wibbs on ignore, he continually condescends and slangs irish speakers off all be it in an indirect manner, otherwise he'd be banned long ago

I know, But I am curious as to what he thinks is mealy 'lipservice' in how things are being done at the minute, and more importantly, I would like to know what he thinks would be done if support was more than just lipservice.

squod

deise go deo wrote: »

I know, But I am curious as to what he thinks is mealy 'lipservice' in how things are being done at the minute, and more importantly, I would like to know what he thinks would be done if support was more than just lipservice.

Wibbs is a bloke ((:eek:))

Krusader

Why dont students actually as teachers to actually learn them the language instead of going through stories and ****, it will be easier in the long run. join a cumann gaelach when you go to college and you'll see the fun side of the language

Krusader

deise go deo wrote: »

I know, But I am curious as to what he thinks is mealy 'lipservice' in how things are being done at the minute, and more importantly, I would like to know what he thinks would be done if support was more than just lipservice.

Your only giving it more of a chance to vomit its biggoted crap

deise go deo

Violafy wrote: »

Even if the course is changed, I still think it should be optional. It's just too outdated and irrelevant (unless you want to work for TG4 or something) to force every single student to spend so much time on it. If people stop choosing to do it... Well that's just life. Everything comes to an end at some point, and dying a natural death is better than Irish people being forced against their will to study a language which will never be compulsory for anything once they've left school.

I'm not voting Fine Gael btw, but this is one of their few policies I'm in agreement with!

The problem is that there is more to it than that, as argued far better than I ever could by Leto here

If Irish in its current state is made optional, there will be a massive exodus from learning it, not because 'thats life' but because of how the subject has been mishandled up till now.

deise go deo

Crosáidí wrote: »

Your only giving it more of a chance to vomit its biggoted crap

At least he comes across as sincere, I may disagree with his position entirely, but I don't doubt the honesty of his arguments, he has, unlike others, been willing to face up to an argument and put across his own side, however full of unnecessary snide remarks, I can respect his honesty and consistency in his stance.

As such, I expect his answer if annoying to be an honest attempt to outline his position.(this is more than can be expected from most)

deise go deo

squod wrote: »

Wibbs is a bloke ((:eek:))

Wibbs is a girl? I havent had much dealings with her as I have mentioned I find her to be unnecessarily snide and patronising.(at least when it comes to Irish.)

Mr. Bean.

IvySlayer wrote: »

Restructure the entire thing.

Learning Irish poetry and stories was ****ing ridiculous and it has not once benfited me in life. Start teaching in like the way French/German is. Considering Irish has to be learned through all of our school life and Irish is still dying as a language, is that not a sign the current cirrculum is not suitable?

The curriculum has been changed. this year (2011) is the last year of the current syllabus. As far as I'm aware, People will soon be given the option whether to do drama or poetry. Furthermore, there's going to be less stories etc. and a greater emphasis put on the oral and listening, which, in my opinion, is far more practical.

However, Fine Gael's plans to axe the language are ridiculous. It's purely only an attempt to attract voters who are crap at Irish. How dare they even suggest for one minute, removing Irish, The first language of our country, as a compulsory subject...Especially if English, The second language of the state, will enjoy compulsory status.

Violafy

deise go deo wrote: »

The problem is that there is more to it than that, as argued far better than I ever could by Leto here

If Irish in its current state is made optional, there will be a massive exodus from learning it, not because 'thats life' but because of how the subject has been mishandled up till now.

I agree that it's been dreadfully mishandled. That's why I said that even if Irish IS made optional, the course needs to be completely changed. Most people definitely wouldn't choose to learn it in its current state, but maybe they would if the course was made more like that of the modern European languages. I do enjoy learning languages, but not endless reams of poetry and the like. Leto's idea in terms of changing the curriculum and waiting a few years before making it optional was good, but it needs to be made optional imo, purely because it's just not relevant (for most people) in today's society.

squod

deise go deo wrote: »

Wibbs is a girl? I havent had much dealings with her as I have mentioned I find her to be unnecessarily snide and patronising.(at least when it comes to Irish.)

Honestly I've no idea whether he is a she, vice versa or A. another. There's an ignore list there for just that reason though. I use mine!

lmaopml

IvySlayer wrote: »

Restructure the entire thing.

Learning Irish poetry and stories was ****ing ridiculous and it has not once benfited me in life. Start teaching in like the way French/German is. Considering Irish has to be learned through all of our school life and Irish is still dying as a language, is that not a sign the current cirrculum is not suitable?

'If we start teaching in 'like' the way French/German is taught' in their respective countries, then we become neutral - 'nobody' in particular.

Considering Irish 'has to be learned through all of our school life, ( God love ye ) and is a 'dying' language...then perhaps we should just always secumb to a 'new' curriculum' ala our European friends, who wouldn't consider for one second giving up their heritage/language and evolve and forget everything..!

Cheers, that was really inspirational..It's hard and useless so forget it; yay

..because the French and German just forget their 'native' tongue and if they haven't they never had to fight for it; let's see that battle? I think they would do better then you today on boards..lol...

I have two little boys, I will vote FG in this election, but I have a massive problem with the 'pftt' approach to the Irish language....some of us were not particularly 'good' at it (me) but still value the anchor and historical value of it, ( it's actually still spoken lest we forget ) most especially at 'Leaving Cert' level it is very very important...

If nothing else it shows character and perseverance....

..and that is of a 'particular' value! Short cuts - are easy peezy! but to excel is different...

Violafy

Mr. Bean. wrote: »

However, Fine Gael's plans to axe the language are ridiculous. It's purely only an attempt to attract voters who are crap at Irish. How dare they even suggest for one minute, removing Irish, The first language of our country, as a compulsory subject...Especially if English, The second language of the state, will enjoy compulsory status.

Are you being sarcastic? :rolleyes: If not... They dare suggest it because Irish is possibly the least relevant and useful subject on the curriculum at the moment, in terms of needing it after leaving school. Maybe English is compulsory because it's the language everybody speaks? And you're living in the dark ages if you think English is only the second language of this country.

lmaopml

Violafy wrote: »

Are you being sarcastic? :rolleyes: If not... They dare suggest it because Irish is possibly the least relevant and useful subject on the curriculum at the moment, in terms of needing it after leaving school. Maybe English is compulsory because it's the language everybody speaks? And you're living in the dark ages if you think English is only the second language of this country.

It's not a case of that! We have Gaelscoil who sit every exam 'as gaeilge'...

English is very important, so too is french, spanish and lately chinese...

'Value' is a personal thing!

Irish is quite frankly our 'native' tongue, behing the times as it might sound...either we value it's endurance or we resign it to a bygone age and all learn to speak only 'English' or 'French' or 'Chinese' whatever the case may be...

I think FG have misfired on the 'value' of the Irish languange, and I truely believe that most people 'do' value it, even if we weren't particularly 'good' at it...

..and **** it there were some fabulous 'Irish' poets, who with translation we learned their value. We're a very plastic society these days if we forget ourselves? no?

Krusader

Violafy wrote: »

Are you being sarcastic? :rolleyes: If not... They dare suggest it because Irish is possibly the least relevant and useful subject on the curriculum at the moment, in terms of needing it after leaving school. Maybe English is compulsory because it's the language everybody speaks? And you're living in the dark ages if you think English is only the second language of this country.

A subject is as relevant as you personally make it

Violafy

Crosáidí wrote: »

A subject is as relevant as you personally make it

True, but that applies to all subjects. Therefore, I see no reason to make Irish compulsory while the likes of Biology and History can be studied by choice.

Krusader

We need an overhaul of our 3 chroí-ábhar before we make them optional, otherwise it defeats the purpose

tim9002

Mr. Bean. wrote: »

The curriculum has been changed. this year (2011) is the last year of the current syllabus. As far as I'm aware, People will soon be given the option whether to do drama or poetry. Furthermore, there's going to be less stories etc. and a greater emphasis put on the oral and listening, which, in my opinion, is far more practical.

However, Fine Gael's plans to axe the language are ridiculous. It's purely only an attempt to attract voters who are crap at Irish. How dare they even suggest for one minute, removing Irish, The first language of our country, as a compulsory subject...Especially if English, The second language of the state, will enjoy compulsory status.

Fine Gael are not planning to scrap Irish. Their plan is to make it optional for the leaving cert. Big difference. Irish is the only compulsory subject on the leaving cert sylabus. Try and reasearch some facts before posting in future.

Krusader

tim9002 wrote: »

Fine Gael are not planning to scrap Irish. Their plan is to make it optional for the leaving cert. Big difference. Irish is the only compulsory subject on the leaving cert sylabus. Try and reasearch some facts before posting in future.

Its not really now is it, thats like me saying Irish is the nó1 language in Ireland, while its technically correct, its not really

deise go deo

squod wrote: »

Honestly I've no idea whether he is a she, vice versa or A. another. There's an ignore list there for just that reason though. I use mine!

I tend to use my ignore list very sparingly, Wibbs hasent quite earned a place on it (yet;) )

Violafy

lmaopml wrote: »

It's not a case of that! We have Gaelscoil who sit every exam 'as gaeilge'...

English is very important, so too is french, spanish and lately chinese...

'Value' is a personal thing!

Irish is quite frankly our 'native' tongue, behing the times as it might sound...either we value it's endurance or we resign it to a bygone age and all learn to speak only 'English' or 'French' or 'Chinese' whatever the case may be...

I think FG have misfired on the 'value' of the Irish languange, and I truely believe that most people 'do' value it, even if we weren't particularly 'good' at it...

..and **** it there were some fabulous 'Irish' poets, who with translation we learned their value. We're a very plastic society these days if we forget ourselves? no?

I know some do speak Irish daily, but it's a tiny minority. Therefore... English is the first language of this country!
Most people do value the Irish language and heritage, but that doesn't mean we want to be forced to learn it when we could be doing other things in which we have more of an interest. Optionalising it means that only those who want to need to study it and spend time on it for exams. I don't see how that misfires on the value of Irish - FG realise that Irish isn't a necessity for the current day and age. Plenty of people still value Irish and that's fine, as they'll be able to learn it whether FG make it optional or not.
It's just people who want to force those with absolutely no interest in the language (though they may still help to preserve other parts of Irish culture eg GAA) which annoys me.

deise go deo

Violafy wrote: »

I agree that it's been dreadfully mishandled. That's why I said that even if Irish IS made optional, the course needs to be completely changed. Most people definitely wouldn't choose to learn it in its current state, but maybe they would if the course was made more like that of the modern European languages. I do enjoy learning languages, but not endless reams of poetry and the like. Leto's idea in terms of changing the curriculum and waiting a few years before making it optional was good, but it needs to be made optional imo, purely because it's just not relevant (for most people) in today's society.

I would suggest that Irish is gaining in relevance.

English poems etc are hardly relevant to most peoples lives, yet they are learned, Not because of any direct functionality but because they are important in terms of the education system. They give a greater understanding of the context of the language we(most of us) use every day, Irish is similar, though as I said, its functional relevance is growing, It gives a greater understanding to the context of Irish culture, who we are as a people.
Maths also, LC maths is of very limited function, but its value as an educational tool is greater than its narrow functional application.

These are very important in terms of a balanced and well rounded education.

I agree completely that Irish needs to be reformed, and not only reformed, but restructured. I disagree on making it optional, I don't think there is any need to remove it as a core subject. But then it does mostly depend on how Irish is reformed, I think that if it is reformed properly, then after the 'cooling off' period, the problems of today that cause most people to favor making it optional will have been resolved, making weather or not it is optional fade as an issue.