Fine Gael policy to end compusory Irish till Leaving Cert

Iwasfrozen

On Yiddish, not Hebrew, my bad. :S

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Why would making it optional kill off the language? If anything it would trim the fat and create a smaller more passionate group of speakers.

Well, I need to make it clear I'm open to any and all suggestions to improve the language, including giving snobs the option of not dirtying their kids with bogman speak (Good riddance, off to London with ye) but I'm very much against the bashing of someone else's.

Wibbs wrote: »

Eh Yiddish is a dialect of a particular Jewish group. I think you'll find it's Hebrew spoken in Israel. Well a modern Hebrew anyway. One of the biggest reasons for its success and enforcement was because Jews were coming from all over the world with different cultures and language in tow(when people think "Jewish" they tend to think Yentl/fiddler on the roof eastern European Jew. Thats but one group"). They needed a lingua franca for the new state and its people to function.

Why wasn't that language English? Sure every country in the world, thanks to the ubiquitous of the United States, speaks English. Could it be to say "We're Israeli"?

Wibbs wrote: »

We don't need that. We have one. You're writing and reading it now.

Should we forget our past? throw it away? Does Galway city not exist? Round up the bogmen Gaelgoiri and "concentrate" them?

Wibbs wrote: »

Can you speak it fluently? How deep does your "disgust" go?

My disgust goes as far as my disgust for those who judge based on a person's race.

Ba maith liom e a usaid, ach is mise gan cleachtas. Cloisim e ar usaid ar an mbus i mBAC, agus cuir me ceist ar an cainteoir. Duirt si go raibh e ar usaid as a mathair i Litir Mor. Clisim e ar usaid sna caithrach Gaillimh gach la a raibh me sna caithrach.

You ask why do we need to do something to preserve it? Because that's been a ham-fisted mess since the start of the state. If we had done what the Israelis did- Hebrew only street signs, everything done in Hebrew- then the language would be in a similar state as Hebrew is today in Israel. Israel could easily have gone down tyhe route of doing business in English. After all, the land was being handed over from the British, so it would have made the legal and government side of things easy. But no, they chose to do what they could to assert themselves on the international stage as Israeli.

I don't advocate going Israeli-style gaelgoir nation, but I vehemently oppose any suggestion that it's useless economically, and should be run into the ground if an English alternative is available.

My idea: The language needs to be encouraged by the carrot of people interested, not the stick of having to learn it. Wibbs, I get the impression that you're of the mind it should be beaten out of daily life altogether, become the preserve of language professors in ivory towers, beaten out of those who for whatever reason still speak it outside acedemia.

chessguy

If anyone has an interest in their language heritage then learn Sanskrit , mother of all languages.And guess what its actually still spoken
http://ask.yahoo.com/20020626.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sanskrit

How far back in heritage do you want to go..<<<<

deise go deo

BlaasForRafa wrote: »

What if the majority were in favour of killing homosexuals?

See, whataboutery will only get you so far.

Well In that case I would not really be worried about Irish in the education system, we would have bigger problems.

Thing is it seams that in a recent poll the majority were in favor of compulsion.

Paddytheplaster

Fair play to FG I thnk it is only fair that young students have a choice in the subjects for their LC. Some kids are just not drawn to languages and they may be excellent in science subjects for example. Let them pursue the subjects they have a talent in and drop the ones they don't have a real interest for. In a huge amount of cases that is Irish.
well done FG for some vision at last.

Krusader

Paddytheplaster wrote: »

Fair play to FG I thnk it is only fair that young students have a choice in the subjects for their LC. Some kids are just not drawn to languages and they may be excellent in science subjects for example. Let them pursue the subjects they have a talent in and drop the ones they don't have a real interest for. In a huge amount of cases that is Irish.
well done FG for some vision at last.

Then why isn't maths and english being made optional

Snakeblood

kraggy wrote: »

So my speaking 2 languages daily, instead of 1 = narrow mind ???

And it's a waste of time speaking Gaeilge how? It's one my languages. Would you say to a South African that their speaking Afrikaans is a waste of time?

I'd probably acknowledr that Afrikaans is relatively widely used in south Africa. You want everyone to have to learn a language that isn't remotely as widely used. You keep making apples and oranges comparisons.

Fighting Irish

Crosáidí wrote: »

Then why isn't maths and english being made optional

Because 99% of the time, english and maths are needed throughout daily life


If i went to a job interview and told them i can't do maths and i can't understand much english, or i can't understand any irish. Which would you think they'd prefer?

Krusader

But do most people need to solve quadratic equations, know about trigonometry or shakesperian english, i wouldn't think so

NTMK

Crosáidí wrote: »

But do most people need to solve quadratic equations, know about trigonometry or shakesperian english, i wouldn't think so

you need to be able to solve quads and trig for science and engineering in school and college
shakesperian english helps increase your ability to interpret and understand written english not to mind increase your grasp of the langauge one of the most important languages in the world

so what do we need irish for in every day life

deise go deo

Fighting Irish wrote: »

Because 99% of the time, english and maths are needed throughout daily life

Primary school English and Maths yes, But Not LC standard.

If i went to a job interview and told them i can't do maths and i can't understand much english, or i can't understand any irish. Which would you think they'd prefer?

If you went into a job interview(with Google for arguments sake) And said you had English and Maths, but no Irish.
And I went into the same Job Interview and said I had English and Maths and Irish, which do you think they'd prefer?
(All else being equal of course)

deise go deo

NTMK wrote: »

you need to be able to solve quads and trig for science and engineering in school and college

Right so some people need it, but not every one? Sounds perfect for being optional so.

shakesperian english helps increase your ability to interpret and understand written english not to mind increase your grasp of the langauge one of the most important languages in the world

so what do we need irish for in every day life

Learning a second language helps to improve your first. So Irish can be justified in the same way English can. It improves your English.

NTMK

deise go deo wrote: »

Right so some people need it, but not every one? Sounds perfect for being optional so.




Learning a second language helps to improve your first. So Irish can be justified in the same way English can. It improves your English.

yes but im for a second language being compulsory with irish being optional.

If the langauge is as strong as you say it is surely it can stand up to being made an optional subject

at least if it was made optional the curriculum would need to be revised completely

orourkeda

NTMK wrote: »

you need to be able to solve quads and trig for science and engineering in school and college
shakesperian english helps increase your ability to interpret and understand written english not to mind increase your grasp of the langauge one of the most important languages in the world

so what do we need irish for in every day life

We don't. There lies the problem for proponents of the irish language.

It might be of importance to certain people in cultural or historical terms but it's practical uses are limited until such time as it is more widely spoken. This is something that will take at least a generation to correct at best if there is a will. In the current climate this is unlikely to happen.

orourkeda

deise go deo wrote: »

Primary school English and Maths yes, But Not LC standard.



If you went into a job interview(with Google for arguments sake) And said you had English and Maths, but no Irish.
And I went into the same Job Interview and said I had English and Maths and Irish, which do you think they'd prefer?
(All else being equal of course)

When was the last time you did a job interview where your leaving cert results were discussed or even requested?

From my experience, relevant work experience, relevant third level qualifications and relevant professional qualifications are of far greater significance, interest and relevance to prospective employers.

Perhaps other people experiences are different to mine.

Copper23

I'll go against the grain and say this is madness.
For me this is definitely a vote against FG if true but the mad thing is, it will mean massive support from them. I just don't get people.

Irish needs to remain until leaving cert. Yes I hated it too but I'm a few years on now and deeply regret I am not more fluent after doing it for so many years. The problem is not the language, it's how it's thought. I would support any candidates which keep it compulsory but come up with some proposals as to how to reform the teaching and integration of Irish into schools.

I mean, how many times did yo hear 2 teachers talking Irish in your class in school so you wouldn't understand what they were saying. Is that the ultimate damning of the system. Your irish teacher speaking Irish in front of you so you dont understand what their conversation.

Buceph

orourkeda wrote: »

When was the last time you did a job interview where your leaving cert results were discussed or even requested?

From my experience, relevant work experience, relevant third level qualifications and relevant professional qualifications are of far greater significance, interest and relevance to prospective employers.

Perhaps other people experiences are different to mine.

Loads of big MNCs are looking for leaving cert results, in each specific subject now. They're also looking for each subjects result for each year in Uni.

Looking for Leaving results makes no sense to me, but it's based on either the English system, where A Levels would have been done based on an interest, or the American system where they have GPAs. The problem is neither of them translate to the Irish system, but the MNCs are trying to standardise and so we get a dodgy recruitment system.

But hey, as someone unemployed it's my hobby to be dismissive of HR people.

NTMK

Copper23 wrote: »

The problem is not the language, it's how it's thought. I would support any candidates which keep it compulsory but come up with some proposals as to how to reform the teaching and integration of Irish into schools.
QUOTE]

The problem is that the language for 90% of the population cant be used outside of school. ive used german and what little turkish i know more than ive ever used irish and thats in ireland

orourkeda

Buceph wrote: »

Loads of big MNCs are looking for leaving cert results, in each specific subject now. They're also looking for each subjects result for each year in Uni.

Looking for Leaving results makes no sense to me, but it's based on either the English system, where A Levels would have been done based on an interest, or the American system where they have GPAs. The problem is neither of them translate to the Irish system, but the MNCs are trying to standardise and so we get a dodgy recruitment system.

But hey, as someone unemployed it's my hobby to be dismissive of HR people.

I'm out of work too and have yet to be asked but thats just my experience.

orourkeda

Copper23 wrote: »

I'll go against the grain and say this is madness.
For me this is definitely a vote against FG if true but the mad thing is, it will mean massive support from them. I just don't get people.

Irish needs to remain until leaving cert. Yes I hated it too but I'm a few years on now and deeply regret I am not more fluent after doing it for so many years. The problem is not the language, it's how it's thought. I would support any candidates which keep it compulsory but come up with some proposals as to how to reform the teaching and integration of Irish into schools.

I mean, how many times did yo hear 2 teachers talking Irish in your class in school so you wouldn't understand what they were saying. Is that the ultimate damning of the system. Your irish teacher speaking Irish in front of you so you dont understand what their conversation.

Nothing "needs" to remain. People "want" it to remain. Irish is of no greater or lesser importance than any other subject. Allowing students the choice to study the subjects that suit them best appears a reasonable approach.

deise go deo

NTMK wrote: »

The problem is that the language for 90% of the population cant be used outside of school. ive used german and what little turkish i know more than ive ever used irish and thats in ireland

Thats simply not true, 90% of people dont have enough Irish to be comfortable using it outside of school.

That dosent mean they can't use it, there are oppertunitys all over the place to use it, and these oppertunitys are growing all the time.

super_furry

I honestly can't see any problem with allowing people to chose whether or not to study it at Leaving Cert level. Irish really has very little practical use for the vast majority of Irish people on a day-to-day level and the very fact that it's forced down our throats leads to plenty of resentment towards it - as can be seen here.

orourkeda

Crosáidí wrote: »

But do most people need to solve quadratic equations, know about trigonometry or shakesperian english, i wouldn't think so

People only use what they need. If quadratic equations are relevant or necessary for work or your studies, it follows that you would need to know how to solve them.

Surely the same logic should apply to the irish language. If it's something that's necessary, relevant or interesting to a student then allow them to choose it as a subject.

It's allowing them the choice in the matter

orourkeda

deise go deo wrote: »

Thats simply not true, 90% of people dont have enough Irish to be comfortable using it outside of school.

That dosent mean they can't use it, there are oppertunitys all over the place to use it, and these oppertunitys are growing all the time.

Surely, by extension, if what you say is accurate,the need for the compulsory teaching of irish is no longer necessary. Surely, the fact that the opportunities are increasing outside the classroom should result in decreased necessity for it to be taught in school. No subject needs to be compulsory

oranje

NTMK wrote: »

yes but im for a second language being compulsory with irish being optional.

If the langauge is as strong as you say it is surely it can stand up to being made an optional subject

at least if it was made optional the curriculum would need to be revised completely

In principle I agree with you that a second language should be compulsory and it is a good question if that second language should be Irish or not.
In the UK and other countries there are trials at primary school where they are teaching Esperanto as a second language in the same way as children learn the recorder as a precursor to learning another musical instrument. All of the evidence so far shows that these children do much better with a third language than their peers who start learning a second language at the same time. I have heard arguments in the Irish context that all of the time learning Irish would have been better spent on German, Spanish, Japanese, Chinese or whatever they feel is more useful.
My personal view is that Irish is the perfect second language for Irish children. It is one of the historic languages of the country, it has a rich literature, there are radio ad television stations broadcasting in the language and almost every Irish town name means nothing in its English form. If the teacher is a fluent Irish speaker (not necessarily native) there is no reason why children would find Irish particularly difficult.

More generally I think many people miss an essential point about learning Irish and other languages. Learning languages is a skill just as scientific reasoning is a skill. The problem many Irish people seem to have is that they focus on the fish rather than the rod and bait. It should be no surprise that Polish/Italian/Russian/Chinese kids are better at Irish than monolingual English speakers. Learning languages is multiplicative, children with more than one language have more linguistic awareness so that the subsequent languages are easier to learn.
My daughters speak English with me and Polish with their mother but go to a Dutch school. My eldest (6 year old) daughter is indistinguishable from her Dutch peers in her spoken Dutch and is doing fine in terms of literacy. Ability in one language reinforces ability in others.
My own experience is maybe atypical. I studied engineering so I am not a linguist. However I could speak good Irish and French leaving school and I have learned many other languages since. I am always thankful that I learned a language that was so unlike English first. Irish tuned my mind for approaching languages as they are and not continually trying to work out how they relate to English. I fear that optional Irish would lead Ireland down a slippery slope to monolingualism.

Dionysus

Buceph wrote: »

GAA and bodhráns may be your culture, they're certainly not mine. They may play a part in my heritage, but nothing more. And if you think that means I'm less Irish...

How, then, do you define your Irishness if not by distinctively Irish things?

Support for British soccer? or American TV? ...

Fighting Irish

Crosáidí wrote: »

But do most people need to solve quadratic equations, know about trigonometry or shakesperian english, i wouldn't think so

I'm not saying the curriculum is good, i'm saying people need maths and english(the language spoken in this country)

Fighting Irish

deise go deo wrote: »

If you went into a job interview(with Google for arguments sake) And said you had English and Maths, but no Irish.
And I went into the same Job Interview and said I had English and Maths and Irish, which do you think they'd prefer?
(All else being equal of course)

That wasn't my argument to begin with :rolleyes:

deise go deo

orourkeda wrote: »

Surely, by extension, if what you say is accurate,the need for the compulsory teaching of irish is no longer necessary. Surely, the fact that the opportunities are increasing outside the classroom should result in decreased necessity for it to be taught in school. No subject needs to be compulsory

Well I would say it should be compulsory.

And no, I dont see how your logic follows, There are no end of oppertunities to use English, dose that mean we dont need to teach it?

Copper23

NTMK wrote: »

Copper23 wrote: »

The problem is not the language, it's how it's thought. I would support any candidates which keep it compulsory but come up with some proposals as to how to reform the teaching and integration of Irish into schools.
QUOTE]

The problem is that the language for 90% of the population cant be used outside of school. ive used german and what little turkish i know more than ive ever used irish and thats in ireland

Its our national language. I think it should be thought personally.
The current curriculum and way of teaching is poor. For someone to learn a language from the age of 4 until about 18 and most of the population still not to be anywhere near fluent is a problem.

I hated learning Irish in school. It was terrible and it DOES seem like it has no use. Maybe it's just as you get older. Irish in Ireland are quick to dismiss all things Irish. Working abroad I started to get a lot more appreciation for this kind of thing, and I really wish I was more fluent. Its not an every day thing but when it does come up I'm embarrassed I'm not fluent and it IS useful a lot of the time even if it's not an every day thing. I work with people are all walks of life, even when English is their primary language they still speak their own language and regularly converse with people of their own nationality in their own language. It would be nice for the Irish to do the same.

I don't think it should be dropped. But change the curriculum. The whole Hector idea of making irish fun again is what we need. Instead of classes 5 days a week, maybe lower it but integrate it more into the general teaching and instead of learning a lot of the irrelevant poetry and pros stuff, while good to know, make that sort of thing less compulsory and just integrate the language more into the daily schooling process.

Honestly, I'm thinking on the fly but thats the gist of it. If someone proposed something like this I'd be much happier. Keep it until leaving cert but make sure students are almost fluent leaving primary, by secondary maybe make it slightly less important. Instead of 15/16 year olds still struggling with learning verbs, they should be fluent enough by then and less Irish class which are more conversational.

Just an idea. I just wish people wouldn't dismiss all things Irish so much. Sure, we speak English and have absorbed a lot of British and American culture but if we let all things Irish die then what are we? I know, a lot of people don't care in their teens and twenties and thats probably the main problem. Its only later on people start to express the wish to relearn but usually too late by then.

Dionysus

Fighting Irish wrote: »

Because 99% of the time, english and maths are needed throughout daily life

You must live in a very highbrow area. In the real world, however, the overwhelming majority of people never use quadratic equations, Shakespearean poetry or any of that other nonsense that constitutes the English and Maths syllabi after they leave school. Students have learnt to read, write and calculate long before they begin the Leaving Cert - there is no rational reason for them to be forced to take those two subjects for the Leaving Cert.

Yet both subjects, and their abstract irrelevant content, are forced on Irish children, and Fine Gael has no problem with supporting this while singling out Irish for special hatred status and pretending to be against "compulsion". The hypocrisy of Fine Gael is galling.

Of the political parties, I was tempted to vote for Fine Gael for its reform agenda. However, after this, Labour, which is much more progressive on the Irish language, will be getting my vote.

mloc

I find it funny that people refuse to vote for a party based on the fact they plan to give them more of a choice in their lives.

Ireland is a funny place.

Wibbs

Deleted User wrote: »

Well, I need to make it clear I'm open to any and all suggestions to improve the language, including giving snobs the option of not dirtying their kids with bogman speak (Good riddance, off to London with ye) but I'm very much against the bashing of someone else's.

Oh god. You see this is the problem many have with the shrill voices calling for a Gaelgoire nation. It is too often a Chucky/bogman with chip on their shoulders issue's voice. "Off too london with ye?" Jesus christ couldn't you at least be more inventive?

Why wasn't that language English? Sure every country in the world, thanks to the ubiquitous of the United States, speaks English. Could it be to say "We're Israeli"?

Partly but like I said just as much from practicality. Plus english is the other official language(along with Arabic) of Israel. In any case Israel proves my point. Disparate peoples with a host of other languages revived in less than a lifetime what was to all intents and purposes an actual dead language. Yet we have fewer speakers of "our" language as a percentage than we did 100 years ago? 1871 no money being spent on the promotion, nor teaching of Irish. http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/98/Irishin1871.jpg Today, after near 100 years of millions and millions spent and compulsory Irish all over the place and we're having this conversation in English?

Yes clearly the Irish want it. If the peoples of the ex soviet bloc can revive languages in under a decade, why can't we? especially if according to the Gaelgoires the vast majority of Irish people want it? Does not compute. Either the Irish don't really want it, but pay lip service to it, or are too stupid to learn it. I'm thinking the former.

Should we forget our past? throw it away? Does Galway city not exist? Round up the bogmen Gaelgoiri and "concentrate" them?

What gibberish are you writing Sir? Galway city is useful. It doesn't require millions in yearly gov grants and many 100's of 1000's of people chose and have chosen to live there for many many generations. Quite right too. Nice place. I'd live there myself. As for the bogmen concentration camps? Hmmm I could subscribe to that idea. Terrible sad day when the Pale came down*.

My disgust goes as far as my disgust for those who judge based on a person's race.

Wut? No seriously. Wut? Now we're into racism here. Eh I'm Irish. I know that likely troubles you and furrows your brow in the long winter evenings, but there you go.

Ba maith liom e a usaid, ach is mise gan cleachtas. Cloisim e ar usaid ar an mbus i mBAC, agus cuir me ceist ar an cainteoir. Duirt si go raibh e ar usaid as a mathair i Litir Mor. Clisim e ar usaid sna caithrach Gaillimh gach la a raibh me sna caithrach.

Sorry. No Speako Dago. Translation please? I did get something about I'd like to use it but Im not very good. I heard it used on a bus in Dublin(BAC)? and used in the aforementioned Galway. That's me out on the translation front though. In any event, why can't you speak it better? You seem to be quite strongly behind the need for its preservation and revival, yet if my dodgy translation suffices you can't speak it very well. No doubt you will blame the educational system. Then why havent you sought out the evening courses of which there are enough. Many of the free too. There's a chap who usually prowls these threads who has and has learned Irish in a year or so. We Irish are great at excuses, so what's yours?

You ask why do we need to do something to preserve it? Because that's been a ham-fisted mess since the start of the state. If we had done what the Israelis did- Hebrew only street signs, everything done in Hebrew- then the language would be in a similar state as Hebrew is today in Israel. Israel could easily have gone down tyhe route of doing business in English. After all, the land was being handed over from the British, so it would have made the legal and government side of things easy. But no, they chose to do what they could to assert themselves on the international stage as Israeli.

Great in theory and it was tried here to a large extent. When the civil service, the police, the judiciary, teaching, entry into national universities, compulsory in schooling, etc is and has been bound up in this state since it's formation and yet here we are.. Nope didnt work. Why? Again because for all our lip service it does seem we're not really that pushed.

And the gaelgoires, the "professional Irish speakers" know this. All too well. They know that if the crutches were taken away, the language they claim is spoken by 100's of 1000's of people, the language that the majority of want(according to them), would die on the vine and only be spoken by the small(but nonetheless valuable) group of fluent native speakers. You may even get more people wanting to speak it.

My idea: The language needs to be encouraged by the carrot of people interested, not the stick of having to learn it. Wibbs, I get the impression that you're of the mind it should be beaten out of daily life altogether, become the preserve of language professors in ivory towers, beaten out of those who for whatever reason still speak it outside acedemia.

No. Where did I say that? I suspect that's more your cultural insecurity projecting there. It would be nice if it was the preserve of more learned discourse as it was back when we exported the language and classical knowledge all over Europe. Sadly it's not. It regressed into a largely rural and uneducated enclave. It hadn't been the language of academe for many a century. Sadly again. In any event it wouldn't need to be beaten out of daily life. It would die or not based on whether people wanted it.







*That's a joke BTW.

TaraFoxglove

I think this issue raises the interesting topic of how patriotic you are.

Me? Not very. I just think nationality is an accident of birth. I dislike the idea of national anthems, though some (not Ireland's) are great tunes. Don't get me wrong, I really like many things about Ireland but I'm sure I'd be just as happy if I was born on some other free country. Patriotism to me always comes across as a bit defensive.

TaraFoxglove

Dionysus wrote: »

In the real world, however, the overwhelming majority of people never use quadratic equations, Shakespearean poetry or any of that other nonsense that constitutes the English and Maths syllabi after they leave school.

I quote Shakespeare a fair bit.

Have you never heard anyone refer to someone "shuffling off"? That's a Shakespearean reference right there.

Buceph

Dionysus wrote: »

How, then, do you define your Irishness if not by distinctively Irish things?

Geography, my language, support for Irish rugby, my education, my politics, my knowledge, my humour, my ability to drink, my friends. All of those are things that may be common around the world, but they have their own peculiarities here. I have a fairly common Irish reaction to the GAA and bodhráns, I have nothing to do with GAA Culture as an entity, but an English person wouldn't have the same response. Someone not part of Ireland wouldn't be able to react the way I do those things. And my heritage is part of all that, it's not defining, there is no distinct defining element of any part of my Irishness. While a lot of what makes me Irish, and the people I know Irish is different to what makes other people Irish, we would definitely all be part of Irishness together.

I may not like a hooley with crates of Guinness after the poc fada, but it doesn't mean I'm not Irish.

Krusader

mloc wrote: »

I find it funny that people refuse to vote for a party based on the fact they plan to give them more of a choice in their lives.

Ireland is a funny place.

It's also funny that some people have a severe hatred for their national language, mostly only because it was taught badly to them

Indeed, Ireland is a funny place

JeanPierre

it's hard to know

Buceph

TaraFoxglove wrote: »

I think this issue raises the interesting topic of how patriotic you are.

Me? Not very. I just think nationality is an accident of birth. I dislike the idea of national anthems, though some (not Ireland's) are great tunes. Don't get me wrong, I really like many things about Ireland but I'm sure I'd be just as happy if I was born on some other free country. Patriotism to me always comes across as a bit defensive.

I'd be happy to live in pretty much any western democracy on principal, and if I was born there it'd be grand altogether. But I do think there is something valuable to nationality. It's an extension of family, people you'll be happy with because of familiarity, something we can gather around and share, an experience or even fight we commonly have. Like sport, in general I can share Italia 90 memories with Irish people my age and laugh about the same things as seen through the eyes of a five year old. I can do that with other nations too, but the familiarity lessons as you leave national boundaries. That's lessoning as we get more of a "global village" thing going on, but as long as there's an Ireland, it'll always be there.

Dionysus

mloc wrote: »

I find it funny that people refuse to vote for a party based on the fact they plan to give them more of a choice in their lives.

Ireland is a funny place.

Considering that they're still keen on forcing kids to do the (pointless, for the vast majority of students) Maths and English syllabi for the Leaving Cert, this is a specious line of reasoning. Why the double standards? It's not 'choice' which Fine Gael is interested in; it's in realising the prejudice of people such as Brian Hayes, its spokesperson on Education, an individual whose hostility to Irish is well-known. It's about playing to the most ignorant and backward views in Irish society.

If Fine Gael were serious about the language, its ideas for reform would revolve around teaching. Instead of defining itself positively by what it's in favour of - e.g. more effective teaching techniques - it's consciously defining itself by what it's against: Irish. Lame, but no doubt the John Bruton types will be delighted at this latest step against Irish culture/in favour of English culture. So much for Fine Gael's cultural tolerance and inclusiveness. :rolleyes:

NTMK

Dionysus wrote: »

Considering that they're still keen on forcing kids to do the (pointless, for the vast majority of students) Maths and English syllabi for the Leaving Cert, this is a specious line of reasoning. Why the double standards? It's not 'choice' which Fine Gael is interested in; it's in realising the prejudice of people such as Brian Hayes, its spokesperson on Education, an individual whose hostility to Irish is well-known. It's about playing to the most ignorant and backward views in Irish society.

considering LC maths is useful for Science, Engineering and Programing. it isn't pointless for the vast majority of students. LC English is important because it expands your vocabulary

Ill ask again How is irish useful in real life?

Krusader

NTMK wrote: »

considering LC maths is useful for Science, Engineering and Programing. it isn't pointless for the vast majority of students. LC English is important because it expands your vocabulary

Ill ask again How is irish useful in real life?

The same way any language is useful, communication

Dionysus

Buceph wrote: »

Geography, my language, support for Irish rugby, my education, my politics, my knowledge, my humour, my ability to drink, my friends. All of those are things that may be common around the world, but they have their own peculiarities here. I have a fairly common Irish reaction to the GAA and bodhráns, I have nothing to do with GAA Culture as an entity, but an English person wouldn't have the same response. Someone not part of Ireland wouldn't be able to react the way I do those things. And my heritage is part of all that, it's not defining, there is no distinct defining element of any part of my Irishness. While a lot of what makes me Irish, and the people I know Irish is different to what makes other people Irish, we would definitely all be part of Irishness together.

I may not like a hooley with crates of Guinness after the poc fada, but it doesn't mean I'm not Irish.

Fair enough but Irishness exists by virtue of being distinct, just as any other national identity does. Rugby is played in many places across the world - what's "Irish" about it? English is spoken by many around the world - what's "Irish" about it? And so on.

If your Irishness is based upon some minor peculiarity of Englishness, which I understand is the case, then why don't you just call yourself English? Surely it's just nationalistic to bother making a distinction? I respectfully suggest that your Irishness appears to be a statement of verbal identity, rather than your identity - never mind your culture (although most people generally, and wrongly, equate identity with culture).

TaraFoxglove

NTMK wrote: »

considering LC maths is useful for Science, Engineering and Programing. it isn't pointless for the vast majority of students.

Agreed, LC Honours Maths really stood to me in university, I was so glad I put in the effort to do it.

NTMK

Crosáidí wrote: »

The same way any language is useful, communication

ok let me rephrase that, why should irish remain compulsory

Dionysus

NTMK wrote: »

considering LC maths is useful for Science, Engineering and Programing. it isn't pointless for the vast majority of students. LC English is important because it expands your vocabulary

Are you seriously contending that the vast majority of students 1) are going to enter the above three areas when they leave school, and 2) will need, say, LC trigonometry or calculus for doing, say, pharmacy in science?

TaraFoxglove

Dionysus wrote: »

Are you seriously contending that the vast majority of students 1) are going to enter the above three areas when they leave school, and 2) will need, say, LC trigonometry or calculus for doing, say, pharmacy in science?

Yes, I studied those things as part of my science degree.

Krusader

NTMK wrote: »

ok let me rephrase that, why should irish remain compulsory

The same way Maths and English should be compulsary

Dionysus

TaraFoxglove wrote: »

I quote Shakespeare a fair bit.

Have you never heard anyone refer to someone "shuffling off"? That's a Shakespearean reference right there.

Shakespeare was one of the finest plagiarists in world literature - and for some reason we weren't taught that - so it's hard to know what was actually his own and what he plagiarised.

Nevertheless, should every child in Ireland be forced to learn Shakespearean poetry for their LC, just because one or two of them might be partial to some Late Elizabethan turn of phrase from time to time later in life?

NTMK

Dionysus wrote: »

Are you seriously contending that the vast majority of students 1) are going to enter the above three areas when they leave school, and 2) will need, say, LC trigonometry or calculus for doing, say, pharmacy in science?

no but quite a substantial amount do. about 30% of students enter Science, Engineering and medicine which all require good maths skills


and yes you do in fact need calculus in pharmacy

TaraFoxglove

Dionysus wrote: »

Shakespeare was one of the finest plagiarists in world literature - and for some reason we weren't taught that - so it's hard to know what was actually his own and what he plagiarised.

We'll never know what he plagiarised or didn't plagarise, so I don't really see what this adds, TBH.