Fine Gael policy to end compusory Irish till Leaving Cert

deise go deo

Guy:Incognito wrote: »

Stop teaching Irish altoghter in schools then lets compare in 30 years time.
The last 10 - 15 years have seen a huge influx of foreign people to Ireland, so why not wait a while to see what influence all these people have to the debate.

Why would we stop teaching Irish in schools? There would be uproar.

Well so far they seam quite positive to the language, There is even a group called iMeasc for Forighn born Irish speakers that has been promoting the language to immigrants over the last few years.

It doesnt now but they will be doing it in future.

And you think they should be consulted? There parents perhaps, But five year olds?

How many 18-24 year olds are doing the leaving? You cant use a group of 15-24 years olds as your arguement then say it's the people doing the leaveing now when the vast majority of peopel in that group are finished their leaving. Anyway is it not stupidly short sighted to go on the opinions of the people who will not be affected by any policy anyway? Anyone in the LC cycle now will be doing Irish regardless of what happens in the GE or any policies brought in thereafter.

Around 50,000 I would imagin. Why? That is the group as it was broken down in the newspaper. It is the group closest to having done the LC.

Snakeblood

deise go deo wrote: »

Why would we stop teaching Irish in schools? There would be uproar.

Well so far they seam quite positive to the language, There is even a group called iMeasc for Forighn born Irish speakers that has been promoting the language to immigrants over the last few years.





And you think they should be consulted? There parents perhaps, But five year olds?



Around 50,000 I would imagin. Why? That is the group as it was broken down in the newspaper. It is the group closest to having done the LC.

Why do people in general get their vote ignored once they are above 24? Surely they have more experience of how useful and beneficial irish is in the real world?

Guy:Incognito

deise go deo wrote: »

Why would we stop teaching Irish in schools? .
.

I was being a tad facetious with that reply.

The pont was though, that 30 years without Irish may well change peoples attitude to it and the setting up of schools could easily swing towards German or French etc.

Iwasfrozen

iMax wrote: »

I'll be lambasted for this, but I don't think it should be compulsary at all. I think Irish & Religion lessons should be given outside of the normal curriculum hours. Replace them with two european languages or one european one & one world one (Russian or chinese for example).

Emm, Russia is in Europe but I kjnow what you mean. Religion has no place as a mandatory subject in this day and age.

mloc

I think people should have a choice; I think in many ways it could actually help Irish. Most people resent having to learn Irish in school as a hindrance and waste of time, taking away from learning more useful subjects. It should be left to each school to decide if they want to make it compulsory or not.

The views of a small minority of Gaelgoir-nazis shouldn't determine the right of everyone to decide whether they want to take the subject or not at Leaving Cert level.

Snakeblood

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Emm, Russia is in Europe but I kjnow what you mean. Religion has no place as a mandatory subject in this day and age.

As the only atheist in my primary school class\school\district when I was a kid I got totally ostracised by the school when religion class came around. I believe things are better, but no better way of making a kid feel like an outcast than by telling one bunch of kids that you believe in this guy, and you are blessed, and therefore that kid out there must be some sort of ****.

I should have put this in the things that scarred you thread. Sigh.

Dudess

I don't think any subject at all should be compulsory for the Leaving Cert and the pupil should be able to just pick whatever subjects they like/are good at. I believe there should be certain compulsory subjects pre Leaving Cert years all right, as that gives the pupil enough time to figure out their strengths and weaknesses.

Guy:Incognito

Dudess wrote: »

I don't think any subject at all should be compulsory for the Leaving Cert and the pupil should be able to just pick whatever subjects they like/are good at. I believe there should be certain compulsory subjects pre Leaving Cert years all right, as that gives the pupil enough time to figure out their strengths and weaknesses.

I'd have no problem with a customised LC for people. What I definately think needs changing, which incorporates my stance on the teaching of Irish is that people need to be prepared in school to emerge in to life in a 21st century Europe and /or world and not a pre 1950's Ireland.

Snakeblood

Guy:Incognito wrote: »

I'd have no problem with a customised LC for people. What I definately think needs changing, which incorporates my stance on the teaching of Irish is that people need to be prepared in school to emerge in to life in a 21st century Europe and /or world and not a pre 1950's Ireland.

I'd just settle for burning every single copy of Peig in the world.

Dudess

I did the Leaving Cert 15 years ago and it was dreadfully dreary - such an archaic curriculum. I assumed it was somewhat updated since, but it doesn't sound like it.
I don't think it's necessary to do away with Irish though. I also think Irish, by its nature, is gonna be a somewhat archaic course. I'd prefer that to trying to modernise it and make it "down with the kids".

Krusader

But Irish is a modern language, it has modern words for modern things

PeterIanStaker

Language and maths teaching both need a severe overhaul in our school system.

PrincessLola

Give post-junior cert students a choice. There is no rational reason to force it, and all this 'its our culture' crap is too sentimental for me.

Coriolanus

ballsymchugh wrote: »

true, although was referring to the post that about the amount of poetry etc making the course ridiculous. there's not many opportunities to refer to english poetry in the daily run of things either. nothing against learning it if you want, but if you're making the case against the irish literature, then the same should apply to english literature.

Not really, no. Any 18 year old has the capacity, if not the desire, to pick up a book of english poetry and read it and standing half a chance of extracting some meaning from it.
The same simply cannot be said of Irish.

I'd argue that studying poetry in a language one is fluent in opens a door for the future, studying it in a language that you are not fluent in reduces the experience to mere rote learning.

deise go deo

Dudess wrote: »

I did the Leaving Cert 15 years ago and it was dreadfully dreary - such an archaic curriculum. I assumed it was somewhat updated since, but it doesn't sound like it.
I don't think it's necessary to do away with Irish though. I also think Irish, by its nature, is gonna be a somewhat archaic course. I'd prefer that to trying to modernise it and make it "down with the kids".

To Late, It is modern, and it is with the younger generations that Irish is most poular.

Guy:Incognito

deise go deo wrote: »

To Late, It is modern, and it is with the younger generations that Irish is most poular.

Well then there should be no opposition to making it optional. Surely there wont be a drop off in numbers.

deise go deo

I found some intresting statistics

79% of people aged 15 - 24 are of the option that another subject should be taught through Irish at primary school level (Ipsos MRBI 2010)

65% of people are of the option that Irish should be compulsory for the Leaving Cert (Ipsos MRBI 2010)

Labour Supports Irish

deise go deo

Guy:Incognito wrote: »

Well then there should be no opposition to making it optional. Surely there wont be a drop off in numbers.

Well, you assume the only reason someone would not choose to do Irish is because they dont want to.

There are several factors that would influence people not to Choose Irish, even if on balance it is something they would like to learn.

-The first and most important factor is its poor curriculum, Even if you want to learn Irish, you wont learn it in the current LC course.
-Languages are considered harder subjects to learn and do well in, This is a very important factor when points is such a large factor in the choices people make in the LC.
-Irish has 7.5 hours of exams at the end of it, How many people will choose that work load when they can do a subject that has 2.5 hours of exams at the end of it for the same points.
-Competition, Due to Timetabling Irish will often clash with other subjects that people want to do. People may want to do Irish, But not as much as they want to do History(For example) that is timetabled at the same time in their school.
-Irish will not be available in all schools.

Wibbs

deise go deo wrote: »

For my part, I would be genuinly shocked if Enda went ahead with this Idea. It will be opposed every step of the way.

By the same quite small but very loud gaelgoir mafia as before.

Amhran Nua wrote: »

But there wasn't a battle between English and Irish, there was a centuries long occupation by the English who made a determined, extended and violent effort to stamp out the Irish language. It's not like a panel of judges sat down one day and considered each on their individual merits. This isn't an "800 years" thing either, its hard reality.

So what? You could say similar about many many languages. Including English. Do you know anyone that can speak Aztec, or Norman?

The Irish language is a vital part of our culture, and before anyone starts moaning about the value of culture,

I've no issue with our culture. I just question the value of the language to it, or at least how much of a value that is. The vast majority of our greatest cultural giants(and exports) couldn't string a few words of it together.

think about making the national flag a uniform grey sheet and stop the sale of all clothes in colours outside grey. People aren't machines, there's more than the sum of our biological parts in there.

Emotive, but ultimately empty rhetoric. Are you in politics?

People like Irish culture, and want to get more of it, it has a solid, quantifiable economic value. And of course, language is a vital part of that - how would you feel if you went to say Japan and found everyone there conversing in English with a Texan drawl? You'd feel diminished, lessened, as though the world was a little less bright. And you wouldn't be going back either.

Utter bollocks. You'd likely have more english speaking people going back in that case, not less.

One other note: I don't think Inda has more than a cúpla focail himself, so we'll have a Taoiseach who doesn't speak the language of the nation.

You're wrong there, but even if you weren't, so what? He'd reflect more of the majority of the people of this island, not the 40,000(if that) fluent speakers.

Crosáidí wrote: »

There was a study done last year by Queens University that kids in Gaeilscoileanna were surpassing their peers in English medium schools in Maths and guess what other subject English. How amazing is that.

Not so amazing when you consider the better funding, more interested teachers and smaller class sizes. That would have as much to do with it as the second language. I'd be pretty sure private well funded schools entirely through the medium of English would fare equally well.

It will survive or grow if people want it. Simple as that. After nearly a century, while there have been some upward trends at times, the overwhelming direction is downhill for Irish. What does that tell you about the Irish themselves? They dont particularly wanna use it. Oh they'll say in surveys and the like "oh sure. Irish is only greeeat", but try asking the same surveys as Gaelige. Good luck with that.

coffeelover

When is this going to be put in place?
I'm doing my leaving next year honours irish and I only know the basics. It's a dreadful course :mad:..

Marcus.Aurelius

deise go deo wrote: »

Well, you assume the only reason someone would not choose to do Irish is because they dont want to.

There are several factors that would influence people not to Choose Irish, even if on balance it is something they would like to learn.

-The first and most important factor is its poor curriculum, Even if you want to learn Irish, you wont learn it in the current LC course.
-Languages are considered harder subjects to learn and do well in, This is a very important factor when points is such a large factor in the choices people make in the LC.
-Irish has 7.5 hours of exams at the end of it, How many people will choose that work load when they can do a subject that has 2.5 hours of exams at the end of it for the same points.
-Competition, Due to Timetabling Irish will often clash with other subjects that people want to do. People may want to do Irish, But not as much as they want to do History(For example) that is timetabled at the same time in their school.
-Irish will not be available in all schools.

If Irish is as popular as your statistics seem to suggest, it has nothing to fear from being made optional. If it does experience a drop-off you can be sure that a reform of the curriculum (now long overdue) will be implemented to stop the bleed.

I suspect the wiles of GAA playing Gaelgoir Irish Teachers and their ilk will prevent this policy going further than Enda's grey cells. Nice idea though.

deise go deo

Wibbs wrote: »

By the same quite small but very loud gaelgoir mafia as before.

You think it is valid to compare a Cultural Interest group with a violent Criminal Gang?:rolleyes:

LOL

You're wrong there, but even if you weren't, so what? He'd reflect more of the majority of the people of this island, not the 40,000(if that) fluent speakers.

Nope, its not that.:rolleyes:

Not so amazing when you consider the better funding, more interested teachers and smaller class sizes. That would have as much to do with it as the second language. I'd be pretty sure private well funded schools entirely through the medium of English would fare equally well.

Care to back up these claims? You know, with evidience? Some Gaelscoileanna dont get any state funding.

It will survive or grow if people want it. Simple as that. After nearly a century, while there have been some upward trends at times, the overwhelming direction is downhill for Irish. What does that tell you about the Irish themselves? They dont particularly wanna use it. Oh they'll say in surveys and the like "oh sure. Irish is only greeeat", but try asking the same surveys as Gaelige. Good luck with that.

Ah, so much opinion, so little evidience. Care to show evidience of an 'Qverwhelming downward trend' for Irish in recent times? Anything? Anything at all?

heyjude

I agree with the idea of Irish no longer being compulsory for the Leaving Cert, its a failed policy and the time has come to admit this and bring it to an end. But no matter how determined FG are, it won't happen as the vested interests will come pouring out of the woodwork using emotive issues such as the defence of our national culture, language, pride in all things Irish etc. The real reasons why it won't happen though, is that too many of these vested interests depend on compulsory Irish for their living, as less students taking Irish means less need for Irish teachers, less need for Irish grinds, less need for Irish language text books, fewer trips to the gaeltacht, less interest in gaelscoileanna and with thousands involved in these sectors, there would be a huge and powerful lobby to maintain the status quo.

The likely result wouldn't be an instant climb down but rather the dreaded "review" of the way Irish is taught to LC level, perhaps accompanied by a "review" of the Irish syllabus and course contents, all of which would take a year or two to complete, after which a report will be submitted to the government, who will then sit on the report for another few months. The issue would then be pushed onto the backburner as the government decides not to lead on the issue, but rather to bow to the vested interests.

The way Irish is force fed to students wasn't working ten years ago, it isn't working now and it won't be working in ten years time either, but assuming anyone has the vision to make the big leap and end compulsion, rather than catering to the powerful lobbyists, is pure delusion. It hasn't happened and it won't either.

deise go deo

heyjude wrote: »

I agree with the idea of Irish no longer being compulsory for the Leaving Cert, its a failed policy and the time has come to admit this and bring it to an end. But no matter how determined FG are, it won't happen as the vested interests will come pouring out of the woodwork using emotive issues such as the defence of our national culture, language, pride in all things Irish etc. The real reasons why it won't happen though, is that too many of these vested interests depend on compulsory Irish for their living, as less students taking Irish means less need for Irish teachers, less need for Irish grinds, less need for Irish language text books, fewer trips to the gaeltacht, less interest in gaelscoileanna and with thousands involved in these sectors, there would be a huge and powerful lobby to maintain the status quo.

Ya, Not to mention that the majority want Irish to stay compulsory.

The way Irish is force fed to students wasn't working ten years ago, it isn't working now and it won't be working in ten years time either, but assuming anyone has the vision to make the big leap and end compulsion, rather than catering to the powerful lobbyists, is pure delusion. It hasn't happened and it won't either.

Talking of emotive arguments:rolleyes:

The vast majority of people support Irish, The majority want Irish to remain a compulsory subject, Those who dont want to learn Irish can easily get themselves exempt(There is no requirment to sit the exam)

Fight_Night

If this were to go ahead, when would it come into place, anyone know?

orourkeda

Finally, teachers might start teaching something useful and relevant at LC level.

Krusader

orourkeda wrote: »

Finally, teachers might start teaching something useful and relevant at LC level.

Like what??

Fight_Night

deise go deo wrote: »

Ya, Not to mention that the majority want Irish to stay compulsory.






Talking of emotive arguments:rolleyes:

The vast majority of people support Irish, The majority want Irish to remain a compulsory subject, Those who dont want to learn Irish can easily get themselves exempt(There is no requirment to sit the exam)

tbh you're a bit deluded. The majority of people are apathetic to the language and wouldn't care if it was no longer compulsory. I don't have a problem with it being compulsory as long as it is taught properly. It should be almost entirely oral, especially in primary school. Irish class from Infants to 6th class/1st year should consist entirely of purely speaking Irish. Forcing people to learn about Irish poetry does the language no favours.

orourkeda

Crosáidí wrote: »

Like what??

Allowing students a choice in the matter. At least then we'll have a more accurate reflection on the true popularity of the language among students. The students will be doing the language because they want to rather than having it forced on them. The same should also apply to English and Maths.

Surely learning a subject that one enjoys and has an aptitude for is more beneficial to all involved.

Krusader

Irish isn't that hard a language to learn, spelling is quite regular, pronounciation is quite regular, 11 irregular verbs, once you know the sentence structure and prepositions, you'll be flying.
An Roinn Éadochais has failed us in our learning of our national tongue