Enda Kenny to make irish optional?

Krusader

Dan_Solo wrote: »

Well that's one way to admit that you can't argue for Irish to be compulsory in schools I guess.
1. Appeal to the rest of the board (because you have been roundly defeated when you address someone)
2. Say he has no argument (but don't explain at all why)
3. Say he thinks X, Y and Z (when he has never posted a single thing like that and you won't back it up with any quotes)

and finally, the best one...

4. Call him a troll (because maybe the mods will take pity on you).

All so lost-internet-argument-101, isn't it?

Maith thú, you won, here's something for you
http://www.jonburgerman.com/images/uploads/BP11badge.jpg

deirdremf

Dan_Solo wrote: »

More guff. If you can show where I said I "hate" Irish then please do.
Of course you won't.
You could perhaps try to quote me deliberately out of context, like Meehan did? That "worked" for him?

I don't need to show where you use the word "hate" - most of your posts are just a diatribe full of hate; that fact that you avoid the word doesn't remove the hate.

The point entirely eludes you yet again.
A tiny percentage of these children will speak Irish when they leave school. It is a complete waste of their time learning it as later in life it will be useless to them plus they will have not the slightest interest in it.
As I said, if Irish was a real election issue, Sinn Fein would be in power.

The point doesn't at all elude me, as I know what I am talking about. I have been involved in language issues here and abroad for many years. And that on the practical and the theoretical levels.
Gaelscoileanna started to take off in the late 60s & early seventies. The children of those who attended the early Gaelscoileanna are now sending their children preferentially to Gaelscoileanna (and yes, I am aware there are exceptions). Some of them speak Irish at home on a full-time basis, some on a part-time basis. Irish is a normal part of life for these second-generation gaelscoil kids.
In another generation's time, this will have spread to maybe 10%, maybe 15% of kids around the country; while maybe a total of 25-30% of kids overall will be attending Gaelscoileanna. This is the trend, this is the way things are going in this country. A change of government may slow the process down or speed it up by 5 of 10 years one way or the other, but the trend is obvious.
Like it or not.

kdowling

Crosáidí wrote: »

Most people want reform 1st then see how it goes from there, if students learn how to 'speak' it they'll use it

I agree reform is certainly needed, my example of the irish lads who could string a sentence together demonstrated that, but having said that the teaching of irish should be reformed for those who wish to learn it.

FOrcing people to learn irish is just crazy. I don't think it will kill the language to have it optional, most people who speak irish nowadays were taught from irish being spoken in the home and this will continue for those who still wish to speak it.

Salty

Dan_Solo wrote: »

More guff. If you can show where I said I "hate" Irish then please do.
Of course you won't.
You could perhaps try to quote me deliberately out of context, like Meehan did? That "worked" for him?

I am, in fact, female. And other people have pointed out that you have no argument, and that you are, in face, bigoted.

Dan_Solo wrote: »

The point entirely eludes you yet again.
A tiny percentage of these children will speak Irish when they leave school. It is a complete waste of their time learning it as later in life it will be useless to them plus they will have not the slightest interest in it.
As I said, if Irish was a real election issue, Sinn Fein would be in power.

Do you have first evidence of this? My boyfriend when to a Gaelscoil, and then a Gaelcholáiste, and is perfectly fluent. He speaks Irish to all his friends whom he went to school with, and a huge amount of them took Irish as part of their college courses, such as Commerce and Irish, or Law and Irish etc.

Krusader

kdowling wrote: »

I agree reform is certainly needed, my example of the irish lads who could string a sentence together demonstrated that, but having said that the teaching of irish should be reformed for those who wish to learn it.

FOrcing people to learn irish is just crazy. I don't think it will kill the language to have it optional, most people who speak irish nowadays were taught from irish being spoken in the home and this will continue for those who still wish to speak it.

If it is made optional before it is reformed, it will suffer, the whole points race for college needs to go aswell

Dan_Solo

_meehan_ wrote: »

Great example of where you completely manipulated my words.

Nope. You said people were less Irish if they couldn't speak Irish. Look, here.

_meehan_ wrote: »

This is not just a matter of culture, but a matter of identity. We have fought for centuries trying to retain our identity as being Irish, and an essential part of that stems from our language.

You *are* saying somebody is less Irish if they cannot speak Irish.
No misquote.
No twisting.
No misinterpretation.

_meehan_ wrote: »

Someone else implying that you were indeed changing things to suit yourself.

Yes, I proved him wrong too.

_meehan_ wrote: »

The number of jobs this person listed which Irish is necessary for is irrelevant, you only asked for specific jobs. They gave you the answer, and you decided since you couldn't really contest against the cold, hard facts, you would turn it on its head, and say "oh that's not enough examples to merit its worth."

You're absolutely right there. The number of private sector jobs he could come up with was utterly pathetic, and was a great help in proving that Irish is worthless as an aid in getting a job.

_meehan_ wrote: »

Sweeping generalisations regarding whether people want or don't want to speak Irish is ridiculous. You cannot speak on behalf of all those people and say they simply don't want to use the language. I always hear people saying that they would love to be able to speak it. ALWAYS - no exageration.

Unfortunately, the facts as provided say that people can speak Irish but the do not speak Irish.
This is pretty poor proof that they love Irish TBH.

_meehan_ wrote: »

Those people are simply paid to take care of the students who go there during the summer, they are not actually paid to speak the language. That's like saying we're paid to speak English; it's ludicrous. The language is truly alive in these parts of the country.

If Irish wasn't compulsory then how many would go to the Gaeltacht for the summer? Please don't make me laugh and say they all would.
And don't just take my word for it.

http://www.galwayindependent.com/local-news/local-news/fg-denies-policy-poses-threat-to-gaeltacht/
However, the party’s Connemara candidate Cllr Seán Kyne has stressed that there will be “no change” in the compulsory nature of the subject until a full consultation has been carried out with affected stakeholders, including Irish language groups, mná na tithe, teachers’ groups and Gaeltacht residents.

The local coucillor says removing compulsort Irish will affect summer visiting students.

_meehan_ wrote: »

Again, NOT TRUE.

So if I pay 100 people to speak Klingon, it is now a living, breathing language?
Oh please.

_meehan_ wrote: »

Anyone can go to school, sit in a class, and choose not to learn what is being taught to them. This applies to all subjects, not just Irish.

But they can't choose to pass their leaving certs because they ignored the pointless Irish class.
But they can't choose to go to university because they ignored the pointless Irish class.
Some choice you're giving people there.

kdowling

the issue here should not be how many people speak irish.
saying, oh i spoke irish to my friend last week or my boyfriend speaks irish to his school friends, is irrelevant. great, good for you. But what has that got to do with making people speak irish who
a) don't want to learn it and
b) have no intention of ever speaking it?
You can still have your gaelscoileanna and speak irish to your friends when you meet them and let the people who have no intention of speaking irish when they meet their friends learn something more productive with their time.

Dan_Solo

Insect Overlord wrote: »

I didn't want to have to post this, but your ranting has left me with very little choice:

I don't care if you post that. Honestly.
Just more proof you won't argue the issue because you can't.
(it's about 100 years old BTW)

Krusader

Dan_Solo wrote: »

But they can't choose to pass their leaving certs because they ignored the pointless Irish class.
But they can't choose to go to university because they ignored the pointless Irish class.
Some choice you're giving people there.

I failed Irish and i still went to college

Dan_Solo

deirdremf wrote: »

I don't need to show where you use the word "hate" - most of your posts are just a diatribe full of hate; that fact that you avoid the word doesn't remove the hate.

I don't need to show you where you said that the sky is orange and the moon is made of cheese. It's obvious from your posts isn't it, so I don't even have to pretend to be able to back up my claim?:rolleyes:

Dan_Solo

_meehan_ wrote: »

I am, in fact, female. And other people have pointed out that you have no argument, and that you are, in face, bigoted.

Who are you, Joan Burton? I couldn't care less whether you're male or female. Another irrelevance.

_meehan_ wrote: »

Do you have first evidence of this? My boyfriend when to a Gaelscoil, and then a Gaelcholáiste, and is perfectly fluent. He speaks Irish to all his friends whom he went to school with, and a huge amount of them took Irish as part of their college courses, such as Commerce and Irish, or Law and Irish etc.

Get a dictionary.
Look up "anecdote".
If it say "equals data" then get back to me with this heartwarming personal story.
I've already posted the "evidence" *twice*. I'm not particularly surprised you missed it, truth be told.
A tiny percentage of those who can speak Irish do so with any regularity.

Salty

kdowling wrote: »

the issue here should not be how many people speak irish.
saying, oh i spoke irish to my friend last week or my boyfriend speaks irish to his school friends, is irrelevant. great, good for you. But what has that got to do with making people speak irish who
a) don't want to learn it and
b) have no intention of ever speaking it?
You can still have your gaelscoileanna and speak irish to your friends when you meet them and let the people who have no intention of speaking irish when they meet their friends learn something more productive with their time.

What I said was relevant to the point I was making, which was not about the number of people speaking Irish. What I was saying was in relation to people who speak Irish after they have left their Gaelscoil, nothing else.

Everyone agrees that reform of the educational sysem is needed to inspire enthusiasm in people when it comes to speaking it amongst themselves.

Dan_Solo

Crosáidí wrote: »

I failed Irish and i still went to college

Well excuse me if I ignore your evasive post.
Did you pass your leaving cert and go to an Irish university without an exemption from Irish?
Otherwise your line is pointless. Failing Irish does curtail your options for no intelligible reason.

Dan_Solo

_meehan_ wrote: »

What I said was relevant to the point I was making, which was not about the number of people speaking Irish. What I was saying was in relation to people who speak Irish after they have left their Gaelscoil, nothing else.

I've been asked to provide evidence of my claims.
Can you do likewise?

niallo76

i think it would be a shame if people didn't want to learn their own language,irrespective if they are going to use it or not-if you learnt french or Spanish in school how often do you use this language?
I think Irish people have a big hang up about the language because of the way it was taught in school-it was forced upon you and if you fell behind that's tough-in my experience the teachers that taught me just didn't care enough-it was just learn a poem by heart,do your exams,try and scrape through the oral exam etc.,
a lot of people i know seem to simply HATE the Irish language,and would pour scorn on the idea of keeping it alive-(using the same arguments-sure when do you use it,it;s a dead language,you will never use it again etc)same can be said about most subjects you do in your exams in school(vectors,algebra,line geometry,ordnance survey,how to dissect a frog for chrissakes)

Jesus it's the only thing we have got that is ours anymore-what are we going to say to people from every other country in Europe if the discussion comes up about language-'ah,sure we couldn't be bothered learning our own'

i just think it is a sad day when our national language is being bandied about so flippantly as a promise to the voters of fine Gael that it will not be made compulsory after Junior Cert level-

sure we have loads of stuff that makes us unique to the rest of the world after all,lets lose the language also

Salty

Dan_Solo wrote: »

Who are you, Joan Burton? I couldn't care less whether you're male or female. Another irrelevance.

Get a dictionary.
Look up "anecdote".
If it say "equals data" then get back to me with this heartwarming personal story.
I've already posted the "evidence" *twice*. I'm not particularly surprised you missed it, truth be told.

1.Just pointing out the fact that I'm a girl, because well, I am, and I wasn't bringing it into the argument. It was just an innocent observation.
2.Just a relevant example, not a "heartwarming" anecdote.
3."I'm not particularly surprised you missed it" - completely unneccesary personal swipe at me and my intelligence.

Salty

Dan_Solo wrote: »

I've been asked to provide evidence of my claims.
Can you do likewise?

What evidence are you looking for?

Krusader

Dan_Solo wrote: »

Well excuse me if I ignore your evasive post.
Did you pass your leaving cert and go to an Irish university without an exemption from Irish?
Otherwise your line is pointless. Failing Irish does curtail your options for no intelligible reason.

Can you name the universities where you need Irish for a place, i can name 2 do you know anymore.

And that's not really the languages fault now is it

Dan_Solo

_meehan_ wrote: »

1.Just pointing out the fact that I'm a girl, because well, I am, and I wasn't bringing it into the argument. It was just an innocent observation.
2.Just a relevant example, not a "heartwarming" anecdote.
3."I'm not particularly surprised you missed it" - completely unneccesary personal swipe at me and my intelligence.

1. If I told you I was male, would that be relevant? No.
2. Example = anecdote ≠ data. Still applies.
3. And yet you still refuse to acknowledge the data I presented and moan about a "personal swipe" instead.

Dan_Solo

_meehan_ wrote: »

What evidence are you looking for?

_meehan_ wrote: »

What I said was relevant to the point I was making, which was not about the number of people speaking Irish. What I was saying was in relation to people who speak Irish after they have left their Gaelscoil, nothing else.

Do you have any data on how many Gaelscoil attendees go on to become habitual Irish speakers?

Krusader

Dan_Solo wrote: »

Do you have any data on how many Gaelscoil attendees go on to become habitual Irish speakers?

I think its 2 or 3

Dan_Solo

Crosáidí wrote: »

Can you name the universities where you need Irish for a place, i can name 2 do you know anymore.

http://www.nui.ie/college/entry-requirements.asp
Subjects required for matriculation
For entry to all degrees, English, Irish, and four other subjects in the Leaving Certificate (GCE/GCSE or other acceptable qualification) are required.

Crosáidí wrote: »

And that's not really the languages fault now is it

And straight back to strawman mode.
I never said it was "the language's fault".
You know the drill by now... I ask you to show me where I said that... you pretend it never happened...

Dan_Solo

Crosáidí wrote: »

I think its 2 or 3

Um...
2 or 3 percent?
2 or 3 people per year?
2 or 3 people in recorded history?

Salty

Dan_Solo wrote: »

1. If I told you I was male, would that be relevant? No.
2. Example = anecdote ≠ data. Still applies.
3. And yet you still refuse to acknowledge the data I presented and moan about a "personal swipe" instead.

1. It was just a simple correction. I'm not holding it against you. And I said it had nothing to do with the argument.
2.Living proof that Irish is spoken even after school has ended.
3.I will go through your data later when I don't feel like breaking things with frustration.

I honestly want to know do you think all other aspects of our culture are irrelevant too?
Music - not everyone has an aptitude for it, is it therefore useless?
Dance - same as music.

Irish language, music and dance are important components in this culture whether you like it or not.

Krusader

Dan_Solo wrote: »

http://www.nui.ie/college/entry-requirements.asp
Subjects required for matriculation
For entry to all degrees, English, Irish, and four other subjects in the Leaving Certificate (GCE/GCSE or other acceptable qualification) are required.

And straight back to strawman mode.
I never said it was "the language's fault".
You know the drill by now... I ask you to show me where I said that... you pretend it never happened...

So off the top of my head NUI Maynooth and Galway are the only universities that require Irish, the 2 i had suspected, anymore?

Salty

Dan_Solo wrote: »

Do you have any data on how many Gaelscoil attendees go on to become habitual Irish speakers?

You are obsessed with data. We're not all scientists. Leave the specifics slide a little.

Dan_Solo

_meehan_ wrote: »

I honestly want to know do you think all other aspects of our culture are irrelevant too?
Music - not everyone has an aptitude for it, is it therefore useless?
Dance - same as music.

Irish language, music and dance are important components in this culture whether you like it or not.

Last time I checked, nobody was forced to play a bodhrán or dance a jig to get into university or pass their leaving cert.
Music and dance are OPTIONAL. You are AGAIN assuming I have something against Irish while AGAIN failing completely to back up that claim.
I have a problem with COMPULSORY Irish.

Dan_Solo

Crosáidí wrote: »

So off the top of my head NUI Maynooth and Galway are the only universities that require Irish, the 2 i had suspected, anymore?

Language requirements for matriculation: exemptions
Irish

Generally speaking, anybody applying to an NUI institution who was born and had all their education in the Republic of Ireland must present Irish (achieving at least Grade D at Ordinary Level) for Matriculation purposes.

Krusader

Dan_Solo wrote: »

Last time I checked, nobody was forced to play a bodhrán or dance a jig to get into university or pass their leaving cert.
Music and dance are OPTIONAL. You are AGAIN assuming I have something against Irish while AGAIN failing completely to back up that claim.
I have a problem with COMPULSORY Irish.

Were you crap at irish and failed to get a place in a NUI?

Dan_Solo

_meehan_ wrote: »

You are obsessed with data. We're not all scientists. Leave the specifics slide a little.

Did you really just say that?
Oh fine then, let's put aside such piffles as "data" and "specifics" and see how well you do in this argument...;)

Dan_Solo

Crosáidí wrote: »

Were you crap at irish and failed to get a place in a NUI?

Which again would be irrelevant to this argument. It would be an anecdote and not evidence of anything.

Salty

Crosáidí wrote: »

Were you crap at irish and failed to get a place in a NUI?

Made my night

Krusader

Dan_Solo wrote: »

Which again would be irrelevant to this argument. It would be an anecdote and not evidence of anything.

Just trying to understand where you're coming from

Dan_Solo

_meehan_ wrote: »

Made my night

This will make your night even more...
I was exempt and passed Irish anyway.

Krusader

Dan_Solo wrote: »

This will make your night even more...
I was exempt and passed Irish anyway.

Here have another 1
http://www.csrplus.co.uk/blog/wp-content/uploads/2008/12/blue_peter_badge.jpg

Dan_Solo

Crosáidí wrote: »

Here have another 1
http://www.csrplus.co.uk/blog/wp-content/uploads/2008/12/blue_peter_badge.jpg

Sorry, you're only really making a fool of yourself by asking a question and then attempting sarcasm when the answer is the exact opposite of what you hoped and expected.:D

Dan_Solo

Crosáidí wrote: »

Just trying to understand where you're coming from

You have your answer then.
I was exempt and passed Irish anyway.
Does this do much for your theory that I hate Irish and would therefore like it to stop being compulsory?:D

Krusader

Dan_Solo wrote: »

Sorry, you're only really making a fool of yourself by asking a question and then attempting sarcasm when the answer is the exact opposite of what you hoped and expected.:D

Not really, i couldn't give a monkey's what you think or did, i'm enjoying winding you up to be honest

Dan_Solo

Crosáidí wrote: »

Not really, i couldn't give a monkey's what you think or did, i'm enjoying winding you up to be honest

Oh right, being walloped back into your box at every available opportunity floats your boat?
Thanks for conceding that you've lost by the way. That's what you're doing you know.
Yeah, I feel really wound up when I squash some kid to the point he can only come back with ad hominems. Oooh, really wound up.:rolleyes:

Krusader

Crosáidí wrote: »

Maith thú, you won, here's something for you
http://www.jonburgerman.com/images/uploads/BP11badge.jpg

Dan_Solo wrote: »

Oh right, being walloped back into your box at every available opportunity floats your boat?
Thanks for conceding that you've lost by the way. That's what you're doing you know.
Yeah, I feel really wound up when I squash some kid to the point he can only come back with ad hominems. Oooh, really wound up.:rolleyes:

That was conceded 2 pages ago, well done, you got me, youre a
master debater

Dan_Solo

Crosáidí wrote: »

That was conceded 2 pages ago, well done, you got me, youre a
master debater

Haha, you'd hardly need to be Cicero or Lincoln to do that, would you.
I might come back to this thread when an adult next posts here.

Krusader

Dan_Solo wrote: »

Haha, you'd hardly need to be Cicero or Lincoln to do that, would you.
I might come back to this thread when an adult next posts here.

Don't let the door hit you on the way out, Slán agat!!

subedei

Dan_Solo wrote: »

Haha, you'd hardly need to be Cicero or Lincoln to do that, would you.
I might come back to this thread when an adult next posts here.

I should say I am not going to answer all the questions and comments above as this is taking me too long around already and I have alot of stuff to do, but I will try throw my hat in once more and give a part reply.

Succesive surveys have shown that a majority of the public supports policies to maintain Irish in the Gaeltacht,, to provide Irish Language services on the national television channels, to use Irish on public notices etc, to provide state services in Irish, to employ public officials who could speak Irish, and to support the voluntary Irish language organizations..... Thus the Irish public is willing to accept a considerable commitment of state resources to ensuring the maintenance of the irish language and even to support a considerable imposition of legal requirements on certain groups within the society to know or use Irish

Pádraig Ó Riagáin, Irish language policy 1922-2007

A telephone poll of voters conducted between 15 and 24th of November 2005 by TNS MRBI on behalf of Fine Gael....62% of those polled expressed the belief that Irish should become a subject of choice after the Junior Certificate. 34% believed that it should remain compulsory....... The most surprising result contained in the poll was the very high percentage of people in the 18-34 gage group who stated that they thought Irish should remain compulsory at second level. (89% of the ones that voted for Irish to be compulsory)

While most commentors would readily acknowledge that the Gaeltacht areas continue to be under pressure from all manner of threats, very few would deny the phenomenal increase in the numbers of people living outside thse areas who are fluent in irish. This is in no small part due to the role being played in the promotion of the language by classes and by Gaelscoileanna. Ironically, too, the school system, which has been blamed for so many of the ills besetting the Irish language, is still the main reason why significant numbers of our population have a knowledge of the languages, in degrees from basic familiarity to complete fluency

As for an election issue, irish already was an election issue. Fine gael Lost an election because they wanted to make Irish compulsory, I cant remember which one it was but it was between Lemass and Fine Gael, Lemass's first term, and the entire election was about the Irish language even tho there was more "serious" issues like Ireland joining EU. Fianna Fail won because they supported Irish language being compulsory. This was stated in the 'Campaign daily' show on RTE, you can watch it online on the RTE player if you dont believe me, it was from last week.

Im not going to argue about the merits of culture, if someone doesnt like culture then there is no point in arguing about it, and culture that just makes money isnt really culture, it is just a form of business. Anyway that is beyond the scope of this thread.

As for why people want to learn Irish it is not simply because it is spoken or not, one will never understand fully this land of ours if one doesnt speak Irish, you wont be able to understand what a name means when you see it written, where it came from, why its there. The whole land around you opens up if you understand these things. You wont be able to read anything your ancestors wrote or said by not being able to understand Irish, it is important to understand what shaped their world and so yours, the particular world view they had. Irish matters because it is what they changed through their natural and creative uses of the language over thousands of years, it was their vehicle to understand what was around them and inside them. Not only is Irish important to Ireland but it is important to european history in general, Irish and other surviving Celtic languages are the only survives of a pre-Roman western European languages, our language is directly related to the Languages of the Gauls and the Iberians. By keeping it alive we keep another European tradition that we very much own and are part of, alive.

As for speaking I am sure there are some, I have heard some and I have used Irish sometimes to speak in the real world, I was useless in Irish in school and yes for a long time it colored my opinion of irish but with time and age my view has changed. But yes Irish is used by some to speak too, I wear a Fáinne and would be glad to speak to anyone in Irish at any time, even if its poorly. All one can do is take care of onesself and not have to worry about whether others are doing it or not.

But you are right in one way, yes the utter failure of Irish people was that adults never found a use for Irish, and they kept expecting their children to do it instead, passing the buck so to speak, this is exactly the same with government who have only ever half heartedly tried to do anything, Gaelscoils came in the 1970's from ground roots movements, not from government expenditure and as such are often not as well funded as catholic schools.

But its not too late for us to change it, and rediscover what it means to have a life throw Irish. The new Gaeltacht in Belfast is a sure sign of this. And I am looking forward to this debate ending because to be honest I think we are way too transfixed on Irish in school rather than it in the community and wider world. We should be taking notes from the welsh and the fact that education is just one of the ways they seek to continue their language. I see this happening, especially in Galway, even in Cork and dublin, to get something similar to Mentrau Iaith of Whales. Where the focus is on all aspects of community not just schooling. Perhaps making it voluntary will stop this fixation with schools and make irish look to other venues to make this language relevant to a wider audience.

As for compulsory Irish the original topic, this has as others have stated in previous posts, been tried in england with secondary languages and has not worked, and also compulsory welsh in wales has been tried and works, their language is in a much stronger position than ours now, even though they arent an independant country like us. Though probably because 20% of their schooling is done in Welsh medium schools while less than 5% in Ireland.

If making Irish not compulsory will stop blaming the entire language for how its taught then perhaps it is time to end compulsory Irish but I for one cannot do anything that would see it damaged or diminished in any way so I will not be voting for Fine Gael because of it (also because they are a mirror image of Fianna Fail). I only seek to improve things not destroy them, dar liomsa.

PS I think I expended way too much time on this, so doubt I will be back to it! slán!

deise go deo

Dan_Solo wrote: »

Yes, I proved him wrong too.

In what reality was this?

You claimed that all jobs requiring Irish were paid by the state. I showed you that this was untrue, You then tried to shift the goal posts claiming that this wasn't a reason for Irish to be compulsory.

I am perfectly happy to get the quotes if you want.:rolleyes:

Dan_Solo

Crosáidí wrote: »

Don't let the door hit you on the way out, Slán agat!!

Another simple post you failed to comprehend.
I said I'd come back when an adult posted, not that I was leaving for good.
0/10 for you as usual.

Dan_Solo

deise go deo wrote: »

In what reality was this?

You claimed that all jobs requiring Irish were paid by the state. I showed you that this was untrue, You then tried to shift the goal posts claiming that this wasn't a reason for Irish to be compulsory.

I am perfectly happy to get the quotes if you want.:rolleyes:

I'm perfectly happy likewise for you to list "all" of those jobs which aren't state dependent that have an absolute requirement for Irish.
If the best you can come up with is "you said all Irish requiring jobs are state dependent, but look! Look! I found 3 on earth that arent!!" then you're really arguing on my side of this whether you realise it or not.

Insect Overlord

Dan_Solo wrote: »

Another simple post you failed to comprehend.
I said I'd come back when an adult posted, not that I was leaving for good.
0/10 for you as usual.

Dan, I tried to point it out to you last night and you took it the wrong way. I'll try one more time now.

Getting condescending with everyone in this thread is doing you no favours. Your attitude is really letting you down, and it's drawing the worst out of others as well. Your patronising "I'm waiting to talk to adults" holds no weight whatsoever, especially when your last reply to me was tantamount to "He started it".

Take a step back, take a deep breath, then come back and show a bit of civility to the rest of the forum. Respect works both ways.

Dan_Solo

Thanks, your post is worth a million of the kiddies' ones.

First, I do not have the "Pádraig Ó Riagáin, Irish language policy 1922-2007" to hand. Is it available online?
I do however have several issues with the presentation of the data he has collected.

Succesive surveys have shown that a majority of the public supports policies to maintain Irish in the Gaeltacht,, to provide Irish Language services on the national television channels, to use Irish on public notices etc, to provide state services in Irish, to employ public officials who could speak Irish, and to support the voluntary Irish language organizations..... Thus the Irish public is willing to accept a considerable commitment of state resources to ensuring the maintenance of the irish language and even to support a considerable imposition of legal requirements on certain groups within the society to know or use Irish

"the Irish public is willing to accept a considerable commitment of state resources" does not follow directly from their desire to have Irish involved in the public service. It may be required, but it cannot be assumed.
If you have these surveys, or references to them, I would be interested in seeing the trends and methodology of these.

A telephone poll of voters conducted between 15 and 24th of November 2005 by TNS MRBI on behalf of Fine Gael....62% of those polled expressed the belief that Irish should become a subject of choice after the Junior Certificate. 34% believed that it should remain compulsory....... The most surprising result contained in the poll was the very high percentage of people in the 18-34 gage group who stated that they thought Irish should remain compulsory at second level. (89% of the ones that voted for Irish to be compulsory)

So a 2 to 1 majority do not want it compulsory fot the leaving cert? I can't see how that's much of a fillip for compulsory Irish advocates? The last figure is a clear positive bias twist... 89% of those who voted for Irish to be compulsory voted for it to be compulsory at second level? How is that a "surprise"?

While most commentors would readily acknowledge that the Gaeltacht areas continue to be under pressure from all manner of threats, very few would deny the phenomenal increase in the numbers of people living outside thse areas who are fluent in irish. This is in no small part due to the role being played in the promotion of the language by classes and by Gaelscoileanna. Ironically, too, the school system, which has been blamed for so many of the ills besetting the Irish language, is still the main reason why significant numbers of our population have a knowledge of the languages, in degrees from basic familiarity to complete fluency

There is ZERO data presented here with regard to take up numbers of Irish post-Gaelscoil. Not one single bit.
And I don't see the "irony" of people being forced to learn Irish then being able to speak Irish? Is that an "irony"?

subedei wrote: »

As for an election issue, irish already was an election issue...

I will try and watch that. I'd have to say Lemass was neither yesterday nor the day before though.

subedei wrote: »

Im not going to argue about the merits of culture...

I don't agree that it is entirely outside this discussion. It *is* a matter of cultural imposition, even if that culture is already "ours".

subedei wrote: »

As for why people want to learn Irish it is not simply because it is spoken or not, one will never understand fully this land of ours if one doesnt speak Irish...

I agree totally. But you could say the same about doing a PhD in ancient Celtic studies. Would that make you more "Irish" than a mere Gaelgoir? No, it wouldn't. It might be entertaining personally to have these skills, but they are not a requirement, in my eyes, to be considered thoroughly and completely "Irish".

subedei wrote: »

As for speaking I am sure there are some...

I have no issue with people speaking Irish, that is their and your choice. It is up to me whether I feel left out or not.

subedei wrote: »

But you are right in one way, yes the utter failure of Irish people was that adults never found a use for Irish, and they kept expecting their children to do it instead, passing the buck so to speak, this is exactly the same with government who have only ever half heartedly tried to do anything, Gaelscoils came in the 1970's from ground roots movements, not from government expenditure and as such are often not as well funded as catholic schools.

Don't get me started on state funding for religious schools!
Again, 100% agree. I'm sick of oldies saying they wish the had learned Irish when they were young, but then never bothering to learn it. It's a pipe dream. Then they transfer this "love of Irish" to their kids.

subedei wrote: »

But its not too late for us to change it, and rediscover what it means to have a life throw Irish...

The won't quote brigade here won't believe me, but I would be perfectly happy if Ireland was fully bilingual. I don't think it's wise to lose the Lingua Franca of English. I do not think however it is worth the effort of transition to this bilingual state. Our very culture makes kicking against the rules a badge of honour, so if you force Irish on us, we will rebel against it. It's human nature.

subedei wrote: »

As for compulsory Irish the original topic, this has as others have stated in previous posts...

The Welsh are an interesting case, where despite what would appear to be greater imposed cultural change from England, they have come back much more stringly than Irish. Someone from the Udaras should take a trip over and see what they're up to. If you can get even Premiership footballers to speak Welsh, you must be onto something!

subedei wrote: »

If making Irish not compulsory will stop blaming the entire language for how its taught then perhaps it is time to end compulsory Irish but I for one cannot do anything that would see it damaged or diminished in any way so I will not be voting for Fine Gael because of it (also because they are a mirror image of Fianna Fail). I only seek to improve things not destroy them, dar liomsa.

With you on the hair's breath between FF and FG. I still don't see what's "in it" for Irish being compulsory. How does that make it a "living" language outside the traditionally Irish areas? As I asked earlier, if the government paid 100 people to speak Klingon, would it then become a "living" language? As I have already said (and misquote/no quote kids, try and read the whole sentence this time, right?) if Irish can *only* be kept alive through forced teaching, minimum "requirements" and government cheques, it is to all intents and purposes already dead.

subedei wrote: »

PS I think I expended way too much time on this, so doubt I will be back to it! slán!

Thanks. Good points well made.

Dan_Solo

Insect Overlord wrote: »

Take a step back, take a deep breath, then come back and show a bit of civility to the rest of the forum. Respect works both ways.

Respect works both ways?

Crosáidí wrote: »

Not really, i couldn't give a monkey's what you think or did, i'm enjoying winding you up to be honest

(and "thanks" from meehan)
I notice that when people who you agree with are trolling, and admitting it, there isn't a peep out of you, so don't pretend you've a problem with me because of my "tone".

Krusader

Tá tú ar ais *ag cuimilt lámha le chéile*