Fine Gael policy to end compusory Irish till Leaving Cert

De Dannan

Ikky Poo2 wrote: »

Virtually eryone has acknowledges that Irish in school is different to Irish in school 15/20 years ago.



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Thats probably the worst post here yet
Where do you get that nugget from, just pulled it out of your ass ?

Violafy

Gaeilge? wrote: »

No problem. Well I don't really think it being compulsory will inspire anyone. In reality, it probably would have the opposite effect... But I think if it was taught properly, with far more spoken Irish, way more people would like it. Basically, I think the course should be improved a lot, and then decide whether or not to have it compulsory. If it's made optional now, loads will drop it because the course is bad, and the teaching of it is worse, not necessarily because they dislike the language. The sooner the teaching of Irish is improved the better.

How could the teaching be improved? Genuinely wondering, as we all know how hard it is to sack sh*t teachers. There's an Irish teacher in my school who literally has to use a dictionary before answering any question. :mad: What a joke.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

De Dannan wrote: »

Thats probably the worst post here yet
Where do you get that nugget from, just pulled it out of your ass ?

Nice mature respone. Totally devoid of arrogance. I suppose some sort of elaboration is out of the question?

Irish is not being taught as forcefully as it was when I did it, and teaching standards have improved even if the course content itself haven't. Or are you saying that most people here think Irish is taught exactly the same as 20 years ago? Peig Sayers included?

deise go deo

Violafy wrote: »

How could the teaching be improved? Genuinely wondering, as we all know how hard it is to sack sh*t teachers. There's an Irish teacher in my school who literally has to use a dictionary before answering any question. :mad: What a joke.

Good question.

There are several suggestions, The Tl;DR would be:

-All trainee teachers should be taught through Irish in an all-Irish environment, learning through and about immersion education in Irish, for the equivalent of one academic year of their training course, divided over the total length of their course and including the vital first few weeks. Students to be given the option to complete the entire course through Irish if they so wish;
-One subject, as well as Irish, should be through the medium of Irish to all primary pupils, initially on a pilot basis with the necessary support and training;
-Two syllabi should be developed for Irish at second level with two different examination papers for the Leaving Certificate and the Junior Certificate exams, Teanga na Gaeilge, or Irish Language to be taught to every student and Litríocht na Gaeilge, or Irish Language Literature for higher level students only.

CnaG Education Policy

These would be the main points in relation to ordinary schools.
There are a few other suggestions as well, such as providing teachers with poor Irish with training courses in the Gaelthacht over the Summer.

The full list can be seen here

The main Idea is to bring the curriculum into line with the Common European Framework for second language learning. The Irish version of this is available here

deise go deo

Ikky Poo2 wrote: »

Very interesting point: what happens to students who just refuse to sit in the class (but attend and work though all the others)? Does completely abandoning Irish by will have any knock-on effects for a student?

The knock on effect is not having Irish, which excludes them from some(but not all) university's. Other than that, there is really nothing the school can do about it.

If the "minority" want it optional, why would you be worried about them choosing not to do it? If the majority want it, then it won't have any effect on the recovery. Also, you can't say making something optional is selfish.
It's allowing people to choose. Yes, they make a decision you think is selfish, but the act of choosing is not. If it were, the entire Democratic system is flawed: is allowing people to vote on Friday selfish? even ef they make a poor decision?

I believe that I outlined the problem with making it optional straight away above, see there for the answer to your question.
Choosing not to do Irish is not selfish, demanding that it be made optional straight away, despite the damage that will cause to the future of the language is selfish when there is a compromise solution available.

Adrian009

Irish is not the first language of most Irish people. There is something horribly wrong with a country that has poured millions into teaching it for nearly one hundred years yet has not monolingual Irish communities.

We should let it stand or fall on its own merits. Its a huge waste of resources. Let people make up their own minds about it. If I had children I would send them to a Gaeilscoil but I don't and so have very little investment in it. Let it be cultural not compulsory.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

deise go deo wrote: »

The knock on effect is not having Irish, which excludes them from some(but not all) university's. Other than that, there is really nothing the school can do about it.




I believe that I outlined the problem with making it optional straight away above, see there for the answer to your question.
Choosing not to do Irish is not selfish, demanding that it be made optional straight away, despite the damage that will cause to the future of the language is selfish when there is a compromise solution available.

Excuse me for copying from one of my earlier posts (to a different poster), but it's relevant to your point.

The course is not goign to radically improve overnight, and if you're 16 NOW what is the point in forcing someone to do a course they clearly don't like? If anything, they need to happen simultaneously. Your real targets here are the 12/13 year olds going into secondary now. That gives you three years. Make these kids WANT to continue Irish in three years. Job done. But for those doing the leaving in the next two years, what is to be gained by forcing them to do the older course?

I really don't see what damage this does to the language and I don't agree that the comprise is what's best for the students.

Regarding teaching, I also think that what some teachers lack is not the ability to speak or understand the language, but the ability to engage in students and inspire them to WANT to take it up.

deise go deo

Ikky Poo2 wrote: »

Excuse me for copying from one of my earlier posts (to a different poster), but it's relevant to your point.

The course is not goign to radically improve overnight, and if you're 16 NOW what is the point in forcing someone to do a course they clearly don't like? If anything, they need to happen simultaneously. Your real targets here are the 12/13 year olds going into secondary now. That gives you three years. Make these kids WANT to continue Irish in three years. Job done. But for those doing the leaving in the next two years, what is to be gained by forcing them to do the older course?

I really don't see what damage this does to the language and I don't agree that the comprise is what's best for the students.

It is well within FG's ability to make major improvements in the Curriculum for next September. The curriculum based on the common European framework for second languages already exists, what needs to be done is for it to be implemented in schools.

The root cause of the problem is the curriculum, this can be improved for the LC in a relatively short period of time, rushing into things wold be a mistake, all the evidence points to making Irish optional immediately leading to a disaster.

I do not agree that rushing into changing the structure of the education system without due diligence is what is best for students. A more level headed and progressive approach is needed in my opinion.

Regarding teaching, I also think that what some teachers lack is not the ability to speak or understand the language, but the ability to engage in students and inspire them to WANT to take it up.

You will get this in every subject, I see no reason to assume that Irish is significantly different in this regard.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

deise go deo wrote: »

It is well within FG's ability to make major improvements in the Curriculum for next September. The curriculum based on the common European framework for second languages already exists, what needs to be done is for it to be implemented in schools.

The root cause of the problem is the curriculum, this can be improved for the LC in a relatively short period of time, rushing into things wold be a mistake, all the evidence points to making Irish optional immediately leading to a disaster.

I do not agree that rushing into changing the structure of the education system without due diligence is what is best for students. A more level headed and progressive approach is needed in my opinion.

What, then, do you say to students who are sick of Irish and doing the leaving in the next few years? My language is more important than your future? As I said, I put the students ahead of the language.

I also think the key to the survival of the langauge, as I said, is not the LC, but the JC. Get that right and they'll want to do it.

You will get this in every subject, I see no reason to assume that Irish is significantly different in this regard.

Oh, I know, but it's significantly more important to Irish. Maths is not at risk of dying out.

Krusader

Ikky Poo2 wrote: »

What, then, do you say to students who are sick of Irish and doing the leaving in the next few years? My language is more important than your future? As I said, I put the students ahead of the language.

If a student's future is determined by his/her LC results then God help us all, the LC is only one of many of life's tests. In fact trying yo achieve academic excellence in a subject you find a chore could be see as a valuable life lesson.

twinQuins

Crosáidí wrote: »

If a student's future is determined by his/her LC results then God help us all, the LC is only one of many of life's tests. In fact trying yo achieve academic excellence in a subject you find a chore could be see as a valuable life lesson.

Sure, if it's something you wish to pursue. But if it's just something you're going to struggle with, overcome and then never use again then where's the life lesson?

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Crosáidí wrote: »

If a student's future is determined by his/her LC results then God help us all, the LC is only one of many of life's tests. In fact trying yo achieve academic excellence in a subject you find a chore could be see as a valuable life lesson.

It could well be, if they know what they want to do. Second part is an excuse: let's fill life full of things that are hard and point out that life is hard. Eh... let's not.

Krusader

Ikky Poo2 wrote: »

It could well be, if they know what they want to do. Second part is an excuse: let's fill life full of things that are hard and point out that life is hard. Eh... let's not.

more of an observation than an excuse

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Crosáidí wrote: »

If a student's future is determined by his/her LC results then God help us all, the LC is only one of many of life's tests. In fact trying yo achieve academic excellence in a subject you find a chore could be see as a valuable life lesson.

Crosáidí wrote: »

more of an observation than an excuse

Fair enough, but doesn't answer the initial question: how do you approach a practical student who knows what he wants to do and doesn't like or need Irish and just wants to devote his time to what he does need?

Krusader

twinQuins wrote: »

Sure, if it's something you wish to pursue. But if it's just something you're going to struggle with, overcome and then never use again then where's the life lesson?

Well eventually students go out into the world and start working they'll be asked to do tasks that they neither care about or want to do, same in their private lifes.

just an observation

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Crosáidí wrote: »

Well eventually students go out into the world and start working they'll be asked to do tasks that they neither care about or want to do, same in their private lifes.

just an observation

So "life is hard and tough ****" is your best line? You'd actually stand in their way?

Sorry, but if I was 16 and doing the LC, this would just kill the language for me altogether.

Krusader

Ikky Poo2 wrote: »

Fair enough, but doesn't answer the initial question: how do you approach a practical student who knows what he wants to do and doesn't like or need Irish and just wants to devote his time to what he does need?

Agree, that the course you want to do in college should be relevant to the subjects you choose, the points race is ridiculous in this sense. And Irish and other subjects should be made optional at LC level but after an overhaul of each curriculum

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Crosáidí wrote: »

Agree, that the course you want to do in college should be relevant to the subjects you choose, the points race is ridiculous in this sense. And Irish and other subjects should be made optional at LC level but after an overhaul of each curriculum

Same time. Fairer on students (although might not be in the best interests of the language, admittedly, but people are more important).

Other than that agreed. End of discussion:)

Luxie

AnonoBoy wrote: »

Good. This will mean that when I have those awful 'doing my leaving cert again but wearing my slippers at the exam' dreams at least I will be exempt from having to dream-study the Modh Coinniolach.

You as well?

deise go deo

Ikky Poo2 wrote: »

What, then, do you say to students who are sick of Irish and doing the leaving in the next few years? My language is more important than your future? As I said, I put the students ahead of the language.

What would I say to them, Go n-éirí leat, I suppose, Doing Irish does not compromise anyones future, if they don't want to spend too much time on Irish they can drop down to pass, if they don't mind not getting into some University's they can drop down to foundation, if they have a moral objection to studying Irish they can just refuse to do so(Though the difference between this and foundation is vague)

I also think the key to the survival of the langauge, as I said, is not the LC, but the JC. Get that right and they'll want to do it.

The way the language is taught needs to be properly reformed from Primary level right the way up. People should be in a position where they are beginning to be able to speak Irish by the time they get to secondary level.
In secondary they should be following the syllabus for the TEG, and gaining recognized qualifications along the way.

Oh, I know, but it's significantly more important to Irish. Maths is not at risk of dying out.

Irish suffers more from teachers who's standard of Irish is not up to scratch, as dose maths really, these problems should be tackled across the board.

Luxie

KerranJast wrote: »

Ireland in the 19th Century was a 3rd World country in a lot of respects and a huge majority of the population were illiterate to boot.
As a nation we are much better off economically having English as our primary language.

Yep, and it makes us more employable abroad too. Which is kinda key in these days of emigration and the like.

I think a large part of me being recruited where I currently work was having English to mother tongue standard.

If enda goes ahead with this, i'll be delighted. im in junior cert now and if this passed then i could spend 6 classes a week (in L.C) on a subject that actually benefits me.
Irish will not die. i love speaking the language but its so dull learning it it in school.
The people that want to study the language can by all means study it. Nobodys stopping them

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

deise go deo wrote: »

What would I say to them, Go n-éirí leat, I suppose, Doing Irish does not compromise anyones future, if they don't want to spend too much time on Irish they can drop down to pass, if they don't mind not getting into some University's they can drop down to foundation, if they have a moral objection to studying Irish they can just refuse to do so(Though the difference between this and foundation is vague)




The way the language is taught needs to be properly reformed from Primary level right the way up. People should be in a position where they are beginning to be able to speak Irish by the time they get to secondary level.
In secondary they should be following the syllabus for the TEG, and gaining recognized qualifications along the way.



Irish suffers more from teachers who's standard of Irish is not up to scratch, as dose maths really, these problems should be tackled across the board.

Fair comments. As long as no one threatens abstainers with some sort of "we'll expel you or fail your leaving if you don't do Irish", but then I presume that's well an truly in the past.

sdiff

I sincerely hope this is true. Even if you love Irish, there's absolutely no reason for it to remain compulsory. People like myself will just do the bare minimum (Ordinary Level). I'll forget it as soon as I finish the LC. Teaching Irish is wasted on a west brit like me. If people like the language and want to learn/speak it, by all means let them, but forcing it on me serves absolutely no purpose.

Dionysus

sdiff wrote: »

I sincerely hope this is true. Even if you love Irish, there's absolutely no reason for it to remain compulsory. People like myself will just do the bare minimum (Ordinary Level). I'll forget it as soon as I finish the LC. Teaching Irish is wasted on a west brit like me. If people like the language and want to learn/speak it, by all means let them, but forcing it on me serves absolutely no purpose.

Nice bump after nearly 8 months of dormancy. Now, to answer your "argument", kindly read the innumerable responses to it in the previous 875 posts.

All I will say is this: I had no choice when useless Shakespearean sonnets and futile calculus equations were shoved down my throat. I, too, forgot it and I have never used any of these since the day I finished the LC. In fact I had no choice in going to school: I had to go. What an infringement of my rights! :rolleyes:Etcetera ad infinitum.

This is in response to the "Yes, I'm looking for a scapegoat for my own failures/ I would be a genius were it not for having to study Irish/ blah blah blah" brigade.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Dionysus wrote: »

Nice bump after nearly 8 months of dormancy. Now, to answer your "argument", kindly read the innumerable responses to it in the previous 875 posts.

All I will say is this: I had no choice when useless Shakespearean sonnets and futile calculus equations were shoved down my throat. I, too, forgot it and I have never used any of these since the day I finished the LC. In fact I had no choice in going to school: I had to go. What an infringement of my rights! :rolleyes:Etcetera ad infinitum.

This is in response to the "Yes, I'm looking for a scapegoat for my own failures/ I would be a genius were it not for having to study Irish/ blah blah blah" brigade.

I think you'll find the points you made were also responded to in the 875-odd posts if you want to read back.

And out before the zombie-thread lock.

Saila

In Anseo

Mike 1972

I really dont get this hang up people have about "zombie threads" (Backseat modding ???). Why do boards bother archiving old threads if one cannot contribute to them ?

Dionysus wrote: »

Nice bump after nearly 8 months of dormancy. Now, to answer your "argument", kindly read the innumerable responses to it in the previous 875 posts.

Is it somehow better to start a new thread and have those same arguments rehashed by the same posters in ANOTHER 875+ posts ?

Wetai

Should be optional in Secondary, 1st year (like French/German, at least where I went), or the JC at the latest. IMO, it's a pretty boring course, especially for those that don't really want to do it. Hell, if people don't want to do it they'll just get their parents to say they've got Dyslexia or something and can't do it (a few people I know had this done - due to no other way to opt-out) or just do Foundation. You shouldn't be forced to to Irish when you're at the age of Secondary school, especially since it's dying out + it's not spoken much outside of the Gaeltacht. That'd be like French barely spoken in France...
It shouldn't be gotten rid of completely, of course, as some people like it or will choose it over doing, for example, french AND german in the LC to have two languages (which I, personally, would have gotten really confused with - I "managed" with French - and that was doing only one language - I'd probably end up failing both [:P]).

TL;DR, make it optional in secondary, or after 1st/3rd year - people that don't like it shouldn't have to be forced to do a dying/dead language unless they (personally feel that they) need it.

Chris_5339762

It needs a massive overhaul.

At the very worst, it needs to be completely reworked to concentrate on spoken or reading Irish. Stair na Gaeilge, poetry and Peig/A Thig Na Tit orm need to be removed completely. They dont benefit anyone and they make everyone hate the language.

I can understand that the old national language needs to be shown to people. Keep it for primary school, maybe keep it up until JC. After that though, it should be optional.

Much more emphasis should be placed on PROPERLY learning a good European language, in the same vein as the Europeans push English. And make sure again, its reading, speaking and possibly in this case writing too.

The whole nonsense of 14 years of classes being WASTED on learning Irish needs to stop for the sake of the country. Noone can successfully argue that spending that amount of time learning a language that noone will use is a good idea. The effort/time learning Irish would be far better spent learning another foreign language that might actually benefit the student in later life.