Fine Gael policy to end compusory Irish till Leaving Cert

Ian_K

Deleted User wrote: »

Are you aware that the idea is to make it AN OPTION?? The classes will still be there, along with teachers and interested kids. How can you not grasp this simple concept?

The problem, however, is that schools will stop offering irish altogether when the numbers doing it start dropping (which they undoubtably will, particularly in urban areas)

If only half a dozen students choose to study irish in a particular school i can guarentee you it wont be long before the school stops offering it altogether, this is the problem, making it optional is the beginning of the end imo

Kenny, as a Gaelgóir, cant really believe this is going to do any good for the language and this is what really pisses me off, this is all a stunt to attract votes from people like yourself (and a huge amount of boards users apparently) that have grown up hating irish because of the way it has been taught

deise go deo

Deleted User wrote: »

Are you aware that the idea is to make it AN OPTION?? The classes will still be there, along with teachers and interested kids. How can you not grasp this simple concept?

Can you not grasp that there is more to it than that? Take me as an example, I love the language, Given a choice, I would not have studied it for the LC, Why? Not because I dident want to, but because the system it exists in and how the curriculum is structured means that I would be putting myself at a disadvantage in the points race by choosing it.

Making Irish optional now will have a detrimental effect for this reason, that is why the subject needs to be restructured, not made optional.

twinQuins

Would you be averse to both restructuring the syllabus and making it optional?

deise go deo

twinQuins wrote: »

Would you be averse to both restructuring the syllabus and making it optional?

I would be averse to making it optional now, regardless of what was done to the curriculum.

If there was a through reform or the subject first, then making it optional would be far less likely to be problematic.
This is, although it is still very unclear, FG's proposed approach.

We will have to wait and see what kind of reforms are implemented and their results, but it would be a good step in the right direction whatever your opinion is.

Honestly, if after a proper reform, evidence could be shown that making it optional would not lead to the same results as was suffered in England, then I would not mind it being made optional, but at the same time, in such a situation there would be very little need to do so anyway, in my opinion.

twinQuins

I'm afraid I don't know what you're referring to, with regards England.

galwayrush

twinQuins wrote: »

I'm afraid I don't know what you're referring to, with regards England.

That bit confused me as well.

Ian_K

Ian_K wrote: »

The problem, however, is that schools will stop offering irish altogether when the numbers doing it start dropping (which they undoubtably will, particularly in urban areas)

If the language is as popular as is being made out that shouldnt be an issue.

WolfForager

The thing is that the vast majority of kids can see that it's a useless lannguage to them internationally and no amount of tweaking the course is going to change that. Why bother then learning this useless.language? It appears to me from reading this thread that the people who are against the motion are blinded by their own love of the language and therefore are not considering the party directly involved, the secondary school kids.

Nadser

Tackled a FG candidate on this matter this morning. He said FG didn't want to end compulsory Irish in the leaving certificate, they just want to open up a discussion about it - his words!

Wibbs

Nadser wrote: »

Tackled a FG candidate on this matter this morning. He said FG didn't want to end compulsory Irish in the leaving certificate, they just want to open up a discussion about it - his words!

So basically bullshít as Bearla acus as Gaelige then? Sounds about right. :rolleyes:

Krusader

twinQuins wrote: »

I'm afraid I don't know what you're referring to, with regards England.

Languages were made optional in England and kids are now reluctant to pick them a drop of about 35%-40% was seen since this happened

This thread needs a soundtrack

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lBd4-en-ncE

twinQuins

So, essentially, the interest was artificial. They were interested because they had to study the languages, like it or lump it.

See, that's my point: either there's no real interest in the language in which case making it optional won't actually do any harm anyway or there is in which case people will continue to learn it.

galwayrush

Crosáidí wrote: »

Languages were made optional in England and kids are now reluctant to pick them a drop of about 35%-40% was seen since this happened

So, most people in England now only speak English?:pac::pac:
Seriously,despite being forced to learn Irish here, i expect a much higher percentage than 35-40 % of us can't or don't speak Irish.
It will not die out if it's non compulsary,it will not grow if it's forced. There should be a choice.

Wibbs

Crosáidí wrote: »

Languages were made optional in England and kids are now reluctant to pick them a drop of about 35%-40% was seen since this happened

Foreign languages one presumes. Surely if Irish is our native or even second language that's not likely to happen?

This thread needs a soundtrack

Oh god no. :eek: As a general and pretty good rule pop/rock in anything but English is up there in the cringe stakes. At best it's like opera in english(or indeed sean nos voice in english) or at worst christian "rock". *shudder* Punk sounds good in German mind.

Krusader

twinQuins wrote: »

So, essentially, the interest was artificial. They were interested because they had to study the languages, like it or lump it.

See, that's my point: either there's no real interest in the language in which case making it optional won't actually do any harm anyway or there is in which case people will continue to learn it.

Welsh has been made compulsary up to 16 and has seen arise in speakers, fix the curriculum and we will see a rise then make all subjects optional for LC

Wibbs

twinQuins wrote: »

So, essentially, the interest was artificial. They were interested because they had to study the languages, like it or lump it.

Bingo. Even when it was artificially a required subject for more careers than it is today it still didn't spread the language, because as was admitted earlier in the case of the civil service, the very second that requirement was gone so was the use of the language. In people already fairly fluent in it. They simply didnt have enough of a love or use for the language.

Fine if you want to continue speaking it, indeed I would support it in those areas, but why the hell are the rest of us paying for that cultural self indulgence outside of same?

Meh the Gaelic lobby are a right vocal bunch, real quick to denounce others, real quick to attempt guilt trips, but equally quick looking for handouts for their sacred cow.

ftnbase

deise go deo wrote: »

Yes, the detrimental effect it will have on the economy is certainly an issue, damaging domestic tourism is hardly a good idea in these times.

But the overall negative effect on the language and its future is the real problem.

A college course costs €800ish for three weeks. If Irish is made optional and prevents some Leaving Cert students from attending an Irish College in the summer the €800 will stay in their parent's pocket (in Ireland). The Irish College will lose out but not all of those are owned by Ireland (Rep of) anyway so it will save on money going North. Bean an Ti's will allegedly lose out but if they pay no tax on what they earn they must be making no profit so it is not a real loss to them.

BTW how do you know there will be an overall negative effect - I know FG have no proof that it will make things better but neither do you have proof that it will make it worse.. Bottom line is that we have being going backwards for decades using what you are trying to protect so there is no evidence that abolishing the compulsory Irish will be detrimental.

Krusader

Alot of Americans, Europeans and Canadians come to the gaeltacht to learn Irish also

ftnbase

Crosáidí wrote: »

Alot of Americans, Europeans and Canadians come to the gaeltacht to learn Irish also

I have no doubt that they do but whether Irish in compulsory in the Leaving Cert or not will not affect them. They come because they want to learn not because they are forced to come.

Wibbs

Crosáidí wrote: »

Welsh has been made compulsary up to 16 and has seen arise in speakers, fix the curriculum and we will see a rise then make all subjects optional for LC

Eh Irish has been compulsory for nearly a century. It is required to matriculate to the NUI colleges. It was and is a requirement for quite a few careers that have eff all to do with a need for it. Literally billions have been pumped into it all over the place. Yet it has steadily fallen in usage with a few transient blips since the foundation of this state. I'm sure the phrase "flogging a dead horse" has some equivalent in Irish.

Alot of Americans, Europeans and Canadians come to the gaeltacht to learn Irish also

"A lot" isn't approaching an argument in favour. Stats or links please. Where do you get this from? So now its valuable for cultural tourism? Eh what? I know you like changing goalposts, but at least stay in the same game.

Crosáidí

Crosáidí wrote: »

Alot of Americans, Europeans and Canadians come to the gaeltacht to learn Irish also

So? They can still come if Irish is optional for the LC.

galwayrush

Crosáidí wrote: »

Alot of Americans, Europeans and Canadians come to the gaeltacht to learn Irish also

They come by choice, as will anybody else who wants to learn the language. The people from abroad are not coming because they are forced to do it in a Leaving Cert type exam.

PrincessLola

Crosáidí wrote: »

Alot of Americans, Europeans and Canadians come to the gaeltacht to learn Irish also

Out of their own free choice.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Not wantign to trawl back over seven hundred odd posts, can somoene tell me: has anyone come up with a good reasons why Iirsh should be kept mandatroy after the LC?

Been looking for an answer for that for ages.

Ian_K

Deleted User wrote: »

If the language is as popular as is being made out that shouldnt be an issue.

WolfForager wrote: »

The thing is that the vast majority of kids can see that it's a useless lannguage to them internationally and no amount of tweaking the course is going to change that. Why bother then learning this useless.language? It appears to me from reading this thread that the people who are against the motion are blinded by their own love of the language and therefore are not considering the party directly involved, the secondary school kids.

I am a leaving cert student, will be doing my HL Irish mock exam the week after next as it happens

The syllabus is stupid, we have kids studying poetry in irish before they know how to put two sentences together, the problem in this is that because of the way the country is you could have two students going in to do the same exam,
Student 1 is from a Gaeltacht and has been fluent in irish since they were 5 years old
Student 2 is not from a Gaeltacht and only has they irish they have been force-fed in school

Trying to design a syllabus that is both challenging for a Gaelgóir and possible for a purely school taught irish student to get an A in is close to impossible!

The current system is bollix because its all about learning off analysis of the poems etc.
I'd like to see a course with 50% going for the oral, 25% for the aural and 25% for a written test (just an essay and reading comps maybe)

I accept that academicly speaking the irish language is useless but its not about that, it should be maintained out of pride, culture and identity, ideally with a leaving cert syllabus producing students whom all can speak and understand irish to a high level, not just recite a load of shíte about some Cathal O Searcaigh poem!

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Ian_K wrote: »

I accept that academicly speaking the irish language is useless but its not about that, it should be maintained out of pride, culture and identity, ideally with a leaving cert syllabus producing students whom all can speak and understand irish to a high level, not just recite a load of shíte about some Cathal O Searcaigh poem!

It#s all vey well YOU ebing proud of it, but if you classmate isn't why do you get the power to choose for him?

"Pride", "cluture" and "identity" are just buzzwordsl. They mean completly different thigns to different people. You can't conform people to your standards in a free country.

Update the course all you want, but if you do it peoperly people will choose to do the lnaguage. What are you scared of if it becomes optional?

Mr. Bean.

Violafy wrote: »

Are you being sarcastic? :rolleyes: If not... They dare suggest it because Irish is possibly the least relevant and useful subject on the curriculum at the moment, in terms of needing it after leaving school. Maybe English is compulsory because it's the language everybody speaks? And you're living in the dark ages if you think English is only the second language of this country.

Currently as it stands english is still the second language of this country so no i'm not living in the dark ages. Look at article 8 of our consitution:

Article 8
1. The Irish language as the national language is the first official language.
2. The English language is recognised as a second official language.

Violafy wrote: »

Maybe English is compulsory because it's the language everybody speaks?

Very selective and totally untrue... You may have forgotten but theres a few gaeltachts in the country.

Violafy wrote: »

the least relevant and useful subject on the curriculum at the moment

Pure matter of opinion. In my opinion it's very much relevant. I think its ridiculous that Irish people from Ireland speak english! :rolleyes:

Ian_K

Ikky Poo2 wrote: »

It#s all vey well YOU ebing proud of it, but if you classmate isn't why do you get the power to choose for him?

"Pride", "cluture" and "identity" are just buzzwordsl. They mean completly different thigns to different people. You can't conform people to your standards in a free country.

Update the course all you want, but if you do it peoperly people will choose to do the lnaguage. What are you scared of if it becomes optional?

Im well aware of what will happen if it becomes optional, i'd say 90% of students wouldnt take irish, if i was looking to maximise my points i wouldnt be taking it myself!

Its not unlikely either that there will be school out there where ZERO students choose to do irish, the next year the school will probably decide not to offer irish at all because it wouldnt be viable employing a teacher to teach such small classes, then even the students that do want to study irish dont have the option to!

All of a sudden its ten years later and no school outside the Gaeltacht is offering leaving cert irish and sooner or later its dead altogether

WolfForager

Mr. Bean. wrote: »

Currently as it stands english is still the second language of this country so no i'm not living in the dark ages. Look at article 8 of our consitution:

The constitution? Please don't quote that outdated piece of drivel, lends less credibility to your argument tbh.

Mr. Bean. wrote: »

Pure matter of opinion. In my opinion it's very much relevant. I think its ridiculous that Irish people from Ireland speak english! :rolleyes:

We speak english because it is the second most common language in the world and the number one language in the international markets. Why would a country of 4 million people speak a language that no one else speak? Doesn't make sense when we rely on the rest of the world to survive.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Ian_K wrote: »

Im well aware of what will happen if it becomes optional, i'd say 90% of students wouldnt take irish, if i was looking to maximise my points i wouldnt be taking it myself!

Its not unlikely either that there will be school out there where ZERO students choose to do irish, the next year the school will probably decide not to offer irish at all because it wouldnt be viable employing a teacher to teach such small classes, then even the students that do want to study irish dont have the option to!

All of a sudden its ten years later and no school outside the Gaeltacht is offering leaving cert irish and sooner or later its dead altogether

....and?

A lot of people would see this as a good thing. Why do you think it important to FORCE something on other people, so YOU can feel proud?

Krusader

Ikky Poo2 wrote: »

....and?

A lot of people would see this as a good thing. Why do you think it important to FORCE something on other people, so YOU can feel proud?

They majority of the population wouldn't see it as a good thing, you and your ilk are in a minority in this country, buíochas le Dia

ftnbase

Mr. Bean. wrote: »

Very selective and totally untrue... You may have forgotten but theres a few gaeltachts in the country.

I do not believe that the statement you were referring to is totally untrue - look at Claregalway, Moycullen, Carrick, Dungloe, Fanad Peninsula as examples. I would guess that less than 10% of the population in these places speak Irish as their first language based on my personal observations.

There are Gaeltachts where Irish is certainly the first language among the older population but stand outside a school at playtime or listen to the children walking to town at lunchtime and you will see that the future holds.



SIMPLE FACT IS - Young people do not speak Irish to each other

Ian_K

Ikky Poo2 wrote: »

....and?

A lot of people would see this as a good thing. Why do you think it important to FORCE something on other people, so YOU can feel proud?

You honestly want to see the irish language dead and gone? The only thing that makes us any different from the english or the americans? The only thing we have to remind us of times when we were identifiable from the rest?

This genuinely makes me sad, i dont care if i get banned for this but you are a disgrace

twinQuins

Crosáidí wrote: »

They majority of the population wouldn't see it as a good thing

Do you have proof of this?

ftnbase

Crosáidí wrote: »

They majority of the population wouldn't see it as a good thing, you and your ilk are in a minority in this country, buíochas le Dia

Now sure are you of this? Do you have any stats to back up your assertion.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Crosáidí wrote: »

They majority of the population wouldn't see it as a good thing, you and your ilk are in a minority in this country, buíochas le Dia

My "ilk" being those who want to trust students and want to see them have reach their full capacities?

For ****s sake, all I want is to see people be allowed to choose for themselves rather than to have my word forced upon them. Sorry if it causes offense.

Mr. Bean.

tim9002 wrote: »

Fine Gael are not planning to scrap Irish. Their plan is to make it optional for the leaving cert. Big difference. Irish is the only compulsory subject on the leaving cert sylabus. Try and reasearch some facts before posting in future.

If you had of read my post correctly you would have seen that i wrote:

"How dare they even suggest for one minute, removing Irish, The first language of our country, as a compulsory subject...Especially if English, The second language of the state, will enjoy compulsory status."

tim9002 wrote: »

Irish is the only compulsory subject on the leaving cert sylabus.

This is incorrect also. English, Irish and Maths are mandatory. The only exception is Irish where candidates can seek an exemption if they qualify for various reasons (dyslexia, non Irish national etc.)

Please read more carefully, use your finger if you have to, and "Try and research some facts before posting in future."

WolfForager

Ian_K wrote: »

You honestly want to see the irish language dead and gone? The only thing that makes us any different from the english or the americans? The only thing we have to remind us of times when we were identifiable from the rest?

This genuinely makes me sad, i dont care if i get banned for this but you are a disgrace

What?

The americans and english don't have another language yet i can tell them apart quite easily, would be the same with us.

ftnbase

WolfForager wrote: »

What?

The americans and english don't have another language yet i can tell them apart quite easily, would be the same with us.

BRILLIANT LOL

Mr. Bean.

WolfForager wrote: »

We speak english because it is the second most common language in the world and the number one language in the international markets.

No, we speak english because we were forced to adpot it under british rule.
In an attempt to swing back to irish, (and it has come a long way), we have; the gaeltachts, TG4, Radio na life, and irish in the leaving cert.

Ian_K

WolfForager wrote: »

What?

The americans and english don't have another language yet i can tell them apart quite easily, would be the same with us.

Fair play, obviously we're talking about cultural and social values, about identity and individuality, not about bloody accents!!

WolfForager

Mr. Bean. wrote: »

No, we speak english because we were forced to adpot it under british rule.
In an attempt to swing back to irish, (and it has come a long way), we have; the gaeltachts, TG4, Radio na life, and irish in the leaving cert.

All by the state forcing us to, not for love of the language

twinQuins

Ian_K wrote: »

Fair play, obviously we're talking about cultural and social values, about identity and individuality, not about bloody accents!!

And yet the British and Americans maintain distinct cultures and identities despite speaking the same language.

Ian_K

twinQuins wrote: »

And yet the British and Americans maintain distinct cultures and identities despite speaking the same language.

And yet the distinction between them is undeniably reduced

Mr. Bean.

ftnbase wrote: »

SIMPLE FACT IS - Young people do not speak Irish to each other

Most of the people in this country aren't young (ie. 18 or under.)
We also can't ignore that 10% you refer to.

SIMPLE FACT IS - young people will not speak Irish if not taught it.

ftnbase

Mr. Bean. wrote: »

No, we speak english because we were forced to adpot it under british rule.
In an attempt to swing back to irish, (and it has come a long way), we have; the gaeltachts, TG4, Radio na life, and irish in the leaving cert.

Do not forget that the Irish language was much stronger when we were "under british rule".

I think TG4 and Radio na Life have added little to the revitilisation of the Irish language except mayme for those lucky enough to work for them.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Ian_K wrote: »

You honestly want to see the irish language dead and gone? The only thing that makes us any different from the english or the americans? The only thing we have to remind us of times when we were identifiable from the rest?

This genuinely makes me sad, i dont care if i get banned for this but you are a disgrace

Oh, I'm completely on the fence. As I said, pride and culture are not universal and sometimes you will encounter people with different values to yourself. These opinoins anre neither more or less vlaid than yours.

I just have freedom of choice as being more important than my person values, whereas you don't.

Mr. Bean.

ftnbase wrote: »

I think TG4 and Radio na Life have added little to the revitilisation of the Irish language except mayme for those lucky enough to work for them.

Again, debatable. We had a good political debate in irish the other night. It's not as if it's not up to date with current issues.:D

Ian_K

Ikky Poo2 wrote: »

Oh, I'm completely on the fence. As I said, pride and culture are not universal and sometimes you will encounter people with different values to yourself. These opinoins anre neither more or less vlaid than yours.

I just have freedom of choice as being more important than my person values, whereas you don't.

Completely on the fence?? How can you be? You either value the language or you dont

twinQuins

Ian_K wrote: »

And yet the distinction between them is undeniably reduced

But they're still distinct. Is there some objective, qualitative point of difference that has to be reached?