Fine Gael policy to end compusory Irish till Leaving Cert

Iwasfrozen

kraggy wrote: »

Because there could be cases where students who want to study it for leaving cert wouldn't be able to because the numbers wouldn't be sufficient in their school.

That's a problem with every subject not just Irish. The really determined will find a way through though. Like the girl in the year ahead of me who wanted to be a pharmacist even though chemistry wasn't offered in our school. Instead she studyed it outside of school.

aDeener

mickydoomsux wrote: »

A tiny percentage of people speak it and that's pretty much only out of being awkward "FOOK DA BRITS" dinosaurs.

It's a dead language, the vast majority if people in this country speak English, if Irish was made completely optional in schools it would be pretty much gone completely in 20-ish years.

you sir, are living proof that our whole education system is a failure :rolleyes:

ryaner012

it's not just the Irish language syllabus that should be restructured but the foreign languages that are taught are only useful from a 70's approach when we would only really look as far as Europe.

People that say that Irish is a dead language are wrong, I was force fed it all the way through school and was never good at it and didn't like it but I like it now and wish that i was better at it.

I took French at school which I think is still one of the most popular languages taught at school, yet it is pointless. More international languages like Spanish of Chinese should be taught in schools instead of people taking French

syklops

kraggy wrote: »

Because there could be cases where students who want to study it for leaving cert wouldn't be able to because the numbers wouldn't be sufficient in their school.

That shows a pretty low confidence in the language if you think by making it compulsory so few people will choose it that they wont be able to find a teacher for them.

Only 2 people in my year did applied maths but they were still accommodated. 2 girls in my class took Russian for their leaving and they had a class organised for them. A friend of mine wanted to do a class that our school did not provide so he changed schools. Thats how the game works.

If it really does occur that so few people opt in for irish that there are not enough numbers for a regular class in a school, then surely you can see that making it compulsory only damages the language?

mike65

Renn wrote: »

Does mike65 even have an opinion on this?

Not particuarly, its not my language. From a political point of view its intersting - a bit like the PDs suggesting removing God from the constitution back in the early 90s (that went down well at the time - not!). Looking at the terrible way the language is taught, I've lived here since 9 so was compelled to cope with Peig et al and its clear
changes are required. Whether dropping compulsion is the way is a debatable point of course. Changing the way Irish is taught is surely what should come first for Irish natives. The matter should be left open for foreigner children.

kraggy

Snakeblood wrote: »

But there definitely will be many many more cases of students who don't want to study it but are forced to instead of learning something else? Is it really worth the cost?

Yes, if it's done right. The way that Gaeilge has been taught up to now has to stop. Radical reform is needed.

But to deny children the chance to study it for Leaving Cert is wrong. That's what taking away compulsory Gaeilge would do.

Also, what about the cost of English? What relevance does reading Hard Times or Circus Animals' Desertion have? What good is that to working life? It's not even the type of English we use in the real world.

kraggy

syklops wrote: »

That shows a pretty low confidence in the language if you think by making it compulsory so few people will choose it that they wont be able to find a teacher for them.

Only 2 people in my year did applied maths but they were still accommodated. 2 girls in my class took Russian for their leaving and they had a class organised for them. A friend of mine wanted to do a class that our school did not provide so he changed schools. Thats how the game works.

If it really does occur that so few people opt in for irish that there are not enough numbers for a regular class in a school, then surely you can see that making it compulsory only damages the language?

I never said it would the case in all schools. I'm saying that it could happen in isolated incidents.

So those kids who want to study it should have to move school after building up frienships with other kids in the school and got used to attending that particular school should have to give that up, move schools, risk being alienated in a new school because teenagers can be cruel to outsiders, just because they want to studay their native language for the Leaving Cert?

syklops

kraggy wrote: »

I never said it would the case in all schools. I'm saying that it could happen in isolated incidents.

So those kids who want to study it should have to move school after building up frienships with other kids in the school and got used to attending that particular school should have to give that up, move schools, risk being alienated in a new school because teenagers can be cruel to outsiders, just because they want to studay their native language for the Leaving Cert?

I am sorry but that is a really really weak argument against the removal of compulsory teaching of Irish.

Snakeblood

kraggy wrote: »

Yes, if it's done right. The way that Gaeilge has been taught up to now has to stop. Radical reform is needed.

But to deny children the chance to study it for Leaving Cert is wrong. That's what taking away compulsory Gaeilge would do.

Also, what about the cost of English? What relevance does reading Hard Times or Circus Animals' Desertion have? What good is that to working life? It's not even the type of English we use in the real world.

Irish definitely needs reform if it's not completely ditched.

I don't see how the benefit to the extraordinary minority of children outweighs the benefit to the majority who might get to learn something else.

Learning how to speak proper English is useful for business, and useful for interacting with other nations. Reading literature improves spelling, grammar vocabulary and makes it easier to illustrate concepts and thoughts.

Learning how to speak proper Irish is useful for: speaking to other people who also speak Irish, but who probably won't because most people in Ireland have English as a lingua franca, and that will be extraordinarily difficult to change given the English television and marketing we get here, and the relative paucity and lack of budget of Irish television.

Incidentally, reading Hard Times probably would give an understanding of the downside of utilitarianism and how that not everything can be measured in practical use, and there's a dimension of soul that should be attached to things to appreciate them fully.:)

Iwasfrozen

kraggy wrote: »

I never said it would the case in all schools. I'm saying that it could happen in isolated incidents.

So those kids who want to study it should have to move school after building up frienships with other kids in the school and got used to attending that particular school should have to give that up, move schools, risk being alienated in a new school because teenagers can be cruel to outsiders, just because they want to studay their native language for the Leaving Cert?

Yes, that's the case with every optional subject. Schools can't please everyone so resources should go to the most popular subjects. The time of Irish being afforded a special place is thankfully drawing to a close.

kraggy

syklops wrote: »

I am sorry but that is a really really weak argument against the removal of compulsory teaching of Irish.

It't not my sole argument.

Let me ask you this: which would be better:

1. to make it optional and therfore reducing the number of young people being able to speak it to a certain standard; or

2. overhaul the system, make it interesting, reward students for being able to speak it instead of regurgitating on paper formulaic essays on the arguments for/against nuclear power?

I know which one I want.

Snakeblood

kraggy wrote: »

It't not my sole argument.

Let me ask you this: which would be better:

1. to make it optional and therfore reducing the number of young people being able to speak it to a certain standard; or

2. overhaul the system, make it interesting, reward students for being able to speak it instead of regurgitating on paper formulaic essays on the arguments for/against nuclear power?

I know which one I want.

What about
3: to make it optional and therefore reducing the number of young people being able to speak it to a certain standard; and overhaul the system, make it interesting, reward students for being able to speak it instead of regurgitating on paper formulaic essays on the arguments for/against nuclear power?

kraggy

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Yes, that's the case with every optional subject. Schools can't please everyone so resources should go to the most popular subjects. The time of Irish being afforded a special place is thankfully drawing to a close.

It'll be a sad day when more students will get to study Classical Studies instead of their country's language.

kraggy

Snakeblood wrote: »

What about
3: to make it optional and therefore reducing the number of young people being able to speak it to a certain standard; and overhaul the system, make it interesting, reward students for being able to speak it instead of regurgitating on paper formulaic essays on the arguments for/against nuclear power?

Ok, let's do that with English too.

Mark200

david75 wrote: »

We'll see you out waving your union jack when the Queen visits no doubt?

there's nothing wrong with the Irish language but everything is wrong with the way it's taught and its cirriculum.

It's the last shred of our own culture we have left, we cling to it or just become a province of the Uk(which we are pretty much in every other aspect) our language being the one thing we have left to seperate us..

this would be devastating ..

You cling onto it all you want. But I don't see why you should stop others from doing something else for their Leaving Cert that they may find more useful.

Anyone with an interest in the language will still be able to do it for the Leaving Cert! These are the people who are likely to continue to speak it once they finish school. Ones that don't have an interest in the language will have forgotten most of it within a few years of leaving school. So all making the language compulsory does is somewhat prolong ones knowledge of it for 2 years. Hardly a big deal.

Iwasfrozen

kraggy wrote: »

It'll be a sad day when more students will get to study Classical Studies instead of their country's language.

I doubt the demand is there for classical studies. :cool:

But if there is some school in D4 that has a majority of students pining for classical studies ahead of Irish then c'est la vie that's democracy for ya.

syklops

kraggy wrote: »

It't not my sole argument.

Let me ask you this: which would be better:

1. to make it optional and therfore reducing the number of young people being able to speak it to a certain standard; or

2. overhaul the system, make it interesting, reward students for being able to speak it instead of regurgitating on paper formulaic essays on the arguments for/against nuclear power?

I know which one I want.

By making it compulsory you are breeding contempt of the language into a percentage of numerous generations. This damages the language in the long term and lessens the likelihood of the language being adopted on a larger scale.

Snakeblood

kraggy wrote: »

Ok, let's do that with English too.

That would be silly, English is commercially useful as well as the lingua franca of the nation. Making nonessential things optional seems more sensible.


I'll put it clearly: English and Irish are not on equal terms. Saying they should be treated equally is wrong. It's a bad argument that makes no sense. In the battle between English and Irish languages, English won. You might not like it, but that's where we are. Compulsory Irish makes people hate doing Irish. It could be a great subject with lots of fun aspects to it, but people don't like not having a choice in learning, and there is less obvious benefit to Irish for most people than for any other compulsory subject.

Megatron_X

It's a vicious circle. People go through the school system, and either get taught badly or are left with a bad taste in their mouth. This leaves them with a bad attitude towards the language that, whether they mean to or not, is usually passed on to others around them.

Some of these people grow up to have kids and make sure that their kids have the same opinions on the language of them. From my experience, most kids don't make an effort in Irish simply because it's the norm to complain about it.

Others of the same people who have had bad experiences with the language decide to be primary school teachers. But they have to study Irish in their degree to teach in any Irish school. Since they aren't actually passionate about the language, probably the opposite, most aim for the bare minimum level of Irish to teach. Then, as they teach, their lackluster Irish as well as their biased attitude towards it is passed on to primary school kids who are growing in a way that they tend to accept other people's opinions instead of making their own.

In my opinion, the reason why most children who go to All-Irish primary schools actually like the language is because, for the most part, there is a higher standard of Irish required to teach there, which tends to rule out the kind of people I mentioned above. Since they are then taught to a proper standard and there is no inadvertent tainting of children's opinions, they tend to take to the language.

Anyway, the problems with the way Irish is being taught is detrimental to itself. The whole system needs to be purged. Irish being compulsory or optional doesn't really matter at all, kids need to be taught properly and given an actual chance to learn the language in primary school. That's where it all matters.

1. Bad curriculum
2. Unfortunately, students with bad Irish and left with a bad taste in their mouth
3. Students grow up to be teachers with bad Irish and bad experiences
4. These teachers with already bad Irish teach students who now have worse Irish and a horrible taste left in their mouth
   
5. Those students pass their opinions onto their future kids
6. Repeat.
   

arch_stanton

As several others have suggested, Irish at second level should be split along the lines of Irish Language and Irish Literature. Let those who want to study poetry, peig etc do so but don't force it on everyone else. The real priority should be on practical spoken Irish so that by the time we leave school we can at least hold a proper conversation.

Irish class should be an english free zone from day 1. All teaching and interaction should be through Irish. After leaving school I took up Spanish classes for my own interest and that's the way it works. After over a year with the same teacher I actually didn't know if he spoke English. More use should also be made of resources like TnaG which we didn't have back in the day. This at least shows the language in a modern, living context.

Despite some tweaking over the years the whole way Irish is taught and examined is wrong. I'm firmly convinced that at leaving cert level it's rigged to give good grades to very poor students. If it were examined properly the numbers failing would rise dramatically. Even with the new proposals to place more emphasis on the oral exam they're still up to the same tricks. Most of the oral will be based on describing what's happening in a picture or cartoon shown by the examiner. These pictures will be available to the students months in advance so we're back to learning off stock answers just like we do in the essays and poetry/literature portions of the written exam.

kraggy

Snakeblood wrote: »

That would be silly, English is commercially useful as well as the lingua franca of the nation. Making nonessential things optional seems more sensible.


I'll put it clearly: English and Irish are not on equal terms. Saying they should be treated equally is wrong. It's a bad argument that makes no sense. In the battle between English and Irish languages, English won. You might not like it, but that's where we are. Compulsory Irish makes people hate doing Irish. It could be a great subject with lots of fun aspects to it, but people don't like not having a choice in learning, and there is less obvious benefit to Irish for most people than for any other compulsory subject.

If your main reason for making it not compulsory is resources etc, why not cut other subjects like Classical Studies, Japanese, Lithuanian?

Why does Irish have to be targetted for cuts?

Snakeblood

kraggy wrote: »

If your main reason for making it not compulsory is resources etc, why not cut other subjects like Classical Studies, Japanese, Lithuanian?

Why does Irish have to be targetted for cuts?

Classical Studies, Japanese and Lithuanian aren't compulsory. If there aren't enough numbers to support them, they'll be cut.

Irish is compulsory, despite large numbers of people not wanting to do it.

Do you see there is a difference there?

syklops

kraggy wrote: »

If your main reason for making it not compulsory is resources etc, why not cut other subjects like Classical Studies, Japanese, Lithuanian?

Why does Irish have to be targetted for cuts?

But his main argument is not resources, his argument is along similar lines as me. By having it compulsory it damages the language. People want to be able to make their own choices when it comes to their own education. Forcing people to take the subject just makes people bitter towards the language. As has been pointed out, this bitterness breeds bitterness and over time the language becomes less popular.

Can you not see that having it as a compulsory language damages the language?

deise go deo

mickydoomsux wrote: »

A tiny percentage of people speak it and that's pretty much only out of being awkward "FOOK DA BRITS" dinosaurs.

It's a dead language, the vast majority if people in this country speak English, if Irish was made completely optional in schools it would be pretty much gone completely in 20-ish years.

That is extreamly ignorent. Irish speakers speak Irish, It is their first language, Get over it. It has nothing to do with Britain.:rolleyes:


Irish is NOT a dead language. By the definition of what a dead language is, Irish is not dead.

Roverek

Irish language is dying. You can try to keep it artificially, but it doesn't work. Changing the curriculum does nothing. Language should be learnt at home, and just polish at school. Most of Irish do not speak Irish, and they will not speak, thanks to compulsary Irish. English is the main language, and it will stay like this.
Could you tell me how the knowledge of Irish could help in dealing with IMF?
Maths that is the problem in schools with 48% unqualified teachers.
Knowledge of maths could help you to deal with IMF.
If you are rich with romantic love to Irish , learn it. Donot make others to pay for your romaticism.

Amhran Nua

Snakeblood wrote: »

I'll put it clearly: English and Irish are not on equal terms. Saying they should be treated equally is wrong. It's a bad argument that makes no sense. In the battle between English and Irish languages, English won.

But there wasn't a battle between English and Irish, there was a centuries long occupation by the English who made a determined, extended and violent effort to stamp out the Irish language. It's not like a panel of judges sat down one day and considered each on their individual merits. This isn't an "800 years" thing either, its hard reality.

Bottom line is, a determined effort was made to destroy it, now a determined effort is being made to restore it, and whatever else we can salvage from that time. And rightly so.

The Irish language is a vital part of our culture, and before anyone starts moaning about the value of culture, think about making the national flag a uniform grey sheet and stop the sale of all clothes in colours outside grey. People aren't machines, there's more than the sum of our biological parts in there.

It may be fashionable in some circles to reject the idea of a cultural identity, but really, grow up. Some of the most wonderful works of art, poetry, and creative effort grew from cultural identities, and I for one am very interested to see what works the artists of the future will produce. I find the bland ideal of "European" culture to be tedious and tasteless at best.

So lets talk about the value of culture; what value does it really have? Well one great example is the riverdance show and its derivatives, four times the population of this country have paid good hard cash to see it. Flatley has purchased a private castle for himself on the back of it, his great grandchildren need never work a day in their lives. I sure don't see anyone lining up for Morris dancing.

People like Irish culture, and want to get more of it, it has a solid, quantifiable economic value. And of course, language is a vital part of that - how would you feel if you went to say Japan and found everyone there conversing in English with a Texan drawl? You'd feel diminished, lessened, as though the world was a little less bright. And you wouldn't be going back either.

One other note: I don't think Inda has more than a cúpla focail himself, so we'll have a Taoiseach who doesn't speak the language of the nation. I'll still be voting FG, because god help us if "union friendly" Labour or the rest of them get into power, but he shouldn't be given free rein in this matter.

Overhaul the curriculum, now, don't remove it!

syklops

Amhran Nua wrote: »

But there wasn't a battle between English and Irish, there was a centuries long occupation by the English who made a determined, extended and violent effort to stamp out the Irish language. It's not like a panel of judges sat down one day and considered each on their individual merits. This isn't an "800 years" thing either, its hard reality.

Bottom line is, a determined effort was made to destroy it, now a determined effort is being made to restore it, and whatever else we can salvage from that time. And rightly so.

The Irish language is a vital part of our culture, and before anyone starts moaning about the value of culture, think about making the national flag a uniform grey sheet and stop the sale of all clothes in colours outside grey. People aren't machines, there's more than the sum of our biological parts in there.

It may be fashionable in some circles to reject the idea of a cultural identity, but really, grow up. Some of the most wonderful works of art, poetry, and creative effort grew from cultural identities, and I for one am very interested to see what works the artists of the future will produce. I find the bland ideal of "European" culture to be tedious and tasteless at best.

So lets talk about the value of culture; what value does it really have? Well one great example is the riverdance show and its derivatives, four times the population of this country have paid good hard cash to see it. Flatley has purchased a private castle for himself on the back of it, his great grandchildren need never work a day in their lives.

People like Irish culture, and want to get more of it, it has a solid, quantifiable economic value. And of course, language is a vital part of that - how would you feel if you went to say Japan and found everyone there conversing in English with a Texan drawl? You'd feel dimished, lessened, as though the world was a little less bright. And you wouldn't be going back either.

One other note: I don't think Inda has more than a cúpla focail himself, so we'll have a Taoiseach who doesn't speak the language of the nation. I'll still be voting FG, because god help us if "union friendly" Labour or the rest of them get into power, but he shouldn't be given free rein in this matter.

Overhaul the curriculum, now, don't remove it!

Enda Kenny is a fluent Irish speaker. He addressed the crowd who were protesting against him in Irish for several minutes.

Either way, why is that relevant?

My goal and that of several other people on this thread is not the death of the language. If anything it is the opposite, but making the teaching of irish compulsory hurts the language. More so than making it optional.

Amhran Nua

syklops wrote: »

Enda Kenny is a fluent Irish speaker. He addressed the crowd who were protesting against him in Irish for several minutes.

I stand corrected, I seem to recall reading that recently.

syklops wrote: »

My goal and that of several other people on this thread is not the death of the language. If anything it is the opposite, but making the teaching of irish compulsory hurts the language. More so than making it optional.

The way it is taught is hurting the language. That it is taught is not. My point is that it has a very real value, which might not be as immediately apparent as say physics or chemistry or the STEM subjects.

Snakeblood

Amhran Nua wrote: »

But there wasn't a battle between English and Irish, there was a centuries long occupation by the English who made a determined, extended and violent effort to stamp out the Irish language. It's not like a panel of judges sat down one day and considered each on their individual merits. This isn't an "800 years" thing either, its hard reality.

Overhaul the curriculum, now, don't remove it!

I think Irish has value but it needs to be taught to people who want to learn it. They'll learn better without people who are obviously disinterested in it. It's not essential to a student. Make it a better subject for study and more worthwhile.

I'm not suggesting it be removed from the curriculum, just that people not have to keep at it for the entirety of their school days. All you get from that is a small number of Irish speakers and a large number of people who have no interest and feel that they should have been offered a choice.

deise go deo

Roverek wrote: »

Irish language is dying. You can try to keep it artificially, but it doesn't work.

No it is not, Irish is growing, Just look at the figures for the growth of the Gaelscoil/GaelCholaiste movement over the last 30 years. Demand is still far ahead of supply.

Changing the curriculum does nothing.

Evidience?

Language should be learnt at home, and just polish at school. Most of Irish do not speak Irish, and they will not speak, thanks to compulsary Irish. English is the main language, and it will stay like this.
Could you tell me how the knowledge of Irish could help in dealing with IMF?
Maths that is the problem in schools with 48% unqualified teachers.
Knowledge of maths could help you to deal with IMF.
If you are rich with romantic love to Irish , learn it. Donot make others to pay for your romaticism.

Sorry but there isent a limited amount of space in someons head, You dont forget things when you learn other things. We can Improve Maths and still teach Irish. You offer a false choice.

Amhran Nua

Snakeblood wrote: »

I think Irish has value but it needs to be taught to people who want to learn it. They'll learn better without people who are obviously disinterested in it. It's not essential to a student. Make it a better subject for study and more worthwhile.

The dangers of utilitarian approaches to education are well understood. By that criteria every subject should be optional.

Snakeblood wrote: »

I'm not suggesting it be removed from the curriculum, just that people not have to keep at it for the entirety of their school days. All you get from that is a small number of Irish speakers and a large number of people who have no interest and feel that they should have been offered a choice.

I understand that. Here's the thing though, some people want to make creationism a part of the curriculum, not in Ireland, but it does emphasise the point that some things are important enough to make mandatory. I think the restoration of Irish to its status as a widespread national language is important enough, and I've outlined the reasons why.

The whole discussion is coloured by the experiences many posters here may have had with learning Irish in school. It was taught very badly, and still is. I know I had some fairly useless Irish teachers, helped not at all by a useless curriculum. I'm quite capable of putting that aside and looking at the bigger picture however, and I think most people are too.

Amhran Nua

Roverek wrote: »

and just polish at school

Wait, what?

LordSutch

mike65 wrote: »

Just heard it mentioned on radio.

Is this the saviour of the language?

Yes, I think it is > A great idea by Fine Gael, and one that should have been addressed decades ago. Both Enda Kenny & Sharon Ni Bheolain (of RTE fame) are fluent Irish speakers, and both advocate the easing of the mandatory nature of its teaching, Why? because decades of compulsory Irish has made many many people grow up to hate the language, (and most of us don't speak it), add to that the billions of Euro that are being spent & pumped into its compulsive teaching (with little reward over decades) and you can see that a relaxation might be the way to go.
Ease the compulsion & encourage the language through "non-draconian methods" > I think this is their message.

Amhran Nua

LordSutch wrote: »

because decades of compulsory Irish has made many many people grow up to hate the language

That would be decades of completely useless teaching methods and curriculums.

Roverek

deise go deo wrote: »

No it is not, Irish is growing, Just look at the figures for the growth of the Gaelscoil/GaelCholaiste movement over the last 30 years. Demand is still far ahead of supply.
.

At the foundation of the Irish State there were 250,000 fluent Irish speakers living in Irish-speaking or semi Irish-speaking areas, but the number now is between 20,000 and 30,000.

Compulsary Irish, well done.

LordSutch

Amhran Nua wrote: »

That would be decades of completely useless teaching methods and curriculums.

That is true.

deise go deo

Roverek wrote: »

At the foundation of the Irish State there were 250,000 fluent Irish speakers living in Irish-speaking or semi Irish-speaking areas, but the number now is between 20,000 and 30,000.

Compulsary Irish, well done.

How could compulsory Irish affect the Gaelthacht's? Why would it have a negative impact on them?

As for your claim that Irish is dying, can you provide evidience that shows that Irish is dying today? (Over the last 15 years or so)

Snakeblood

Amhran Nua wrote: »

The dangers of utilitarian approaches to education are well understood. By that criteria every subject should be optional.


I understand that. Here's the thing though, some people want to make creationism a part of the curriculum, not in Ireland, but it does emphasise the point that some things are important enough to make mandatory. I think the restoration of Irish to its status as a widespread national language is important enough, and I've outlined the reasons why.

The whole discussion is coloured by the experiences many posters here may have had with learning Irish in school. It was taught very badly, and still is. I know I had some fairly useless Irish teachers, helped not at all by a useless curriculum. I'm quite capable of putting that aside and looking at the bigger picture however, and I think most people are too.

Nah, English and Math for example in Ireland have proven they are useful to the overwhelming majority of students. People need those. They should be mandatory. Then after that there should be more of a choice given to students.


I'm capable also, I don't actually mind Irish and I had good teachers, but looking at it from my perspective then and now, I still don't understand why I had no choice in a language that I didn't want to learn and no one was able to explain why I was learning a language I'd never really be able to speak with others. That's not a chip on my shoulder about bad lessons, that was not seeing what sense learning Irish made. There are a lot of people who feel like me. I don't want my daughter to have to learn Irish. I'm thinking of sticking her in an Irish school, but I want that to be my and my daughters choice.

I see what you are saying, but whether someone learns Irish or not doesn't make them bad citizens, and doesn't fill their head with rubbish. It *might* help with a sense of national identity (although I'm not sure it has so far) but my current belief is that people have to be willing to learn Irish to successfully learn it, and most aren't.

I'm fine with Irish as a national language, I think it's an uphill struggle, and I think that there'll have to be some sort of need for Irish to make it regain something like its former importance. Like if Sinn Fein came to power on a nationalist fervour after the entire country goes belly up, it might provide a spark for the revival, but at the moment I don't see the spark, and I think forcing people to do something extinguishes any possible spark. There needs to be an advantage to Irish. it can be an emotional one, but it was never made clear.

Anyway, I think I'm done with this as we're not really going to convince each other of what at the moment is opinion, but it was interesting. Cheers!

Guy:Incognito

david75 wrote: »

Lotta people all this country still living in 3rd world conditions, but even if they aren't, should we let our heritage and culture die .

Why force "heritage and culture" on people that dotn want it?

If the only thing keeping Irish people as Irish is the language, then my opinion is "Meh".

Mental Mickey

Guy:Incognito wrote: »

Why force "heritage and culture" on people that dotn want it?

If the only thing keeping Irish people as Irish is the language, then my opinion is "Meh".

Very insightful. :rolleyes:

Amhran Nua

Snakeblood wrote: »

Nah, English and Math for example in Ireland have proven they are useful to the overwhelming majority of students. People need those. They should be mandatory.

Really? How many people use maths beyond basic arithmetic on a regular basis? How many people use what they learned from Shakespeare on a regular basis? If you look at it from a utilitarian perspective, neither of these subjects are at all vital. I'm playing devil's advocate here, but that doesn't mean the issued rasied are wrong.

Snakeblood wrote: »

That's not a chip on my shoulder about bad lessons, that was not seeing what sense learning Irish made.

I hope the points I have made have helped in explaining at least some of what sense it can make.

Snakeblood wrote: »

at the moment I don't see the spark, and I think forcing people to do something extinguishes any possible spark.

I don't know, I think a lot of people would be quite happy to learn Irish even as adults if they were presented with an intelligent and enjoyable curriculum which does not at this time exist. That depends on the circles you move in of course, but it would certainly reflect my experiences on the matter.

LordSutch

Snakeblood wrote: »

Nah, English and Math for example in Ireland have proven they are useful to the overwhelming majority of students. People need those. They should be mandatory. Then after that there should be more of a choice given to students.

Well indeed, English & Maths are among several subjects that should be compulory, but I think a choice of language would be nice, so instead of compulsive Irish, maybe a choice between Irish, German, Spanish, or French (for example) would be the selection?

Snakeblood wrote: »

I'm fine with Irish as a national language, I think it's an uphill struggle, and I think that there'll have to be some sort of need for Irish to make it regain something like its former importance. Like if Sinn Fein came to power on a nationalist fervour after the entire country goes belly up, it might provide a spark for the revival, but at the moment I don't see the spark, and I think forcing people to do something extinguishes any possible spark. There needs to be an advantage to Irish. it can be an emotional one, but it was never made clear.

'Spark' is right, but we certainly don't need the Shinners for that, and anyway, I thought they had stopped that kinda carry on

Guy:Incognito

Mental Mickey wrote: »

Very insightful. :rolleyes:

Oh, my appologies, should I tow the line and join groups to demand Irish be beaten in to everyone in the country?

Peopel should be free to make their own choices and if those choices coflict with yours and you see that as dilluting Irish culture, well thats your problem, not anyone elses. You go have whatever culture and values suit you and I'll have mine. Just dont try force yours on me.


I was forced to learn Irish right up to leaving cert (even though I made a conscious decision to attend a German school here for 2nd level)and I have never once had the need or inclination to use any of it outside of the classroom.

kraggy

Snakeblood wrote: »

Classical Studies, Japanese and Lithuanian aren't compulsory. If there aren't enough numbers to support them, they'll be cut.

Irish is compulsory, despite large numbers of people not wanting to do it.

Do you see there is a difference there?

syklops wrote: »

But his main argument is not resources, his argument is along similar lines as me. By having it compulsory it damages the language. People want to be able to make their own choices when it comes to their own education. Forcing people to take the subject just makes people bitter towards the language. As has been pointed out, this bitterness breeds bitterness and over time the language becomes less popular.

Can you not see that having it as a compulsory language damages the language?

I can see you are both coming from, and indeed, forcing people to do a subject that is taught badly with boring content is definitely a way to turn people off it.

However, if you revamp the curriculum, make it interesting, relevant and give the majority of the marks for oral, then you'll increase the percentage of people who want to do it.

Many people can't stand maths. Should we make that an optional subject too? Afterall, when are we going to have to prove the binomial theorem or calculate the cosine of an angle in the real world?

TeddyTedson

Why are they protesting? If people want to learn Irish they can still do it for the leaving cert, forcing people who don't want to is just pointless.
If they really want to revive the language they should just start making all primary schools thought through Irish.

Snakeblood

Amhran Nua wrote: »

Really? How many people use maths beyond basic arithmetic on a regular basis? How many people use what they learned from Shakespeare on a regular basis? If you look at it from a utilitarian perspective, neither of these subjects are at all vital. I'm playing devil's advocate here, but that doesn't mean the issued rasied are wrong.


I hope the points I have made have helped in explaining at least some of what sense it can make.


I don't know, I think a lot of people would be quite happy to learn Irish even as adults if they were presented with an intelligent and enjoyable curriculum which does not at this time exist. That depends on the circles you move in of course, but it would certainly reflect my experiences on the matter.

Well, I'd think Maths is a basic building block for any further numeracy related learning to come (and many students do go on to further education where skills beyond numeracy are required), I'd guess at a rate far past the (wikipedia sourced) 70-80 thousand daily use Irish speakers in the world.

Ditto English, which (I covered this in a previous post) encourages critical thinking and analysis, and the ability to communicate well with others. I would think they are vital to interpret complicated concepts of our troublesome modern world. With that said, I did my best to ignore Maths as a subject.

Irish at present *doesn't* help the vast majority who learn it communicate with others which is a major problem with it. It's ignoring the main purpose of a language. English does that job in Ireland, and I don't think Irish has the advantages necessary to take back its spot. Culturally it would be nice to have, but I don't see it happening, and if it doesn't have a genuine utility, then at best it will be an affectation.

Yes, it does make more sense, but not enough to justify removing choice from the equation, for me.

I think many adults and children would be happy to learn Irish. I think that they should have the choice, certainly.

I'm not 100% on utility, but I don't think it can be ignored.What benefit does it give to the man in the street who is on the fence whether to greet someone in Irish or English to choose Irish?

Guy:Incognito

kraggy wrote: »

Many people can't stand maths. Should we make that an optional subject too? Afterall, when are we going to have to prove the binomial theorem or calculate the cosine of an angle in the real world?

Knowign how to do these things can be usefull to a lot of 3rd level courses and can also get the brain working in different ways that can be used for much lower level stuff through life. What benefit can being thought Irish have that cant be replicated by learning another language that a person could well find usefull and can make use of later in life?

TeddyTedson wrote: »

If they really want to revive the language they should just start making all primary schools thought through Irish.

Where do the foreign kids or even Irish kids returning here from living abroad fit in with that model?

deise go deo

Guy:Incognito wrote: »

Where do the foreign kids or even Irish kids returning here from living abroad fit in with that model?

Well they would fit in just like everyone else, They would learn Irish in that model through Immersion education just like they do now in Gaelscoileanna.

Amhran Nua

Snakeblood wrote: »

Well, I'd think Maths is a basic building block for any further numeracy related learning to come (and many students do go on to further education where skills beyond numeracy are required), I'd guess at a rate far past the (wikipedia sourced) 70-80 thousand daily use Irish speakers in the world.

Ditto English, which (I covered this in a previous post) encourages critical thinking and analysis, and the ability to communicate well with others. I would think they are vital to interpret complicated concepts of our troublesome modern world. With that said, I did my best to ignore Maths as a subject.

But the overwhelming majority of people won't use maths beyond the barest basics, and you need a philosophy course to teach critical thinking, not English, where you can learn literary analysis, another skill of highly debatable value. And even with that I'd question the level of English that many people leaving school actually have. Perhaps another area where the course could use some revision?

Either way there's no more of a pressing need for these subjects to be mandatory than Irish, if you look at it in a hard light. Which is why the bigger picture needs to be taken into account, not simply will you personally be saying hello to people in one language or another.

I'll leave it there for now since AH isn't the best forum to discuss these things, but I'll just briefly summarise what I'm saying:

• The value of subjects goes beyond their immediate utility, which is why some are mandatory
• Culture has a very real and quantifiable value, not just in hard capital
• The Irish language is a vital part of our culture
• The Irish language curriculum is a train wreck at the moment, I think a lot less people would be opposed to it being mandatory if it was taugh in a reasonably sane fashion

Guy:Incognito

deise go deo wrote: »

Well they would fit in just like everyone else, They would learn Irish in that model through Immersion education just like they do now in Gaelscoileanna.

Not all kids are there to start at jumior infants is what I mean. Every year I'm sure there are kids around the country startign school in Ireland for the first time in each age group. Meaning you'll have a kid, be they a foreign kid coming here for the first time or an Irish kid returning that will go in to the school system at every age from 4 right up to 18. If everythign is thought through Irish, where do these kids fit in, given that they may well have never heard a word of the language in their lives. You cant just drop a 12 year old just arrived from Lituania in to an Irish school and assume all will be fine.