Fine Gael policy to end compusory Irish till Leaving Cert

hotmail.com

English is our national language despite what our constitution says. Irish hasn't been spoken for generations and generations for most Irish people.

Why do people insist on saying it's our national language or that it's our national tongue? It's not.

Seanchai

KerranJast wrote: »

As a nation we are much better off economically having English as our primary language.

I'm not quite sure if it's the ignorance or the inferiority complex of this particular view which bothers me most. I don't know how the Finns, Norwegians or Swedes - to take three examples of many - manage to have highly successful economies, and far more successful societies than Britain, Ireland or the US while using languages other than English.

Less of the inferiority complex, please.

Krusader

hotmail.com wrote: »

English is our national language despite what our constitution says. Irish hasn't been spoken for generations and generations for most Irish people.

Why do people insist on saying it's our national language or that it's our national tongue? It's not.

it is, we have 2 national languages, aren't we a lucky country, embrace both of them

Seanchai

hotmail.com wrote: »

English is our national language despite what our constitution says. Irish hasn't been spoken for generations and generations for most Irish people.

Why do people insist on saying it's our national language or that it's our national tongue? It's not.

I was under the impression that the English language is the "national" language of the nation named England.

Radical or what. :rolleyes:

Seanchai

Crosáidí wrote: »

it is, we have 2 national languages, aren't we a lucky country, embrace both of them

2 official languages; 1 national language, to be precise:

Article 8

1. The Irish language as the national language is the first official language.


2. The English language is recognised as a second official language.

Bunreacht na hÉireann

Seanchai

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Yes, that's the case with every optional subject. Schools can't please everyone so resources should go to the most popular subjects. The time of Irish being afforded a special place is thankfully drawing to a close.

Yes, we should only have a special place for forcing the English language and Maths syllabi on Irish students. After all, Shakespearian poetry and quadratic equations are so amazingly useful to Irish people. :rolleyes:

But we don't hear Fine Gael objecting to compulsory Maths and English in the Leaving Certificate despite the uselessness of both subjects' syllabi to the vast majority of Irish students. Well done, Fine Gael. Pseudo-intellectual kings of Irish politics once again.

hotmail.com

Seanchai wrote: »

2 official languages; 1 national language, to be precise:

Article 8

1. The Irish language as the national language is the first official language.


2. The English language is recognised as a second official language.

Bunreacht na hÉireann

We should have a referendum to change that then. Maybe then people like you will get over the fact that the vast vast majority speak English in this country.

orourkeda

Seanchai wrote: »

Yes, we should only have a special place for forcing the English language and Maths syllabi on Irish students. After all, Shakespearian poetry and quadratic equations are so amazingly useful to Irish people. :rolleyes:

It's the compulsory nature of the three subjects that's the real issue. A LC students main priority should be preparing for college or work. The key is selecting the subjects that best suit their needs.

Wibbs

Seanchai wrote: »

I was under the impression that the English language is the "national" language of the nation named England.

Plus the US, Canada, Australia and good chunk of the rest of the world. Technically english was never made official in Britain AFAIK(trivial pursuit question that one:)).

Seanchai

hotmail.com wrote: »

Maybe then people like you will get over the fact that the vast vast majority speak English in this country.

Maybe then people like you will get over the fact that 'national' and 'official' are not synonymous and contending that English is the 'national' language of Ireland is just, well, silly (not to mention an offensive act of cultural robbery in the eyes of people in England).

orourkeda

Seanchai wrote: »

Maybe then people like you will get over the fact that 'national' and 'official' are not synonymous and contending that English is the 'national' language of Ireland is just, well, silly (not to mention an offensive act of cultural robbery in the eyes of people in England).

English is one of the two official languages of Ireland isn't it?

baltimore sun

I think that the example of the Isle of Man should be taken into consideration. The Manx language was pronounced dead in the 1970s but have since sees a revival....they're got a generation of native-speakers now.

I dont know too much about it to be honest, but if a far smaller island can do that then there's no reason Ireland cannot too.

hotmail.com

baltimore sun wrote: »

I think that the example of the Isle of Man should be taken into consideration. The Manx language was pronounced dead in the 1970s but have since sees a revival....they're got a generation of native-speakers now.

I dont know too much about it to be honest, but if a far smaller island can do that then there's no reason Ireland cannot too.

If you don't know much about, why are you citing this as an example for Ireland to copy. For all you know that "generation" could be about a dozen people.

Wibbs

deise go deo wrote: »

You think it is valid to compare a Cultural Interest group with a violent Criminal Gang?:rolleyes:

LOL

Well until they get a sense of humour I will. Common thread running through too many of the gaelgoire's/chuckies. Less an issue with actual native Irish speakers I've found.

Nope, its not that.:rolleyes:

Actually it is "that". Take away those who are speaking juvenile or cod urban "Gaelige", those who have a piss poor vocab and make hay with a cupla focal and you would be lucky to get 40,000. Restrict the number to folks who learned generational Irish before or just before English and you can knock that number even more.

Care to back up these claims? You know, with evidience? Some Gaelscoileanna dont get any state funding.

Come off it. Irish schools on average have smaller classes. That's a fact. This makes a huge difference to the students. More attentive teachers on the back of that. Parents who actively take charge of their kids schooling are usually brighter sparks to start with and that's gonna stack the odds. A helluva lot of parents send their kids to such schools, not because of Irish but because of these differences. Some even send them because of the lack of non Irish/non english speakers perceived to hold the classes back. It's not new BTW. Similar were running in Ireland in the 40's and 50's. My mother was schooled through the medium of Irish back then. Ditto with one of her brothers. All the way through secondary school(which is damned hard even today). In Jackeen central too. Neither can speak it today.

Ah, so much opinion, so little evidience. Care to show evidience of an 'Qverwhelming downward trend' for Irish in recent times? Anything? Anything at all?

The fact you're having this conversation Ted. And that you're concerned that the removal of it being compulsory would have a not too good knockon effect on this clearly vibrant and growing language....

Shít I grew up with the Fainne(sp) wearers and their ilk. Loads of programmes on the goggle box as Gaelige. The annual trek to the gaeltacht, etc. For some, the minority, it was for the love of the language and fair play, but for the majority it was because of exams and the need for the language for many careers. Incidentally a need that was higher in the past until some sensible types fought to get it revoked.

If you believe that the language is reasserting itself and is in rude good health, then why worry about removing it's many crutches? It can either stand up with, as you claim the majority of the Irish people behind it(and god forbid actually speaking it) or it will fall. More likely it will stay a small but vibrant language that may actually have more hope of growth.

Seanchai

orourkeda wrote: »

English is one of the two official languages of Ireland isn't it?

Yes, as I've just said; but 'official' and 'national' are not synonymous.

4zn76tysfajdxp

This thread reminds me of school.

"I don't care about Irish."

"RAAAWWWRRRRR!!!! IT'S OUR HERITAGE! RAAAWWWRRRRR!!!! CULTURE!!!! 1916! BRITS OUT BRITS OUT COME ON YOU HOOPS!11!!! RAAAWWWRRRRR!!!!"

baltimore sun

hotmail.com wrote: »

If you don't know much about, why are you citing this as an example for Ireland to copy. For all you know that "generation" could be about a dozen people.

no need to be nasty about it :rolleyes:
I just wondering if anyone knew any more about it.

I'd love to be able to speak better Irish, but just because I'd like to be able to talk about english speaker without them knowing what I'm saying about them

Féach ar an cailín thall, fuair sí ar aghaidh mar a bheadh mála casúir
That's probably wrong but I can only try.

Krusader

baltimore sun wrote: »

Féach ar an gcailín thall, Tá a haghaidh cosúil le mála casúr

Cabhróidh mé leat, a mhac

baltimore sun

Crosáidí wrote: »

Cabhróidh mé leat, a mhac

go raibh míle

deise go deo

Wibbs wrote: »

Well until they get a sense of humour I will. Common thread running through too many of the gaelgoire's/chuckies. Less an issue with actual native Irish speakers I've found.

Talk about Ignorent:rolleyes: Honestly where do you get this stuff?

Actually it is "that". Take away those who are speaking juvenile or cod urban "Gaelige", those who have a piss poor vocab and make hay with a cupla focal and you would be lucky to get 40,000. Restrict the number to folks who learned generational Irish before or just before English and you can knock that number even more.

What is 'Urban Gaeilge'?
I suppose English speakers who dont affect an Oxford acent are 'Cod' English Sepakers?

Simple fact is (But dont let that get in the way of your rant) there are around 72'000 people who use Irish as their daily means of communication. There are more people than that fluent in the language, But due to not living in an Irish speaking community they dont have the oppertunity to use it every day.

Come off it. Irish schools on average have smaller classes. That's a fact. This makes a huge difference to the students. More attentive teachers on the back of that. Parents who actively take charge of their kids schooling are usually brighter sparks to start with and that's gonna stack the odds. A helluva lot of parents send their kids to such schools, not because of Irish but because of these differences. Some even send them because of the lack of non Irish/non english speakers perceived to hold the classes back. It's not new BTW. Similar were running in Ireland in the 40's and 50's. My mother was schooled through the medium of Irish back then. Ditto with one of her brothers. All the way through secondary school(which is damned hard even today). In Jackeen central too. Neither can speak it today.

If its a fact, then there will be evidience to support it, If not then its your opinion, Considering that most Gaelscoileanna have long waiting lists I can think of any reason why they would have smaller class sizes.

You claim that Irish schools have 'on average have smaller classes' Back up your claim. Where are the figures that this 'average' is based on?

The fact you're having this conversation Ted. And that you're concerned that the removal of it being compulsory would have a not too good knockon effect on this clearly vibrant and growing language....

My name isent Ted:rolleyes: How about having a grown up debate.

Now, You claimed that Irish has and is in a downward trend, When asked to back it up, instead of anything like evidience you just splutter and waffel.
I can show actual evidience that Irish Is growing, I can support my claims, How about you?

Shít I grew up with the Fainne(sp) wearers and their ilk. Loads of programmes on the goggle box as Gaelige. The annual trek to the gaeltacht, etc. For some, the minority, it was for the love of the language and fair play, but for the majority it was because of exams and the need for the language for many careers. Incidentally a need that was higher in the past until some sensible types fought to get it revoked.

The number of jobs requiring Irish is growing these days, but that dosent tally with your argument so I suppose it dosent count.

If you believe that the language is reasserting itself and is in rude good health, then why worry about removing it's many crutches? It can either stand up with, as you claim the majority of the Irish people behind it(and god forbid actually speaking it) or it will fall. More likely it will stay a small but vibrant language that may actually have more hope of growth.

I believe the language is growing, That growth will be stunted and reversed by FG's policys and that is why I oppose them.





Wibbs, You have made several claims, Provide evidience for them or stop calling them facts, Choice is yours.

Krusader

You can't have a discussion with Wibbs, he/she is the most condescending poster on Boards and by the Gaeilgóir/chucky remark ignorant aswell, do what i did put him/her on your ignore list

4zn76tysfajdxp

deise go deo wrote: »

Simple fact is (But dont let that get in the way of your rant) there are around 72'000 people who use Irish as their daily means of communication. There are more people than that fluent in the language, But due to not living in an Irish speaking community they dont have the oppertunity to use it every day.

Many fluent Irish speaking people in the Irish speaking community speak English to each other. Lots and lots. They have the opportunity to speak it every day, what's stopping them?

mickydoomsux

mickydoomsux wrote: »

About time. We need to completely do away with Irish being taught in schools, it's a waste of time.

Replace it with a international language that actually has some kind of value.

Ah sure, aren't we all humans? Let's do away with this whole "nation" bullcrap

take away the queen, and burn the beefeater uniforms.

Level the Vatican, it's all bullsh*t anyway.

Art? Would ya ever f*ck off, it's a slat of paint on a wall.

Why the f*ck are the yanks spending so much money protecting a few hundred year old sheet of paper? the Constitution? Would ya ever f*ck off. those cops need to be on the street not protecting some rag!

GET BACK TO WORK ALL OF YIZ! Culture's a waste of money. And money is everything.

orourkeda

Deleted User wrote: »

Ah sure, aren't we all humans? Let's do away with this whole "nation" bullcrap

take away the queen, and burn the beefeater uniforms.

Level the Vatican, it's all bullsh*t anyway.

Art? Would ya ever f*ck off, it's a slat of paint on a wall.

Why the f*ck are the yanks spending so much money protecting a few hundred year old sheet of paper? the Constitution? Would ya ever f*ck off. those cops need to be on the street not protecting some rag!

GET BACK TO WORK ALL OF YIZ! Culture's a waste of money. And money is everything.

What your post fails to acknowledge is the fact that irish is COMPULSORY in our schools.

Ones views on nationalism, burning beefeaters uniforms, religion, art, U.S law enforcement and "culture" are not compulsory in the leaving cert and are not relevant in any way to this thread.

heyjude

deise go deo wrote: »

Ya, Not to mention that the majority want Irish to stay compulsory.






Talking of emotive arguments:rolleyes:

The vast majority of people support Irish, The majority want Irish to remain a compulsory subject, Those who dont want to learn Irish can easily get themselves exempt(There is no requirment to sit the exam)

The majority want Irish to stay compulsory(?) and the vast majority of people support Irish and the majority want Irish to remain a compulsory subject(!)

When was the referendum/plebiscite that established this majority support for compulsory Irish ? I don't recall ever being asked my opinion on the issue, I assume that you may be referring to an opinion poll which showed that, but as you are probably aware you can get any result you want in an opinion poll, it just depends on the way you phrase the question. In any case, if such opinion polls are so reliable, why do we bother with elections, why not just use the result one of the many opinion polls ?

Besides, the change wouldn't remove the right of any parent to have their child study Irish to leaving cert, it merely removes the compulsion on a child to do so. As for the suggestion that those who don't want to be forced to learn Irish, have the option of not sitting the exam, what would that achieve ? if you don't want to study a subject and have no intention of taking the exam, you probably wouldn't bother turning up for Irish classes either.

deise go deo

heyjude wrote: »

T
When was the referendum/plebiscite that established this majority support for compulsory Irish ? I don't recall ever being asked my opinion on the issue, I assume that you may be referring to an opinion poll which showed that, but as you are probably aware you can get any result you want in an opinion poll, it just depends on the way you phrase the question. In any case, if such opinion polls are so reliable, why do we bother with elections, why not just use the result one of the many opinion polls ?

Your argument might hold if it wasent for the fact that it is not just one but several opinion polls(All existing polls actually) That have shown that the majority of people support the language.

As for the suggestion that those who don't want to be forced to learn Irish, have the option of not sitting the exam, what would that achieve ? if you don't want to study a subject and have no intention of taking the exam, you probably wouldn't bother turning up for Irish classes either.

Its not a suggestion, Its the reality today, There is no requirement in the current system to sit the exam, There is no penalty (other than failing that particular exam) for not sitting the exam, it dosent affect anything else if you don't sit it. You dont fail the LC, You just have a NG for Irish.

MysticalRain

There is a big difference between people claiming to "support the Irish language" in an opinion poll and wanting to keep it as a compulsory subject in schools.

heyjude

deise go deo wrote: »

Its not a suggestion, Its the reality today, There is no requirement in the current system to sit the exam, There is no penalty (other than failing that particular exam) for not sitting the exam, it dosent affect anything else if you don't sit it. You dont fail the LC, You just have a NG for Irish.

Your missing the point though, there is an high opportunity cost in studying Irish, in that if I'm studying Irish for 3 hrs a week, then thats 3 hrs a week that I could be using to study another subject, but which I am prevented from doing so.

You are advocating that a student who doesn't want to study Irish to LC should still be required to be enrolled in Irish classes for the full two year LC cycle(spending hundreds of hours learning nothing - since there's no point in trying to learn if you don't intend taking the exam), but that produces an even worse outcome than someone who makes no effort at present and fails Irish, in that if studying Irish wasn't compulsory, a student who isn't interested in Irish might be able to usefully study another subject that they are interested in, instead of languishing in an Irish class or skipping class(for these hundreds of hours).

deise go deo

MysticalRain wrote: »

There is a big difference between people claiming to "support the Irish language" in an opinion poll and wanting to keep it as a compulsory subject in schools.

I know, 93% claim to support the Irish language, 65% Support compulsion(Different poll)

deise go deo

heyjude wrote: »

Your missing the point though, there is an high opportunity cost in studying Irish, in that if I'm studying Irish for 3 hrs a week, then thats 3 hrs a week that I could be using to study another subject, but which I am prevented from doing so.

You are advocating that a student who doesn't want to study Irish to LC should still be required to be enrolled in Irish classes for the full two year LC cycle(spending hundreds of hours learning nothing - since there's no point in trying to learn if you don't intend taking the exam), but that produces an even worse outcome than someone who makes no effort at present and fails Irish, in that if studying Irish wasn't compulsory, a student who isn't interested in Irish might be able to usefully study another subject that they are interested in, instead of languishing in an Irish class or skipping class(for these hundreds of hours).

Im not advocating it, Im pointing out the situation as it is today.

MysticalRain

deise go deo wrote: »

I know, 93% claim to support the Irish language, 65% Support compulsion(Different poll)

Can you post a link to that?

flahavaj

If they really wanted to teach a language that'll be useful in the future they should start teaching Chinese.

Dionysus

Lindsey Glamorous Mailman wrote: »

This thread reminds me of school.

"I don't care about Irish."

"RAAAWWWRRRRR!!!! IT'S OUR HERITAGE! RAAAWWWRRRRR!!!! CULTURE!!!! 1916! BRITS OUT BRITS OUT COME ON YOU HOOPS!11!!! RAAAWWWRRRRR!!!!"

In fairness, this thread has been more an exercise in cultural cringe with expressions against Irish going considerably beyond something moderate like "I don't care about Irish". More like the usual "Irish is a dead language" and using emotive claims like Irish is "forced" down people's throats (as if school, never mind maths and English, is not "forced" down people's throats), and so on. For some reason you're portraying people who oppose these views as the irrational ones.

deise go deo

MysticalRain wrote: »

Can you post a link to that?

I cant link to it directly, though this link dose reference it.

65% of people are of the option that Irish should be compulsory for the Leaving Cert (Ipsos MRBI 2010)

TaraFoxglove

If I had been given the choice to drop Irish for the LC, I would have done without a second's hesitation.

I really resented having to give time to it that I could have given to other subjects. In the end, I gave it no time at all. I got a great LC. Did 6 subjects to Honours level. I was more interested in some than others, but I did well at all of them (including French, English and Maths).

I got a D2 in Ordinary Level Irish...

Caliden

For me at the leaving cert, honours irish was a matter of being able to recite pages and pages of notes relating to poems and stories.
For the aural test, I didnt have a clue what they were saying half the time and once I heard similar words to that of the question I would put down everything that was said in that sentence in the hope of a few marks.
Oral was a matter of learning different phrases and attempting to speak irish on the fly which was probably pig irish and grammar all over the place.

In the end I got a C2 in honours irish and for the life of me can't remember a single thing that I learnt off.

Cathaoirleach

The Irish curriculum was flawed from day one. It has to be overhauled entirely, but the government are simply not interested enough to do anything. Why should they? There's no money in it for them.

The billions of euros wasted on dead-end schemes for the language when we could have used that money to build new Gaeilscoils and Gaelcholaistí.

Oral should be mandatory for the LC, with Irish literature as an option. It's the best we can do in an already rotten education system.

Fine Gael are simply taking the easy route out and abandoning the Irish curriculum altogether.

Once Irish is made optional, there will be no going back. The vast majority of children will drop Irish for the LC.

It would be impossible to re-introduce mandatory Irish for a new generation of Irish children and parents.

Another nail in the coffin for the Irish language by her own people.

Comhghairdeas leat, a Enda, is fealltóir thú.

TaraFoxglove

Cathaoirleach wrote: »

Oral should be mandatory for the LC, with Irish literature as an option.

Oral is mandatory, isn't it? Well, it was when I did my LC in 2001.

Cathaoirleach

TaraFoxglove wrote: »

Oral is mandatory, isn't it? Well, it was when I did my LC in 2001.

I think you've missed the subject of this thread.

Fine Gael want to make Irish optional after the JC. I suggest overhauling the curriculum instead, and making Irish literature optional, but Irish Oral mandatory.

TaraFoxglove

Cathaoirleach wrote: »

I think you've missed the subject of this thread.

No, I haven't missed the point. You said in your post that oral should be mandatory. I'm simply pointing out that it already is.

You must mean that Irish language should be compulsory, rather than Irish literature. There's more to the language part than the oral side.

I don't agree. It should completely optional as a subject.

Cathaoirleach

TaraFoxglove wrote: »

No, I haven't missed the point. You said in your post that oral should be mandatory. I'm simply pointing out that it already is.

I know it already is. I said 'should', as in, Irish Oral should remain mandatory.

Poems, essays, etc, should be a different, optional subject.

TaraFoxglove

Cathaoirleach wrote: »

I know it already is. I said 'should', as in, Irish Oral should remain mandatory.

Poems, essays, etc, should be a different, optional subject.

I got confused because the language side, as opposed to the literature side, is about more than just oral Irish. French language only is taught in schools but oral comprises only a small part of it.

Cathaoirleach

TaraFoxglove wrote: »

I got confused because the language side, as opposed to the literature side, is about more than just oral Irish. French language only is taught in schools but oral comprises only a small part of it.

I invisage mandatory Irish classes being mostly oral and aural, with comhrá workshops and 20% reading and writing. The aim is to immerse students and to get them to speak in Irish to each other.

If some students want to do Irish literature, they can do so, but it would be optional.

The French curriculum isn't working either, and also needs to focus more on oral/aural IMO.

TaraFoxglove

Cathaoirleach wrote: »

The French curriculum isn't working either, and also needs to focus more on oral/aural IMO.

The French curriculum isn't perfect but is far superior to the Irish one, IMO.

Can anyone explain why the Irish language is so important? I don't consider it a very important piece of our history or heritage... All it is is a method of communication.

chessguy

Hi folks I speak 5 languages , when I first came to Ireland I thought it might be a good idea to learn the "Irish" language ,
but to my amazement I know of only one single person that speaks "Irish"
I have many Irish friends.

My children, like many Irish citizens have to take Irish in school ,
they do not attend an all Irish School where the language is spoken all day>

Their Irish homework consumes most of their study time , I find this absurd.

Many of my native Irish friends also have the same issues with their childrens homework.

Language is simply a form of communication , it is neither national heritage, nor culture,

I strongly believe as the language is no longer required for daily use it should not be compulsory but optional in schools for all children.
And this should be put to a national vote,

However I do consider Irish history important as a citizen of Ireland.

Yet In my older sons school they have to choose between Geography and History, History was was selected but no space so he was put in the Geography class instead, , so he is not taught History at all,
but "Irish instead which is of no use at all..

regards
Chessguy

Cathaoirleach

Deleted User wrote: »

Can anyone explain why the Irish language is so important? I don't consider it a very important piece of our history or heritage... All it is is a method of communication.

I thought the same thing when I was in school. I hated Irish. But then again, I didn't enjoy school in general.

It was only after I travelled the world for a few years that I started to take interest in Irish, and Irish culture in general. I felt I was lacking in identity somewhat.

In 2006, I went to Irish classes in GaelChultúr for 2 months and I have become relatively proficient since by speaking to friends (who went to Irish Colleges) and reading Irish books, watching TG4, etc. It has opened up a whole new world for me.

I just want other Irish people to discover and enjoy this language like I have. The Irish language is something we should all be proud of.

IMO, it should remain compulsory, but only if it focuses on oral/aural, and that students are able to converse with each other proficiently at the end of the curriculum.

Peig, poems, essays, etc, should be a different, optional subject.

nessie911

mickydoomsux wrote: »

Nah, got better things to do with my time.

Irish is a dead language. It's an utter waste of time and money to teach it, translate all government documents into Irish, etc. We are global citizens now, we have no time for teaching something that a tiny percentage of people on our tiny little island use.

That is in your opinion, and it is a bit of an insult to people who would like to learn Irish, and people who live there daily lives threw Irish, saying "its a waste of time and money".

"we are global Citizens now", so we should change who we are to suit others, god your smart. How do other countries manage to keep there own language.

Maybe we could see can we get a global ban on all languages other than english, then it would be so much easer and no one would be wasting there time or money.

There does need to be an over haul of how it is taught, and parents also need to make the effort to help there children learn it.

I know that when i have children i will be making the effort to send them to Irish schools, as i do wan them to have a strong grasp of the language.

Cathaoirleach, how can you say it should stay compulsory when you yourself say you learned it fine by yourself when you decided to at a later age?


edit. tongue twister.

neil_hosey

i dont like this idea.

i would love to see it broken down into 2 options.

1. Take it as a leaving cert option in its current form with a revised curriculum (less focus on proes/ poetry)

2. You can drop irish, but you must still study conversational irish, which does not go towards ur leaving cert results.