Independents & FF

daheff

Heard an interesting theory this morning


there are quite a few ex-FFers and ex-FF Cuman members running as Independents in this election.

theory goes that any of these folks that get elected will rejoin FF within the life of the next Dail


what do other people think?

It could be a very sneaky way for FF to get TDs in the backdoor -trying to hoodwink the public again

Zubeneschamali

I don't think this is a co-ordinated plan to get FFers elected, it's just that FF is going down, and the rats are jumping ship.

But since these newly independent candidates still believe in Fianna Fáil's core values of cronyism, corruption, and power at all costs, they will of course slide back into the cess-pool of FF over time.

the groutch

once a FFer, always a FFer
hopefully the electorate will see through these shenanigans, and realise that a vote for them is a vote for FF

Tragedy

the groutch wrote: »

once a FFer, always a FFer
hopefully the electorate will see through these shenanigans, and realise that a vote for them is a vote for FF

That makes sense, no politician has ever switched parties, become independent, or joined a party after being independent.

No, of course not, FF is special in that when someone joins or goes in to power with them they magically form a life long contract with them that stops them ever leaving, changing allegiance or beliefs.

I see that the PD's, Michael McDowell, Michael Lowry, the Healy-Rae clan, Noel Grealish etc etc etc never existed.

I see it now, thank you the groutch for your deeply nuanced and thoroughly researched summation of the history of irish politics, independent TDs and changing of allegiances.

@daheff: It's generally TDs doing a JHR, the party decides it doesn't want to run them in a constituency for whatever reason, so the candidate leaves the party and runs as an Indepedent. If you look at the "FF" Independents running in this election, I would suggest you will find most(if not all) weren't chosen as candidates at selection conventions in an attempt to try get at least one TD elected in a constituency.

daheff

Tragedy wrote: »

@daheff: It's generally TDs doing a JHR, the party decides it doesn't want to run them in a constituency for whatever reason, so the candidate leaves the party and runs as an Indepedent. If you look at the "FF" Independents running in this election, I would suggest you will find most(if not all) weren't chosen as candidates at selection conventions in an attempt to try get at least one TD elected in a constituency.

hey i never said otherwise. I said that i've heard rumours that with the large numbers of ex-FF cuman members on the cards as independents that most will return to FF -how they end up being independent was never the issue

Tragedy

daheff wrote: »

hey i never said otherwise. I said that i've heard rumours that with the large numbers of ex-FF cuman members on the cards as independents that most will return to FF -how they end up being independent was never the issue

How they end up Independent IS the issue, if you're saying they went Independent only in an attempt not to be tarred with the FF brush and to later rejoin the party.

Which is what you said.

theory goes that any of these folks that get elected will rejoin FF within the life of the next Dail

As I said, in most cases it seems to be FF members unhappy with not being selected by FF to run in their constituency and trying to go it alone. Which is cynical, but it isn't the cynical ploy you're accusing them of.

mikemac

Tragedy wrote: »

@daheff: It's generally TDs doing a JHR, the party decides it doesn't want to run them in a constituency for whatever reason, so the candidate leaves the party and runs as an Indepedent. If you look at the "FF" Independents running in this election, I would suggest you will find most(if not all) weren't chosen as candidates at selection conventions in an attempt to try get at least one TD elected in a constituency.

+1

Selection committees are ruthless and a lot of councillors never get selected.
And they'd feel bitter at getting passed over, especially if you were a long serving councillor and then the son or daughter of the local TD gets selected.
Pretty normal to get bitter, you'd do the same in your job if got passed over.

So they sometimes quit the party and run as Independents.

Happens all the time, happened in the last election and will happen in the next one

Newaglish

Tragedy wrote: »

I see that the PD's, Michael McDowell, Michael Lowry, the Healy-Rae clan, Noel Grealish etc etc etc never existed.[\QUOTE]

I'm sorry but didn't every single one of the above vote with Fianna Fail in every election that Fianna Fail were in government in the last 13 years?

Tragedy

Newaglish wrote: »

Tragedy wrote: »

I see that the PD's, Michael McDowell, Michael Lowry, the Healy-Rae clan, Noel Grealish etc etc etc never existed.

I'm sorry but didn't every single one of the above vote with Fianna Fail in every election that Fianna Fail were in government in the last 13 years?

It's funny you picked the last 13 years, as if you had have said.. I dunno, 14 years? It would have shown PD's in opposition to FF and Lowry as FG.

Funny you picked 13 years alright. Not suspect at all.

Newaglish

Tragedy wrote: »

It's funny you picked the last 13 years, as if you had have said.. I dunno, 14 years? It would have shown PD's in opposition to FF and Lowry as FG.

Funny you picked 13 years alright. Not suspect at all.

I thought Fianna Fail were only in government since 1997. I looked it up and it appears the PDs voted against Fianna Fail from 92 to 94? Is that right? And then went back to voting with them on everything...

Tragedy

Newaglish wrote: »

I thought Fianna Fail were only in government since 1997. I looked it up and it appears the PDs voted against Fianna Fail from 92 to 94? Is that right? And then went back to voting with them on everything...

I really don't get what point you're trying to make. Independents and small parties with lots to gain voted with a government in order to receive said vastly disproportionate gain?
That's got nothing to do with the groutch stating "once a FFer always an FFer" when that's clearly not the case.

Newaglish

The point I'm trying to make is that while people leave Fianna Fail over certain disagreements, they almost invariably continue to vote with the party because either:

a) they still have the same ideologies as the party and;
b) they have "lots to gain" in government so are happy to throw their opposing ideology out the window

I really only commented because I couldn't follow why you named those TDs in particular.

SB-08

Newaglish wrote: »

The point I'm trying to make is that while people leave Fianna Fail over certain disagreements, they almost invariably continue to vote with the party because either:

a) they still have the same ideologies as the party and;
b) they have "lots to gain" in government so are happy to throw their opposing ideology out the window

I really only commented because I couldn't follow why you named those TDs in particular.

Joe Behan is the most obvious example of this. He left over the issue of the over 70's Medical card but has voted for everything else, including the budget and Finance Bill, since then. So what was the point? The reason most of these leave FF is solely for self-interest.

Tragedy

Newaglish wrote: »

The point I'm trying to make is that while people leave Fianna Fail over certain disagreements, they almost invariably continue to vote with the party because either:

a) they still have the same ideologies as the party and;
b) they have "lots to gain" in government so are happy to throw their opposing ideology out the window

I really only commented because I couldn't follow why you named those TDs in particular.

a)is almost impossible to prove, and b) doesn't support the argument that "once FF always FF".