Fine Gael policy to end compusory Irish till Leaving Cert

Chaotic_Forces

Snakeblood wrote: »

It doesn't affect as many lives as it should considering the manhours that are devoted to forcing it on people.

The whooping 40 minutes a day for five days a week which is about... 200 minutes per week?

Yeah, I agree the horrible manhours and slavery they have going on. :rolleyes:

fkt

Crosáidí wrote: »

Yes i do know what Nama does.

Irish has a huge effect on many irish peoples lives throughout the country also. Just because it doesn't effect yours, doesn't mean it doesn't effect other peoples lives

How does it effect people? Seriously?

Snakeblood

Chaotic_Forces wrote: »

The whooping 40 minutes a day for five days a week which is about... 200 minutes per week?

Yeah, I agree the horrible manhours and slavery they have going on. :rolleyes:

Add up all the kids who have to do it every week. They're devoting time to something too.

Chaotic_Forces

Snakeblood wrote: »

Don't do sport. Problem solved.

Don't do Irish: wait, no choice.

Move to a different country then? Seriously, if you don't like how your children would be educated then move. If you actually were that good of a parent (hypothetically, I'm not having a go at anyone), you would gladly move to give your child a good chance in life.

Snakeblood

fkt wrote: »

How does it effect people? Seriously?

People in the Gaeltacht etc get use from it. It's just not enough to justify everyone wasting their time on it.

Naikon

This is good news. Regardless of the diehard elitists, irish remains a basically unused lang. Look at localisation choices for most publications/documentation. You don't irish translations for a good reason. Irish outside of the geal schools = DEAD

Snakeblood

Chaotic_Forces wrote: »

Move to a different country then? Seriously, if you don't like how your children would be educated then move. If you actually were that good of a parent (hypothetically, I'm not having a go at anyone), you would gladly move to give your child a good chance in life.

I think 'if you don't like it, move' is a mindbendingly stupid argument and not one I particularly feel like engaging with. It means you've got nothing to answer with.

Cathaoirleach

ricero wrote: »

I wouldn't agree it sounds like a load of ducks with bronchitis

French sounds like a load of ponses sucking nettles to me.

Chaotic_Forces

Snakeblood wrote: »

Add up all the kids who have to do it every week. They're devoting time to something too.

I dunno about you but learning Irish was more fun that learning about the history of WW1 and WW2. Hell, it was more fun than learning how different feckin' rock formations are made in georgraphy.

And don;t even get me started on half the other subjects "science"... yeah great, didn't help me a bit so far in life, same with history. irish on the other hand... well let's see, several government services are in Irish and it's faster to get them, like a licience (or however it's spelt :P).

Naikon

Cathaoirleach wrote: »

French sounds like a load of ponses sucking nettles to me.

French has a larger userbase though. Make no mistake, I am no fan of French, but it's a far better investment to learn than something like Irish...

Cathaoirleach

Snakeblood wrote: »

Don't do sport. Problem solved.

Don't do Irish: wait, no choice.

*loud buzzer*

You're wrong, again. I was forced to do PE in school, I funting hated it, but I did it anyway.

Next.

Chaotic_Forces

Snakeblood wrote: »

I think 'if you don't like it, move' is a mindbendingly stupid argument and not one I particularly feel like engaging with. It means you've got nothing to answer with.

Well, it's our first language, if you prefer your kids to learn more useful things, move to a place where they will learn it.
It isn't an argument I'm presenting; it's a logical solution to the minority of people who think that kids shouldn't learn it.

fkt

Chaotic_Forces wrote: »

Move to a different country then? Seriously, if you don't like how your children would be educated then move. If you actually were that good of a parent (hypothetically, I'm not having a go at anyone), you would gladly move to give your child a good chance in life.

I'm doing my LC. I wouldn't want my children brought up the way I am today, therefore I will indeed leave the country once I've got my education.

Meanwhile, I have to sit through forty minutes of something that will never benefit me every day

Snakeblood

Chaotic_Forces wrote: »

I dunno about you but learning Irish was more fun that learning about the history of WW1 and WW2. Hell, it was more fun than learning how different feckin' rock formations are made in georgraphy.

And don;t even get me started on half the other subjects "science"... yeah great, didn't help me a bit so far in life, same with history. irish on the other hand... well let's see, several government services are in Irish and it's faster to get them, like a licience (or however it's spelt :P).

You had a choice in learning about history, Geography and other things. All I'm saying is give people a similar choice about Irish. I'm not saying remove it from the curriculum, but leave it for people who want to learn it, like with most other things. That way the course can be streamlined to appeal to them specifically, other people sitting in the class bored out of their minds won't waste the teachers, other students, or their own times, there'll be less and hopefully better Irish teachers.

Chaotic_Forces

fkt wrote: »

I'm doing my LC. I wouldn't want my children brought up the way I am today, therefore I will indeed leave the country once I've got my education.

Meanwhile, I have to sit through forty minutes of something that will never benefit me every day

Question: is your Irish teacher a good teacher? If not, I can completely understand why you have no interest in the subject.

And frankly, I do think the education in this country is a joke but believe it or not it's still impressive to say "oh I'm fluent in English, Irish and X european language".

Snakeblood

Chaotic_Forces wrote: »

Well, it's our first language, if you prefer your kids to learn more useful things, move to a place where they will learn it.
It isn't an argument I'm presenting; it's a logical solution to the minority of people who think that kids shouldn't learn it.

Our first language: that very few people actually speak or are proficient in.

It's a stupid solution. it really is. It's a paucity of imagination that thinks that the best solution to a problem is to leave rather than to try and fix it.

Naikon

fkt wrote: »

Meanwhile, I have to sit through forty minutes of something that will never benefit me every day

Walk out of the Irish class/don't show up. I assume you are 18, right? Worst case, you can always sit the Leaving somewhere other than your local shool. It's 40 mins a day of YOUR life you won't be getting back. I just didn't even bother showing up. Worked for me.

Snakeblood

Chaotic_Forces wrote: »

Question: is your Irish teacher a good teacher? If not, I can completely understand why you have no interest in the subject.

And frankly, I do think the education in this country is a joke but believe it or not it's still impressive to say "oh I'm fluent in English, Irish and X european language".

It's more impressive to say you're fluent in English and 2 other european languages.

Naikon

Snakeblood wrote: »

It's more impressive to say you're fluent in English and 2 other european languages.

It's even more impressive to say you are fluent in 3 programming langs + English : )

Chaotic_Forces

Snakeblood wrote: »

You had a choice in learning about history, Geography and other things. All I'm saying is give people a similar choice about Irish. I'm not saying remove it from the curriculum, but leave it for people who want to learn it, like with most other things. That way the course can be streamlined to appeal to them specifically, other people sitting in the class bored out of their minds won't waste the teachers, other students, or their own times, there'll be less and hopefully better Irish teachers.

MY F**KING ARSE DID I!

You aren't given a choice till after the JC.

Snakeblood wrote: »

Our first language: that very few people actually speak or are proficient in.

It's a stupid solution. it really is. It's a paucity of imagination that thinks that the best solution to a problem is to leave rather than to try and fix it.

How is it stupid? You don't like the first language spoken here so leave. I'm not being rude to you but if you don't like how your children wil lbe raised just pack up and go when you have the cash instead of raising them here where they'll be forced to learn Irish.

Buceph

Chaotic_Forces wrote: »

Move to a different country then? Seriously, if you don't like how your children would be educated then move. If you actually were that good of a parent (hypothetically, I'm not having a go at anyone), you would gladly move to give your child a good chance in life.

Why should he have to move? Can't he just change this country, it is partly his.

Chaotic_Forces

Snakeblood wrote: »

It's more impressive to say you're fluent in English and 2 other european languages.

Uh... Irish is a European language...

ricero

Cathaoirleach wrote: »

French sounds like a load of ponses sucking nettles to me.

More like sucking on pussy the amount of hot ass it gets ya is unbeleivable the women love it.

Snakeblood

Naikon wrote: »

Walk out of the Irish class/don't show up. I assume you are 18, right? Worst case, you can always sit the Leaving somewhere other than your local shool. It's 40 mins a day of YOUR life you won't be getting back. I just didn't even bother showing up. Worked for me.

Why should people have to do that though? It's insane that the solution is 'go to another school/another country' because you won't learn a language that is of little practical use.

Chaotic_Forces

Buceph wrote: »

Why should he have to move? Can't he just change this country, it is partly his.

He doesn't like how things are run here. If you don't like something and can't change it so you're happy, you leave.

Dionysus

Buceph wrote: »

Are you saying Irish Rugby doesn't have lore built up around it, stories, myths, that Irish Rugby isn't a sacred artifact to generations of Irish people, that there aren't Irish traditions associated with it, that God Save the Queen being played when Croke Park was opened for the first time when Ireland played England and the subsequent Irish win aren't part of the collective psyche, all because England invented rugby? Are you saying the Hiberno-English language, as expressed by numerous renowned Irish authors of all classes and beliefs over many years, with its variations that signal familiarity or grief or joy or exuberence between two people passing on a boreen doesn't count because other people speak broadly the same language?

"Irishness", perhaps, if we redefine it as a regional English identity akin to the way regions like Kent or Northumbria are "Kentish" or "Northumbrian". These so-called traits of "Irishness" don't amount to a national identity, which in the vast majority of European countries has revolved around substantial things like language and legal systems since the late medieval period. To try to claim an Irish national identity but strip the nation of all its distinctive substance is, at best, pointless and, at worst, dishonest and tribal.

Buceph wrote: »

You seem to have a predetermined, exclusive list of what can and can't be counted as Irish, no matter the experience I profess to have of Ireland.

Well, having a distinctive language is certainly considered central to having a distinctive identity in most states in Europe. It's not my list. Distinctive aspects of a culture are invariably used as markers of identity everywhere. All identities depend upon such relatively fundamental distinctions.

Buceph wrote: »

And as for the English snipe

It wasn't a snipe. Why you assume there's something wrong with being English is very strange given that you clearly identify more with English culture than Irish culture. There is, obviously, much merit in that culture as there is in other European cultures. This is, however, about people rejecting Irish culture and repackaging English culture as "Irishness". It strikes me as being profoundly dishonest and tribal. There's nothing of substance to defend, so why make a point of defending it by claiming it's part of "Irishness". What's wrong with accepting it's English and enjoying/playing/speaking it without feeling the need to dress it up in a green jersey? I'll never understand why the Irish people whose "Irishness" is so culturally English can't be honest about this Englishness. It's much more respectable. At the moment, the denial is like a passive-aggressive anglophobia.

Buceph wrote: »

would you be surprised to learn that Ireland was a British colony for quite a while, forced to adopt British customs and a group who held on to a culture by keeping it under the radar and adapting it

'Adopting' British customs or replacing Irish customs with them? Think of your own views on Irish culture/language/sport and be honest.

Buceph wrote: »

And yes, I do believe cultural differences are decreasing between nations, but that means the peculiarities become more important.

Why? Is that not just tribal/backward (whatever other epithet you might apply to the parish-based culture of the GAA)?

fkt

Naikon wrote: »

Walk out of the Irish class/don't show up. I assume you are 18, right? Worst case, you can always sit the Leaving somewhere other than your local shool. It's 40 mins a day of YOUR life you won't be getting back. I just didn't even bother showing up. Worked for me.

I'm 17.

I could not turn up, but then I will fail the subject and won't get into a course.

Chaotic_Forces

Snakeblood wrote: »

Why should people have to do that though? It's insane that the solution is 'go to another school/another country' because you won't learn a language that is of little practical use.

Are you honestly telling me that schools and Ireland should cater to a handful of people? And believe it or not, you are still just a handful of people compared to the hundreds of thousands that want their kids to learn Irish.

Chaotic_Forces

fkt wrote: »

I'm 17.

I could not turn up, but then I will fail the subject and won't get into a course.

Here's the problem: you refuse to take part in the class, you'll get kicked out of school (even at age 18), you get kicked out of school and try to join another one, explain you got kicked out for not attending Irish and guess what? They'll more than likely not accept you either.

fkt

Chaotic_Forces wrote: »

Question: is your Irish teacher a good teacher? If not, I can completely understand why you have no interest in the subject.

And frankly, I do think the education in this country is a joke but believe it or not it's still impressive to say "oh I'm fluent in English, Irish and X european language".

I have no interest in the subject because it will never benefit me, nothing to do with the teacher

oranje

NTMK wrote: »

yeah but its not essential. Ive great pride in my culture and nationality and i cant speak irish. ive done this by studying my ancestors and their history and that of the country's. I dont need the language to identify myself as irish

If you are proud of Ireland's past though surely it's not such a big ask to learn and speak Irish? That's what I don't get if people are so proud of Ireland and its history. For most of its history the majority of Irish people did not speak English. Their language is in the name of practically every Irish town in a bastardized form. How crazy is it that Irish people say the names of Irish towns every day and yet have no clue what the main means unless they know it in Irish?
People are so proud of speaking English but what's so great about that? Every educated northern European speaks English and often speaks and writes it better as a second language than English speakers do as a first. Icelanders have access to American culture but also have their own ancient tongue which they didn't give up for Danish.
I just don't get it. I rarely meet Irish people who make an effort to speak any other language (even French after five years of school). In Holland most Irish people I know think that learning Dutch is a waste of time. The ones that speak other languages normally speak Irish too, that is hardly a coincidence.

Chaotic_Forces

fkt wrote: »

I have no interest in the subject because it will never benefit me, nothing to do with the teacher

And why didn't you ask your parents to send you to a school up north? You knew that you had to take Irish so... why didn't you try to avoid the fiaso altogether?

Naikon

fkt wrote: »

I'm 17.

I could not turn up, but then I will fail the subject and won't get into a course.

If you are doing more than 6 subjects, just drop it and focus on the others for points. Not every college requires Irish. Even then, a good loophole is to apply to an IT in a related course, pass first year, then apply to the original course through 'direct transfer'. Instant bypass of all that CAO crap, which means only your first year college results count. Are you actually doing OK in Irish? If not, stuff it. It's worked for me.

lets say if fine gael form the next government, and enda is taoiseach, how long would im take before Irish is non-compulsory for leaving cert?
a year? 18 months? 2 years? 3 years?

Chaotic_Forces

oranje wrote: »

If you are proud of Ireland's past though surely it's not such a big ask to learn and speak Irish? That's what I don't get if people are so proud of Ireland and its history. For most of its history the majority of Irish people did not speak English. Their language is in the name of practically every Irish town in a bastardized form. How crazy is it that Irish people say the names of Irish towns every day and yet have no clue what the main means unless they know it in Irish?
People are so proud of speaking English but what's so great about that? Every educated northern European speaks English and often speaks and writes it better as a second language than English speakers do as a first. Icelanders have access to American culture but also have their own ancient tongue which they didn't give up for Danish.
I just don't get it. I rarely meet Irish people who make an effort to speak any other language (even French after five years of school). In Holland most Irish people I know think that learning Dutch is a waste of time. The ones that speak other languages normally speak Irish too, that is hardly a coincidence.

See, the problem is two things: you learn a language easier when you're younger and secondly, when you're younger you have less motivation on top of school work already to learn something else. At least that's how I saw it.

Snakeblood

Chaotic_Forces wrote: »

MY F**KING ARSE DID I!

You aren't given a choice till after the JC.



How is it stupid? You don't like the first language spoken here so leave. I'm not being rude to you but if you don't like how your children wil lbe raised just pack up and go when you have the cash instead of raising them here where they'll be forced to learn Irish.

It's stupid because no one I know speaks the first language on a regular basis. It seems that what would make sense in that situation is dropping it as a first language because so few people speak it.

Telling me to leave is actually:1 rude, 2: stupid because it tells me you think I don't really belong here if i think Irish is a waste of time. You can keep your parenting and geographic tips for someone who is interested in them.

NTMK

Chaotic_Forces wrote: »

Are you honestly telling me that schools and Ireland should cater to a handful of people? And believe it or not, you are still just a handful of people compared to the hundreds of thousands that want their kids to learn Irish.

Whats the problem with it being optional? the students who want to do it can and those who dont dont have to

fkt

Naikon wrote: »

If you are doing more than 6 subjects, just drop it and focus on the others for points. Not every college requires Irish. Even then, a good loophole is to apply to an IT in a related course, pass first year, then apply to the original course through 'direct transfer'. Instant bypass of all that CAO crap, which means only your first year college results count. Are you actually doing OK in Irish? If not, stuff it. It's worked for me.

I have my CAO form done for courses which require a pass in Irish. I will pass it absolutely no problem at all. It's not the difficulty of the subject that is my problem, it's that it's a waste of every students time every day

mossyc123

fkt wrote: »

Meanwhile, I have to sit through forty minutes of something that will never benefit me every day

As I had to with Maths, English and Irish when I did my Leaving.

Nothing I studied from 5th year onwards in Maths benefited me in any way at all.

All I have ever needed is basic arithmethic which I had down long before my Junior.
And I have worked in roles that involved relatively complicated numeracy for most of my working life.

It's all about learning one of the most important lessons in life:

Work and Reward.

It doesn't matter a whole lot what subjects you study in the Leaving.

Just study hard, get a proper degree, get well paid.

Chaotic_Forces

Snakeblood wrote: »

It's stupid because no one I know speaks the first language on a regular basis. It seems that what would make sense in that situation is dropping it as a first language because so few people speak it.

Telling me to leave is actually:1 rude, 2: stupid because it tells me you think I don't really belong here if i think Irish is a waste of time. You can keep your parenting and geographic tips for someone who is interested in them.

Hey well in that case... nobody I know speaks French or German or any language other than English on a regular basis, let's drop those languages too! Hell, nobody I know speaks in maths jargon all the time, let's drop maths!
See how your logic isn't making sense?

Just because something doesn't affect YOU doesn't give you the right to speak for everyone. You will either move or attempt to have the language removed from the school (and fail, more than likely) or else just settle with your kids being taught it.

Snakeblood

Chaotic_Forces wrote: »

Uh... Irish is a European language...

As is English, yet you cleverly separated them out in the post I was quoting. Possibly because you meant 'European' in the sense of the mainland of Europe. Trying to be a smartarse is good if you're smart.

fkt

Chaotic_Forces wrote: »

And why didn't you ask your parents to send you to a school up north? You knew that you had to take Irish so... why didn't you try to avoid the fiaso altogether?

Don't be silly

Buceph

Dionysus wrote: »

"Irishness", perhaps, if we redefine it as a regional English identity akin to the way regions like Kent or Northumbria are "Kentish" or "Northumbrian". These so-called traits of "Irishness" don't amount to a national identity, which in the vast majority of European countries has revolved around substantial things like language and legal systems since the late medieval period. To try to claim an Irish national identity but strip the nation of all its distinctive substance is, at best, pointless and, at worst, dishonest and tribal.



Well, having a distinctive language is certainly considered central to having a distinctive identity in most states in Europe. It's not my list. Distinctive aspects of a culture are invariably used as markers of identity everywhere. All identities depend upon such relatively fundamental distinctions.



It wasn't a snipe. Why you assume there's something wrong with being English is very strange given that you clearly identify more with English culture than Irish culture. There is, obviously, much merit in that culture as there is in other European cultures. This is, however, about people rejecting Irish culture and repackaging English culture as "Irishness". It strikes me as being profoundly dishonest and tribal. There's nothing of substance to defend, so why make a point of defending it by claiming it's part of "Irishness". What's wrong with accepting it's English and enjoying/playing/speaking it without feeling the need to dress it up in a green jersey? I'll never understand why the Irish people whose "Irishness" is so culturally English can't be honest about this Englishness. It's much more respectable. At the moment, the denial is like a passive-aggressive anglophobia.



'Adopting' British customs or replacing Irish customs with them? Think of your own views on Irish culture/language/sport and be honest.



Why? Is that not just tribal/backward (whatever other epithet you might apply to the parish-based culture of the GAA)?

You have a very narrow view of what it entails to be Irish and what Irish culture is. You do realise Ireland's cultural evolution didn't stop 100+ years ago. What you're talking about is a heritage not a culture. Heritage informs culture, but it doesn't determine it.

Chaotic_Forces

NTMK wrote: »

Whats the problem with it being optional? the students who want to do it can and those who dont dont have to

Because quite frankly if it's a choice, people won't take it. Kids already have enough without adding Irish on top of it. And by that I mean that you can bet your money that we'll have something else in place of Irish.

Snakeblood

Chaotic_Forces wrote: »

Hey well in that case... nobody I know speaks French or German or any language other than English on a regular basis, let's drop those languages too! Hell, nobody I know speaks in maths jargon all the time, let's drop maths!
See how your logic isn't making sense?

Just because something doesn't affect YOU doesn't give you the right to speak for everyone. You will either move or attempt to have the language removed from the school (and fail, more than likely) or else just settle with your kids being taught it.

I'm not speaking for everyone. You are. You're saying everyone should have to learn it. i'm saying it should be optional. Yet from this you get that I am telling everyone what to do.

Naikon

fkt wrote: »

I have my CAO form done for courses which require a pass in Irish. I will pass it absolutely no problem at all. It's not the difficulty of the subject that is my problem, it's that it's a waste of every students time every day

OK. Good luck so. If you don't find it difficult, just don't show up to the class. Problem solved? If they threaten to kick you out, the fear of litigation may halt their intentions. I am sure you could come to some "agreement". As for your classmates, **** them:D

Dionysus

Snakeblood wrote: »

It's more impressive to say you're fluent in English and 2 other european languages.

It really depends on whom you want to impress. And I'd be fairly sure most people who decide to become fluent in Irish are 1) not really thinking about "impressing" anybody, and 2) get quite a kick out of not impressing a certain type of backward narrow-minded sort.

Chaotic_Forces

fkt wrote: »

Don't be silly

It's what I would have done if I hated Irish that much.

Snakeblood wrote: »

I'm not speaking for everyone. You are. You're saying everyone should have to learn it. i'm saying it should be optional. Yet from this you get that I am telling everyone what to do.

That's nice. I'm saying that if we take away our language and make it "optional", we ought to do the same with anything to do with Ireland.
Why not just have the "option" to say "I'm from the UK" if you're from Ireland? It's just a faster way of denying anything to do with Ireland.

Cathaoirleach

ricero wrote: »

More like sucking on pussy the amount of hot ass it gets ya is unbeleivable the women love it.

Yes, women like having their gash sucked. Well done, you. What a revelation.

Some lovely Irish girls doing the TG4 weather these days. Have you seen them? I love every word that comes from their Irish gobs. So hot.

Naikon

Chaotic_Forces wrote: »

It's what I would have done if I hated Irish that much.



That's nice. I'm saying that if we take away our language and make it "optional", we ought to do the same with anything to do with Ireland.
Why not just have the "option" to say "I'm from the UK" if you're from Ireland? It's just a faster way of denying anything to do with Ireland.

By moving school, it's like an admission of failure. Just stop showing up to the class. If they give you any hassle, disassociate yourself with the school and sit the LC as an external candidate. No one is truely forcing you to sit in Irish class everyday.