Fine Gael policy to end compusory Irish till Leaving Cert

Violafy

Gaeilge? wrote: »

Ó mo Dhia!! This is such an awful idea, make Irish optional for the Leaving Cert - they didn't even put any thought into it. Why would they do this?

Because not everyone wants to learn/speak Irish?

[/QUOTE]They actually might as well just go up to everyone in the country who likes Irish and stab them in the heart (not that I'm condoning violence, just getting my point across that this is an insane idea). [/QUOTE]

No, as it'd be OPTIONAL, not taken away completely. Anyone who likes Irish can still speak it to eachother without forcing it on those who'd prefer to speak English only.


[/QUOTE]Irish is a legend of a language!! It actually makes me happy to just speak it, but I never really get a chance to, not even in Irish class.[/QUOTE]

I'm glad it makes you happy, but it doesn't make everyone happy. You can be happy by speaking Irish to those who want to.

Donal Og O Baelach

Gaeilge? wrote: »

What actually needs to be done is change the way Irish is thought,

sarahisainmdom wrote: »

It's obviously going to do a lot of harm to the language, but I doubt that the "fanatical lovers" of Irish think that it is being thought well at the moment. I certainly don't.

You both seem to have the same unusual way of spelling taught - and thats all I am saying...

galwayrush

Donal Og O Baelach wrote: »

You both seem to have the same unusual way of spelling taught - and thats all I am saying...

Perhaps they are are the thought police.:D

Sparky_Larks

why should any subject be compulsory. Let universities set their matriculation requirements.

So what if the Irish language is part of our heritage, so are lots of other things not thought in school.

If the Irish language is strong enough to survive then it will, irrespective of whether it is done for the leaving cert.

Violafy

Donal Og O Baelach wrote: »

You both seem to have the same unusual way of spelling taught - and thats all I am saying...

I'm sure they both know how to spell it correctly as gaeilge.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Gaeilge? wrote: »

Ó mo Dhia!! This is such an awful idea, make Irish optional for the Leaving Cert - they didn't even put any thought into it. Why would they do this? They actually might as well just go up to everyone in the country who likes Irish and stab them in the heart (not that I'm condoning violence, just getting my point across that this is an insane idea). Please do not vote for Fine Gael if you disagree with their policy on the Irish language! (I can't vote, so unfortunately I can't vote against them yet.)

What actually needs to be done is change the way Irish is taught, it needs to be spoken in class as much as possible, and taught through Irish fully as soon as possible. And to save a bit of money for the economy, sack those teachers who can't speak Irish, they're killing the language. I had a teacher last year for honours Irish, and she did pass Irish for her Leaving Cert. Half of her notes were borrowed from the teacher of the pass class, and in her original notes about 95% of the sentences began with "tá" or "bhí". I actually got worse at Irish last year, she was that bad. And even though Irish is my favourite subject by far, she made me hate that class. Thanks be to jaysus that she left before we all failed. Worst teacher I've ever had in my life. :mad:
Irish is a legend of a language!! It actually makes me happy to just speak it, but I never really get a chance to, not even in Irish class.





What is your source for this? This is the most ridiculous thing I've heard recently, aside from Fine Gael's policy on the Irish language, and the idea of them getting a majority vote (I'm not denying that they'll get a majority, just stating my opinion that this is ridiculous). I'm doing my Leaving Cert this year, and I'm doing 5 pass poems and 8 honours poems. Despite the fact that I'm doing pass Maths, I think I'm right in saying that adds up to 13. I'm also doing honours English, and we're doing between 30 and 36 poems. Is that not slightly more than 13?? Or should I start getting Maths grinds?

Sorry, but this is ridicuous. You would actually sack excellent inspirational teachers for not speaking Irish?

As for the rest of it, why not do both? Improve the course AND make it optional? If you do it right, people will want to take it.

I'm glad you enjoy your "legend" of a language, but are you aware of the fact that not everyone likes it as much? No one else has been able to asnwer me this, so perhaps you can: why should YOU have the right to tell other students what subjects they should do or not do?

Mr. Bean.

ftnbase wrote: »

What unfair advantage? How will something which happened a number of years ago place someone at a disadvantage when compared to something which may happen in the future.

There are many unemployed people (who had to do irish, and might not be good at it) seeking a job at the minute. People who won't have to do Irish will have an unfair advantage because it will be easier for them to achieve higher points in the leaving cert. They can play to their strengths. And as we all know, Points can be a deciding factor on your CV. Therefore, It's blatently unfair on those that were forced to do it, and hence it must be kept mandatory if it's to remain a level playing field.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Mr. Bean. wrote: »

There are many unemployed people (who had to do irish, and might not be good at it) seeking a job at the minute. People who won't have to do Irish will have an unfair advantage because it will be easier for them to achieve higher points in the leaving cert. They can play to their strengths. And as we all know, Points can be a deciding factor on your CV. Therefore, It's blatently unfair on those that were forced to do it, and hence it must be kept mandatory if it's to remain a level playing field.

Weak argument. They changed the A B C grades to A1 A2 A3 and so on with no problems. The LC timetable changed a year or so back and coursees are always evolving.

Also, since when is points a deciding factor when going for a job? They might look at grades, but employers do not sit down and try to calcualte points before hiring!

Mr. Bean.

Ikky Poo2 wrote: »

They might look at grades

Thank you for reinforcing my point.

Violafy

Mr. Bean. wrote: »

There are many unemployed people (who had to do irish, and might not be good at it) seeking a job at the minute. People who won't have to do Irish will have an unfair advantage because it will be easier for them to achieve higher points in the leaving cert. They can play to their strengths. And as we all know, Points can be a deciding factor on your CV. Therefore, It's blatently unfair on those that were forced to do it, and hence it must be kept mandatory if it's to remain a level playing field.

So we should keep Irish purely to make others suffer like we had to? Good idea. How dare the next generation be granted such a privilege when we had to suffer so much?

Ikky Poo2

Ikky Poo2 wrote: »

No one else has been able to asnwer me this, so perhaps you can: why should YOU have the right to tell other students what subjects they should do or not do?

/Awaits cultural/heritage spiel

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Mr. Bean. wrote: »

There are many unemployed people (who had to do irish, and might not be good at it) seeking a job at the minute. People who won't have to do Irish will have an unfair advantage because it will be easier for them to achieve higher points in the leaving cert. They can play to their strengths. And as we all know, Points can be a deciding factor on your CV. Therefore, It's blatently unfair on those that were forced to do it, and hence it must be kept mandatory if it's to remain a level playing field.

Ikky Poo2 wrote: »

Weak argument. They changed the A B C grades to A1 A2 A3 and so on with no problems. The LC timetable changed a year or so back and coursees are always evolving.

Also, since when is points a deciding factor when going for a job? They might look at grades, but employers do not sit down and try to calcualte points before hiring!

Mr. Bean. wrote: »

Thank you for reinforcing my point.

Thank you for selectively quoting me.

Mr. Bean.

iguana wrote: »

Too right. I also suggest we ban antibiotics for infected wounds because of how unfair it is on all those who had to make do with bread poultices 90 years ago.

I admire your sarcasm.

Please don't be condescending.

There is not going to be 90 years between some fella who does his leaving now say, and if FG bring in this policy in a couple of years. It's not unlikely that they'll be trying to get the same Job.

Mr. Bean.

Ikky Poo2 wrote: »

Thank you for selectively quoting me.

Your welcome, because I thought I'd only select the most true point of your post. And by the way, what are points derived from? Grades.

Snakeblood

Mr. Bean. wrote: »

I admire your sarcasm.

Please don't be condescending.

There is not going to be 90 years between some fella who does his leaving now say, and if FG bring in this policy in a couple of years. It's not unlikely that they'll be trying to get the same Job.

Things always have to change. If it wasn't Irish, it'd be the curriculum for science. A person who did science ten years ago, or even five, might have a very different syllabus than one who did it now. Should they keep it the same to make it fair?

Violafy

Mr. Bean. wrote: »

I admire your sarcasm.

Please don't be condescending.

There is not going to be 90 years between some fella who does his leaving now say, and if FG bring in this policy in a couple of years. It's not unlikely that they'll be trying to get the same Job.

Your argument doesn't even make sense, as Irish definitely doesn't get the worst results out of all of the LC subjects. I believe Maths has the highest fail rate (but feel free to correct me if I'm wrong).

And I don't see how that poster was being condescending, as by your logic, nothing should ever change because it would be unfair to the last person who had to suffer whatever it was that was being changed.




Although it *would* bring a certain satisfaction to see others learning their fascinating Irish poetry as I study exactly what I want in university. :pac: This is the only reason I can see for keeping Irish compulsory tbh.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Mr. Bean. wrote: »

Your welcome, because I thought I'd only select the most true point of your post. And by the way, what are points derived from? Grades.

Why are points being derived in the first place?

Deleted User wrote: »

/Awaits cultural/heritage spiel

As long as they preceed the words with "my" and not "our".

Mr. Bean.

Violafy wrote: »

Your argument doesn't even make sense, as Irish definitely doesn't get the worst results out of all of the LC subjects. I believe Maths has the highest fail rate (but feel free to correct me if I'm wrong).

And I don't see how that poster was being condescending, as by your logic, nothing should ever change because it would be unfair to the last person who had to suffer whatever it was that was being changed.




Although it *would* bring a certain satisfaction to see others learning their fascinating Irish poetry as I study exactly what I want in university. :pac: This is the only reason I can see for keeping Irish compulsory tbh.

Oh my god some people are so thick!

Because so many people cannot understand my argument consider this analogy:

Person A does his leaving cert this year, with mandatory Irish. Unfortunately he is not fantastic at it, nor is he at compulsory maths.
He gets a C3 in pass maths and a C in irish, and (for arguments sake gets A's in all the rest of his subjects, as they're optional, and being the wise fellow plays to his strenghts.)
That means his grades are AAAAAC. (6 best)

Now consider person B. Person B does his leaving cert in 2013 (say), without doing Irish. This suits person B because, like person A, he is not great at Irish or maths, and so he decides he's not going to count maths for one of his 6 best. He Gets a C in maths, and (for arguments sake gets A's in all the rest of his subjects, as they're optional, and being the wise fellow plays to his strenghts.)
That means his grades are AAAAAA.

Person A and B do the same course at college. However, person A is coming out just as the country is finding it's feet, so there's not too many jobs about. Unfortunately he cannot get a job, so he's on the dole, considering emigration.
The same thing happens person B.

However, luckily a job becomes availible. Person A & B apply for the job.
Now the contest is closely fought but unfortunately it comes down to the leaving cert grades shown on the CV's. Person B gets the job, because he didn't have to do compulsory Irish, hence, he has the unfair advantage.


Now I understand there are some other and more important things for an employer to consider, and I know the above analogy is exaggerated, but the message I'm trying to get across here is that grades are undoubtably a factor. Although, small as it may be, and probably insignificant in your eyes, it is just another simple reason why I think irish should be kept mandatory. Although, thats just my opinion, which of course, doesn't matter....

galwayrush

Mr. Bean. wrote: »

Oh my god some people are so thick!

Because so many people cannot understand my argument consider this analogy:

Person A does his leaving cert this year, with mandatory Irish. Unfortunately he is not fantastic at it, nor is he at compulsory maths.
He gets a C3 in pass maths and a C in irish, and (for arguments sake gets A's in all the rest of his subjects, as they're optional, and being the wise fellow plays to his strenghts.)
That means his grades are AAAAAC. (6 best)

Now consider person B. Person B does his leaving cert in 2013 (say), without doing Irish. This suits person B because, like person A, he is not great at Irish or maths, and so he decides he's not going to count maths for one of his 6 best. He Gets a C in maths, and (for arguments sake gets A's in all the rest of his subjects, as they're optional, and being the wise fellow plays to his strenghts.)
That means his grades are AAAAAA.

Person A and B do the same course at college. However, person A is coming out just as the country is finding it's feet, so there's not too many jobs about. Unfortunately he cannot get a job, so he's on the dole, considering emigration.
The same thing happens person B.

However, luckily a job becomes availible. Person A & B apply for the job.
Now the contest is closely fought but unfortunately it comes down to the leaving cert grades shown on the CV's. Person B gets the job, because he didn't have to do compulsory Irish, hence, he has the unfair advantage.


Now I understand there are some other and more important things for an employer to consider, and I know the above analogy is exaggerated, but the message I'm trying to get across here is that grades are undoubtably a factor. Although, small as it may be, and probably insignificant in your eyes, it is just another simple reason why I think irish should be kept mandatory. Although, thats just my opinion, which of course, doesn't matter....

It's hardly an unfair advantage, it's more of an advantage due to his abilities. Same argument, someone good at Irsh will get high results as well.

Violafy

Mr. Bean. wrote: »

Oh my god some people are so thick!

Because so many people cannot understand my argument consider this analogy:

Person A does his leaving cert this year, with mandatory Irish. Unfortunately he is not fantastic at it, nor is he at compulsory maths.
He gets a C3 in pass maths and a C in irish, and (for arguments sake gets A's in all the rest of his subjects, as they're optional, and being the wise fellow plays to his strenghts.)
That means his grades are AAAAAC. (6 best)

Now consider person B. Person B does his leaving cert in 2013 (say), without doing Irish. This suits person B because, like person A, he is not great at Irish or maths, and so he decides he's not going to count maths for one of his 6 best. He Gets a C in maths, and (for arguments sake gets A's in all the rest of his subjects, as they're optional, and being the wise fellow plays to his strenghts.)
That means his grades are AAAAAA.

Person A and B do the same course at college. However, person A is coming out just as the country is finding it's feet, so there's not too many jobs about. Unfortunately he cannot get a job, so he's on the dole, considering emigration.
The same thing happens person B.

However, luckily a job becomes availible. Person A & B apply for the job.
Now the contest is closely fought but unfortunately it comes down to the leaving cert grades shown on the CV's. Person B gets the job, because he didn't have to do compulsory Irish, hence, he has the unfair advantage.


Now I understand there are some other and more important things for an employer to consider, and I know the above analogy is exaggerated, but the message I'm trying to get across here is that grades are undoubtably a factor. Although, small as it may be, and probably insignificant in your eyes, it is just another simple reason why I think irish should be kept mandatory. Although, thats just my opinion, which of course, doesn't matter....

Still makes no sense. Oh well, I must just be thick.

Violafy

galwayrush wrote: »

It's hardly an unfair advantage, it's more of an advantage due to his abilities. Same argument, someone good at Irsh will get high results as well.

My thoughts exactly.

Snakeblood

But what if Person B broke his hand in a boating accident and couldn't do the exam?

I think if one person breaks their hand before an exam, everyone in the country should break their arm too.

Mr. Bean.

galwayrush wrote: »

It's hardly an unfair advantage, it's more of an advantage due to his abilities. Same argument, someone good at Irsh will get high results as well.

Yeah but the thing is, Person B, has the ability to choose whether or not he wants to do irish, unlike person A who was forced to do it, like it or lump it. Of curse if he was good at Irish it wouldn't matter, if he struggled it would.

galwayrush

Mr. Bean. wrote: »

Yeah but the thing is, Person B, has the ability to choose whether or not he wants to do irish, unlike person A who was forced to do it, like it or lump it. Of curse if he was good at Irish it wouldn't matter, if he struggled it would.

Which proves having a choice is a positive developement.:cool:

Mr. Bean.

Snakeblood wrote: »

But what if Person B broke his hand in a boating accident and couldn't do the exam?

I think if one person breaks their hand before an exam, everyone in the country should break their arm too.

well he was the stupid idiot then wasn't he.

Mr. Bean.

galwayrush wrote: »

Which proves having a choice is a positive developement.:cool:

But in giving the choice, it's unfair on those that didn't have it,(such as person A) making it a negitive development. I suppose it works both ways.

Snakeblood

Mr. Bean. wrote: »

well he was the stupid idiot then wasn't he.

No, he was caught up in a problem outside his direct control. Much like being stuck doing Irish.

Sparky_Larks

anyone here ever been an interviewer.

what would you think of someone with 5 A's as opposed to someone with 6?

If the interviewee's have both done a degree I look at their degree results more than their leaving cert.

Violafy

Sparky_Larks wrote: »

anyone here ever been an interviewer.

what would you think of someone with 5 A's as opposed to someone with 6?

If the interviewee's have both done a degree I look at their degree results more than their leaving cert.

Exactly. I think Mr.Bean knows perfectly well that his argument is ridiculous, but just won't admit it.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Violafy wrote: »

Exactly. I think Mr.Bean knows perfectly well that his argument is ridiculous, but just won't admit it.

Thought I wsa the only one with this viewpoint.

Dionysus

For all those people giving out about people being "forced" to do Irish but entirely ignoring all other forms of compulsion which students must "endure", let's just make attendance at school voluntary.

Consistency in a world gone mad, eh.

Mr. Bean.

Ok lads, I call it quits. I'm not here to waste my time. So far i've voiced my opinion through valid arguments, hoping that they could be challenged somewhat constructivly. However, It's apparent that people on this forum do not have the decency to acknowledge, even slightly, that what I say may bear some truth. In fact I'm suprised and dissapointed with the way this whole thing was played.

So to sum up:

I do believe Irish should be kept mandatory on the leaving cert for the following reasons.

It's pathetic that Irish people don't speak they're own language.
I'd imagine the take-up rate for the subject would be very small, in comparison with current leaving cert levels.
It wouldn't be fair on those that struggled with irish having to do it, while others do not.
Irish would probably die out if it wasn't mandatory.
It's an important part of our culture and heritage.
Some people feel very strongly about making irish optional because either; i) they were crap at it or; ii) they're a strong supporter of Fine gael.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Mr. Bean. wrote: »

Ok lads, I call it quits. I'm not here to waste my time. So far i've voiced my opinion through valid arguments, hoping that they could be challenged somewhat constructivly. However, It's apparent that people on this forum do not have the decency to acknowledge, even slightly, that what I say may bear some truth. In fact I'm suprised and dissapointed with the way this whole thing was played.

So to sum up:

I do believe Irish should be kept mandatory on the leaving cert for the following reasons.

It's pathetic that Irish people don't speak they're own language.
I'd imagine the take-up rate for the subject would be very small, in comparison with current leaving cert levels.
It wouldn't be fair on those that struggled with irish having to do it, while others do not.
Irish would probably die out if it wasn't mandatory.
It's an important part of our culture and heritage.
Some people feel very strongly about making irish optional because either; i) they were crap at it or; ii) they're a strong supporter of Fine gael.

or 3, they believe in freedom of choice.

Regarding the bit in bold, perhaps you should take the hint? As Socrates once said, nothign worthwhile is ever learnt under duress.

Mike 1972

This "unfair advantage" is so laughably weak its amazing so many posts have been taken up with it.

Sure we should have never have abolished compulsory Latin on those grounds. Indeed every reform to the Leaving cert exam or syllabus since 1921 should henceforth be revoked and everyone be required to resit the exam ?

Sparky_Larks wrote: »

If the interviewee's have both done a degree I look at their degree results more than their leaving cert.

I would imagine that if the interviewees have done a degree they dont even bother putting their LC results on their CV unless perhaps they are straight out of college and dont have much in the way of work experience to pad it out with ?

Dionysus wrote: »

For all those people giving out about people being "forced" to do Irish but entirely ignoring all other forms of compulsion which students must "endure", let's just make attendance at school voluntary.

It is after the Junior cert is it not ?

Violafy

Mr. Bean. wrote: »

Ok lads, I call it quits. I'm not here to waste my time. So far i've voiced my opinion through valid arguments, hoping that they could be challenged somewhat constructivly. However, It's apparent that people on this forum do not have the decency to acknowledge, even slightly, that what I say may bear some truth. In fact I'm suprised and dissapointed with the way this whole thing was played.

So to sum up:

I do believe Irish should be kept mandatory on the leaving cert for the following reasons.

It's pathetic that Irish people don't speak they're own language.
I'd imagine the take-up rate for the subject would be very small, in comparison with current leaving cert levels.
It wouldn't be fair on those that struggled with irish having to do it, while others do not.
Irish would probably die out if it wasn't mandatory.
It's an important part of our culture and heritage.
Some people feel very strongly about making irish optional because either; i) they were crap at it or; ii) they're a strong supporter of Fine gael.

I think it's better that Irish dies a natural death rather than students growing up to resent it because of having it shoved down their throats. If so few people would take up Irish as you say, then that's yet another good reason to make it optional. For many people, it's a just waste of time and completely irrelevant.
I don't see how this isn't a constructive argument?
Oh and many of us who want the compulsion taken away are neither (i) nor (ii). I'm doing HL Irish and am aiming for a high B, but still strongly dislike. And I have no intention for voting FG either because of some of their other policies.

Snakeblood

Dionysus wrote: »

For all those people giving out about people being "forced" to do Irish but entirely ignoring all other forms of compulsion which students must "endure", let's just make attendance at school voluntary.

Consistency in a world gone mad, eh.

I'd stack Useful against Forced.

Violafy

Dionysus wrote: »

For all those people giving out about people being "forced" to do Irish but entirely ignoring all other forms of compulsion which students must "endure", let's just make attendance at school voluntary.

Consistency in a world gone mad, eh.

This thread is about Irish. If we discussed the need for compulsion in all other worldly issues, this thread would be thousands of pages long! And school is voluntary after the age of 16.

galwayrush

Mr. Bean. wrote: »

Ok lads, I call it quits. I'm not here to waste my time. So far i've voiced my opinion through valid arguments, hoping that they could be challenged somewhat constructivly. However, It's apparent that people on this forum do not have the decency to acknowledge, even slightly, that what I say may bear some truth. In fact I'm suprised and dissapointed with the way this whole thing was played.

So to sum up:

I do believe Irish should be kept mandatory on the leaving cert for the following reasons.

It's pathetic that Irish people don't speak they're own language.
I'd imagine the take-up rate for the subject would be very small, in comparison with current leaving cert levels.
It wouldn't be fair on those that struggled with irish having to do it, while others do not.
Irish would probably die out if it wasn't mandatory.
It's an important part of our culture and heritage.
Some people feel very strongly about making irish optional because either; i) they were crap at it or; ii) they're a strong supporter of Fine gael.

Irish people don't speak the language because English is their first language, and in most cases their only one,and it works well for us in many other countries.Nohing pathetic about being practical.

The take up rate would probably be simlar to the amount of people who use the language atm

It certainly would not die out because of it being optional for the last 2 years of the school cycle , i'm sure some will do it in college as well, by choice.
Of course it's important from a cultural/heritage point of view, as long as some feel strong enough about it, it won't die out.

Anyone crap at it should not be forced to waste time at it on an exam that determines their future, that has nothing to do with supporting a particular political party.

iguana

Sparky_Larks wrote: »

anyone here ever been an interviewer.

what would you think of someone with 5 A's as opposed to someone with 6?

I've hired people and I've assisted colleagues by sitting in on interviews where they have hired people. I can safely say that once someone has met the minimum educational standards necessary their school/college results have been completely and totally irrelevant. What matters is a mixture of their work experience and how they present themselves at the interview, especially if they have been asked to prepare a presentation for the interview.

I'm aware that every field is different and there will be cases where your college performance will matter. But these are usually for trainee/intern positions, where your experience as a professional is limited/non-existent.

iguana

Mr. Bean. wrote: »

It wouldn't be fair on those that struggled with irish having to do it, while others do not.

Some people feel very strongly about making irish optional because either; i) they were crap at it

I'd imagine there is a fairly strong intersect between those who struggled with Irish and those who were crap at it. So if making Irish non-compulsory is so unfair on them, why do they want to allow future generations the ability to opt out?

Gaeilge?

Ikky Poo2 wrote: »

Sorry, but this is ridicuous. You would actually sack excellent inspirational teachers for not speaking Irish?

Sorry, major misunderstanding here I think. I meant Irish teachers, specifically. Surely they need to speak Irish. Obviously no other teacher should be sacked for not being able to speak Irish. That would just be silly. (My bad!) :rolleyes:

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Gaeilge? wrote: »

Sorry, major misunderstanding here I think. I meant Irish teachers, specifically. Surely they need to speak Irish. Obviously no other teacher should be sacked for not being able to speak Irish. That would just be silly. (My bad!) :rolleyes:

Fair enough, kinda misread it myself. I assumed Irish teachers did actually speak Irish (makes sense!) but if not - yeah, lose them.

Still curious to know how you think leaving it compulsory will inspire those students who don't like it to suddenly like it, and why you think people shouldn't be allowed to choose what they study for the leaving cert (obviously relative to all compulsory subjects, not just Irish).

deise go deo

Ikky Poo2 wrote: »

As for the rest of it, why not do both? Improve the course AND make it optional? If you do it right, people will want to take it.

Why make not make it optional? Well why should it be made optional? FG claims that it should be made optional because it will promote the language.

Personally I believe that if changes are to be made, they should be supported by Evidience.

There is plenty of Evidience that the current system is not working. There is the evidience that something needs to be changed(this is not evidience that it needs to be made optional, just that something needs to be done)

So, what are the possible courses of action and what evidience is there to support them.

-We could do nothing.
But again, there is plenty of evidience that the system is not working as it is currently, and we all know what the definiation of madness is. ie Doing the same thing and expecting different results.
So this option is in my opinion ruled out.

-We could make it optional only.
There is plenty of Evidience that this will not work, The curriculum is clearly failing to teach Irish, making it optional only wont do anything about that. Also, There is clearly built up negativity around Irish, much of it comming from that same failed and fustrating curriculum. Making it optional now only will likely see a major colapse in numbers studying Irish, just like droping compulsion only lead to a major colaps of languages in England. Due to this and several other factors (Such as the fact that Irish has 7.5 hours of exams, has a curriculu which has clearly failed and has a comparativly large workload compared to optional subjects for the same points) someone choosing to do Irish would in effect be putting themselves at a disadvantage.
Not to mention that parents would be lickly to discourage their kids from choosing Irish due to the remembered misery of Irish when they were in school(at a time when things were even worse than they are now).


-We could reform the curriculum only.
Now we are getting into more evidience based terotory. The current curiciulum is clearly failing, No doubt about that, This can be seen by how vastly the Curriculum for Irish in our education system diverges from the proven Best practice of the Common European framework for second language learning. Reform of the curriculum, to bring it into line with this proven framework will very likely lead to much better results and will provide the ground work for a widespread language revival. This is because that although most people cannot currently speak Irish, there is clear support for the Language in every survey taken on the Issue.
If the language were taught on the basis of international best practice, putting the spoken word at the centre of the curriculum then we would have a generation growing up together for whome Irish is a natural and enjoyable part of their everyday lives. The resentment over the pointlessness of being in Irish class, but not learning would disapear and people would actually have a choice of what language they would like to use as they will have an ability in both.

-We could reform the curiculum and make it optional at the same time.
This option sufferes from many of the same problems that the make it optional only option dose, Built up frustration and resentment of the pointlessness of being in Irish class, but not learning Irish will most likely lead to an initial excodus from studying the subject.
The full problems with this option are layed out very well by leto here.

-We could reform the Curriculum first, with the posibility of making it optional later.
This is, according to some FG TD's at least, FG's prefered option. The curriculum would be reformed and brought into line with best practice, and we wait to see the results. Then there is a discussion on if making it optional is the best way forward.



Which do you think would be best?

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

They main differene we have is priorities: you prioritse the language; I prioritise the individual student's right to choose.

deise go deo wrote: »

Why make not make it optional? Well why should it be made optional? FG claims that it should be made optional because it will promote the language.

Personally I believe that if changes are to be made, they should be supported by Evidience.

There is plenty of Evidience that the current system is not working. There is the evidience that something needs to be changed(this is not evidience that it needs to be made optional, just that something needs to be done)

So, what are the possible courses of action and what evidience is there to support them.

-We could do nothing.
But again, there is plenty of evidience that the system is not working as it is currently, and we all know what the definiation of madness is. ie Doing the same thing and expecting different results.
So this option is in my opinion ruled out.

-We could make it optional only.
There is plenty of Evidience that this will not work, The curriculum is clearly failing to teach Irish, making it optional only wont do anything about that. Also, There is clearly built up negativity around Irish, much of it comming from that same failed and fustrating curriculum. Making it optional now only will likely see a major colapse in numbers studying Irish, just like droping compulsion only lead to a major colaps of languages in England. Due to this and several other factors (Such as the fact that Irish has 7.5 hours of exams, has a curriculu which has clearly failed and has a comparativly large workload compared to optional subjects for the same points) someone choosing to do Irish would in effect be putting themselves at a disadvantage.

Pretty much agree with everything above.

Not to mention that parents would be lickly to discourage their kids from choosing Irish due to the remembered misery of Irish when they were in school(at a time when things were even worse than they are now).

Disagree here. I know plenty of parents who hated Irish but are proud of their kids ability to speak it. If my kids wanted to learn Irish, I'd support them 100%. Virtually eryone has acknowledges that Irish in school is different to Irish in school 15/20 years ago.

-We could reform the curriculum only.
Now we are getting into more evidience based terotory. The current curiciulum is clearly failing, No doubt about that, This can be seen by how vastly the Curriculum for Irish in our education system diverges from the proven Best practice of the Common European framework for second language learning. Reform of the curriculum, to bring it into line with this proven framework will very likely lead to much better results and will provide the ground work for a widespread language revival. This is because that although most people cannot currently speak Irish, there is clear support for the Language in every survey taken on the Issue.
If the language were taught on the basis of international best practice, putting the spoken word at the centre of the curriculum then we would have a generation growing up together for whome Irish is a natural and enjoyable part of their everyday lives. The resentment over the pointlessness of being in Irish class, but not learning would disapear and people would actually have a choice of what language they would like to use as they will have an ability in both.

In a generation, yes. But that's tough **** for anyone going the LC in the next few years and doesn't want the language.

-We could reform the curiculum and make it optional at the same time.
This option sufferes from many of the same problems that the make it optional only option dose, Built up frustration and resentment of the pointlessness of being in Irish class, but not learning Irish will most likely lead to an initial excodus from studying the subject.
The full problems with this option are layed out very well by leto here.

-We could reform the Curriculum first, with the posibility of making it optional later.
This is, according to some FG TD's at least, FG's prefered option. The curriculum would be reformed and brought into line with best practice, and we wait to see the results. Then there is a discussion on if making it optional is the best way forward.



Which do you think would be best?

For the language or the student?

Option 3. OPtion 4, I see your point, but I think it's very unfair to use peopel studying now as pawns for the promotion of the language. If they cleary don't like it and can put the time to netter use, why stand in their way?

As I said, I put the student beofre the language because it's bloody selfish not to.

deise go deo

Ikky Poo2 wrote: »

Option 3. OPtion 4, I see your point, but I think it's very unfair to use peopel studying now as pawns for the promotion of the language. If they cleary don't like it and can put the time to netter use, why stand in their way?

As I said, I put the student beofre the language because it's bloody selfish not to.

You make the assumption that there is much standing in their way even as it is, there is no requirement to actually sit the exam, If someone point blank does not want to study Irish there is almost nothing preventing them just not doing it.

The only disadvantage would be not having Irish would mean that they would not meet the requirments for a few Universitys, But this would still be the case if it was made optional fro next septembre anyway.

Personally I would say making the language optional imediatly to suit the minority would be quite selfish when there is a better compromise path open.

Gaeilge?

Ikky Poo2 wrote: »

Fair enough, kinda misread it myself. I assumed Irish teachers did actually speak Irish (makes sense!) but if not - yeah, lose them.

Still curious to know how you think leaving it compulsory will inspire those students who don't like it to suddenly like it, and why you think people shouldn't be allowed to choose what they study for the leaving cert (obviously relative to all compulsory subjects, not just Irish).

No problem. Well I don't really think it being compulsory will inspire anyone. In reality, it probably would have the opposite effect... But I think if it was taught properly, with far more spoken Irish, way more people would like it. Basically, I think the course should be improved a lot, and then decide whether or not to have it compulsory. If it's made optional now, loads will drop it because the course is bad, and the teaching of it is worse, not necessarily because they dislike the language. The sooner the teaching of Irish is improved the better.

KeithAFC

Do kids in school in the republic have to study the Irish language?

galwayrush

KeithAFC wrote: »

Do kids in school in the republic have to study the Irish language?

Yes, unless they didn't start their education in this country / spent time abroad where they spent some time in school there.

deise go deo

KeithAFC wrote: »

Do kids in school in the republic have to study the Irish language?

Keith, given that you have already contributed to threads on this topic several times already, how can you not know this?

Irish is Compulsory to LC but there are certain criteria for getting an exemption.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

deise go deo wrote: »

You make the assumption that there is much standing in their way even as it is, there is no requirement to actually sit the exam, If someone point blank does not want to study Irish there is almost nothing preventing them just not doing it.

The only disadvantage would be not having Irish would mean that they would not meet the requirments for a few Universitys, But this would still be the case if it was made optional fro next septembre anyway.

Personally I would say making the language optional imediatly to suit the minority would be quite selfish when there is a better compromise path open.

Very interesting point: what happens to students who just refuse to sit in the class (but attend and work though all the others)? Does completely abandoning Irish by will have any knock-on effects for a student?

If the "minority" want it optional, why would you be worried about them choosing not to do it? If the majority want it, then it won't have any effect on the recovery. Also, you can't say making something optional is selfish.
It's allowing people to choose. Yes, they make a decision you think is selfish, but the act of choosing is not. If it were, the entire Democratic system is flawed: is allowing people to vote on Friday selfish? even ef they make a poor decision?

Gaeilge? wrote: »

No problem. Well I don't really think it being compulsory will inspire anyone. In reality, it probably would have the opposite effect... But I think if it was taught properly, with far more spoken Irish, way more people would like it. Basically, I think the course should be improved a lot, and then decide whether or not to have it compulsory. If it's made optional now, loads will drop it because the course is bad, and the teaching of it is worse, not necessarily because they dislike the language. The sooner the teaching of Irish is improved the better.

Had this argument before: the course is not goign to radically improve overnight, and if you're 16 NOW what is the point in forcing someone to do a course you admit is badly taught? If anything, they need to happen simultaneously. Your real targets here are the 12/13 year olds going into secondary now. That gives you three years. Make these kids WANT to continue Irish in three years. Job done.

But for those doing the leaving in the next two years, it's already too late. It's not possibe to have it in place by September.