Fine Gael policy to end compusory Irish till Leaving Cert

Iwasfrozen

Crosáidí wrote: »

The same way any language is useful, communication

So the only reason Irish should remain conpulsory is because of communication? That would be fine except we already have a language for comunication. So shouldn't we aim not to overlap the utility of school subjects?

Krusader

Don't all subjects overlap each other in certain areas

Dionysus

NTMK wrote: »

no but quite a substantial amount do. about 30% of students enter Science, Engineering and medicine which all require good maths skills

In other words, the number of people who go into courses which need Maths is even a minority of those who go to college, according to your own figures. Meanwhile, all students in secondary school are forced to do Maths. How is that justifiable, even going on your own figures?

Chaotic_Forces

It depends, I went to an all Irish school and picked it up quickly from age 8 (till then I was in an English school). I learned French, German and Irish till the Junior Cert. After that it was just Irish and German. But even then... Irish might have been easy but the about of tripe you had to learn for it was a joke. It was basically trying to come up with poems and stories and all sorts for you to learn; it was basically "oh we had great Irish poets too, learn about some random tripe". It would be nice if they taught it like an actual language instead of another version of english.

NTMK

Crosáidí wrote: »

Don't all subjects overlap each other in certain areas

True but does irish have any stand out points that make it an advantage over any other leaving cert subjects

Dionysus

TaraFoxglove wrote: »

Yes, I studied those things as part of my science degree.

OK, so you used some of your leaving cert maths to do some of your science degree? It doesn't sound like it was all that necessary to spend a couple of years doing maths just for that. Furthermore, as you were going to study maths-based things in college, you could have chosen to do Maths, just as somebody doing French could choose to do French in secondary school.

Moreover, the vast majority of people who are forced to do Maths won't be going to college to learn any of these things - yet they are forced to do maths for the LC. Maybe the authors of Fine Gael's new anti-Irish policy can explain why their apparent opposition to "compulsory" subjects for the LC doesn't extend to the Maths and English syllabi.

NTMK

Dionysus wrote: »

In other words, the number of people who go into courses which need Maths is even a minority of those who go to college, according to your own figures. Meanwhile, all students in secondary school are forced to do Maths. How is that justifiable, even going on your own figures?

that minorty require for the most part HL maths
you still require lc maths for Business and teaching in college would make maths a requirment for the majority of students

TaraFoxglove

Dionysus wrote: »

OK, so you used some of your leaving cert maths to do some of your science degree? It doesn't sound like it was all that necessary to spend a couple of years doing maths just for that.

It was very necessary, I would have been lost without it!

ricero

Irish is gone let's face it. It's only spoke in gaelteacht regions and in classes rooms because kids are forced to. The vast majority of people who want to keep it are either smug ****ers, ra heads and Irish teachers (who most only care about there pay checks and not about the kids learning)
. Fair play finna Gael the amount of kids that have missed out on a college course because of this language and the way it was terribly taught. I know that most dubs I meet hate this language and even the vast majority of cultchies agree with me. Hope finna Gael get into power

Chaotic_Forces

TaraFoxglove wrote: »

It was very necessary, I would have been lost without it!

I'm betting that a lot of it wasn't of any use, though?

TaraFoxglove

A few years ago I read an article that stated that artificial organ transplantation was being held back, despite it being better in many ways than organic transplantation, to keep transplant surgeons in work as their field is highly specialised.

I wonder is keeping Irish teachers in their jobs another reason to keep Irish compulsory?

Chaotic_Forces

ricero wrote: »

Irish is gone let's face it. It's only spoke in gaelteacht regions and in classes rooms because kids are forced to. The vast majority of people who want to keep it are either smug ****ers, ra heads and Irish teachers (who most only care about there pay checks and not about the kids learning)
. Fair play finna Gael the amount of kids that have missed out on a college course because of this language and the way it was terribly taught. I know that most dubs I meet hate this language and even the vast majority of cultchies agree with me. Hope finna Gael get into power

Ya what? I'd have to say most of my friends who either left school early or just never paid attention would wish to be able to speak Irish properly. And I'm from the inner city. Besides, TCD allows it as the one foreign language so it pays off if you go there; plus we can all speak English anyway so we may as well learn something that we can be happy with.
As racist as it sounds, Ireland is becoming too multi-cultral and if we chop off our own language we're not gonna have much left.
And all of my Irish teachers actually genuinely gave a damn about us learning so I dunno what school you want to but the teachers I had teaching us Irish weren't just about pay checks.

NTMK

Chaotic_Forces wrote: »

I'm betting that a lot of it wasn't of any use, though?

I'm doing science as well and you do use the most of the LC Maths topics i cant actually think of what i dont use

Buceph

Dionysus wrote: »

Fair enough but Irishness exists by virtue of being distinct, just as any other national identity does. Rugby is played in many places across the world - what's "Irish" about it? English is spoken by many around the world - what's "Irish" about it? And so on.

If your Irishness is based upon some minor peculiarity of Englishness, which I understand is the case, then why don't you just call yourself English? Surely it's just nationalistic to bother making a distinction? I respectfully suggest that your Irishness appears to be a statement of verbal identity, rather than your identity - never mind your culture (although most people generally, and wrongly, equate identity with culture).

Are you saying Irish Rugby doesn't have lore built up around it, stories, myths, that Irish Rugby isn't a sacred artifact to generations of Irish people, that there aren't Irish traditions associated with it, that God Save the Queen being played when Croke Park was opened for the first time when Ireland played England and the subsequent Irish win aren't part of the collective psyche, all because England invented rugby? Are you saying the Hiberno-English language, as expressed by numerous renowned Irish authors of all classes and beliefs over many years, with its variations that signal familiarity or grief or joy or exuberence between two people passing on a boreen doesn't count because other people speak broadly the same language?

You seem to have a predetermined, exclusive list of what can and can't be counted as Irish, no matter the experience I profess to have of Ireland.

And as for the English snipe, would you be surprised to learn that Ireland was a British colony for quite a while, forced to adopt British customs and a group who held on to a culture by keeping it under the radar and adapting it.. And yes, I do believe cultural differences are decreasing between nations, but that means the peculiarities become more important.


Edit: If you want to confine culture lets leave it at Drinking and Begrudgery.

Dionysus

TaraFoxglove wrote: »

It was very necessary, I would have been lost without it!

Which is not a reason why the vast majority of students, who have no wish to enter a college course which needs Maths, are forced to do Maths for the LC. You could, as I said, have chosen Maths as an option, just as somebody who wants to study German in university can choose it for the LC.

If compulsory Irish is indefensible for Fine Gael, then it is only prejudice and hypocrisy which prevents them from applying the same standard to compulsory Maths and English in the LC.

TaraFoxglove

Chaotic_Forces wrote: »

I'm betting that a lot of it wasn't of any use, though?

I took pure Maths as one of my first year uni subjects, as opposed to some of my friends who took the mickey mouse Maths Methods subject. I specialised in Microbiology and noticed that my Maths Methods friends really lagged at the mathematical side of it. There are a lot of calculations to do, and graphs to interpret and Maths definitely helped with that.

Chaotic_Forces

TaraFoxglove wrote: »

I took pure Maths as one of my first year uni subjects, as opposed to some of my friends who took the mickey mouse Maths Methods subject. I specialised in Microbiology and noticed that my Maths Methods friends really lagged at the mathematical side of it. There are a lot of calculations to do, and graphs to interpret and Maths definitely helped with that.

Oh, sorry. I meant the leaving cert. maths. I was just wondering if it was all useful to you or if it was just a waste in some parts.

NTMK wrote: »

I'm doing science as well and you do use the most of the LC Maths topics i cant actually think of what i dont use

Really? Even the random stuff like Matrcies and so on? Don't get me wrong, I'll take both of your words for it. I just never understood why you need to study certain things that never really seem useful.

NTMK

Chaotic_Forces wrote: »

Oh, sorry. I meant the leaving cert. maths. I was just wondering if it was all useful to you or if it was just a waste in some parts.



Really? Even the random stuff like Matrcies and so on? Don't get me wrong, I'll take both of your words for it. I just never understood why you need to study certain things that never really seem useful.

yep even matrices

Krusader

NTMK wrote: »

True but does irish have any stand out points that make it an advantage over any other leaving cert subjects

It's the subject that reinforces your cultural identity and self-worth

Yet but some how people think if a subject doesn't steer you on the path of getting a job so you can be materialistic and buy shít you don't need, it is worthless. Nurture your soul, and Irish is food for the Irish soul, much the same as Welsh is for the Welsh soul, English for the English soul, etc.
I guarantee if we all spoke Irish we would be more fulfilled and better off as a nation

Chaotic_Forces

NTMK wrote: »

yep even matrices

It's strange how it works out like that, that you don't need it but it still helps.

mloc

Why is it that people in Ireland, again and again, want their government to make choices for them, choices that they should be able to make themselves?

This is just about choice. If you want to do Irish at LC, you will still be able to. If you don't, you won't. Simple.

Buceph

Maths is an education in logic.
English is an education in communication in our spoken tongue.
Irish is an education of whispered notions.

Cathaoirleach

ricero wrote: »

Irish is gone let's face it. It's only spoke in gaelteacht regions and in classes rooms. People who want to keep it are either smug ****ers, ra heads and Irish teachers

Yikes. I speak Irish with my friends, and we are neither terrorists, teachers nor smug fúckers.

Orange Order, much?

Krusader

mloc wrote: »

Why is it that people in Ireland, again and again, want their government to make choices for them, choices that they should be able to make themselves?

This is just about choice. If you want to do Irish at LC, you will still be able to. If you don't, you won't. Simple.

Because the magority of teenagers wouldn't do anything if they had the choice

mloc

Crosáidí wrote: »

Because the magority of teenagers wouldn't do anything if they had the choice

I think in the case of under 18 year olds it's their parents that will be deciding. I wouldn't want my kids to learn Irish, so why should they?

Edit:

Unless, of course, they had wanted to themselves at the time.

TaraFoxglove

Crosáidí wrote: »

It's the subject that reinforces your cultural identity and self-worth

Yet but some how people think if a subject doesn't steer you on the path of getting a job so you can be materialistic and buy shít you don't need, it is worthless. Nurture your soul, and Irish is food for the Irish soul, much the same as Welsh is for the Welsh soul, English for the English soul, etc.
I guarantee if we all spoke Irish we would be more fulfilled and better off as a nation

Yes, because all people who don't like or care for Irish are soulless consumerists. :rolleyes:

Gaelghoirs don't have the market cornered on what it means to be Irish, you know. And it's bull like you just trotted out that pushes people away even more.

ricero

Chaotic_Forces wrote: »

Ya what? I'd have to say most of my friends who either left school early or just never paid attention would wish to be able to speak Irish properly. And I'm from the inner city. Besides, TCD allows it as the one foreign language so it pays off if you go there; plus we can all speak English anyway so we may as well learn something that we can be happy with.
As racist as it sounds, Ireland is becoming too multi-cultral and if we chop off our own language we're not gonna have much left.
And all of my Irish teachers actually genuinely gave a damn about us learning so I dunno what school you want to but the teachers I had teaching us Irish weren't just about pay checks.

Ok let's get rid of the blacks and Asians and I still bet the language would still suck and be hated. All our teachers would do is show us Irish language films it was terrible they completly gave up on us there was 4 people doing honours Irish out of over 60 people with over 50 per cent doing foundation I'm sorry but this is happening all over the country these days the language is on it's last legs we should put it down. Making it opitional should be brought in it would make way for students who struggle in the language to learn new and more important languages or subjects.

Krusader

TaraFoxglove wrote: »

Yes, because all people who don't like or care for Irish are soulless consumerists. :rolleyes:

Gaelghoirs don't have the market cornered on what it means to be Irish, you know.

tell me what it means to be irish in your eyes then, just a ? i'm intrigued by your answer

fkt

For all the people against this - When you're mother falls sick and has to spend a potentially critical two days on a trolley in some scruffy understaffed hospital - Remember that the money that could have been spent saving a life is being spent teaching us a subject which will NEVER EVER help this country overcome ANY of its many problems

Krusader

ricero wrote: »

Ok let's get rid of the blacks and Asians and I still bet the language would still suck and be hated. All our teachers would do is show us Irish language films it was terrible they completly gave up on us there was 4 people doing honours Irish out of over 60 people with over 50 per cent doing foundation I'm sorry but this is happening all over the country these days the language is on it's last legs we should put it down. Making it opitional should be brought in it would make way for students who struggle in the language to learn new and more important languages or subjects.

Do you speak any other languages

Chaotic_Forces

ricero wrote: »

Ok let's get rid of the blacks and Asians and I still bet the language would still suck and be hated. All our teachers would do is show us Irish language films it was terrible they completly gave up on us there was 4 people doing honours Irish out of over 60 people with over 50 per cent doing foundation I'm sorry but this is happening all over the country these days the language is on it's last legs we should put it down. Making it opitional should be brought in it would make way for students who struggle in the language to learn new and more important languages or subjects.

Alright, it sounded xenophobic, it's not really a racial thing I guess.
It's like us going to Poland and not speaking a word of English; we'll lose it eventually. If we stop speaking Irish altogether then we're losing our language.

And I am sorry your teachers were a waste but there are actually teachers who did make sure everyone did the best they could.
Actually, all it takes is going to an all Irish school; if we had more in the country then you'd have kids who are basically fluent in both Irish and English.

Krusader

fkt wrote: »

For all the people against this - When you're mother falls sick and has to spend a potentially critical two days on a trolley in some scruffy understaffed hospital - Remember that the money that could have been spent saving a life is being spent teaching us a subject which will NEVER EVER help this country overcome ANY of its many problems

that's a ridiculous argument, same could be said about many many more things that taxes are spend on that i or you neither care about

fkt

Crosáidí wrote: »

that's a ridiculous argument, same could be said about many many more things that taxes are spend on that i or you neither care about

Like...

NTMK

Crosáidí wrote: »

It's the subject that reinforces your cultural identity and self-worth

Yet but some how people think if a subject doesn't steer you on the path of getting a job so you can be materialistic and buy shít you don't need, it is worthless. Nurture your soul, and Irish is food for the Irish soul, much the same as Welsh is for the Welsh soul, English for the English soul, etc.
I guarantee if we all spoke Irish we would be more fulfilled and better off as a nation

yeah but its not essential. Ive great pride in my culture and nationality and i cant speak irish. ive done this by studying my ancestors and their history and that of the country's. I dont need the language to identify myself as irish

Krusader

fkt wrote: »

Like...

many sports
Nama

mloc

I think everybody finds their own definition of being Irish; it's certainly not up to anyone else to define it for them.

Except of course the people who give you your passport.

ricero

Crosáidí wrote: »

Do you speak any other languages

Yes fluent in French a brilliant and gorgous language

fkt

Crosáidí wrote: »

many sports
Nama

Sports have a huge effect on many of our lives. I don't care about golf but have no problem with money being spent on it as it does benefit some people. Irish doesn't

Do you even know what NAMA does?

Krusader

ricero wrote: »

Yes fluent in French a brilliant and gorgous language

So you can understand the effects that bi-lingualism has on the mind and the world around, and how much better it is to be bi-lingual than a monoglot

Cathaoirleach

ricero wrote: »

Yes fluent in French a brilliant and gorgous language

Irish is a beautiful language.

fkt

Cathaoirleach wrote: »

Irish is a beautiful language.

No-one cares though.

ricero

Chaotic_Forces wrote: »

Alright, it sounded xenophobic, it's not really a racial thing I guess.
It's like us going to Poland and not speaking a word of English; we'll lose it eventually. If we stop speaking Irish altogether then we're losing our language.

And I am sorry your teachers were a waste but there are actually teachers who did make sure everyone did the best they could.
Actually, all it takes is going to an all Irish school; if we had more in the country then you'd have kids who are basically fluent in both Irish and English.

But I know many parents who don't want the children to leanr the Irish language instead they have sent there children to English French schools although they do learn Irish aswell but speak French like you would in a all Irish school and they love it. French is a popular and a so called buisness language I think children should learn A European language. It wasn't just my teachers I know to many people who have told me their teachers were rubbish

Chaotic_Forces

fkt wrote: »

Sports have a huge effect on many of our lives. I don't care about golf but have no problem with money being spent on it as it does benefit some people. Irish doesn't

Do you even know what NAMA does?

I hate all Irish sports, I think they're a waste of taxpayers money; infact, when I need medical treatment and it's a few minutes late because of some stupid sport then that proves the sport shouldn't be allowed.

You see how illogical your argument was?

Snakeblood

Cathaoirleach wrote: »

Irish is a beautiful language.

That very few people speak. French has a multiple purpose: Learning to speak a beautiful language, helping you communicate with possibly millions and helping you find a job. Irish has less advantages and people have no choice in whether they learn it.

Chaotic_Forces

fkt wrote: »

No-one cares though.

We get it, you hate Irish and think anyone who even slightly likes it is a tool. You don't need to keep making the same points.

Krusader

fkt wrote: »

Sports have a huge effect on many of our lives. I don't care about golf but have no problem with money being spent on it as it does benefit some people. Irish doesn't

Do you even know what NAMA does?

Yes i do know what Nama does.

Irish has a huge effect on many irish peoples lives throughout the country also. Just because it doesn't effect yours, doesn't mean it doesn't effect other peoples lives

ricero

Cathaoirleach wrote: »

Irish is a beautiful language.

I wouldn't agree it sounds like a load of ducks with bronchitis

Snakeblood

Crosáidí wrote: »

Yes i do know what Nama does.

Irish has a huge effect on many irish peoples lives throughout the country also. Just because it doesn't effect yours, doesn't mean it doesn't effect other peoples lives

It doesn't affect as many lives as it should considering the manhours that are devoted to forcing it on people.

Cathaoirleach

fkt wrote: »

Sports have a huge effect on many of our lives. I don't care about golf but have no problem with money being spent on it as it does benefit some people. Irish doesn't

Irish benefits me greatly and opens up a whole different world for me. Sport doesn't.

Nah, I don't like sport, really. Thing is, you would hate to see money 'wasted' on Gaelic games, wouldn't you?

Snakeblood

Cathaoirleach wrote: »

Irish benefits me greatly and opens up a whole different world for me. Sport doesn't.

Nah, I don't like sport.

Don't do sport. Problem solved.

Don't do Irish: wait, no choice.