Fine Gael policy to end compusory Irish till Leaving Cert

ftnbase

Mr. Bean. wrote: »

Most of the people in this country aren't young (ie. 18 or under.)
We also can't ignore that 10% you refer to.

SIMPLE FACT IS - young people will not speak Irish if not taught it.

We are discussing the abolition of Irish as a compulsory subject.

Most of the people doing the Leaving Cert are young (ie. 18 and under)

The 10% can do it if they want - what FG want to do is to make it OPTIONAL not abolish it.

SIMPLE FACT IS - Young people (teenagers) who have been rared with Irish from the "cliabhán" (cot) do not speak it to each other socially. Listen to them. Teaching it to them , as you suggest, will not make them speak it.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Ian_K wrote: »

Completely on the fence?? How can you be? You either value the language or you dont

Of course I can be! If it survives... meh. If it doesn't... meh.

I've said my piece and I'm going out. Why is it so hard to accept that other people have different values to you?

G'night!

Iwasfrozen

Mr. Bean. wrote: »

Most of the people in this country aren't young (ie. 18 or under.)
We also can't ignore that 10% you refer to.

SIMPLE FACT IS - young people will not speak Irish if not taught it.

SIMPLE FACT IS - young people will not speak Irish even if they are taught it. We know this from experience.

iguana

Crosáidí wrote: »

They majority of the population wouldn't see it as a good thing, you and your ilk are in a minority in this country, buíochas le Dia

If that's how the majority feel then it won't die out. Why force a "minority" to do something they don't want to for no good reason.

Ian_K

iguana wrote: »

If that's how the majority feel then it won't die out. Why force a "minority" to do something they don't want to for no good reason.

At 14/15/16 i dont think many students would be in a proper position to decide whether or not to take irish, if i myself had the choice at that age i probably would have dropped it but three years later i am so glad that didnt happen

I would definetely have regretted dropping irish if i had the choice and i'm sure this will be the case for thousands more in the future if the change happens

twinQuins

Ian_K wrote: »

At 14/15/16 i dont think many students would be in a proper position to decide whether or not to take irish

Yet they're in a position to decide whether or not to take a host of other subjects.

I would definetely have regretted dropping irish if i had the choice and i'm sure this will be the case for thousands more in the future if the change happens

Some people make the wrong decisions when they're at that age but it doesn't mean they should all have the decision made for them.

Mr. Bean.

ftnbase wrote: »

The 10% can do it if they want - what FG want to do is to make it OPTIONAL not abolish it.

And Do you not think that it's very unfair on the students who somehow managed to cope doing Irish for the leaving cert.

It wouldn't be a level playing field at all if it were to be made optional.

Ian_K

twinQuins wrote: »

Yet they're in a position to decide whether or not to take a host of other subjects.

Some people make the wrong decisions when they're at that age but it doesn't mean they should all have the decision made for them.

I dont think you can make a properly informed decision about irish at that stage though, it's not a subject you would pick because of the points going for it or the enjoyment you get out of each and every class

You need to have grown up a bit and decided where your values and loyalties lie, maybe learned a bit more about history or whatever

twinQuins

Mr. Bean. wrote: »

And Do you not think that it's very unfair on the students who somehow managed to cope doing Irish for the leaving cert.

It wouldn't be a level playing field at all if it were to be made optional.

You could extend that logic to any of the optional subjects.

Ian_K wrote: »

I dont think you can make a properly informed decision about irish at that stage though, it's not a subject you would pick because of the points going for it or the enjoyment you get out of each and every class

People also choose subjects that are relevant to the area of study they wish to pursue in third level education too, you know. It's not all about points.

You need to have grown up a bit and decided where your values and loyalties lie

This sounds a little odd. Are you implying that if you're loyal to the country you'd take Irish and conversely if you're not you won't?

Ian_K

twinQuins wrote: »

People also choose subjects that are relevant to the area of study they wish to pursue in third level education too, you know. It's not all about points.

This sounds a little odd. Are you implying that if you're loyal to the country you'd take Irish and conversely if you're not you won't?

I'm actually doing my leaving cert this year so i'm well aware of why you would/wouldnt choose a particular subject, the point is you probably wouldnt choose to do irish as it currently stands unless you wanted to do primary teaching

Unfortunately, the only reason you would optionally study irish at the moment is out of national pride

ftnbase

Mr. Bean. wrote: »

And Do you not think that it's very unfair on the students who somehow managed to cope doing Irish for the leaving cert.

It wouldn't be a level playing field at all if it were to be made optional.

I do not understand what you claim to be unfair.

My view is that if we continue to force this language down the throats of our children, as you are suggesting, we will make sure a substantial majority of them will hate the langauge. I am lucky enough to be a fluent speaker (because we spoke it at home all the time when I was a child). My 10 year old daughter hates the language because she gets it force fed to her at school.

I wish my daughter could decide to choose Irish for her leaving cert rather than hating it for another two years.

twinQuins

So change the syllabus and make it optional. Honestly, I don't see what the kerfuffle is about.

aDeener

WolfForager wrote: »

What?

The americans and english don't have another language yet i can tell them apart quite easily, would be the same with us.

walking around campus in ucd i would find it very hard to distinguish between irish and americans

Ian_K

ftnbase wrote: »

I do not understand what you claim to be unfair.

My view is that if we continue to force this language down the throats of our children, as you are suggesting, we will make sure a substantial majority of them will hate the langauge. I am lucky enough to be a fluent speaker (because we spoke it at home all the time when I was a child). My 10 year old daughter hates the language because she gets it force fed to her at school.

I wish my daughter could decide to choose Irish for her leaving cert rather than hating it for another two years.

This is the problem though, she would choose not to do it because of the way it is thought - not because she hates the language

If it was taught properly then we wouldnt have cases like this

ftnbase

Ian_K wrote: »

This is the problem though, she would choose not to do it because of the way it is thought - not because she hates the language

If it was taught properly then we wouldnt have cases like this

I agree.
But would it not be better to focus on the teaching at primary level and make optional at leaving cert level so that the resources currently being used to teach those who will never learn the language in the 2 years between junior and leaving cert will have a chance to learn it at primary level.

Violafy

Ian_K wrote: »

At 14/15/16 i dont think many students would be in a proper position to decide whether or not to take irish, if i myself had the choice at that age i probably would have dropped it but three years later i am so glad that didnt happen

I would definetely have regretted dropping irish if i had the choice and i'm sure this will be the case for thousands more in the future if the change happens

If people regret it that much, they can easily do evening classes or something to learn Irish again. There's still absolutely no need for it to remain compulsory!

iguana

Ian_K wrote: »

At 14/15/16 i dont think many students would be in a proper position to decide whether or not to take irish, if i myself had the choice at that age i probably would have dropped it but three years later i am so glad that didnt happen

I would definetely have regretted dropping irish if i had the choice and i'm sure this will be the case for thousands more in the future if the change happens

So? It's not like the learning police come and forbid you from learning things as an adult. I dropped all science subjects for the LC but in my late 20s I rediscovered/developed interests in several fields of science and set about learning them. Now I'm pretty well educated about certain sciences, much more so than many people who took a science subject for the LC, but only because I chose to learn it. However I'm very, very glad I wasn't forced to take on one of those subjects for LC. I had particular goals back then and science didn't figure among them.

I also did German up to the LC but left school barely able to string anything but the most basic of sentences together. (Ich habe blaue augen und braune haare.) But recently I downloaded a conversational German course onto my ipod, play it when I walk the dogs, with a goal of being able to watch my very favourite movie, Goodbye Lenin, with the subtitles switched off. If I keep it up I suspect I'll have better German due to a few months interest in the language than I did from 5 years of compulsory classes.

NotExactly

iguana wrote: »

But recently I downloaded a conversational German course onto my ipod,

What is the name of this course? Can you get it for French? Thanks.

iguana

NotExactly wrote: »

What is the name of this course? Can you get it for French? Thanks.

I'm using one called Warum Nicht (Why Not) so I'm not sure if it has a French equivalent. Maybe something like the free Collins conversational French download would be a good place to start?
http://www.collinslanguage.com/extras/resources/easy-conversation/Default.aspx

Dionysus

WolfForager wrote: »

We speak english because it is the second most common language in the world

That's not how it happened at all, at all.

WolfForager

Dionysus wrote: »

That's not how it happened at all, at all.

Well of course, but it's the reason why 90% of the population couldn't be bothered learning irish now, which is what i meant

galwayrush

If most people who are forced to do it for the LC don't use it afterwards, is making it an option going to make any difference in the number of people who actually use it.

KeithAFC

galwayrush wrote: »

If most people who are forced to do it for the LC don't use it afterwards, is making it an option going to make any difference in the number of people who actually use it.

Good point. I hope the people being forced to learn the language will soon get the freedom they deserve.

aDeener

KeithAFC wrote: »

Good point. I hope the people being forced to learn the language will soon get the freedom they deserve.

would you ever just go away?

Cú Giobach

KeithAFC wrote: »

Good point. I hope the people being forced to learn the language will soon get the freedom they deserve.

Someday Kieth on the list of Belfast schools we'll see "Gaelscoil Bóthar an Seanchill". :cool:

Wibbs

Mr. Bean. wrote: »

Currently as it stands english is still the second language of this country so no i'm not living in the dark ages. Look at article 8 of our consitution:

Oh you are having a laugh. So if I write in my CV I'm fluent in Uzbek that makes it so? Eh no. That part of the constitution is an aspiration, not the reality. It has declined since that constitution was signed off, never mind beforehand.

Very selective and totally untrue... You may have forgotten but theres a few gaeltachts in the country.

Yes there are. I'm quite a regular visitor to some of them in the Wesht and have been for nigh on 30 years. I could count the amount of times I heard Irish spoken on the fingers of one hand after an unfortunate incident with a food blender. The first time I holidayed in Northern Spain I heard more Basque in 5 days than I have heard Irish outside of school in my entire life. Like I say it's not as if I've been a stranger to Gaeltachts. I conducted a straw poll on this with various mates and some had heard a small bit of Irish in the wild as it were, others never had.

Pure matter of opinion. In my opinion it's very much relevant. I think its ridiculous that Irish people from Ireland speak english! :rolleyes:

OK lets examine that your opinion. Which "Irish" people do you mean? Which "Ireland". Our country small as it is has never been one homogenised thing. Like I pointed out earlier in the thread if your family have lived in one of the urban centres for a few generations, chances are very very high they didn't have Irish. If they were a long time in such places they may have had more old English. Hiberno English retains a few words of it to this day. Which English do you mean? We're more likely to speak american than british. I'd put good money 2/3rds would write "Jail" rather than "Gaol". It's a lot more complex. Hey lets look at the English. If you stretch the centuries, they could claim it was ridiculous that they who are similar "Celtic" peoples as us who spoke "celtic" languages now speak a germano dutch mongrel and are presided over by similar. Hell they're called English after a tiny group who showed up and left feck all in the DNA beyond east Anglia. The highland and island scots might find it ridiculous that Scots people from Scotland are named after the Irish and speak Irish Gaelic and Germano Dutch. The whole thing is kinda ridiculous if you step back far enough.

twinQuins wrote: »

Do you have proof of this?

ftnbase wrote: »

Now sure are you of this? Do you have any stats to back up your assertion.

Nope they never do.

Ian_K wrote: »

Completely on the fence?? How can you be? You either value the language or you dont

Ahh the black and white thinking of youth.

You need to have grown up a bit and decided where your values and loyalties lie, maybe learned a bit more about history or whatever

Hmmm I sniff the "oh you're not really Irish if ___________". Fill in the blanks with your own personal angle.

Dionysus wrote: »

That's not how it happened at all, at all.

I agree, but so what? The English themselves didn't find english under a stone either. The first four post Saxon kings of england couldn't speak a word of it. You know Robin Hood and the king he waits for, Richard the Lionheart? That so english of kings? He couldnt speak a word of it, beyond hello and thanks. Never bothered his arse to learn. The Aztecs, Incas and the like didn't find the oul Spanish under a rock either. French, Spanish, Italian, Romanian and a shedload* of others got their tongue from when a bunch of Italians got a bit previous with swords and the like. It's the nature of these things.






*actual unit of measurement believe it or not....

Wibbs

Cú Giobach wrote: »

Someday Kieth on the list of Belfast schools we'll see "Gaelscoil Bóthar an Seanchill". :cool:

And on a shop window on the Falls "Ulster Scots spoken here".

galwayrush

There are or at least were probably more Polish speaking people than Irish speakers in the country the past few years, i hope Polish does not become compulsary for the L.C. Portugese would probably have been more use in schools around Gort in Galway.

lmaopml

Well it's very simple with me. I think there are 'core' subjects that most students find 'difficult'.....It actually shows a 'lot' of character to excel in something you find difficult, and perseverence has it's own 'value' in the working world....as far as 'any' of the core subjects are concerned - in particular 'mathematics' and 'irish'....

I can't see the benefit of changing the status of the Irish language, but I can see it being more resigned...which imo is really just resigning ourselves to 'grey who are we anyway'dom'...

In particular because 'English' is a 'core' subject.....should it be optional too?

Do other nations make their native tongue 'optional', would they even contemplate such a thing?

I agree on several points on the thread as regards a review and revival of the love of 'languages' in students...

I remember meeting a thirteen year old in Amsterdam who wanted to ask some questions - she went from Swedish, to German to Dutch she was so enthusiastic - eventually we said we spoke English and there she was speaking that too......

...if nothing else than 'that' is something to aim towards...'Irish' would be a footnote if it were 'compulsory' ....AND, if we were able to achieve results as far as language is concerned like that kid.....necessity and all that stuff!

We don't do too good with our adopted 'native' English here....don't mind Irish...

...radical thinking is necessary, not simplistic solutions like making Irish 'optional'......that's a short cut if ever I heard one!

deise go deo

Wibbs wrote: »

And on a shop window on the Falls "Ulster Scots spoken here".

I wouldn't be at all surprised, Ulster Scots is spoken in both communities, peoples political stance seams to have no bearing on how likely someone is to speak it, As for a sign though, that would be somewhat like a sign in Foxrock saying D4 spoken here.

Yes there are. I'm quite a regular visitor to some of them in the Wesht and have been for nigh on 30 years. I could count the amount of times I heard Irish spoken on the fingers of one hand after an unfortunate incident with a food blender. The first time I holidayed in Northern Spain I heard more Basque in 5 days than I have heard Irish outside of school in my entire life. Like I say it's not as if I've been a stranger to Gaeltachts. I conducted a straw poll on this with various mates and some had heard a small bit of Irish in the wild as it were, others never had.

Do you hide from Irish when your there(And you being you, I wouldn't be surprised)

I have visited the Gaelthacht several times, I have yet to meet someone there who couldn't speak Irish.
Maybe people there just know you by now and realize they are better off dropping the native tongue while your about.:pac:

kowloon

It annoys me when people talk about Irish as being the only culture we have left.
Our history is part of our culture, a far more important part than a language. Irish histiry has as much a right to being compulsory as the language.

On the other hand, perhaps we should let people do what they want and not hold back people who want to do science, engineering etc. in college because they haven't a good enough knowledge of a sublect irrelevant to their plans.

Propping it up for years has failed miserably, let those with genuine enthusiasm carry it into the future.

Wibbs

lmaopml wrote: »

Do other nations make their native tongue 'optional', would they even contemplate such a thing?

No, because..eh, those nations can actually speak their native tongue and do so on a daily basis. Spanish people can speak Spanish(and they've got some language complexity goin on). Check. Dutch people can speak Dutch? Check. Italians speak Italian? Check. Swedish can speak Swedish? Check? German speak German? Check. French speak French? Check. Irish speak....... Oh wait. Well it's confusing and complex. We were held back by imperialism you know. We love our language so deeply. So very deeply. It's part of us, down to the marrow. Can we speak it? well...... yea.... *looks at feet* yea some can. How many? Oh tens of thousands can. Yea... OK that's out of 5 million... But IT'S OUR CULTURE DAMMIT!!". Native tongue, my arse.

We don't do too good with our adopted 'native' English here....don't mind Irish...

Maybe you don't, indeed more than maybe, but you should have a squint around at the Irish authors and poets that have transformed how english is written and perceived on the worldwide stage. Our influence has been immense. Another one on this thread that needs to read more.

deise go deo wrote: »

I wouldn't be at all surprised, Ulster Scots is spoken in both communities, peoples political stance seams to have no bearing on how likely someone is to speak it, As for a sign though, that would be somewhat like a sign in Foxrock saying D4 spoken here.

Actually lets face it "Ulster Scots" is an even bigger "cultural" stick to beat people with. It's mostly bollocks. "Aye lets speak english with the daftest norn iron accent we can muster, with some Rabbie Burnz thrown in".

Do you hide from Irish when your there(And you being you, I wouldn't be surprised)

Oh me being me eh? Yea good luck with that projection. You mght be surprised.

I have visited the Gaelthacht several times, I have yet to meet someone there who couldn't speak Irish.

No really. Now you're just taking the piss. Though I suppose it depends which one. There are more than one you know. I've been visting and living in Gaelthact areas for decades and i can line up many who haven't even a cupla focal.

Maybe people there just know you by now and realize they are better off dropping the native tongue while your about.:pac:

Entirely possible. My biz card printed with "Bogger chucky/orange language nazi exterminator champion 1985-1998(will euthanise ardent Catholics and wee free Presbyterians for a small extra fee(not inc VAT, nor balaclava or sash disposal) " probably puts them right off.

lmaopml

kowloon wrote: »

It annoys me when people talk about Irish as being the only culture we have left.
Our history is part of our culture, a far more important part than a language. Irish histiry has as much a right to being compulsory as the language.

On the other hand, perhaps we should let people do what they want and not hold back people who want to do science, engineering etc. in college because they haven't a good enough knowledge of a sublect irrelevant to their plans.

Propping it up for years has failed miserably, let those with genuine enthusiasm carry it into the future.

I don't think a solitary person said that it is the 'only culture we have left..'.

'Irish histiry [sic]', is taught already in schools along with european etc. etc. History is a core subject to junior cert!

"On the other hand, perhaps we should let people do what they want and not hold back people who want to do science, engineering etc. in college"

There is absolutely no prohibition on choosing a science or multiple science subjects at LC level. Quite frankly - science subjects are encouraged and excuses for not choosing them cry 'scared' tbh..As long as the 'system' challenges students in every area then we should be happy - as soon as it starts 'accomodating' a lower level than we worry! I have two kids, I certainly want them challenged - even with stuff they don't particularly 'like'....

That's life!

lmaopml

Wibbs wrote: »

No, because..eh, those nations can actually speak their native tongue and do so on a daily basis. Spanish people can speak Spanish(and they've got some language complexity goin on). Check. Dutch people can speak Dutch? Check. Italians speak Italian? Check. Swedish can speak Swedish? Check? German speak German? Check. French speak French? Check. Irish speak....... Oh wait. Well it's confusing and complex. We were held back by imperialism you know. We love our language so deeply. So very deeply. It's part of us, down to the marrow. Can we speak it? well...... yea.... *looks at feet* yea some can. How many? Oh tens of thousands can. Yea... OK that's out of 5 million... But IT'S OUR CULTURE DAMMIT!!". Native tongue, my (lol sorry delete key went too far )...

LOL wibbs, I still don't see the reason 'why' it shouldn't be core subject - it's a learning curve, you don't as a 'student' excel in 'everything' and that's ok in my book, there is a lot more to learning the irish language than speaking it fluently....There is a 'value' whether spanish people speak spanish etc. etc. or no..

There is a principle and a learning curve along with the language that can only be understood 'through' the language - it's not 'political' it's imo aesthetic..and very very 'valuable'.

..but 'language' should always start with English and Irish in Ireland - that's what we speak...

Fair play to Spanish people speaking 'spanish', and French people speaking 'French' etc.

If a student excels in languages than Irish is the start of that love lest we forget...?

kowloon

lmaopml wrote: »

I don't think a solitary person said that it is the 'only culture we have left..'.

'Irish histiry [sic]', is taught already in schools along with european etc. etc. History is a core subject to junior cert!

"On the other hand, perhaps we should let people do what they want and not hold back people who want to do science, engineering etc. in college"

There is absolutely no prohibition on choosing a science or multiple science subjects at LC level. Quite frankly - science subjects are encouraged and excuses for not choosing them cry 'scared' tbh..As long as the 'system' challenges students in every area then we should be happy - as soon as it starts 'accomodating' a lower level than we worry! I have two kids, I certainly want them challenged - even with stuff they don't particularly 'like'....

That's life!

I may have read the part about it being the only culture we have left on another thread, it has been saide though.

I'm not saying school children should be picking their own subjects from the beginning, but for leaving cert you should be allowed do what you want and what you can excel at. For the same reasons I don't see why someone who wants to study languages should have to lose out for not being good at maths or a science subject.

The whole system is rubbish and needs to be fixed.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

lmaopml wrote: »

Well it's very simple with me. I think there are 'core' subjects that most students find 'difficult'.....It actually shows a 'lot' of character to excel in something you find difficult, and perseverence has it's own 'value' in the working world....as far as 'any' of the core subjects are concerned - in particular 'mathematics' and 'irish'....

I can't see the benefit of changing the status of the Irish language, but I can see it being more resigned...which imo is really just resigning ourselves to 'grey who are we anyway'dom'...

In particular because 'English' is a 'core' subject.....should it be optional too?

Do other nations make their native tongue 'optional', would they even contemplate such a thing?

I agree on several points on the thread as regards a review and revival of the love of 'languages' in students...

I remember meeting a thirteen year old in Amsterdam who wanted to ask some questions - she went from Swedish, to German to Dutch she was so enthusiastic - eventually we said we spoke English and there she was speaking that too......

...if nothing else than 'that' is something to aim towards...'Irish' would be a footnote if it were 'compulsory' ....AND, if we were able to achieve results as far as language is concerned like that kid.....necessity and all that stuff!

We don't do too good with our adopted 'native' English here....don't mind Irish...

...radical thinking is necessary, not simplistic solutions like making Irish 'optional'......that's a short cut if ever I heard one!

A lot of 'inverted' commas in thsis post.

Perhaps it shows a 'lot' of charcter to say, "no - I don't want to do this. I respect it, but it's not for me".

Of course English should be optional too. As should Maths. And religion. And everything else. As I said before, forcing someone to do something to make YOU feel better, is just selfish. If the majority like Irish, as is being maintained by the Gaelgiogi, then what do you have to fear by making it optional? If they do not, then why force the majority to do soemthing they don't want to do?

The rest of your post has a lot of dots ... and is very ... difficult to... follow.
It reads as if you are switching from one point to another without actually saying anything cohesive.

lmaopml wrote: »

I don't think a solitary person said that it is the 'only culture we have left..'.

'Irish histiry [sic]', is taught already in schools along with european etc. etc. History is a core subject to junior cert!

"On the other hand, perhaps we should let people do what they want and not hold back people who want to do science, engineering etc. in college"

There is absolutely no prohibition on choosing a science or multiple science subjects at LC level. Quite frankly - science subjects are encouraged and excuses for not choosing them cry 'scared' tbh..As long as the 'system' challenges students in every area then we should be happy - as soon as it starts 'accomodating' a lower level than we worry! I have two kids, I certainly want them challenged - even with stuff they don't particularly 'like'....

That's life!

But no one says "thou shalt do Biology" - they let you choose what science subjects you want. In the same way, people should be allowed to choose what languages they want.

Why is "that's life" a conclusion when there are other solutions? Have you investigated the pros and cons of other methods, or are you hell bent on forcing people to do something to make YOU feel validated?

lmaopml wrote: »

LOL wibbs, I still don't see the reason 'why' it shouldn't be core subject - it's a learning curve, you don't as a 'student' excel in 'everything' and that's ok in my book, there is a lot more to learning the irish language than speaking it fluently....There is a 'value' whether spanish people speak spanish etc. etc. or no..

There is a principle and a learning curve along with the language that can only be understood 'through' the language - it's not 'political' it's imo aesthetic..and very very 'valuable'.

..but 'language' should always start with English and Irish in Ireland - that's what we speak...

Fair play to Spanish people speaking 'spanish', and French people speaking 'French' etc.

If a student excels in languages than Irish is the start of that love lest we forget...?

Again, what is with the 'inverted comas'? And the disjointed sentences?
Irish is the start of what YOU love. Lest YOU forget. You viewpoint as I understand it, that learnign Irish is a positve experience, is valid; BUT not everyone holds this viewpoint. People have the right to disagree with you and choose other values. Why, again, is this so hard to understand??

taibhse

Irish is our cultural heritage and to dismiss that and to make the language optional because it's "hard" or it's "not useful" is throwing the baby out with the bathwater. If you were to go to Holland, Sweden, Denmark, Finland etc, where there are very high levels of English literacy would it be argued sure why do they bother speaking their own languages, they speak english sure isn't that more useful. They speak the languages simply because they are their own languages, it's not based on a utilitarian value system. A language is part of who a people are as a country and as a culture. The system should be overhauled, with a focus on getting people speaking the language on an everyday basis, not just in schools but in everyday life. It's our language and to simply dismiss it because we speak English is a simplistic and defeatist attitude. Think it James Joyce who said "A country without a language is a country without a soul"

ftnbase

taibhse wrote: »

If you were to go to Holland, Sweden, Denmark, Finland etc, where there are very high levels of English literacy would it be argued sure why do they bother speaking their own languages, they speak english sure isn't that more useful. They speak the languages simply because they are their own languages, it's not based on a utilitarian value system.

I think the big difference is that in Holland, Sweden, Denmark, Finland their own languages are truly living first languages. Irish is different - it is, for most people, a second language taught in schools rather than learned by osmosis by babies in their homes from their parents.

I doubt if the language will be saved from extinction by the amount learned in the Leaving Cert 2 years. Those who are genuinely passionate about the survival of the langauge (and there are some who have great ideas) need to raise the voices above those who have driven by financial interests.

taibhse wrote: »

The system should be overhauled, with a focus on getting people speaking the language on an everyday basis, not just in schools but in everyday life.

I could not agree more - but as I said above what effect will the two Leaving Cert years have on this? IMO there will be more people who hate the language more at the end of that period that there will be people who have learned anything of value.

As I see it if someone has not mastered conversational irish by 16 years (after 11/12 years of being taught) the LC 2 years will not make a blind bit of difference.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

taibhse wrote: »

Irish is our cultural heritage and to dismiss that and to make the language optional because it's "hard" or it's "not useful" is throwing the baby out with the bathwater. If you were to go to Holland, Sweden, Denmark, Finland etc, where there are very high levels of English literacy would it be argued sure why do they bother speaking their own languages, they speak english sure isn't that more useful. They speak the languages simply because they are their own languages, it's not based on a utilitarian value system. A language is part of who a people are as a country and as a culture. The system should be overhauled, with a focus on getting people speaking the language on an everyday basis, not just in schools but in everyday life. It's our language and to simply dismiss it because we speak English is a simplistic and defeatist attitude. Think it James Joyce who said "A country without a language is a country without a soul"

Again, buzzwords. "cultural heritage". Might be yours, it's not mine.

The Scandanavian thing is simply down to history. They were never invaded by a nation that spoke a completely different langauge.

A country can be a country with or without a soul, but what about the individual? Said individuals in this country has the right to refrain or abstain from a certain activity if he or she chooses. If they want to devote more time to learn a different language that they feel is more practical, then why do you feel you have the right to block them?

This is not dismissing the Irish language. Its simply pointing out that values differ but rights are equal which seems to be the rock some people can't bypass. You can change the system all you like, but unless you get people enthusiastic and wanting to choose it, you're wasting your time; and you will not get people enthusiastic about it by forcing the issue and forcing them to spend less time on more practical issues, especially when studying for university courses. How do you think it will?

Mr. Bean.

ftnbase wrote: »

I do not understand what you claim to be unfair.

What I claim to be unfair is the fact that people who have done compulsory Irish had to do it, whether or not they were strong or weak at it.... Possibly to the detriment of their calculated points. What's unfair is, if Fine Gael bring in this ridiculous policy, people who don't have to do Irish will have an unfair advantage over those that did.

You could extend that logic to any of the optional subjects.

That is the stupidest response I've ever heard. How could you apply that to the optional subjects if they're optional? :rolleyes:The unfairness is the fact that people who will not have to do Irish will have an unfair advantage over those that did, with regard to points.

galwayrush

Now, let's see if we can get 53 pages of debate as gaelgie......:D

iguana

Mr. Bean. wrote: »

Possibly to the detriment of their calculated points. What's unfair is, if Fine Gael bring in this ridiculous policy, people who don't have to do Irish will have an unfair advantage over those that did.

Too right. I also suggest we ban antibiotics for infected wounds because of how unfair it is on all those who had to make do with bread poultices 90 years ago.

Mike 1972

Mr. Bean. wrote: »

What I claim to be unfair is the fact that people who have done compulsory Irish had to do it, whether or not they were strong or weak at it.... Possibly to the detriment of their calculated points. What's unfair is, if Fine Gael bring in this ridiculous policy, people who don't have to do Irish will have an unfair advantage over those that did.

Third level admission policies for mature students are not points based.

ftnbase

Mr. Bean. wrote: »

What I claim to be unfair is the fact that people who have done compulsory Irish had to do it, whether or not they were strong or weak at it.... Possibly to the detriment of their calculated points. What's unfair is, if Fine Gael bring in this ridiculous policy, people who don't have to do Irish will have an unfair advantage over those that did.

What unfair advantage? How will something which happened a number of years ago place someone at a disadvantage when compared to something which may happen in the future.

Mike 1972

ftnbase wrote: »

What unfair advantage? How will something which happened a number of years ago place someone at a disadvantage when compared to something which may happen in the future.

They should never have abolished slavery. It just gave the blacks who were born subsequently an unfair advantage ????

Gaeilge?

Ó mo Dhia!! This is such an awful idea, make Irish optional for the Leaving Cert - they didn't even put any thought into it. Why would they do this? They actually might as well just go up to everyone in the country who likes Irish and stab them in the heart (not that I'm condoning violence, just getting my point across that this is an insane idea). Please do not vote for Fine Gael if you disagree with their policy on the Irish language! (I can't vote, so unfortunately I can't vote against them yet.)

What actually needs to be done is change the way Irish is taught, it needs to be spoken in class as much as possible, and taught through Irish fully as soon as possible. And to save a bit of money for the economy, sack those teachers who can't speak Irish, they're killing the language. I had a teacher last year for honours Irish, and she did pass Irish for her Leaving Cert. Half of her notes were borrowed from the teacher of the pass class, and in her original notes about 95% of the sentences began with "tá" or "bhí". I actually got worse at Irish last year, she was that bad. And even though Irish is my favourite subject by far, she made me hate that class. Thanks be to jaysus that she left before we all failed. Worst teacher I've ever had in my life. :mad:

Aodan83 wrote: »

The LC higher paper has as much, if not more, poetry on it than the higher English paper.

What is your source for this? This is the most ridiculous thing I've heard recently, aside from Fine Gael's policy on the Irish language, and the idea of them getting a majority vote (I'm not denying that they'll get a majority, just stating my opinion that this is ridiculous). I'm doing my Leaving Cert this year, and I'm doing 5 pass poems and 8 honours poems. Despite the fact that I'm doing pass Maths, I think I'm right in saying that adds up to 13. I'm also doing honours English, and we're doing between 30 and 36 poems. Is that not slightly more than 13?? Or should I start getting Maths grinds?

iguana

Gaeilge? wrote: »

They actually might as well just go up to everyone in the country who likes Irish and stab them in the heart (not that I'm condoning violence, just getting my point across that this is an insane idea).

Hyperbolise much? I love history but not only is it not compulsory for the Leaving Cert, but many of my favourite periods aren't even on the LC course!:eek:

Yet I lived.:cool:

Gaeilge?

iguana wrote: »

Hyperbolise much? I love history but not only is it not compulsory for the Leaving Cert, but many of my favourite periods aren't even on the LC course!:eek:

Yet I lived.:cool:

Yeah, I realised I was exaggerating a tad but sure what the hey. Same here, which is why I don't like History half as much as I thought I would before I went into 4th Year.

galwayrush

This thread is starting to get very silly now, it's merely proposed not to have Irish as a compulsary subject in the leaving cert,it will be still available as a choice. The more fanatical lovers of the language see this as the death of the subject because apparently everyone should be forced to learn it.
If it was taught properly it might be more interesting and less of a chore.One of my kids thinks it's a waste of time and she's only 12, she thinks it would be better to be taught a European language as she feels it would be more useful. I am not against the language, i have another daughter who loves it and seems to be doing quite well with it as a subject. I think it would be fantastic if they had the choice when it comes to the LC.

galwayrush

sarahisainmdom wrote: »

It's obviously going to do a lot of harm to the language, but I doubt that the "fanatical lovers" of Irish think that it is being thought well at the moment. I certainly don't.

Agree, that way it was and is being taught is pretty poor. I still can't see how having it as an option will hurt it in any way. Maybe i'm wrong, but i don't see the vast majority of people using the language in any way despite having studied it for an average of 12-13 years. By the same token i don't see the number of people who use it dropping because students will have a choice of not taking it for the last 2 years of the primary to secondary school cycle.