Fine Gael policy to end compusory Irish till Leaving Cert

chessguy

Irish schools =Irish is compulsory

Other schools = Irish is optional

This would soon resolve the issue..without ,treading on toes...

It is not a matter of personal opinion or preferance , as some reflect "It opened my eyes etc, after learning Irish.
cave paintings may do this for some ,no pun intended.Does not mean that the study of cave paintings should be compulsory.

some do feel it is important for their children , and others do not feel it is relevant at all.

so the choice should be there for the making..showing respect to all concerned..

chessguy

Mike 1972

kraggy wrote: »

But to deny children the chance to study it for Leaving Cert is wrong. That's what taking away compulsory Gaeilge would do.

Do you actually know what the word compulsary means ?

deise go deo wrote: »

I know, 93% claim to support the Irish language

So why arent they most of them actually speaking it ?

Are they liars, hypocrites or both ?

El Siglo

I did HL Irish in school, hated every minute of it. Never could grasp the language. Not to say I don't respect it, but it wasn't my forte. If I could've taken another subject instead of it I would have. If the same amount of time and effort was given towards producing better; maths, chemistry, physics and computer studies curricula then we wouldn't be so knee deep in shit as we are now. We need better science graduates over the next couple of years lest we fall behind the rest of Europe (we are already because we're not even a member of CERN). So, restructure the Irish curriculum, make it optional while restructuring the science subjects.

Cathaoirleach

chessguy wrote: »

Language is simply a form of communication, it is neither national heritage, nor culture.

That is completely absurd.

Language is what defines a particular culture, their way of thinking and their unique view on the world. It is the first and foremost barrier and protection between one culture and another.

Culture is certainly lost once a language is lost.

Yes, you can have multiple cultures speaking the same language, but look at Ireland. We all watch British TV, buy British newspapers, follow British sport, we identify with the British more than we do with ourselves.

We do this because we lost our own language and now speak the language of our dominant neighbours.

Every Irish person should be given the gift of the Irish language in school, but they have not. This is why we need to reform, and not just abandon the language like Fine Gael want to.

To say that language "is neither national heritage, nor culture" is entirely ignorant, TBH.

Cathaoirleach

Cathaoirleach wrote: »

That is completely absurd.

Language is what defines a particular culture, their way of thinking and their unique view on the world. It is the first and foremost barrier and protection between one culture and another.

Culture is certainly lost once a language is lost.

To say that language "is neither national heritage, nor culture" is entirely ignorant, TBH.

Have to disagree.. Language is nothing. History and culture are everything.

chessguy

Hmmm.. This is what i would expect from a person with shutters over their eyes and hands over their ears ,that could only mutter the word no ooo with out reason.

You say

Language is what defines a particular culture, their way of thinking and their unique view on the world. It is the first and foremost barrier and protection between one culture and another.
Culture is certainly lost once a language is lost.

To say that language "is neither national heritage, nor culture" is entirely ignorant, TBH.

You are absolutely incorrect, as I speak 5 languages as mentioned in my previous post does that mean I now have 5 cultures , do you see the hole in your theory
its beyond reason..

did you know some countries have hundreds of languages feks India for one. this statement blows you theory away..

regards
chessguy

mloc

There seems to be a lot of confusion between the concept of something

a) being compulsory on a government/national level
b) letting the decision be made at a school or student level

That's all there is to this; no-one is talking about abolishing Irish or taking it off the curriculum.

Mike 1972

Cathaoirleach wrote: »

We all watch British TV, buy British newspapers, follow British sport.

Many people dont watch TV at all (ditto Sports)

There are several daily Irish newspapers with circulation running into five figures.

Me thinks you are engaging in hysterical exaggeration.

Cathaoirleach

Deleted User wrote: »

Cathaoirleach, how can you say it should stay compulsory when you yourself say you learned it fine by yourself when you decided to at a later age?

I should have been able to speak fluent Irish after the LC but for the atrocious curriculum. I spoke better French after the LC than Irish.

I felt robbed, TBH.

All Irish students should be able to speak fluently after school, but they can't. That's unfair, and the reason why many Irish people are so bitter about the language, including yourself (I think).

I guess I re-learned Irish because a lot of my close friends speak it, my grandad was a native speaker (RIP), and also I have been to many countries and always felt lacking in any identity other than British.

As I said before, being able to read and speak Irish has opened up a totally different world for me. Just as any language will.

deise go deo

chessguy wrote: »

Irish schools =Irish is compulsory

Other schools = Irish is optional

This would soon resolve the issue..without ,treading on toes...

It is not a matter of personal opinion or preferance , as some reflect "It opened my eyes etc, after learning Irish.
cave paintings may do this for some ,no pun intended.Does not mean that the study of cave paintings should be compulsory.

some do feel it is important for their children , and others do not feel it is relevant at all.

so the choice should be there for the making..showing respect to all concerned..

chessguy

Chessguy, Your suggestion runs into some problem's when you realise that there simply isent space for extra students in Gaelscoils.

If people were forced to make a choice between sending their Kid to a Gaelscoil or not, many more would do so, But today, even with out that extra demand, demand is far ahead of supply.

Even if supply was increased substantialy, the demand is there to take that supply even before you add in people coming from your proposal. There are 16 parents campaigns for new Gaelscoileanna and Gaelcholaiste Today. The Government is dragging its feet and obstructing the setting up of these schools.

It is simply not practicle to expect the existing gaelscoill structure to cater for the influx of demand your suggestion would result in.

chessguy

Hmm I would not expect an influx,
but if it was required than raise taxes,
simple, as it is important for all to have the options education wise,
better to raise taxes for something opted for , rather than for paying private industry like for example.. banks..

regards
chessguy..

orourkeda

Cathaoirleach wrote: »

That is completely absurd.

Language is what defines a particular culture, their way of thinking and their unique view on the world. It is the first and foremost barrier and protection between one culture and another.

Culture is certainly lost once a language is lost.

Yes, you can have multiple cultures speaking the same language, but look at Ireland. We all watch British TV, buy British newspapers, follow British sport, we identify with the British more than we do with ourselves.

We do this because we lost our own language and now speak the language of our dominant neighbours.

Every Irish person should be given the gift of the Irish language in school, but they have not. This is why we need to reform, and not just abandon the language like Fine Gael want to.

To say that language "is neither national heritage, nor culture" is entirely ignorant, TBH.

A Culture is not defined by its language. Language is simply one of the means of cultural expression and it's only a part of a nations cultural stock. Arts, Literature, Music, Sports among many other forms are an equally important part of a nations cultural heritage. Most, if not all thrive without being compulsory in the school curriculum. Ireland and its people have achieved worldwide acclaim for their work in all of these areas. A significant cultural legacy that hasn't been aided or enhanced by the irish language in as significant a fashion as english.

To say that the irish language is a "gift" is not accurate. The real gift is the ability to communicate effectively with those around you, something that the irish language does not afford to the same extent as the english language does at the present time.

Not that I like anything they've done, but has the enforcement of Yiddish done anything to harm the Israeli economy?

I'm for changing how Irish is taught, but I revile the idea of killing it off for the sake of economics, and I'm disgusted by the vitriolic attitudes some on here have to it.

Iwasfrozen

chessguy wrote: »

Hmm I would not expect an influx,
but if it was required than raise taxes,
simple, as it is important for all to have the options education wise,
better to raise taxes for something opted for , rather than for paying private industry like for example.. banks..

No thanks, I don't want my tax euros to fund the forced education of Irish.

Iwasfrozen

Deleted User wrote: »

Not that I like anything they've done, but has the enforcement of Yiddish done anything to harm the Israeli economy?

I'm for changing how Irish is taught, but I revile the idea of killing it off for the sake of economics, and I'm disgusted by the vitriolic attitudes some on here have to it.

They speak Hebrew in Israel... :rolleyes:

Why would making it optional kill off the language? If anything it would trim the fat and create a smaller more passionate group of speakers.

deise go deo

chessguy wrote: »

Hmm I would not expect an influx,
but if it was required than raise taxes,
simple, as it is important for all to have the options education wise,
better to raise taxes for something opted for , rather than for paying private industry like for example.. banks..

regards
chessguy..

In a case where Irish is optional in English Medium schools the case will follow that some English medium schools will not offer Irish as an option. This is the patteren that the decline of languages followed in England after they were made optional there.

This will inivitably lead to an influx into Gaelcholaisteanna, An Influx they will be unable to handle.

Of course this will have several problems outside of that, Gaelcholaiste will get castigated for Elitism even more, Irish will have to be dropped as a requirment for all Universitys as only some people will have the option of learning Irish in their schools.


Making Irish could be a catalyst for a major increase in Gaelscoileanna/Gaelcholaiste, But this would have to be supported by the state, and at present it isent.
But surely the first step in this would be to cater for the existing demand for Gaelscoileanna/Gaelcholaiste first before making demand for them grow without having the infastructure in place to deal with such demand?

Wibbs

Deleted User wrote: »

Not that I like anything they've done, but has the enforcement of Yiddish done anything to harm the Israeli economy?

Eh Yiddish is a dialect of a particular Jewish group. I think you'll find it's Hebrew spoken in Israel. Well a modern Hebrew anyway. One of the biggest reasons for its success and enforcement was because Jews were coming from all over the world with different cultures and language in tow(when people think "Jewish" they tend to think Yentl/fiddler on the roof eastern European Jew. Thats but one group"). They needed a lingua franca for the new state and its people to function. Its a very different situation. We don't need that. We have one. You're writing and reading it now.

I'm for changing how Irish is taught, but I revile the idea of killing it off for the sake of economics, and I'm disgusted by the vitriolic attitudes some on here have to it.

Can you speak it fluently? How deep does your "disgust" go? That's my point. For all the hand wringing over the language and cries of support for the last 100 years why are we even having this conversation? Basque revived pretty well and quickly and great efforts were made to stamp it out in Spain(and France). The languages of the countries of former Soviet bloc have all reasserted themselves in the majority since the fall of the iron curtain. Yet Irish is apparently in such a state that the thought of removing it as a compulsory subject has people on both sides up in arms? Looks like the Irish only want it if they dnt actually have to speak it.

deise go deo

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

No thanks, I don't want my tax euros to fund the forced education of Irish.

How is choosing to send your kids to a Gaelcholaiste 'Forced education of Irish'?

Iwasfrozen

deise go deo wrote: »

How is choosing to send your kids to a Gaelcholaiste 'Forced education of Irish'?

As long as an existing english language college will be closed down to facilitate these Gaelcholaistes then it won't but if it isn't (as I expect) then it will cost taxpayers money and futher increase the already bloated elite halls of acedemia.

deise go deo

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

As long as an existing english language college will be closed down to facilitate these Gaelcholaistes then it won't but if it isn't (as I expect) then it will cost taxpayers money and futher increase the already bloated elite halls of acedemia.

But surely such is justified if there is demand for a Gaelcholaiste in a given area?

Iwasfrozen

deise go deo wrote: »

But surely such is justified if there is demand for a Gaelcholaiste in a given area?

Sure, as long as an existing english language college in the area is shut down to facilitate it. Otherwise we would just be overlapping services.

Buceph

As an aside...

When did Gaelscoils become Gaelcholaistes?

orourkeda

deise go deo wrote: »

In a case where Irish is optional in English Medium schools the case will follow that some English medium schools will not offer Irish as an option. This is the patteren that the decline of languages followed in England after they were made optional there.

This will inivitably lead to an influx into Gaelcholaisteanna, An Influx they will be unable to handle.

Of course this will have several problems outside of that, Gaelcholaiste will get castigated for Elitism even more, Irish will have to be dropped as a requirment for all Universitys as only some people will have the option of learning Irish in their schools.


Making Irish could be a catalyst for a major increase in Gaelscoileanna/Gaelcholaiste, But this would have to be supported by the state, and at present it isent.
But surely the first step in this would be to cater for the existing demand for Gaelscoileanna/Gaelcholaiste first before making demand for them grow without having the infastructure in place to deal with such demand?

The point has been made several times in this thread that the "majority" of irish people want to see the language survive. If this is the case why would english medium schools want to drop it from its curriculum. Surely if the demand was there this would not or should not be a concern. Why would they drop a subject that a significant number would choose to learn (if indeed they had a choice).

Secondly,irish should only be a requirement for university (as with every other subject) if it is relevant to the course where applicable. We all understand the points system but counting irish should not be an unnecessary requirement. If it isn't a requirement for all courses then I stand corrected.

Krusader

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Sure, as long as an existing english language college in the area is shut down to facilitate it. Otherwise we would just be overlapping services.

It's not overlapping services as Irish isn't currently taught by the DOE, we all know that in English medium scholls

NTMK

orourkeda wrote: »

Secondly,irish should only be a requirement for university (as with every other subject) if it is relevant to the course where applicable. We all understand the points system but counting irish should not be an unnecessary requirement. If it isn't a requirement for all courses then I stand corrected.

i think its only a blanket requirment in 2 unis now (galway and maynooth)

EDIT 3 UCD aswell

deise go deo

Buceph wrote: »

As an aside...

When did Gaelscoils become Gaelcholaistes?

Naíscoil = Daycare.
Gaelscoil = Primary
Gaelcholaiste = Secondary.
Ollscoil = University.

deise go deo

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Sure, as long as an existing english language college in the area is shut down to facilitate it. Otherwise we would just be overlapping services.

So should there be demand for both Irish and English medium education in a given area, what then?

Krusader

Buceph wrote: »

As an aside...

When did Gaelscoils become Gaelcholaistes?

Gaeilscoil - primary (it's also a general term for irish speaking schools)
Gaelcholáiste - secondary

orourkeda

NTMK wrote: »

i think its only a blanket requirment in 2 unis now (galway and maynooth)

Fair enough. I wasnt 100% sure. still for somewhere like DCU it's either english or irish.

Iwasfrozen

NTMK wrote: »

i think its only a blanket requirment in 2 unis now (galway and maynooth)

And UCD.

Deise go Deo wrote:

So should there be demand for both Irish and English medium education in a given area, what then?

Then the decision should be made locally. Perhaps by a vote with the minority respecting the majorities wishes.

Crosáid&#237 wrote:

It's not overlapping services as Irish isn't currently taught by the DOE, we all know that in English medium scholls

What?

Cathaoirleach

orourkeda wrote: »

A Culture is not defined by its language. Language is simply one of the means of cultural expression but it's only a part of it.

You cannot deny that a vast part of a culture is lost with the loss of a language.

So, what does Ireland have left?

Gaelic games - a means of cultural expression

Gaelic Games have seen a huge drop in followers over the past 20 years.

Why? Because a growing majority of Irish people prefer to follow the English Premiere League than Gaelic football.

Why? Because, with the English language, they can identify with British sport more than traditional Irish sport. Helped by the advent of SKY satellite TV, of course.

Next:

Irish Music - a means of cultural expression

The Fleadh Cheoil is seeing less and less musicians.

Why? Because Irish kids are becoming more and more influence by British/US TV and Radio, X-Factor, and ****e music in gerenal.

Feadógs, bodhráns, fiddles and flutes are, and let's admit it, only played by people in the country that have been passed down the tradition from their father / ma. Eventually, that will die out.

The massive influence of English-Language TV and culture is slowly eroding away any Irishness we have left.

Irish sport, music, language, will eventually die out in favour of English replacements. It's 90% there already.

Fine Gael should overhaul the Irish curriculum and have all of our kids speaking Irish in 20 years - more Gaelscoils, more Gaelchoiláistí, etc, etc.

I can't let my culture go, and I will pass it to my own children. Whatever happens after that is up to them. I hope it drags on.

Italia

I'm not Irish and I don't speak Irish. As an outsider, I don't have an axe to grind either for or against learning Irish.
My kids are at local schools. When we arrived here, none of them could speak a word of Irish (obviously) but they were obliged to learn it even though completely missing the basics / fundamentals.
My eldest is now busy with his LC and doing Honours Irish. Together with a Russian kid, they are the only non-Irish in the class. The wierd thing is that both my son and the Russian kid are constantly the top 2 students in Irish. I find this truly astounding.

I'm not sure what the level being taught is, but it does not seem to be very high (my personal opinion). I received a letter in Irish (no english copy with it - possibly by mistake) from a Government deprtment a few weeks ago. I asked my son to translate but he wasn't able to do it in a meaningful way.....

My son says that his mates refuse point blank to speak Irish. many reasons are given, but the general consensus seems to be that they consider it a dead /useless language.


This post is not meant to insult, stoke up fires or nationalistic sentiment. It's just a viewpoint from an outsider and, possibly, an insight of what kids actually think about the subject.

Iwasfrozen

Cathaoirleach you seem to think that Ireland's changing culture is a bad thing, but it isn't. Culture has always changed. Ireland didn't plop out of the sky one day with a pre-ordained culture. It had to come from somewhere and it must have changed from some other culture.

Basicallly what I'm trying to say is the culture you are trying to protect would not have existed if people did not change their previous culture over time.

deise go deo

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Then the decision should be made locally. Perhaps by a vote with the minority respecting the majorities wishes.

So you think it is justifiable to force a minority to learn the language that the majority wants to? Interesting.

Fighting Irish

Cathaoirleach wrote: »

As I said before, being able to read and speak Irish has opened up a totally different world for me. Just as any language will.

Well done, you can understand TG4 now!

Tar.Aldarion

150 all those interested in Irish protested :pac:

Krusader

Mise Éire,
Sine mé ná' n Chailleach Béara,
Mór mo ghlóir,
Mé do rug Cú Chullainn cróga,
Mór mo náire,
Mo chlann féin do dhíol a máthair,
Mise Éire,
Is uaignaí mé ná' n Chailleach Béara.


Sin an méid!

Iwasfrozen

deise go deo wrote: »

So you think it is justifiable to force a minority to learn the language that the majority wants to? Interesting.

Not forcing, there is nothing stoping them from sending their children to an Irish language school in another area. To be frank democracy is the best way to allocate limited resources, even if it can't please everybody.

ricero

fair play to fine gael but there over 50 years to late. irish going lovely jubely

deise go deo

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Not forcing, there is nothing stoping them from sending their children to an Irish language school in another area. To be frank democracy is the best way to allocate limited resources, even if it can't please everybody.

So if the majority were in favor of compulsion?

Cathaoirleach

Italia wrote: »

The wierd thing is that both my son and the Russian kid are constantly the top 2 students in Irish. I find this truly astounding.

Be proud! Your son was obviously brought up speaking Italian(?) and then English, and now Irish - that is not a problem for him.

The Russian kid the same. Russian > English > Irish.

This is why we need more Gaelscoils in Ireland. Learning two languages in school means you can pick up other languages very easily, and other cool stuff for you brain! I wish I had that. :pac:

Buceph

Cathaoirleach wrote: »

You cannot deny that a vast part of a culture is lost with the loss of a language.

So, what does Ireland have left?

Gaelic games - a means of cultural expression

Gaelic Games have seen a huge drop in followers over the past 20 years.

Why? Because a growing majority of Irish people prefer to follow the English Premiere League than Gaelic football.

Why? Because, with the English language, they can identify with British sport more than traditional Irish sport. Helped by the advent of SKY satellite TV, of course.

Next:

Irish Music - a means of cultural expression

The Fleadh Cheoil is seeing less and less musicians.

Why? Because Irish kids are becoming more and more influence by British/US TV and Radio, X-Factor, and ****e music in gerenal.

Feadógs, bodhráns, fiddles and flutes are, and let's admit it, only played by people in the country that have been passed down the tradition from their father / ma. Eventually, that will die out.

The massive influence of English-Language TV and culture is slowly eroding away any Irishness we have left.

Irish sport, music, language, will eventually die out in favour of English replacements. It's 90% there already.

Fine Gael should overhaul the Irish curriculum and have all of our kids speaking Irish in 20 years - more Gaelscoils, more Gaelchoiláistí, etc, etc.

I can't let my culture go, and I will pass it to my own children. Whatever happens after that is up to them. I hope it drags on.

GAA and bodhráns may be your culture, they're certainly not mine. They may play a part in my heritage, but nothing more. And if you think that means I'm less Irish...

Iwasfrozen

deise go deo wrote: »

So if the majority were in favor of compulsion?

They won't vote Fine Gael.

NTMK

Cathaoirleach wrote: »

This is why we need more Gaelscoils in Ireland. Learning two languages in school means you can pick up other languages very easily, and other cool stuff for you brain! I wish I had that. :pac:

I personally think irish should be optional but a second language be compulsory

deise go deo

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

They won't vote Fine Gael.

Well I think there may be other issues at play in this Election that influence peoples vote. (Just a suggestion);)

Though FG's policy is loosing them votes.



There is an intresting article in the Irish Times on the issue.

Cathaoirleach

Buceph wrote: »

GAA and bodhráns may be your culture, they're certainly not mine. They may play a part in my heritage, but nothing more. And if you think that means I'm less Irish...

Ah! But they're part of you heritage. That makes you a bit more Irish.

Soft day, and thanks for the céad míle fáilte.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K0s4uw78e-0

Just to cheer up the thread a bit..

orourkeda

Cathaoirleach wrote: »

You cannot deny that a vast part of a culture is lost with the loss of a language.

So, what does Ireland have left?

Gaelic games - a means of cultural expression

Gaelic Games have seen a huge drop in followers over the past 20 years.

Why? Because a growing majority of Irish people prefer to follow the English Premiere League than Gaelic football.

Why? Because, with the English language, they can identify with British sport more than traditional Irish sport. Helped by the advent of SKY satellite TV, of course.

Next:

Irish Music - a means of cultural expression

The Fleadh Cheoil is seeing less and less musicians.

Why? Because Irish kids are becoming more and more influence by British/US TV and Radio, X-Factor, and ****e music in gerenal.

Feadógs, bodhráns, fiddles and flutes are, and let's admit it, only played by people in the country that have be passed down the tradition from their father / ma. Eventually, that will die out.

The massive influence of English-Language TV and culture is slowly eroding away any Irishness we have left.

Irish sport, music, language, will eventually die out in favour of English replacements. It's 90% there already.

Fine Gael should overhaul the Irish curriculum and have all of our kids speaking Irish in 20 years - more Gaelscoils, more Gaelchoiláistí, etc, etc.

I can't let my culture go, and I will pass it to my own children. Whatever happens after that is up to them. I hope it drags on.

I fail to see the correlation between teaching irish and the popularity of premier league football. As you've said yourself this has more to do with the advent and prevalence of sky sports. The PL is one of the worlds most watched sporting leagues. It is enjoyed worldwide. There are a variety of reasons for this. The simple fact that it is popular in the far east, africa and continental europe should indicate that language should not affect or influence ones enjoyment of the game. The same is true of gaelic games. A person does not need irish to enjoy gaelic games for what they are.

Sports as a means of cultural expression is not and should not be restricted to Gaelic Games specifically. However gaelic games are a significant part of our history and will continue to be so for the foreseeable future. Attendances at senior games may very well have fallen but gaelic games still appear reasonably healthy. The G.A.A still has an enormous presence.

I cant comment on "Fleadh Cheoil". I do not know enough about them. But to use a very simple and well known example, and perhaps this is an exception, but if we look at something like riverdance we can see that Irish culture is far from 90% dead.

If our "irishness" is being eroded by the influence of British T.V as you say, how will the irish language stop this slide?

(edit - I didnt see the gift grub skit on Michael flatley before posting this)

BlaasForRafa

deise go deo wrote: »

So if the majority were in favor of compulsion?

What if the majority were in favour of killing homosexuals?

See, whataboutery will only get you so far.

Italia

Proud? Not really. It has no meaning either way. Just something that has to be done and then put away because it unlikely to be used anywhere else in the world. Having said that, its not going to do him any harm learning it.
I would have preferred that he do another foreign language (Mandarin or Russian) as that would have given him more of an advantage going forward.

Cathaoirleach wrote: »

Be proud! Your son was obviously brought up speaking Italian(?) and then English, and now Irish - that is not a problem for him.

The Russian kid the same. Russian > English > Irish.

This is why we need more Gaelscoils in Ireland. Learning two languages in school means you can pick up other languages very easily, and other cool stuff for you brain! I wish I had that. :pac:

Cathaoirleach

Italia wrote: »

Proud? Not really. It has no meaning either way.

Ah well. I'd be pissed too if my son had to learn Sardinian.