Fine Gael policy to end compusory Irish till Leaving Cert

Son Of A Vidic

Remove it all together and give our kids a critical language for the 21st century - like Mandarin perhaps.

deise go deo

Corvus Maximus wrote: »

Remove it all together and give our kids a critical language for the 21st century - like Mandarin perhaps.

Why is destroying our own culture necessary for the 21st century? I don't see many other country's doing it.

Krusader

deise go deo wrote: »

Why is destroying our own culture necessary for the 21st century? I don't see many other country's doing it.

Other countries don't have a tendency for self-loathing.

deise go deo

Crosáidí wrote: »

Other countries don't have a tendency for self-loathing.

Thats true of the majority in this country too, I am just wondering why he thinks it is necessary for use to abandon our culture for the 21st century when other country's dont.

twinQuins

Ah. So, when someone doesn't like the Irish language it must be self-loathing or a desire to destroy "our" culture.

Could you explain what, exactly, is so bad about making the language optional?
Just a straight up answer: why?

Wibbs

deise go deo wrote: »

Wibbs, I have seen you use this term 'lipservice' several times, Now can you please tell me what difference there would be between the current situation which is apparently lipservice, and a situation where the thing was being taken seriously?

I use the term as regards the population of Ireland, not so much what can be done. This has been much of the problem of the Irish language movement IMHO. It's been a lot about "how can we foist this on people, sure isn't it our language". Now pardon me if I get all mystic meg here but I reckon you'll look at that and think "no he's* wrong!", but step back and look at the history of the language since the foundation of the state. Look how it's taught.

It's taught from the first position that it's a native language of the student. Which is clearly crapola. You'll note many people on this and other threads on the subject will all agree the way its taught has to be changed as it never worked. What they're actually saying is teach Irish as a foreign language, because guess what it is for the majority of the people on this island. :eek: Put it another way; everyone blames how Irish is taught on the lack of takeup, yes? Now imagine if you will that english was taught the same way(and IIRC it's not much better actually). Do you think English would die ou or be restricted to 100,000 peoplet? I seriously doubt it. Why, because whether you like it or not(and believe it or not I would be not dissimilar on the liking part) English is currently and has been for well over a century our "native" language. Indeed we've made it our own on the world stage.

This is something the fundi Irish lobbyists will never admit, but will acknowledge in a roundabout way. Irish is not our native language. It is foreign to the majority of Irish people. it would be foreign to 95% of Irish people if it didn't have the support it has had for near 100 years. So they continue to teach it as if it is relevant and modern and ours by default. Yet most Irish people leave school either hating the damn thing or sad they didnt learn it as part of their "culture"(even if it's not).

You want Irish as a majority language here? I used to suggest banning it, but the Irish are only rebellious overseas, not here(hence it's a minority language). Now I would say, drop all the ballsology of it being "our native" language. Embrace that it's a cultural concept of value to us as a nation and teach it as a foreign language. The longer the Gaelgoirs cling to the BS, the longer it will remain as a minority language.

Crosáidí wrote: »

There's nothing political about a language, ye have yours we have ours, they can co-exsist. It's more of a cultural symbol as is Ullans

There's nothing political about a language? You must be having a laugh. Culture informs politics. Hell its the basis for it. Read more. And I genuinely say that without malice.

Crosáidí wrote: »

Intel are building an R+D centre here

That's cool and the gang, but I'll lay bets it wont be running it's day to day R&D or biz as Gaelige.

Crosáidí wrote: »

Your only giving it more of a chance to vomit its biggoted crap

It? Now I'm an it. Ah well Well to be fair you're not a bigot. Just digging the heels in culturally. Not uncommon. Nosce te ipsum(though thats more for the Irish/latin thread to be fair )




*Yep I'm a bloke.

deise go deo

twinQuins wrote: »

Ah. So, when someone doesn't like the Irish language it must be self-loathing or a desire to destroy "our" culture.

Could you explain what, exactly, is so bad about making the language optional?
Just a straight up answer: why?

No, When someone wants to remove Irish completely from the education system in a misguided attempt to be 'modern' on the other hand.......

twinQuins

That's not what I asked.

Wibbs

deise go deo wrote: »

Why is destroying our own culture necessary for the 21st century? I don't see many other country's doing it.

This is the problem I have DgD. It's but a part of our culture. I know others get their knickers bunched on this point, but Irish is and has been for quite a long time just one part of our culture. Look at the last 100 years of our cultural impact on ourselves and the rest of the world. Yes the Irish language is in there certainly, but in a pretty tiny amount. It's influence is large(hence I say I'm after doing something etc) and that's great, but it's only a small part of us. Like I said and others came down with twisted knickers, Irish is more rural. If you and yours are from an urban centre on this island, which would be most of us, then Irish as a language has not been vital to you beyond the cultural interest. Yes the urban did impose english on the rural and that was daft, so why do the reverse?

Wibbs

twinQuins wrote: »

Could you explain what, exactly, is so bad about making the language optional?
Just a straight up answer: why?

twinQuins wrote: »

That's not what I asked.

Yep, so can anyone answer tQ's question? Seems pretty simple.

Wibbs

Can we keep it on track thet the threrad is about removing the -compulsory- status of irish at -leaving cert- level, not the removal of Irish teaching as a whole?

I support reform of how Irish language is taught.

Wibbs wrote: »

Embrace that it's a cultural concept of value to us as a nation and teach it as a foreign language.

Wibbs, I find that to be an excellent compromise. If you mean foreign language as in being taught in a similar syllabus as to other foreign languages, then I'm very much agreed. I reckon there needs to be two syllibi for the Irish language. Heck, with the amount of New Irish here, maybe there'd be a case for two syllibi for English as well!

deise go deo

Wibbs wrote: »

I use the term as regards the population of Ireland, not so much what can be done. This has been much of the problem of the Irish language movement IMHO. It's been a lot about "how can we foist this on people, sure isn't it our language". Now pardon me if I get all mystic meg here but I reckon you'll look at that and think "no he's* wrong!", but step back and look at the history of the language since the foundation of the state. Look how it's taught.

Moving beyond the underlying motivations of the language movement its self, There must be a way for a state to seriously promote a second language into wider use, Now, from your posts, i get the impression that you dont think this is happening here, that attempts to promote the language are just lipservice(outside of the language movement itself)

So what would you expect if promoting the language was more than just lipservice? How would things be different than they are now.

(This /\ is the bit I wanted answered most;) )

It's taught from the first position that it's a native language of the student. Which is clearly crapola. You'll note many people on this and other threads on the subject will all agree the way its taught has to be changed as it never worked. What they're actually saying is teach Irish as a foreign language, because guess what it is for the majority of the people on this island. :eek: Put it another way; everyone blames how Irish is taught on the lack of takeup, yes? Now imagine if you will that english was taught the same way(and IIRC it's not much better actually). Do you think English would die ou or be restricted to 100,000 peoplet? I seriously doubt it. Why, because whether you like it or not(and believe it or not I would be not dissimilar on the liking part) English is currently and has been for well over a century our "native" language. Indeed we've made it our own on the world stage.

I think you are over playing the whole foreign bit. Irish isent a foreign language, it is a second language.

Irish does absolutely need to be taught through an L2 structure, it is a second language for most people, teaching it as a first language(though I disagree that this is what is actually happening) cannot work to teach it as a second language.

There is no problem with admitting that Irish is a second language for most people(That is obvious to the point of not needing to be 'admitted')

As for for the comparison with English, apples and oranges, If peoples parents were fluent in Irish starting off and people grew up as native Irish speakers as they do with English then its status would in schools would make no difference and would naturally be a core subject along with English.
This is not the case.

This is something the fundi Irish lobbyists will never admit, but will acknowledge in a roundabout way. Irish is not our native language. It is foreign to the majority of Irish people. it would be foreign to 95% of Irish people if it didn't have the support it has had for near 100 years. So they continue to teach it as if it is relevant and modern and ours by default. Yet most Irish people leave school either hating the damn thing or sad they didnt learn it as part of their "culture"(even if it's not).

Irish will never be foreign to Irish people, How could it be foreign? It may be a language they wont know, but that is a different thing.
Irish is not our native language in a strict definition of what a native language is, but that is not what is meant when Irish is called 'our native language' What is meant is the undeniable relevance and attachment Irish has with the vast majority of the population, even if only in a vague sense.

You want Irish as a majority language here? I used to suggest banning it, but the Irish are only rebellious overseas, not here(hence it's a minority language). Now I would say, drop all the ballsology of it being "our native" language. Embrace that it's a cultural concept of value to us as a nation and teach it as a foreign language. The longer the Gaelgoirs cling to the BS, the longer it will remain as a minority language.

Not specifically, My ideal would be Bilingualism.

As for Gaelgoirs clinging to the BS, Have a look at CnaG's website, the only ones clinging to the BS that is the current system of teaching Irish is the dept.

The Irish language movement has long recognized the problems, and has a list of reforms for bringing how Irish is taught into line with international norms for Second language learning.

Morlar

Cathaoirleach wrote: »

ENC: Enda Kenny, what is Fine Gael's policy?

EK: This is Fine Gael's policy. Additional marks will be awarded to students doing higher level Irish.

ENC: But Enda, this policy has changed.

EK: I will do this before abolishing compulsory Irish.

ENC: When do you propose to abolish compulsory Irish?

EK: When a review of the curriculum
and teacher training review has been completed.

ENC: So you do plan to abolish compulsory Irish at LC level?

EK: I've been listening to reports in recent weeks.

ENC: Yes or no, Enda? Yes or no?

ENC: Answer the question, yes or no?

EK: Reports that I plan to completely abolish the Irish language.

EK:But I plan to strengthen it.

ENC: But that's what you said on RÚnaG.

MM: That is Fine Gael's policy.

Thanks for clearing that up

deise go deo

Wibbs wrote: »

This is the problem I have DgD. It's but a part of our culture. I know others get their knickers bunched on this point, but Irish is and has been for quite a long time just one part of our culture. Look at the last 100 years of our cultural impact on ourselves and the rest of the world. Yes the Irish language is in there certainly, but in a pretty tiny amount. It's influence is large(hence I say I'm after doing something etc) and that's great, but it's only a small part of us. Like I said and others came down with twisted knickers, Irish is more rural. If you and yours are from an urban centre on this island, which would be most of us, then Irish as a language has not been vital to you beyond the cultural interest. Yes the urban did impose english on the rural and that was daft, so why do the reverse?

Irish Language is but the symbolic manifestation in this case, I have no doubt but that anything else that could be seen as 'Irish' would be equally seen as needing to be jettisoned for Ireland to be 'Modern'

I know Irish is only part of our culture, but the question is still valid, why should we need to destroy part of our culture to be modern? Other country's do not need to do this, why would we.

(Question not necessarily aimed at you Wibbs)

deise go deo

twinQuins wrote: »

Could you explain what, exactly, is so bad about making the language optional?
Just a straight up answer: why?

Right, FG claim that making Irish optional will promote the language, It wont. Making Irish optional will kill the language. Not because people hate it, but because that is the reality of the points system.

That is whats so bad about making Irish optional. You may not care, but thats beside the point.

twinQuins

But doesn't it stand to reason that if you force people to learn it when they clearly have no desire to, that that will kill it more surely?

Those that want to learn it will continue to do so and those that don't won't be burdened with studying the subject. You can't force your cultural ideals onto people, it just doesn't work.
And that is what rings hollow about your argument: if there is real interest in the language it will continue to be spoken but if there's not then removing Irish as a compulsory subject is just admitting that you're wrong about the interest in it.

EDIT: What I mean to say is, in relation to your point about culture - culture isn't homeostatic; plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose. It's constantly evolving as with every human institution. You may not like the change but your like or dislike is irrelevant: it will happen either way.

Krusader

twinQuins wrote: »

Ah. So, when someone doesn't like the Irish language it must be self-loathing or a desire to destroy "our" culture.

Could you explain what, exactly, is so bad about making the language optional?
Just a straight up answer: why?

Reduces status of the language (in the 70s FG removed the requirement for Irish in public service, the DoE went from doing virtually all its business in Irish to virtually none)
Will have massive effect on the Gaeltacht areas

It seems to me that when Irish seems to be getting back up on 1 knee someone comes along and virtually stabs it in the back, to keep it down


THere is a deep underlying fear of everything Irish by some people on this site. They fear the Americans, English will laugh at us, anything uniquely Irish is paddywackery, backwards, not modern. They would probably prefer to be a diluted version of an Anglo-American than to be seen as an Irishman. This is the self-loathing that lies beneath some Irish

galwayrush

During the planning process for the Galway by pass, someone decided to object because the entire submission was not translated into Irish, his complaint held the proposed project back for months while it was being translated. Only 3 copies were bought, what a monumental waste of state money because of one language warrior.

Krusader

galwayrush wrote: »

During the planning process for the Galway by pass, someone decided to object because the entire submission was not translated into Irish, his complaint held the proposed project back for months while it was being translated. Only 3 copies were bought, what a monumental waste of state money because of one language warrior.

Idiots speak in all languages

Cú Giobach

Crosáidí wrote: »

THere is a deep underlying fear of everything Irish by some people on this site. They fear the Americans, English will laugh at us, anything uniquely Irish is paddywackery, backwards, not modern. They would probably prefer to be a diluted version of an Anglo-American than to be seen as an Irishman. This is the self-loathing that lies beneath some Irish

Because of the prevalence of this attitude in some circles, it should be considered part of our culture and I think the time has come for us all to embrace this "self loathing" as part of our Anglo-Irish heritage.

Snakeblood

Crosáidí wrote: »

It seems to me that when Irish seems to be getting back up on 1 knee someone comes along and virtually stabs it in the back, to keep it down

Forcing people to do Irish is getting it back on one knee? Stopping forcing them is stabbing it in the back? It's not on one knee, it's in an iron lung.

Krusader

Snakeblood wrote: »

Forcing people to do Irish is getting it back on one knee? Stopping forcing them is stabbing it in the back? It's not on one knee, it's in an iron lung.

The Irish language has come on leaps and bounds through TG4 and the Gaeilscoileanna movement over the last 20 years

Snakeblood

Crosáidí wrote: »

The Irish language has come on leaps and bounds through TG4 and the Gaeilscoileanna movement over the last 20 years

72,000 people outside the education system use it on a daily basis. 538000 in the education system where people have to learn it. That's an iron lung. If enough people don't use a language to communicate, it's a museum piece.

If it can come back from that, great, but saying it's on one knee is cobblers. It's a lot worse off than that.

ftnbase

Crosáidí wrote: »

The Irish language has come on leaps and bounds through TG4 and the Gaeilscoileanna movement over the last 20 years

As a matter of fact between 1985 and 2002 there was a reduction of 40% in the number of pupils in Gaeltacht National Schools who mastered the Irish language. English speaking schools were slightly better with a 36% reduction.

TG4/Gaelscoileanna have not had the effect which you describe. Things have got worse as anyone who visits a Gaeltacht area knows. The youth do not speak Irish to each other.

Forcing it down peoples throats, as Irish "fanatics' have done over the years, will not revive the langauge - let people decide whether they want to speak it or not - it is their culture.

Wibbs

Crosáidí wrote: »

THere is a deep underlying fear of everything Irish by some people on this site. They fear the Americans, English will laugh at us, anything uniquely Irish is paddywackery, backwards, not modern. They would probably prefer to be a diluted version of an Anglo-American than to be seen as an Irishman. This is the self-loathing that lies beneath some Irish

No this is the BS guilt line we've been sold by a small but vocal bunch for the last century. A very narrow definition of "Irish" not what was often the reality. IE The rest of us wouldn't like to see the language disappear but actually don't give that much of a crap it seems.

You say this would reduce it's status, yet on the other hand claim "The Irish" tm are deeply supportive of the language? Doesn't really compute. If the public service usage dropped off from one extreme to the other and that quickly then how do you explain that? Obviously the PS population at the time were fairly if not fully fluent, so why start or revert to english? Clearly the culture in the place considered one language more useful over another, when the latters artificial support was take away. It was and is an artificially created "culture" outside of those areas where it is an important part of our culture. This is what the gaelgoirs dont like thinking about on dark winter evenings.

Fear is not an issue. Certainly not about anything you seem to define as Irish. Personally I don't particularly care what Americans or British people may or may not think of us. Well when I see an amadan bogman stereotype like Jackie Healy Rae aping it up for the international media(as bearla too) I might, but that's about it and eejits like that have no relevance, nor connection to my life. I'm otherwise fiercely proud of our heritage going the guts of 10,000 years back, not just one narrow, suckled on De Valera's teat version of it.

Hrududu

If I was still in school I'd be delighted at the removal of compulsory Irish at LC level. It was easily my worst subject, so the option to drop it and do a subject that I would have gotten higher points in would have been very welcome.

The main reason I don't speak any Irish now is because nobody I know speaks it. If a lot of my friends clattered away in Irish I'd probably make it my business to study it and to speak it with them.

You have to have an interest in it and you have to want to learn it and speak it. But you can't force it on people. When you do, they end up resenting the language. I know I did throughout school and for a long time after. If you give students the option then you will end up with smaller classes, but they will be filled with people that want to be there.

Wibbs

ftnbase wrote: »

As a matter of fact between 1985 and 2002 there was a reduction of 40% in the number of pupils in Gaeltacht National Schools who mastered the Irish language. English speaking schools were slightly better with a 36% reduction.

TG4/Gaelscoileanna have not had the effect which you describe. Things have got worse as anyone who visits a Gaeltacht area knows. The youth do not speak Irish to each other.

Forcing it down peoples throats, as Irish "fanatics' have done over the years, will not revive the langauge - let people decide whether they want to speak it or not - it is their culture.

Yep and like I have pointed out this happened before. In the 40's and 50's we had Gaelscoileanna up to secondary too. We had the compulsory Irish in the civil service, the requirements were far higher and more people spoke it, yet here we are.

Look I actually like the bloody language. I wish it wasn't reduced to the level it finds itself at today. I wish it was the language or erudition and science and technology, but wishing isn't worth a tinkers curse, it simply isnt and is unlikely to be for the foreseeable. No amount of the same faces, often professional Irish speakers being rotated through the studio gates of TG4* trying to convince us otherwise will make much of a diff. Nor will an extra year after the intercert.





*OT genuine question re the Ceathair bit. I recall it being pronounced "cahar", now(mostly the women on the station) seem to pronounce it Cahart with more G at the start and t sounds at the end. It sounds forced. Is this an affectation or how its actually pronounced? I only ask as if one was to go by the way hiberno english is strangled by some TV3 presenters.....

anto2

I hated Irish in School and was bad at it as a result .( it held be back ) .Only does interested in it should learn it .It being classed as non compulsary for the leaving Cert is a note of sanity .That proposal alone would make me vote for FG . ( if i was still living in old Ireland ) .

Naikon

anto2 wrote: »

I hated Irish in School and was bad at it as a result .( it held be back ) .Only does interested in it should learn it .It being classed as non compulsary for the leaving Cert is a note of sanity .That proposal alone would make me vote for FG . ( if i was still living in old Ireland ) .

Does your employer ask for the actual LC results sheet? If not, leave it off.

Motley Crue

Renn wrote: »

Has he proclaimed to be the saviour of the Irish language

By taking the language away from schoolchildren?

twinQuins

How do you get "taking it away" from "making it optional"?

CrazyRabbit

I was taught the language for 12 years. Not once in my teen/adult life have I ever had use for it, and I'm 35 now. Take a moment to digest that...12 years of learning, with no benefit.

If they were teaching origami for 12 years, you'd probably get more use out of it. Hell, I've only been learning Dutch for a few months now and I've aldready had hundreds of conversations. And when I'm fluent, I'll get a pay raise for having the 2nd language.

I'm sorry, but Irish does not help employ me, does not enhance my social interaction, and does not make me 'more Irish'. Learning it is completely and utterly pointless, and my time in school would have been better spent learning science, or another useful European language.

Wibbs

Hrududu you mentioned that forcing it on people is counterproductive and I agree. ftnbase, you mentioned the actual drop in the usage of the language and I would agree with you on that front. Both of you are making the mistake of thinking that supporters of the language will make any effort to get this. IE Earlier I suggested that the language would probably benefit from being taught as a foreign language...

deise go deo wrote: »

I think you are over playing the whole foreign bit. Irish isent a foreign language, it is a second language.

Irish does absolutely need to be taught through an L2 structure, it is a second language for most people.

There is no problem with admitting that Irish is a second language for most people(That is obvious to the point of not needing to be 'admitted')

Not picking on you in particular but this is a good example of what could be accused as head in the sand thinking, "I say it so it's true" and a refusal to come to terms with the state of the language as it actually is. You don't seem to appreciate that it is in essence a foreign language for the majority of the people of this island. It is not a second language for most people. A second language would come with at least some fluency and usage outside first language areas. It doesn't. This way of thinking is why nearly a century of education and direct and proactive government support and financial aid has left the language fooked. The speakers and supporters usually assume for the rest of us that it's our language and it's a second language and teach it accordingly.

Irish will never be foreign to Irish people, How could it be foreign? It may be a language they wont know, but that is a different thing.

It is not and has not been spoken by the majority of Irish, yes Irish people for well over a century. It has not been the language of commerce or scholarship for far longer. It is foreign to a helluva lot of us. How else is a language attached to a nation? By DNA? Hardly. A few of the readers may be Norse French on that score, so maybe should be off learning Breton. I've got Basque DNA markers, maybe I should be off learning Euskara.

It is not foreign to you. For the guts of 3 million of this nation it's not exactly local to them, save as an imposition in school and the residue of a guilt trip..

Irish is not our native language in a strict definition of what a native language is, but that is not what is meant when Irish is called 'our native language' What is meant is the undeniable relevance and attachment Irish has with the vast majority of the population, even if only in a vague sense.

Vague is the word alright. So why not leave and support it where it is and where it is relevant and leave the rest of the Irish to make up their own minds?

Krusader

If Irish was made optional tomorrow it would be to the detriment of the language, there has to be an overhaul of the curriculum 1st, this should include other subjects aswell, including the points race for college places, which doesn't help anything at all.
There are Irish speakers out there, you probably walk by them on the street everyday but don't know it

Hrududu

I wonder though how detrimental making it optional actually would be. It would be optional for the 2 LC years. The people that would drop it after the JC would probably be the same people that wouldn't end up speaking it in later life anyway. The type of person that wants to speak Irish in everyday life would still do it for the LC.

The only negative, which I think has been mentioned before is that if there aren't enough students in a school wanting to do it then they might not be able to provide a class for it.

It happened in our school for certain subjects. We couldn't do Chemistry or Applied Maths as there weren't the numbers. Students either had to not do them or do them on their own/through correspondence schools.

twinQuins

Crosáidí wrote: »

If Irish was made optional tomorrow it would be to the detriment of the language

Why? If there is, as has been parroted ad nauseum, a real interest then making it optional shouldn't be a problem.

deise go deo

twinQuins wrote: »

Why? If there is, as has been parroted ad nauseum, a real interest then making it optional shouldn't be a problem.

Originally Posted by Leto.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=70736173&postcount=3265

What I would like to see is an inversion of the current approach in which students spend years learning lists of prepositions and conjugations from copybooks, before 'studying' poetry in which they don't understand the vocabulary (let along the imagery), before, belatedly, some spoken lines are rote-learned in the year preceding the Leaving Cert oral exam and tips for extracting 'key' words from semi-comprehended tapes are given in advance of the aural. A key problem that I see - and it's a baffling one - is that the Irish syllabus almost seems to be designed for students who already have a good grasp of it, rather than for students who are mainly learning it as a second language. And this in a country that doesn't do second languages well at the best of times. For the majority of students it is/would be a second language, and needs to be taught as such. On this note, I hope dubhthach won't mind my re-posting this well-made point regarding acquired competence in second languages. Hopefully it will go some way to addressing the concerns of those who think that the existing lack of fluency among school-leavers is in itself a damning indictment of Irish.

What I would like is for the language to be primarily heard and spoken in early classes so that the children can - shock! horror! - actually use it to express themselves to their teacher, their classmates, and (if mutually agreeable) their parents. I'm a fan of the idea of occasionally using Irish in the classroom while teaching other subjects. Aside from anything else, it could be a useful exercise for those subjects to get children thinking about how to explain something in a second language that they are comfortable with. At second level, Irish communication and Irish literature could easily be two separate subjects, which would help to disentangle much of the existing negative association.

My concern is that if an announcement came tomorrow that Irish as it currently exists were to become an opt-in subject before this change in teaching focus, it would be on the receiving end of a backlash - a negative bounce, for lack of a better term. Some students would get out purely because they could, some current students who have slogged through the existing hames of a syllabus would get out to end the misery, plenty of parents with unhappy memories would (strongly) discourage their children from getting involved with the remembered misery, and young students down the line would look at this relative exodus and, as usual, take their lead from those before them. For that reason, and that alone, if I were making the decisions I would re-align the curriculum and teaching goals first and then wait a few years for perceptions to settle before changing the educational status of the language.

Krusader

Even kids that love it will be hesitent in doing it because of the points race for college places, languages are generally harder subjects, Irish has 2 papers

galwayrush

Crosáidí wrote: »

If Irish was made optional tomorrow it would be to the detriment of the language, there has to be an overhaul of the curriculum 1st, this should include other subjects aswell, including the points race for college places, which doesn't help anything at all.
There are Irish speakers out there, you probably walk by them on the street everyday but don't know it

I was forced to do Irish as a subject in my L.C . I can't speak it. I never use it. I don't see how making it optional in an exam will be to it's detriment. There are Irish speakers out there,will always be, but not because they were forced to do it in one exam.

twinQuins

deise go deo wrote: »

Originally Posted by Leto.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=70736173&postcount=3265

Crosáidí wrote: »

Even kids that love it will be hesitent in doing it because of the points race for college places, languages are generally harder subjects, Irish has 2 papers

Okay... that still doesn't answer my question, though. If there is interest in the language why would ending it's compulsory nature be detrimental?

Would everyone in the country suddenly stop speaking it? Would people no longer take an interest in it and study it in their own time?

ftnbase

twinQuins wrote: »

Okay... that still doesn't answer my question, though. If there is interest in the language why would ending it's compulsory nature be detrimental?

Would everyone in the country suddenly stop speaking it? Would people no longer take an interest in it and study it in their own time?

The most vocal groups which I have heard objecting the FG proposal are:

Irsih Summer Colleges
Bean an Tí (those who keep the students attending Irish Summer Colleges)

Both of these claim that having Irish as an optional subject would reduce the number attending the Summer Colleges ...................... and consequently their incomes (up to €20,000 Tax free for Bean an Tí's pr annum). I think that is the main reason it is suggested that it is detrimental.

In Northern Ireland where Irish was optional 20 years ago those who chose to learn it learned it well - we should allow our youth to do the same.

deise go deo

twinQuins wrote: »

Okay... that still doesn't answer my question, though. If there is interest in the language why would ending it's compulsory nature be detrimental?

Would everyone in the country suddenly stop speaking it? Would people no longer take an interest in it and study it in their own time?

Because even if someone is interested in Learning the language, the current system will prevent them from choosing it.

Wanting to learn something is not at the top of the priority list when making choices for the LC.

Why would someone choose Irish if they can get the same points in a different subject with a much smaller workload?

galwayrush

ftnbase wrote: »

The most vocal groups which I have heard objecting the FG proposal are:

Irsih Summer Colleges
Bean an Tí (those who keep the students attending Irish Summer Colleges)

Both of these claim that having Irish as an optional subject would reduce the number attending the Summer Colleges ...................... and consequently their incomes (up to €20,000 Tax free for Bean an Tí's pr annum). I think that is the main reason it is suggested that it is detrimental.

In Northern Ireland where Irish was optional 20 years ago those who chose to learn it learned it well - we should allow our youth to do the same.

Bean on Tís also qualify for generous home improvement grants as well.

twinQuins

I think you missed my point: what's to stop such people from studying Irish in their own time, if they want to learn it but not at school?

Why is learning Irish in school so important to keeping the language alive? Again, won't people just study it in their own time if they really are interested in it? If there is interest in the language - real interest - then whether it's taught in schools or not should be irrelevant.

deise go deo

ftnbase wrote: »

The most vocal groups which I have heard objecting the FG proposal are:

Irsih Summer Colleges
Bean an Tí (those who keep the students attending Irish Summer Colleges)

Both of these claim that having Irish as an optional subject would reduce the number attending the Summer Colleges ...................... and consequently their incomes (up to €20,000 Tax free for Bean an Tí's pr annum). I think that is the main reason it is suggested that it is detrimental.

In Northern Ireland where Irish was optional 20 years ago those who chose to learn it learned it well - we should allow our youth to do the same.

Yes, the detrimental effect it will have on the economy is certainly an issue, damaging domestic tourism is hardly a good idea in these times.

But the overall negative effect on the language and its future is the real problem.

deise go deo

twinQuins wrote: »

I think you missed my point: what's to stop such people from studying Irish in their own time, if they want to learn it but not at school?

Why is learning Irish in school so important to keeping the language alive? Again, won't people just study it in their own time if they really are interested in it?

Why should people have to go it alone? Why put hurdles in the way of people who want to learn Irish?

How many people do you know that have the time, determination or money to learn a language on their own?

galwayrush

. Irish music and dancing didn't die out, people who are genuinely interested in them keep them alive.
Back to the language.
One of my kids is pretty good at languages, the other is not. One would possibly obtain more points in the LC with Irish, the other would probably be better off doing an extra science subject instead. I hope they have a choice when the time comes.

twinQuins

How is making it optional creating a hurdle? If they want to learn it they can, if not they don't.

How many people do you know that have the time, determination or money to learn a language on their own

If the interest in the language is as real as you make it out to be and it's as important to the public as it is claimed, then these considerations should not factor into it. Enough people will find a way to learn it.

deise go deo

deise go deo wrote: »

Why should people have to go it alone? Why put hurdles in the way of people who want to learn Irish?

How many people do you know that have the time, determination or money to learn a language on their own?

Are you aware that the idea is to make it AN OPTION?? The classes will still be there, along with teachers and interested kids. How can you not grasp this simple concept?

Iwasfrozen

galwayrush wrote: »

. Irish music and dancing didn't die out, people who are genuinely interested in them keep them alive.
Back to the language.
One of my kids is pretty good at languages, the other is not. One would possibly obtain more points in the LC with Irish, the other would probably be better off doing an extra science subject instead. I hope they have a choice when the time comes.

No wonder they're shouting so much to keep Irish forced on children.