Enda Kenny to make irish optional?

An gal gréine

Demonique wrote: »

They'll STILL be learning Irish, they're just making it optional for the Leaving Cert

How dare Enda Kenny want to give young people a choice!

If they were given a choice, over their parents' wishes, how many would attend school AT ALL ?

deise go deo

This is the responce I got from the adviser of Michael Creed TD on the Issue.

The Deputy understands that the obligatory status of the subject will only be removed after the entire subject is overhauled and verifiable results are to be seen. Then we will enter into consultation with all stakeholders on its status.

As it happens, this is the relevent bit of the FG manifesto.

We believe that reinventing the way we teach Irish will encourage more students to study the language and engage with it beyond the school system. We believe compulsion has not fostered growth or commitment to the language. We will overhaul the curriculum at second level and we will critically examine the effect of current training methods of teachers to teach. Irish as an optional subject for Leaving Certificate will only apply following consultations on both matters

Cork

Demonique wrote: »

How dare Enda Kenny want to give young people a choice!

FG seem to want to make the 1st language of this country optional.

Fair play to Eamon O Cuiv bringing in the 20 year statergy, Official Languages Act and more oral emphises for state exams.

FG need to let the above changes a chance to work.

SeanMadd

Avi Purple Triathlon wrote: »

I always believe choice is good so would support it being compulsory along with Maths and English at senior cycle.

Of course Third-level courses could still make certain subject compulsory for English i.e Maths for Engineering courses, Irish for Primary Teaching.

The teaching of Irish is terribly flawed. I was far poorer at Irish than any other subject. This despite being a A student in other subjects, getting well over 500 points in the Leaving, first class honours degree, distinctions in other courses etc. etc.

Why, If I was strong academically, was I so poor at just one particular subject? In fairness I got a B in Ordinary Level Irish, but Ordinary Level is a cakewalk in comparison to Higher Level.

I think the teaching of Irish is a far bigger issue that needs to be discussed than the whole compulsory issue. I felt I wasn't learning Irish, just getting it shoved down my throat. We were forced to learn pages of stuff off by heart to use as essays in the JC and LC. How pointless is that? If I had a good command of the written and spoken language I could have made these essays up on the fly, just like I did in the French LC exam.

That said I wouldn't mind re-learning Irish again. The problem is that I would also like to study so many other areas, a MBA perhaps, Spanish, brush up on my French etc.

If there was an equivalent of "Bienvenue en France" for Irish that would be brilliant, something friendly and accessible.

I agree. Learning 5 or 10 stories and poems off by heart does not achieve anything. Also primary school irish should be more emphasized, as I previously said, those books we read back then were useless and the only thing I could say by the time I got to first year was "I maith liom ____".

Maybe if there were more Gaeltachts in the east it would improve the language?(And a lower price wouldn't hurt either, ha!) I'm not sure, but I think they're mostly in the west.

Aimsigh

SeanMadd wrote: »

I agree. Learning 5 or 10 stories and poems off by heart does not achieve anything. Also primary school irish should be more emphasized, as I previously said, those books we read back then were useless and the only thing I could say by the time I got to first year was "I maith liom ____".

Maybe if there were more Gaeltachts in the east it would improve the language?(And a lower price wouldn't hurt either, ha!) I'm not sure, but I think they're mostly in the west.

Gaelscoileanna b'fhéidir? Ta a lán gaelscoileanna i mBÁC.

Learscáil

Ach tá ga ann le nios mó.

SeanMadd

Aimsigh wrote: »

Gaelscoileanna b'fhéidir? Ta a lán gaelscoileanna i mBÁC.

Learscáil

Ach tá ga ann le nios mó.

Ah, ta brón orm!

Aimsigh

SeanMadd wrote: »

Ah, ta brón orm!

Ná bí buartha.

MathsManiac

deise go deo wrote: »

We all know that in every school Irish, English and Maths are required subjects.

The argument of those that want to remove Irish as a compulsory Subject is that Compulsion will invariably lead to poor performance and resentment,

As English and Maths are Compulsory in all Schools then the same should follow, should it not?

As I have pointed out in many threads on this topic, if you check the Department of Education regulations, you will see that Irish is the only compulsory subject in senior cycle.

Perhaps one should ask the question: why is it that more students choose to do maths and English for LC, (which are not compulsory) than choose to do Irish (which is).

My point is that the debate about whether or not there is a DES rule that says you have to do Irish is a pointless debate. In any case, the existing rule is so vague that you could satisfy it by having one class a week where you sit watching clips of your favourite soap trí Ghaeilge. It is not departmental rules that really control what people study - it is the third level sector and their entry requirements, along with the expectations of employers.

In my view, therefore, ALL of the attention should be on improving the quality of what happens in the classroom from age 4 to age 16 (or 18 if you like), and the question of whether or not there is a largely irrelevant departmental rule is a distraction.

colmos

To be honest, I have to say I'm disgusted to hear that some people still want to force this language down people's throats.

You all argue about this culture crap. I have studied Irish against my will for 14 years, doing the LC this year. I have never used this language outside of school... NEVER. I think it's the biggest waste of time in the educational system. If I didn't have to study this, I could have better spent those years advancing my knowledge of Maths or Sciences. This useless subject has just dragged me back. I despise it. Yet I have to study it for the LC. If I didn't have to do this, I could have studied Physics, Accounting, Geography, Economics or Construction etc.

Do you people have any idea how much more those subjects could have been worth to me? I could have actually applied these subjects in college or later life.

Why must you feel in all of your narrow minded glory that you must force me and others like me to learn this junk? Have you any practical use of the language to suggest? Because cultural excuses are NOT practical.

All I want is that people would actually have the option to choose whether they want to do Irish or not.

WHAT'S WRONG WITH GIVING PEOPLE CHOICE?

It's too late for any changes to happen for me but I do want to help younger people like me who have no interest in this waste of time of a language.

REMEMBER: NO ONE IS TRYING TO KILL YOUR PRECIOUS LANGUAGE, THEY JUST WANT A CHOICE WHETHER TO STUDY IT OR NOT... :mad:

Insect Overlord

colmos wrote: »

Yet I have to study it for the LC. If I didn't have to do this, I could have studied Physics, Accounting, Geography, Economics or Construction etc.

Do you people have any idea how much more those subjects could have been worth to me? I could have actually applied these subjects in college or later life.

I don't want to sound like a total prick (because I actually understand your point of view) but I have to break it to you that your view of subject-practicality is totally skewed.

Doing Geography/Economics/Physics/etc for the Leaving Cert might give you an edge in your first year of college, but nothing more. By the end of first year you'll nearly always find that the material you covered for the LC was irrelevant to your course, or that your fellow students have caught up with you.

Teachers will exaggerate the importance/relevance/practicality of their subject for as long as they can. And they're right to do that, don't get me wrong! Young students need all the motivation they can get. Alas, this motivation is just as often a cause of unnecessary stress as it is the cause of good results.

The Leaving Cert will be the biggest thing in your life for a year or two. Getting your results should be a big celebration. And then you'll move on and forget all about it. It is not the be all and end all. Sorry for spoiling that surprise for you, but I reckon you needed to be told.

As for a practical use for Irish? Well, there's having a chat with friends, singing new songs, reading some amazing poems and stories, developing a broader philosophical understanding of the nature of society, growing in awareness of how this country came to be how it is today, telling your friends secrets when you don't want non-Irish speakers to understand you, expanding your general linguistic and cognitive abilities...

deise go deo

Insect Overlord wrote: »

As for a practical use for Irish? Well, there's having a chat with friends, singing new songs, reading some amazing poems and stories, developing a broader philosophical understanding of the nature of society, growing in awareness of how this country came to be how it is today, telling your friends secrets when you don't want non-Irish speakers to understand you, expanding your general linguistic and cognitive abilities...

I dont understand why people always forget this point.


There are also Jobs that you can only get if you have Irish. Having Irish is an economic advantage to people.

With the growth of the Language sector this advantage will grow too.

Insect Overlord

I like to think of Irish as being enticing enough without having to use it for financial gain.

conor.hogan.2

The Irony of Kenny stuttering in irish, in conemara, on tg4 talking about the 100 year anniversary of 1916 and him planning on destroying irish by making it optional past junior cert.

Remember that when you vote - I will not be giving them a preference nor FF.

Krusader

conor.hogan.2 wrote: »

The Irony of Kenny stuttering in irish, in conemara, on tg4 talking about the 100 year anniversary of 1916 and him planning on destroying irish by making it optional past junior cert.

Remember that when you vote - I will not be giving them a preference nor FF.

I ndáiríre, Bíonn sé ag stadaireacht i mBéarla chomh maith nuair atá na ceamaraí air, Breathnaíonn sé míchompordach an t-am ar fad. ní maith leis ag déanamh diospóireachta ar an teilefís ar chor ar bith

Fuinseog

conor.hogan.2 wrote: »

For a language that has been dieing for over 400 years and has been "dead" for around 40 odd years it is remarkably fresh.

On topic - I am not surprised, this is Fine Gael.

the corpse is still breathing

Fuinseog

Crosáidí wrote: »

I ndáiríre, Bíonn sé ag stadaireacht i mBéarla chomh maith nuair atá na ceamaraí air, Breathnaíonn sé míchompordach an t-am ar fad. ní maith leis ag déanamh diospóireachta ar an teilefís ar chor ar bith

Thug me a leitheid faoi deara freisin ach beidh se in thaoiseach. Ma ta comhlaitheoiri maith aige beidh se togha ach faoi lathair ni dheanann se imprisean maith

Fuinseog

conor.hogan.2 wrote: »

The Irony of Kenny stuttering in irish, in conemara, on tg4 talking about the 100 year anniversary of 1916 and him planning on destroying irish by making it optional past junior cert.

Remember that when you vote - I will not be giving them a preference nor FF.

it pains me to see the language being dumbed down at second level. it is not an exaggeration to say the at LC honours is a JC honours level ten years ago. As a teacher I am expected by the department to teach the subject through Irish, but by the school through English. the former would be better but the parents have the say. it seems to me a lot of unqualified persons have the say in how the subject should be taught.

Conor_1978

As a product of the failed curriculum in Irish taught in Irish schools, I'm a firm believer that the entire system of teaching Irish needs to be changed, from Pre-school onwards.

But I do not believe the way to do this is to reduce the number of people studying Irish. Only 1 country in Europe has this optional second language method that Kenny is proposing and it's failed majorly, there's a reason no one else is using it.

Kenny needs to put his money where his mouth is, he claims he'll listen to the Irish people, well, every poll taken shows that the vast majority want Irish to remain compulsory, doesn't look like he's listening.

For decades teachers in Ireland have been saying that the method of teaching is the problem, not the language. But no ones listened to them.

Lets face it your 15 years old, and you have choice of doing an extra subject for your leaving, Irish, of course you are not going to do it. You're 15 all you think about at that age is getting less homework and having more free classes.

the Petition at http://www.petitiononline.com/gaeilge/petition.html
is well worth signing for anyone who has any interest in seeing our national culture survive.

A huge change is needed in the Whole Irish area.. but scrapping it is not the way forward. This article in the Irish Times written by Anna Ní Ghallachair (the director of the language centre at NUI Maynooth) puts it very clear, this policy of Kenny's has been tried and it's failed anywhere it's been tried. http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/opinion/2011/0217/1224290023212.html

To Quote:
"In 2004, when introducing optional second language learning after the age of 14, Labour ministers in the UK predicted the same outcome. The result in fact has been a decline of over one-third in numbers taking languages at GCSE in the past seven years, and a only a minority of students achieving A* to C grades in the subject."

My greatest regret in life (So far) is that I am unable to fluently speak my own national tongue, I do not want my children to have that same regret.

http://www.facebook.com/pages/Save-the-Irish-Language-from-Enda/168584226523259?sk=wall

.

Krusader

Conor_1978 wrote: »

My greatest regret in life (So far) is that I am unable to fluently speak my own national tongue, I do not want my children to have that same regret.

By a book and start learning, it's hard at the start but gets easier and easier as you start to break the code. This is how i started learning and then classes. It's not too late, Good luck

Dan_Solo

http://www.galwayindependent.com/local-news/local-news/fg-denies-policy-poses-threat-to-gaeltacht/
What a cartload.

However, the party’s Connemara candidate Cllr Seán Kyne has stressed that there will be “no change” in the compulsory nature of the subject until a full consultation has been carried out with affected stakeholders, including Irish language groups, mná na tithe, teachers’ groups and Gaeltacht residents.

If the only good reasons that exist for keeping Irish compulsory involve giving cheques to Irish speakers, then the language would be better off dead. Like all aspects of culture, what we do defines it, not what we would like it to be.
"Stakeholders"? What planet are these handout addicts on?

Salty

colmos wrote: »

To be honest, I have to say I'm disgusted to hear that some people still want to force this language down people's throats.

You all argue about this culture crap. I have studied Irish against my will for 14 years, doing the LC this year. I have never used this language outside of school... NEVER. I think it's the biggest waste of time in the educational system. If I didn't have to study this, I could have better spent those years advancing my knowledge of Maths or Sciences. This useless subject has just dragged me back. I despise it. Yet I have to study it for the LC. If I didn't have to do this, I could have studied Physics, Accounting, Geography, Economics or Construction etc.

Do you people have any idea how much more those subjects could have been worth to me? I could have actually applied these subjects in college or later life.

Why must you feel in all of your narrow minded glory that you must force me and others like me to learn this junk? Have you any practical use of the language to suggest? Because cultural excuses are NOT practical.

All I want is that people would actually have the option to choose whether they want to do Irish or not.

WHAT'S WRONG WITH GIVING PEOPLE CHOICE?

It's too late for any changes to happen for me but I do want to help younger people like me who have no interest in this waste of time of a language.

REMEMBER: NO ONE IS TRYING TO KILL YOUR PRECIOUS LANGUAGE, THEY JUST WANT A CHOICE WHETHER TO STUDY IT OR NOT... :mad:

The only thing wrong with the language is the way it is being taught. Overhaul the curriculum and make it truly focused on the spoken language, and it is of indescribable worth.

This is not just a matter of culture, but a matter of identity. We have fought for centuries trying to retain our identity as being Irish, and an essential part of that stems from our language. It is a direct link to our ancient heritage, something which is still living, even after centuries of torment, it is still alive.

Obviously, you are perfectly fluent in English, as we all are, and how did you learn that? It was spoken to you by your parents, and when you were in school. If you were taught Irish the same way, you would be just as fluent in it.

Please don't hate the language, hate the system.

Monty Burnz

An gal gréine wrote: »

One more stat is that 93% of the country want to revive the Irish language...E.S.R.I.

But what percentage arse themselves to use Irish in their everyday life? Tha's probably a more telling stat.

*disclosure: I'd be delighted to see Irish back in use.

Dan_Solo

Monty Burnz wrote: »

But what percentage arse themselves to use Irish in their everyday life? Tha's probably a more telling stat.

More like 93% of the country want the rest of the country to learn Irish. Like I said, "culture" is what people do, not what people would like everybody did.

Monty Burnz

deise go deo wrote: »

I also heard one of John Deasy's (FG TD in Waterford) canvasser complaining about Enda's policy on RnaG during the week, saying that there was no need of it and that they were loosing votes.

Typical Irish political bull. Let's not change ANYTHING for good or bad, because it's going to annoy someone, and maybe lose us some votes.

No wonder we are so backwards in this country. Someone comes up with a progressive policy to replace a failed one (and who thinks that compulsory LC Irish, and emphasis on written Irish & literature has succeeded?) and vested interests and those fearful of change kick up a fuss.

Apologies that I can't make this post in Irish - I was the one of the best Irish students in my year when I entered secondary school (with a scholarship) but by the time I did my leaving I was scraping a D in the honours paper. What we have been doing does not work.

Dan_Solo

_meehan_ wrote: »

This is not just a matter of culture, but a matter of identity. We have fought for centuries trying to retain our identity as being Irish, and an essential part of that stems from our language. It is a direct link to our ancient heritage, something which is still living, even after centuries of torment, it is still alive.

Nonsense.
Are you saying people are less "Irish" (and we don't want to even touch the genetics of "Irish") if they can't or don't speak Irish?
Sorry mate, I don't need you telling me what hoops I need to jump through to know my identity.
"Torment"?:rolleyes:Are you talking about Irish poetry class?

Dan_Solo

deise go deo wrote: »

I dont understand why people always forget this point.


There are also Jobs that you can only get if you have Irish. Having Irish is an economic advantage to people.

With the growth of the Language sector this advantage will grow too.

Of course the irony that those jobs themselves are pointless if Irish isn't considered compulsory is completely lost... Those jobs are all public sector and an unproductive waste of money to the Irish state.

deise go deo

Dan_Solo wrote: »

Of course the irony that those jobs themselves are pointless if Irish isn't considered compulsory is completely lost... Those jobs are all public sector and an unproductive waste of money to the Irish state.

Thats simply not true:rolleyes:

Dan_Solo

Go on then, tell us which Irish requiring jobs are neither public sector nor indirectly dependent on public sector money.

Monty Burnz

Nobody is arguing that the current system has worked as far as I can see. So why the objection to trying a new approach? Bizarre tbh.

deise go deo

Dan_Solo wrote: »

Go on then, tell us which Irish requiring jobs are neither public sector nor indirectly dependent on public sector money.

Have you ever gone into a pub or a shop in the Gaelthacht? They use Irish there, Not paid by the state to do so, but paid by their boss, who gets his money from his paying Irish speaking Customers.

And of course there are several large companies like Google, Facebook, Samsung, Metor etc that provide services as Gaeilge.

deise go deo

Monty Burnz wrote: »

Nobody is arguing that the current system has worked as far as I can see. So why the objection to trying a new approach? Bizarre tbh.

Well, objecting to making Irish optional now is quite logical when all the evidence point to it not working.;)

FeistyOne

Listen a lot of students learn Irish with a lot of contempt for the language purely because it is forced down their throats. It doesn't help students and it certainly doesn't help the language. Why make students who do not like learning the language and know it will be of no use or benefit learning keep it on as far as leaving cert?

Another thing I feel would happen if it was optional for the leaving cert is the level of Irish would increase if it was being learned because it was wanted to be learned. The contempt for learning the language would not be there so I believe there would be more students doing higher.

deise go deo

Look, there is no evidence that making Irish optional now will do anything but cause harm to the future of the language, I wish you could prove me wrong, but you simply can't.

If all that was needed was to make Irish optional then that would be great, but come on, seriously, we all know how deeply flawed the curriculum is, making it optional wont change that.

Dan_Solo

deise go deo wrote: »

Have you ever gone into a pub or a shop in the Gaelthacht? They use Irish there, Not paid by the state to do so, but paid by their boss, who gets his money from his paying Irish speaking Customers.

And of course there are several large companies like Google, Facebook, Samsung, Metor etc that provide services as Gaeilge.

Sorry to point this out to you, but none of that makes even a cursory attempt at a case for keepig Irish compulsory. None of those jobs are "dependent" on the Irish language at all.
So, we'll try again: can you name any jobs in which Irish language competence is a *requirement* that is not closely dependent on state money? I can name plenty that are if you would like me to.

Dan_Solo

deise go deo wrote: »

Look, there is no evidence that making Irish optional now will do anything but cause harm to the future of the language, I wish you could prove me wrong, but you simply can't.

If all that was needed was to make Irish optional then that would be great, but come on, seriously, we all know how deeply flawed the curriculum is, making it optional wont change that.

And? The point is that if nobody wants to speak Irish (though they all appear to want somebody else to!) then where's the impetus to teach it universally in schools? The only "jobs" where it is required are a net drain on the state.
If nobody wants to keep some aspect of their culture alive then it is no longer part of that culture. Call it democracy.

Monty Burnz

deise go deo wrote: »

Well, objecting to making Irish optional now is quite logical when all the evidence point to it not working.;)

What evidence? This is like one of those cases where some clowns are saying to stick with Fianna Failure 'because the other lot are as bad'.

Fact: Current system has not worked.
Fact: We don't know if changing system will work.
Fact: But we can be sure that sticking with failed system will not work.

Where is all this evidence you claim that sticking with proven failure is better than trying a new approach?

deise go deo

Monty Burnz wrote: »

What evidence? This is like one of those cases where some clowns are saying to stick with Fianna Failure 'because the other lot are as bad'.

What are you Bringing FF into it for Them and they'r bolixology have nothing to do with FG policy.

Fact: Current system has not worked.
Fact: We don't know if changing system will work.
Fact: But we can be sure that sticking with failed system will not work.

-Please show me where I said it had,
-We can be fairly sure that just making Irish optional will not work
-I never suggested we stay with the current system.

Where is all this evidence you claim that sticking with proven failure is better than trying a new approach?

Please show me where I said this. I did not say we should stay with the current system, I said that all the evidence suggested that making Irish optional now would do nothing but cause harm to the future of the language.

Do you think making Irish optional is the only possible way the current system can be changed?:rolleyes:

deise go deo

Dan_Solo wrote: »

Sorry to point this out to you, but none of that makes even a cursory attempt at a case for keepig Irish compulsory.

Dont move the goal post's.

This is what I was answering. As you well know.

Go on then, tell us which Irish requiring jobs are neither public sector nor indirectly dependent on public sector money.

I wasent trying to make a case for Irish being compulsory, I was answering your question.:rolleyes:

None of those jobs are "dependent" on the Irish language at all.

Getting those jobs is Dependant on having Irish.

So, we'll try again: can you name any jobs in which Irish language competence is a *requirement* that is not closely dependent on state money? I can name plenty that are if you would like me to.

Yes, The jobs I just mentioned, To get them you need Irish, Irish is required to get those jobs.

SeanMadd

Instead of making Irish optional, why doesn't Enda Kenny offer to change the whole damn system? Since the current one has "clearly" failed, it's obvious that the problem is the way Irish is taught, especially in primary school. Teachers should have spoken to us as Gaeilge everyday(not for the whole day, but for irish class) so that we would have learned Irish like we learned English, being spoken to in the language.

Krusader

SeanMadd wrote: »

Instead of making Irish optional, why doesn't Enda Kenny offer to change the whole damn system? Since the current one has "clearly" failed, it's obvious that the problem is the way Irish is taught, especially in primary school. Teachers should have spoken to us as Gaeilge everyday(not for the whole day, but for irish class) so that we would have learned Irish like we learned English, being spoken to in the language.

This is true, it is always the sound bites that they used to say to us as kids that stuck in our heads, "Seas suas, Lámha suas, Suigh síos etc."

MathsManiac

SeanMadd wrote: »

Teachers should have spoken to us as Gaeilge everyday(not for the whole day, but for irish class) so that we would have learned Irish like we learned English, being spoken to in the language.

Speaking Irish during Irish class would certainly be a good start, but, as I understand it, there would be a substantially greater gain if Irish were being used as the medium of instruction for another subject. For example, suppose that it was compulsory for all students to study at least one OTHER subject entirely through Irish, throughout primary school and up to Junior Cert.

This would have the potential to significantly improve people's communicative Irish. There would, of course, be significant resource implications for the system.

Monty Burnz

SeanMadd wrote: »

Instead of making Irish optional, why doesn't Enda Kenny offer to change the whole damn system? Since the current one has "clearly" failed, it's obvious that the problem is the way Irish is taught, especially in primary school. Teachers should have spoken to us as Gaeilge everyday(not for the whole day, but for irish class) so that we would have learned Irish like we learned English, being spoken to in the language.

I guess you haven't looked at the proposals so? :rolleyes:

Salty

Dan_Solo wrote: »

Nonsense.
Are you saying people are less "Irish" (and we don't want to even touch the genetics of "Irish") if they can't or don't speak Irish?
Sorry mate, I don't need you telling me what hoops I need to jump through to know my identity.
"Torment"?:rolleyes:Are you talking about Irish poetry class?

No I wasn't implying that, I don't mean our identity as individuals, but as a complete culture.

There are no "hoops" to jump through, a little support for the language wouldn't kill you though.

I'm a leaving cert student, so I still sit through ranganna filíochta every day, I know first hand that the curriculum is crap, but it hasn't damaged my love of the language.

Would you have the same attitude to any other part of our culture? Music? Dance? How about we just do away with them, stop encouraging young people to take them up. The language is just as significant as those.

Dan_Solo

deise go deo wrote: »

Yes, The jobs I just mentioned, To get them you need Irish, Irish is required to get those jobs.

Oh dear. How many jobs did you actaully list there? A few localisation gigs? Google might be a huge company, but their employing 2 or 3 Irish speakers to give an Irish translation service doesn't really justify 50,000 leaving cert students a year being forced to learn Irish, at a cost of tens of millions, does it?
Besides, those jobs only exist to service the artificial requirement imposed by the government due to enforced Irish usage.
If Irish is so great and popular, why does it need such constant expensive support?

Salty

Dan_Solo wrote: »

If Irish is so great and popular, why does it need such constant expensive support?

Because of cynics like you...:cool:

An gal gréine

With the English language being such a powerful worldwide force ready to, unwittingly, drown any competing language in it's wake, the Gaeltacht stands in a delicate position and needs fostering. To remove compulsory Irish from the L.C. will have such knock-on effects as to eventually finish-off the Gaeltacht.
Nobody disagrees with the Curriculum being overhauled- in fact other subjects are in need of overhaul too from the memory tests that we are all subjected to, to get our exams.
I think it's missing the point to be anxious as to how "useful" the Irish language is. It's a huge part of our living heritage that if it is allowed to slip away by the demise of the Gaeltacht, the WELL, then there's no going back.

subedei

Dan_Solo wrote: »

Oh dear. How many jobs did you actaully list there? A few localisation gigs? Google might be a huge company, but their employing 2 or 3 Irish speakers to give an Irish translation service doesn't really justify 50,000 leaving cert students a year being forced to learn Irish, at a cost of tens of millions, does it?

Well for example, there are over 12 universities in the USA that study irish, one in Notre dam has an entire Irish department, there are few universities in Britain that do too, granted most of these are old irish but a knowledge of modern Irish would help massively. Also early Irish literature, and Irish medieval literature (which are in Irish) is studied and has been studied extensively for atleast the last hundred years in Germany, France, and Scandinivia for instance.

As for compulsory leaving cert subjects as others have said in this thread most people dont and wont use English, Maths and another European Language once they leave school. How many people actually have to know anything to do with English that they study in their leaving cert once they leave school?

Besides, those jobs only exist to service the artificial requirement imposed by the government due to enforced Irish usage.
If Irish is so great and popular, why does it need such constant expensive support?

Well to be honest there is alot of things that relay on government funding, in fact most of the arts do, so according to your logic we should get rid of things like fine art, theatre, music and a host of other things that dont make alot of money directly. So we can just cancel culture and focus solely on business then. RTE and Irish films also get government funding too so why dont we cancel all that and just watch American and european cinema and channels instead. Irish language is part of the Irish culture and even how we speak English is affected by it, if u want to read anything pre-19th century from Ireland having no Irish means we cannot read it. Sure we wont make alot of money from it but then why does something have to make money in order to be important?

Jim Stark

It's not right saying Fine Gael are trying to end the Irish language, that's just scare mongering by Martin, and FFer's.

This point of the policy is to encourage it, by changing the way it's taught, and by not forcing people.

The fact is that the current approach to teaching Irish in schools DOESN'T WORK. And if something doesn't work, you make changes, and try a different approach. It's not going to improve if you just keep going about it the same way, which is what will happen with FF, and Labour.

Like most people, I spent more than 12 years in primary, and secondary school learning Irish, and I can only string a few basic sentences together, and I think that's schocking. And that's true for the majority of people, I know some people are fluent leaving school, and that's great but I don't think it's because of how it was taught in the schools. I welcome any effort to change this, and it's one of the reasons I'm voting FG.

It's basic psychology; force someone to do something, and they will reject it, and resent having to do it. Present them a choice, and you will get a more positive response.
Enda Kenny said he will also make the oral count for 50%, which will give more importance to the spoken aspect, which is what language is all about. I believe him to be genuine in his efforts to encourage the language, and don't think he is trying to kill it by any means.

With this in place, less people will no doubtedly be studying Irish at leaving cert level, but I think it will result in more people having a higher level of spoken Irish coming out of school, which is what we want.

Dan_Solo

_meehan_ wrote: »

Because of cynics like you...:cool:

Oh I see, if you don't want to waste millions on pointless projects that nobody's really interested in then you're a "cynic"...

subedei

Dan_Solo wrote: »

Oh I see, if you don't want to waste millions on pointless projects that nobody's really interested in then you're a "cynic"...

And where are you getting that from? You care to share your source?