Fine Gael policy to end compusory Irish till Leaving Cert

Chaotic_Forces

Naikon wrote: »

By moving school, it's like an admission of failure. Just stop showing up to the class. If they give you any hassle, disassociate yourself with the school and sit the LC as an external candidate. No one is truely forcing you to sit in Irish class everyday.

Eh... I meant before he started a school where Irish is mandatory...

And that's a great plan, sulk and leave because you signed up for something you didn't want to do.
I'd say most schools would have it as mandatory.

Pal

Probably vote for FG so.
About time they abolished Irish.
Wasted years in school learning rubbish that's no go to me or anybody else.
Fair enough if its your thing but where do they get off shoving it on us ?

heyjude

Deleted User wrote: »

lets say if fine gael form the next government, and enda is taoiseach, how long would im take before Irish is non-compulsory for leaving cert?
a year? 18 months? 2 years? 3 years?

It won't happen in the term of the next government, the vested interests will see to that.

Chaotic_Forces

Pal wrote: »

Probably vote for FG so.
About time they abolished Irish.
Wasted years in school learning rubbish that's no go to me or anybody else.
Fair enough if its your thing but where do they get off shoving it on us ?

Alright, how would you feel about learning it for the junior cert and after that it's a choice? Keep in mind the rubbish in the other subjects you have to learn till at least the junior cert.

NTMK

Chaotic_Forces wrote: »

Because quite frankly if it's a choice, people won't take it. Kids already have enough without adding Irish on top of it. And by that I mean that you can bet your money that we'll have something else in place of Irish.

The thing is if they don't like the language and write it off it doesn't matter if its compulsory or not they will drop to pass or foundation and focus on other subjects these students time would be better spent learning something they enjoy and will remember
I chose to do Biology and Chemistry at higher level even though i was goin to do Business two subjects that have a big workload and higher level maths even though it wasn't required but i did them because i enjoyed them difficulty or workload didn't come into play at all

Naikon

Chaotic_Forces wrote: »

Alright, how would you feel about learning it for the junior cert and after that it's a choice? Keep in mind the rubbish in the other subjects you have to learn till at least the junior cert.

It should not be mandatory at JC level either. Just like Religion. I swear, sitting and listening to that ****e really accelerated my switch to atheism. Come on now, a bunch of lads sitting around an area and looking at "burning bushes" among other tripe. It's shocking that some schools even teach this stuff. And no, being aware of another religion does not make you respect that belief system. Just because I am rational does not mean I should have to listen to fairytales. We won't be moving too far as a society until both these subjects are made optional in ALL schools.

Cathaoirleach

Pal wrote: »

Probably vote for FG so.
About time they abolished Irish.

Fair enough if its your thing but where do they get off shoving it on us ?

What about PE? The 'shove' that on you aswell. And History (what a bore). Hold on, don't they 'shove' all subjects on us?

Oh, sorry, you're just singling out Irish. My bad.

Chaotic_Forces

NTMK wrote: »

The thing is if they don't like the language and write it off it doesn't matter if its compulsory or not they will drop to pass or foundation and focus on other subjects these students time would be better spent learning something they enjoy and will remember
I chose to do Biology and Chemistry at higher level even though i was goin to do Business two subjects that have a big workload and higher level maths even though it wasn't required but i did them because i enjoyed them difficulty or workload didn't come into play at all

Yes but if you want it as optional from first year onwards, who in their right mind will take it? I don't care if you like Irish or not but adding on an extra language is basically impossible ontop of French or German or whatever it is. I mean how it's basically "Irish English", as in with French you learn French. With Irish then you're learning about poems and all sorts. Sure, if it was revamped as a language then yes, it would be a good idea to make it optional after 3rd year

Dionysus

Deleted User wrote: »

lets say if fine gael form the next government, and enda is taoiseach, how long would im take before Irish is non-compulsory for leaving cert?
a year? 18 months? 2 years? 3 years?

Considering Labour is opposed to Fine Gael's decision on compulsory Irish, it's not as if this pipedream of Fine Gael is going anywhere - unless they get a majority of seats in the next Dáil, which obviously isn't going to be anything near a reality.

In other words, Fine Gael is going nowhere with this. There will, I'd be sure, quite a radical change of the Irish syllabus probably along the lines mentioned by many people in these threads before, namely divide the syllabus into oral and literature with more academic students doing the latter as well as the former. That will be the most probable compromise.

Snakeblood

Chaotic_Forces wrote: »

Are you honestly telling me that schools and Ireland should cater to a handful of people? And believe it or not, you are still just a handful of people compared to the hundreds of thousands that want their kids to learn Irish.

I'd love to see you provide evidence of this.

Snakeblood

Chaotic_Forces wrote: »

It's what I would have done if I hated Irish that much.



That's nice. I'm saying that if we take away our language and make it "optional", we ought to do the same with anything to do with Ireland.
Why not just have the "option" to say "I'm from the UK" if you're from Ireland? It's just a faster way of denying anything to do with Ireland.

Who is denying anything to do with Ireland? You're not making any sense and now you're dragging the UK into it for no reason.

Chaotic_Forces

Naikon wrote: »

It should not be mandatory at JC level either. Just like Religion. I swear, sitting and listening to that ****e really accelerated my switch to atheism. Come on now, a bunch of lads sitting around an area and looking at "burning bushes" among other tripe. It's shocking that some schools even teach this stuff. And no, being aware of another religion does not make you respect other peoples belief systems. Just because I am rational does not mean I should have to listen to fairytales. We won't be moving too far as a society until both these subjects are made optional in ALL schools.

Each to their own. I would have liked to have learned it properly. It wasn't mandatory till the year after the JC.

If that's your thinking though, shouldn't all subjects be optional?

Chaotic_Forces

Snakeblood wrote: »

Who is denying anything to do with Ireland? You're not making any sense and now you're dragging the UK into it for no reason.

Point is that you're wanting to remove our language, in essence, get away from that aspect of Ireland (the language), so just take the shortcut and say you're from the UK. Or, that's what I'm understanding from your arguments.

Snakeblood

Chaotic_Forces wrote: »

Point is that you're wanting to remove our language, in essence, get away from that aspect of Ireland (the language), so just take the shortcut and say you're from the UK. Or, that's what I'm understanding from your arguments.

No. The point is you're wanting to force people to learn something because you want them to learn it, and I'm saying it should be optional because they're the ones who are spending time learning it, not you.

Naikon

Chaotic_Forces wrote: »

If that's your thinking though, shouldn't all subjects be optional?

No.

Chaotic_Forces

Snakeblood wrote: »

No. The point is you're wanting to force people to learn something because you want them to learn it, and I'm saying it should be optional because they're the ones who are spending time learning it, not you.

And you know what? If we want it to be optional, I want every damn subject that I was forced to f**king take be optional for my kids. I want my kids to go to school and not think "oh I hate X subject, I wish we didn't have to take it". Untill then, stop acting like it's just Irish you are forced to learn.

Dionysus

Buceph wrote: »

You have a very narrow view of what it entails to be Irish and what Irish culture is.

The same could be said of you, in fairness. We'll agree to disagree.

Cathaoirleach

Snakeblood wrote: »

I'd love to see you provide evidence of this.

I will provide you with evidence from Boards.ie herself. Bear with me whilst I get searchin'.

Chaotic_Forces

Naikon wrote: »

No.

So why just Irish?

Dionysus

Naikon wrote: »

No.

Why not?

Snakeblood

Chaotic_Forces wrote: »

And you know what? If we want it to be optional, I want every damn subject that I was forced to f**king take be optional for my kids. I want my kids to go to school and not think "oh I hate X subject, I wish we didn't have to take it". Untill then, stop acting like it's just Irish you are forced to learn.

Well why not go complain about that instead of whinging about Irish, if that's your real problem? Go fix what you're upset about instead of dragging Irish into it.

Or better yet, leave the country and stop complaining. It seems you thought it was good advice for me.

Chaotic_Forces

Snakeblood wrote: »

Well why not go complain about that instead of whinging about Irish, if that's your real problem? Go fix what you're upset about instead of dragging Irish into it.

So now only you're allowed moan about Irish? Not me? Or just not anyone who is against removing it?

Actually, my advice was for you to leave here so your kids don't have to learn it, if you're that serious about nto wanting them to learn it.

fkt

Chaotic_Forces wrote: »

It's what I would have done if I hated Irish that much.

I don't hate it. Anyone who hates a few words on a page needs to see a doctor.

I hate wasting forty minutes of my day on something that will never benefit me

Naikon

Dionysus wrote: »

Why not?

Because Maths and English among others like Science are pretty handy to have as mandatory. Irish and Religion...not so much.

Snakeblood

Chaotic_Forces wrote: »

So now only you're allowed moan about Irish? Not me? Or just not anyone who is against removing it?

Actually, my advice was for you to leave here so your kids don't have to learn it, if you're that serious about nto wanting them to learn it.

Read what you wrote. Your last post was moaning about all the subjects not being optional. My solution was your solution. Inane, isn't it?

NTMK

Chaotic_Forces wrote: »

Yes but if you want it as optional from first year onwards, who in their right mind will take it? I don't care if you like Irish or not but adding on an extra language is basically impossible ontop of French or German or whatever it is. I mean how it's basically "Irish English", as in with French you learn French. With Irish then you're learning about poems and all sorts. Sure, if it was revamped as a language then yes, it would be a good idea to make it optional after 3rd year

1) Im not for having it optional from first year, not unless learning a second language is made mandatory
2) the entire curriculum needs to be reform completely from Junior infants upwards. if the level of irish has improved at primary then i would be in favor of dropping it to optional when those junior certs that started the program enter secondary

Dionysus

Naikon wrote: »

Because Maths and English among others like Science are pretty handy to have as mandatory.

Not if you don't want to do careers which depend on the stuff you learn in the Maths and English syllabi, which is the reality for most LC students. It's merely force and compulsion on the vast majority of kids - who know how to calculate, read and write - and have no desire to be force-fed sonnets, trigonometry and the rest of that pointless stuff. If people need both of those subjects, they can choose them. They have, to use the thinking against compulsory Irish, no right to "force" children to learn Maths and English for the LC.


What's sauce for the goose...

Precious flower

As well as the problem in the way Irish is taught is also the fact that theres no incentive to speak the lanuage as there is no need when you can just speak english, even a person from the Gaeltacht can speak english :rolleyes: so that issue has to be addressed.

Wibbs

Abbreviated from your last post:

Wibbs wrote: »

Oh god. You see this is the problem many have with the shrill voices calling for a Gaelgoire nation. It is too often a Chucky/bogman with chip on their shoulders issue's voice. "Off too london with ye?" Jesus christ couldn't you at least be more inventive?

What gibberish are you writing Sir? Galway city is useful. It doesn't require millions in yearly gov grants and many 100's of 1000's of people chose and have chosen to live there for many many generations. Quite right too. Nice place. I'd live there myself. As for the bogmen concentration camps? Hmmm I could subscribe to that idea. Terrible sad day when the Pale came down*.

Wut? No seriously. Wut? Now we're into racism here. Eh I'm Irish. I know that likely troubles you and furrows your brow in the long winter evenings, but there you go.

Sorry. No Speako Dago. why can't you speak it better? you can't speak it very well. No doubt you will blame the educational system.

I suspect that's more your cultural insecurity projecting there.

Hmmm, not happy with that tone. Very much playing the man there and not the ball.You still haven't stated where you see the language going, and corrected me on whether you wish to see it die a death as an annoyance, instead of playing an integral part of Irish culture as some/many/few see it (delete as believed).

Snakeblood

Precious flower wrote: »

As well as the problem in the way Irish is taught is also the fact that theres no incentive to speak the lanuage as there is no need when you can just speak english, even a person from the Gaeltacht can speak english :rolleyes: so that issue has to be addressed.

That's just it. There needs to be a reason to speak Irish by the masses for it to gain a foothold. Otherwise it's just a curiosity.

oranje

Snakeblood wrote: »

That's just it. There needs to be a reason to speak Irish by the masses for it to gain a foothold. Otherwise it's just a curiosity.

You are right there. The reason French, Latin and English all gained footholds in Ireland at different times was because there was an impetus to use them in some function or other.
The way they approached Irish language revival was half-hearted. They never gave enough English speakers a reason to bring up their kids as Irish speakers, indeed even now few Gaelscoil graduates go on to bring up their kids through Irish which is the only way to ensure new Irish speakers.
Basically you need to discriminate against the language that you want to replace. So, instead of just mandating having LC Irish to get in the Civil Service you make Irish the language of the Civil Service. Instead of saying that primary teachers need a certain level of Irish you do teacher training through Irish for schooling through Irish.
To go through that pain you need to want Irish as the language of your country. Only a small minority of Irish people want this. Instead there is a tokenistic attitude towards the language which leaves it on life support.
Personally I think that the Irish attachment to English is near-sighted. Irish speakers end up picking up third and subsequent languages more easily. Ironically the Irish speakers often end up having a broad-based European outlook through contacts with other minority language groups and learning other languages. English speakers are often focused on Great Britain and the US to a lesser extent.
As much as many Irish people are very patriotic most people have more in common with British people than anybody else. That is not necessarily bad but why bother going through the trauma of partition and everything that has brought if the Irish state is just a clone of England.

TaraFoxglove

Well, one thing is certain from this thread - it's a contentious issue!

Cathaoirleach

Here are the Boards.ie polls I have rooted out from the Google.

In large, Irish people are supportive of the Irish language, but many wish it to be optional after the JC.

As I have stated before, I hated learning Irish in school, as the majority of you did, and I left school with níl aon focal agam.

Fine Gael are proposing the make Irish optional after the JC.

I would have agreed with many of you in making Irish optional after the JC. However, it is not the language that is a problem, it is the curriculum.

I propose a complete overhaul of the Irish curriculum and creating two new subjects. 'Irish Literature' and 'Irish'.

'Irish Literature': Peig, poems, essays, etc, would be optional after the JC.

'Irish' would focus on oral/aural ability with comhrá workshops, enabling Irish students to actually communicate with each other in Irish. This subject would be mandatory for the LC.

Here are the Boards.ie Polls:

Should the Irish language remain an important part of our society? Yes

Ban the Irish language? No

Should TG4 be shut down in the 2011 budget? No

English as the first language of Republic of Ireland? No

Would/Will you send your kids to a Gaelscoileanna? Yes

Gaeilge in your life and your child/children's life/lives? Yes

Will you keep up an interest in the Irish language after the LC? Yes

Should Irish Be mandatory at second level? No

What should we do with Irish in our schools? Make it optional

Should Irish Be mandatory at second level? No

Snakeblood

Cathaoirleach wrote: »

Here are the Boards.ie polls I have rooted out from the Google.

In large, Irish people are supportive of the Irish language, but many wish it to be optional after the JC.

As I have stated before, I hated learning Irish in school, as the majority of you did, and I left school with níl aon focal agam.

Fine Gael are proposing the make Irish optional after the JC.

I would have agreed with many of you in making Irish optional after the JC. However, it is not the language that is a problem, it is the curriculum.

I propose a complete overhaul of the Irish curriculum and creating two new subjects. 'Irish Literature' and 'Irish'.

'Irish Literature': Peig, poems, essays, etc, would be optional after the JC.

'Irish' would focus on oral/aural ability with comhrá workshops, enabling Irish students to actually communicate with each other in Irish. This subject would be mandatory for the LC.

Here are the Boards.ie Polls:

Should the Irish language remain an important part of our society? Yes

Ban the Irish language? No

Should TG4 be shut down in the 2011 budget? No

English as the first language of Republic of Ireland? No

Would/Will you send your kids to a Gaelscoileanna? Yes

Gaeilge in your life and your child/children's life/lives? Yes

Will you keep up an interest in the Irish language after the LC? Yes

Should Irish Be mandatory at second level? No

What should we do with Irish in our schools? Make it optional

Should Irish Be mandatory at second level? No

As far as I can tell the majority agree it should be optional for the leaving?
-That's really what I think most people want. One of the most telling indicators is that Enda Kenny is even tabling the notion. If he didn't think it was going to be agreed to by a majority, he'd have kept his mouth shut.

Also, cheers for searching stuff out.

TaraFoxglove

Cathaoirleach wrote: »

Here are the Boards.ie polls I have rooted out from the Google.

In large, Irish people are supportive of the Irish language, but many wish it to be optional after the JC.

As I have stated before, I hated learning Irish in school, as the majority of you did, and I left school with níl aon focal agam.

Fine Gael are proposing the make Irish optional after the JC.

I would have agreed with many of you in making Irish optional after the JC. However, it is not the language that is a problem, it is the curriculum.

I propose a complete overhaul of the Irish curriculum and creating two new subjects. 'Irish Literature' and 'Irish'.

'Irish Literature': Peig, poems, essays, etc, would be optional after the JC.

'Irish' would focus on oral/aural ability with comhrá workshops, enabling Irish students to actually communicate with each other in Irish. This subject would be mandatory for the LC.

Here are the Boards.ie Polls:

Should the Irish language remain an important part of our society? Yes

Ban the Irish language? No

Should TG4 be shut down in the 2011 budget? No

English as the first language of Republic of Ireland? No

Would/Will you send your kids to a Gaelscoileanna? Yes

Gaeilge in your life and your child/children's life/lives? Yes

Will you keep up an interest in the Irish language after the LC? Yes

Should Irish Be mandatory at second level? No

What should we do with Irish in our schools? Make it optional

Should Irish Be mandatory at second level? No

It seems a bit biased that those polls were carried out in the Irish Language forum. Hardly a cross-section.

EDIT: Sorry, my mistake, most seem to have been carry out in After Hours.

Snakeblood

TaraFoxglove wrote: »

It seems a bit biased that those polls were carried out in the Irish Language forum. Hardly a cross-section.

The important questions are 'should it be compulsory' and even there people say no.

Wibbs

Deleted User wrote: »

Abbreviated from your last post:

Hmmm, not happy with that tone. Very much playing the man there and not the ball.You still haven't stated where you see the language going, and corrected me on whether you wish to see it die a death as an annoyance, instead of playing an integral part of Irish culture as some/many/few see it (delete as believed).

I see it as on life support. A cultural ideal and money soak rather than a living language. A cultural football in need of constant reinflation. Its like ballet, when the kids are doing hip hop(I dunno, give me a break:D).

You say I'm playing the man. OK it wasn't quite my intention. What I was saying-and it's as good an example of the actual state of the language- you're a supporter of Irish, yes? Great, but you can't speak it, beyond schoolboy level. You admit this yourself, which is honest. How did you register your level of Irish on the last census(if you were around to fill it out)? Some fluency? I'm not saying you would, but many would have. And it's...well it's what you would step in if you followed a male of the cattle species around a field for long enough. I'd put good money that many of the loudest voices in this debate have pretty crap command and vocab of the language and would still claim some fluency. Its a bloody joke. At this stage it's a makey uppey language with almost english syntax in some quarters*

IMHO the salient part of my post was;

Mise wrote:

Great in theory and it was tried here to a large extent. When the civil service, the police, the judiciary, teaching, entry into national universities, compulsory in schooling, etc is and has been bound up in this state since it's formation and yet here we are.. Nope didnt work. Why? Again because for all our lip service it does seem we're not really that pushed.

And the gaelgoires, the "professional Irish speakers" know this. All too well. They know that if the crutches were taken away, the language they claim is spoken by 100's of 1000's of people, the language that the majority of want(according to them), would die on the vine and only be spoken by the small(but nonetheless valuable) group of fluent native speakers. You may even get more people wanting to speak it.

Now we have Cathaoirleach trotting out the polls. And yes he/she is correct the Irish people as they have for generations support Irish in the majority. So why the fcuk are we still having this debate? We're having this debate because it's lip service. If it wasn't you wouldnt need it to be compulsory, you wouldnt need the crutches(and there are many). It would be our second or even primary language and quite plainly it's not. Irish is more like the national art gallery. Put up a poll asking "should we keep the national art gallery?" and you can be pretty sure people would be all "oh yes! it's part of our heritage. Must keep it". Then ask them when was the last time they went. Ask them would they be prepared to pay for the privilege and watch them hmmm and haaw and look at the their feet and then vote with the same feet. Much the same can be said of Irish.

TL;DR? If Irish is so vital to our culture and ourselves and the majority agree, why does it need so much support?





*and a mate whose first language growing up was Irish as was his parents and people before him, confirmed that as quite a common thing among the nouveau Gaelgoires.

123balltv

Yes Yes I dont want my younger Brother learning something he will
never use again for the rest of his life.

Jazzy

id *almost* be tempted to vote fine gael if they stopped the ridiculous policy of forcing irish down the throats of people that dont want or care about it

TaraFoxglove

Wibbs wrote: »

*and a mate whose first language growing up was Irish as was his parents and people before him, confirmed that as quite a common thing among the nouveau Gaelgoires.

I suspected as much.

I would like to say though, I love TG4. But its greatness is not down to it being an Irish language channel.

Personally I see the language as the Israelis see Hebrew, or English folk see their expensive Royal Family & the whole changing of the guard business, how the New Zealanders see the Haka etc etc- A national trait that differentiates us from other nations.

I suppose my attitude to Irish has been influenced by my RDF service, specifically marching. Marching is the wonkiest way to get a group of people from one place to another on foot, it's a bunch of steps that are completely unnecessary. All you have to do is say to a group of soldiers "head over there" and they'll just go. It's quicker than "lig isteach!-> Aire!-> deas iompaigh!-> seasaigh ar ais! -> aire! -> Do reir cle go mall, marsheail!-> cle! deas! cle! deas!...-> stad!-> cle iompaigh! -> lig amach!". But once you're in the organisation, and you realise the history of it, the ethos it instills, you accept it and the reasons it exists.

Now I don't expect everyone to have a "gra" for the language (love) but I can't abide people talking it down because it's an inconvenience. By all means throw it away if it has no meaning in your life, but for many, while they can not speak it well and use it as a tool of communication it is a verbal flag, a sign that "No, we are not English, we are Irish." Please, don't belittle it.

People were killed before independence simply for speaking in that tongue. It is a part of who we are, or were. Even if you never want to hear it in Modern Ireland again, please respect it and those who speak it or wish to use it.

And to put this on track and totally clear, I don't oppose the reoval of Irish as cumpulsory, but believe something needs to replace that as making Gaeilge a piece of craic to learn!

Cathaoirleach

A quick breather, folks.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QrpW7t_kX74

Cathaoirleach

Deleted User wrote: »

my attitude to Irish has been influenced by my RDF service

Jaysus, ye must be ancient.

Deleted User wrote: »

"lig isteach!-> Aire!-> deas iompaigh!-> seasaigh ar ais! -> aire! -> Do reir cle go mall, marsheail!-> cle! deas! cle! deas!...-> stad!-> cle iompaigh! -> lig amach!".

I can dance to that!

ar aghaidh, agus ar ais,
ar aghaidh, is ar ais arís.
suas agus síos,
suas agus síos,
is ar ais arís.

:pac:

Gigiwagga

I'd suggest they stop supporting the irish language entirely, other than a simple option in both primary and secondary school, within ten years the irish language would be cool and thriving. It's how things work for us irish, do away with something and suddenly or entire collective existence depends on it.

I hated Irish in school, I had a fairly good handle on it, but hated the 'Fois-Gras' approach to its teaching, never worked never will.

Wibbs

Agreed, ban the bugger and watch it's popularity balloon.

Krusader

Gigiwagga wrote: »

I hated Irish in school, I had a fairly good handle on it, but hated the 'Fois-Gras' approach to its teaching, never worked never will.

Exactly, but the Irish way is to take the easy option (the coward's way), reform the teaching 1st give it a chance with a proper curriculum

Snakeblood

Crosáidí wrote: »

Exactly, but the Irish way is to take the easy option (the coward's way), reform the teaching 1st give it a chance with a proper curriculum

'The coward's way'? The cowardly thing to do is to believe the only way it will stay alive is if people have no choice in the matter.

Wibbs

Crosáidí wrote: »

Exactly, but the Irish way is to take the easy option (the coward's way), reform the teaching 1st give it a chance with a proper curriculum

I see what you're saying, but there are IMHO three ways of how these things go; Cowardice, or bravery and the most common of all? Meh, indolence, apathy. The latter while common in all cultures is more prevalent in this one, especially among our own. Start your Irish schools or colony in some far flung land with some micks around you and watch how quick they learn. Mad.

Chaotic_Forces

The problem is (at least how I understand it, I'm only 22) is that say... in the 1980s when the secondary school Irish was being taught, it was just kind of "there". And more importantly, a lot of the older lads I know either left school and got some sort of job/trade or did nothing with their life. I always thought of being in an all Irish school as some sort of "burden" since it was harder for me than the kid in the English school who didn't learn a subject through Irish + English and then was expected to know it 100% for the summer and christmas exams.

But... after basically hearing people that were twice my age saying how they wish they actually paid attention in Irish and would love to speak it, I started to make more of an effort (combined with a teacher who was... well pretty much amazingly good and had a real interest in Irish himself). I did pay more attention and I was happy with it.

But... if it was a choice of learning it willingly, I'd say no now. I honestly would. I don't see why we should have to learn Irish and French/Spanish/German/X also.

As for those wanting Irish out, no, just... no.
I think it should be mandatory from low babies (junior infants) to the junior cert. But not so much of the English type. I would be happy sticking with the irish how it was taught in primary. In seconday it's basically "read story, read poem, okay, good! Now pretend it's a work of flippin' Yates and write a bit about it!"
If it was taught how French or any other secondary language is, I'd be overjoyed (maybe throw in a bit more... advanced (not the flipping old-irish rubbish, unless you willingly want to learn) but I mean if you choose to take it all the way for the leaving cert, you should be able to live in a Gaelteacht for a year (maybe not have 100% slang Irish but I think it should be like a polish guy living here who can speak english but sometimes get's mixed up on words but they can easily take part in chats and all).

I just think if you refuse to teach kids the basics till the junior (and let's face it, the junior is not that important), then you essentially taking away what they could have learned.

ricero

It should be made optional for the leaving certain no doubht about it I ave no problem with the language being around ya ave to keep the hardline nationalists happy but it should be optional it will save the state money and give many people who struggle with the language throughtout their life pick up a new subject and a other intrest. Also it defintly needs a reform the way it's taught is discracefull all we did in class was argue with the teacher about how Irish sucks and watched DVDs we didn't even get homework. Also there's poems on the leaving certain poem written by a pedo that's just wrong IMO