How much should I deduct from the tenant deposit?

Zamboni

astrofool wrote: »

And where does one get a 2 year old lamp?

Adverts.ie

astrofool wrote: »

You pay replacement cost, not original cost minus depreciation.

It's like insurance. You should put the landlord back in the same position before the damage/loss.
The landlord is not owed a brand new lamp.

This is all fairly childish tbh. The landlord/lady should just do a deal with the tenant on the value of the lamp. i.e. The lamp cost €50 new, you broke/lost it. Let's call it €25 out of the deposit.

ZYX

astrofool wrote: »

And where does one get a 2 year old lamp? Dunnes, Penneys, House of Fraser? You pay replacement cost, not original cost minus depreciation.

As Zamboni says. You pay what the value of the lamp was at the time of damage. The landlord makes up the rest.

I own a 7 year old car. If you crash into me, totally your fault and my car is a total write off, are you going to buy me a brand new car? Ofcourse not. You will pay me the estimated value of the 7 year old car. Whether I can actually buy a replacement car for that amount is totally irrelevant. It is the same if you damage property in a rented house.

astrofool

ZYX wrote: »

As Zamboni says. You pay what the value of the lamp was at the time of damage. The landlord makes up the rest.

I own a 7 year old car. If you crash into me, totally your fault and my car is a total write off, are you going to buy me a brand new car? Ofcourse not. You will pay me the estimated value of the 7 year old car. Whether I can actually buy a replacement car for that amount is totally irrelevant. It is the same if you damage property in a rented house.

With a car, similar cars are almost always readily available.

House insurance also pays replacement cost. Have a 20 year old stereo stolen, and insurance will pay the cost to buy a new stereo.

lendmeyourear

gillybean wrote: »

I'm very sorry if I come across as though I don't know what I'm doing but this is the first time I have had a tenant leave where there was a question over the deposit. I don't want to mess her about by deducting more than a reasonable amount for damaged items. Eg the lamp cost 50 euro but I'm not planning on charging her the full amount for it.
I'm a new user to boards and I have to say there are some lovely people out there but there are a lot of very rude ones!

Gillybean
I too am a novice to the boards and am just learning that although one might be earnest in wishing to discuss a problem and open a thread, there are some that just wish to chip in to cause controversy when they have had no experience in dealing with a similar problem and are therefore unhelpful. It is a bit of a puzzlement to me but all a learning process
I think you have got some very good advice here and will be able to steer a fair course. Good luck and sure you might return and let us know how it all panned out.

RachaelVO

Aw gillybean, but not giving back the deposit you are asking for trouble, as I am going to guarantee you that you will have to give it all back plus costs eventually.

I understand you're peeved at the wear and tear, but you will be told you should have expected that. My children don't draw on wall either, and to be fair I'd have cleaned it off, but you're asking that this woman hold her kids to the same standards you hold yours and you can't. My kids say please and thanks, some of my friends kids don't, hate it but thats how it is, and it's the same in this case.

Everything else you described will be considered wear and tear for two years.
I know these are not the answers you wanted to hear, but none the less JoKing has given you EVERY argument you will have from your tenant. It will get extremely messy and you will come out the worst of it!

Kosseegan

RachaelVO wrote: »

Aw gillybean, but not giving back the deposit you are asking for trouble, as I am going to guarantee you that you will have to give it all back plus costs eventually.

There is no cost at the adjudication stage in the PRTB other than the cost of witnesses. The Landlord has to justify retaining the deposit and will be forced to prove beyond all reasonable doubt that retaining money was justified.
If there are photographs did the tenant sign them at the start? Does the tenant agree that items are missing? Does the tenant agree that tems have been damaged beyond all wear and tear? One tactic which is used is to keep the full deposit and when the tenant goes to the PRTB offer to settle the case at a lower sum. Most tenants will agree.

OS119

sorry OP, all of what you describe sounds like fair wear and tear to me.

writing on the wall isn't, but how it affectes you is - you need to redecorate at the end of each tenancy, so whether the walls are clean or written on is irrelevent to you because you'll be doing it anyway

personally i'd ask the tenant to replace the lamp with 'a lamp' - they'll get something cheap and cheerful which the next tenant will thank them for - tenants don't like being treated as unpaid curators for expensive/valued furnature that the LL wants kept nice while someone else pays their mortgage.

renting is a business - the tools used should be appropriate to that business - and fancy bollox seat covers (i have the exact same type myself and hate them) and €50 lamps are not appropriate when you're renting out to young families. if you rented out an AMG Mercedes Benz with leather seats to a plasterer or bricklayer to be used as their work vehicle, and then whinged about the seats being ripped and the whole thing filthy and scratched everyone whould laugh at you.

axer

OS119 wrote: »

sorry OP, all of what you describe sounds like fair wear and tear to me.

Couldn't disagree more. If something broke while the tennant was living there then they should let the landlord know about it.

Handles missing from kitchen presses and wardrobe - Definitely not wear and tear. Landlord should have been notified.

Scribbling on walls and doors - not wear and tear

Kitchen chair cushions - a certain extent of damage could be attributed to wear and tear but it depends on the damage.

Lamp missing - not wear and tear. Landlord should have been notified.

A drawer broken - not wear and tear but it might depend on what way it is broken. Landlord should have been notified.

OS119, the only thing I can see that could be argued as wear and tear are the kitchen seats (but that depends on the type of damage). How is all of the above wear and tear when it is clearly not?

Farls

Do an inspection.
Notify the tenant of your findings.
Ask them if they want to fix/replace and get full deposit back or do they want you to fix/replace and deduct your costs from deposit.

If they were a good tenant (there years and always paid on time) I would forget about all you have mentioned. If they have only been there a short time and/or been late or awkward with rent I would be be awkward back.

OS119

axer wrote: »

Couldn't disagree more. If something broke while the tennant was living there then they should let the landlord know about it.
...

oh i agree about that, and i'm not suggesting that i'd be wildly happy to find out about this stuff on final inspection/handover - however the LL should accept that 'stuff breaks' as part of normal wear and tear. no one i know has a 20 year old kitchen thats as good as the day it was bought (actually, i don't think i know anyone with a 20 year old kitchen...) and at some point 'degradation' becomes 'stops working' or 'breaks'.

yes some things have undoubtedly been treated with less care than one might like - but this is renting, nobody treats rented property like they'd treat their own, and LL's need to factor that into their financial calculations in the same way as a car hire firm will factor in the increased maintainence/repair costs that acrue from hirers ranting the fcuk out of hire cars.

Zikiz

I'm renting the house for 8 years now and my bed broke. Bed that cost 170 at Argos. How should I compensate or 8 years its enough to ask landlord for a new bed and a mattress? Its there any general rule on how to calculate wear and tear of house, kitchen appliances?

pejay

If your house came as furnished and the bed was there, after 8 years i think you should be able to ask Landlord for a new bed,

Me personally i would buy my own bed at least i know where it came from, and that i would be comfortable in it, most Landlords/lady will buy a cheap bed as it only for the rented accomadation,within 6 months to a year the springs will poke through.
When i go to view a house if they beds are already there i tell them i will provide my own beds, but that depends on your financial situation.:)

djimi

I would say that after 8 years its fair enough to expect the landlord to replace a broken bed, provided its not very obvious that the bed has been broken through misuse (having kids using it as a trampolene for example). Id say the matress has also come near the end of its life so its not unreasonable to expect the landlord to replace it if needs be.

Wrt to original quesion in this thread; the landlord is only entitled to deduct from the deposit the cost of repairing the accomodation and nothing more. This is not an approximate figure; you go get quotes to have the repairs done (you cannot deduct money for repairs which you carry out yourself afaik) and you provide the tenant with reciepts for the amount which you are deducting. You can only take what you can provide reciepts for.

I would also have no problem deducting the cost of painting the accomodation from the deposit. Under normal circumstances a few marks on the walls are just normal wear and tear and if the landlord wants to repaint the place then its their own business, but I dont see how someone allowing their kid to draw all over the walls and doors falls under normal wear and tear, and if it was me I would be insisting that they pay to have the damage put right.

odds_on

gillybean wrote: »

Hi there
My tenant is moving out and I went to see the house yesterday and it is not in good repair.

Did you do any mid term inspections?
Did you advise her what should be cleaned and repaired?
Do you have an entry inventory, either attached to the lease (as an annex or Schedule to the lease), or a separate document, stating every item (preferable room by room) and it's condition - all furniture, fittings, appliances, floors and floor coverings, walls and even ceilings, windows, doors, garden, etc? Again, it is preferable to have lots of photos (date stamped) or a video of the property and its interior.
Was the entry inventory signed by the tenant to show acceptance of the inventory?
If you have no entry inventory signed by the tenant, basically you cannot claim for any damage as you have no proof as to the existence, condition or number of the items included in the house when the lease started.

Her children have scribbled on the walls and doors in 3 rooms and the landing.

Writing on the wall is not normal wear and tear. However, children in a property will drastically increase the normal wear and tear. But if there is no entry inventory, the tenant can claim that the writing was there before she moved in.

The kitchen chair cushions are in a very bad state. They are material and attached to the chairs.

Probably normal wear and tear (possibly also depending on the quality of the chairs - cheaper chairs will suffer more wear than more expensive ones - you get what you pay for. Were they on the inventory showing number and condition?

There are handles missing from the kitchen presses and a wardrobe.

Probably not normal wear and tear but again depends on the quality of the fittings, and how long they have been in use. Was the condition of the presses on the inventory?

There is a lamp missing.

Is it on the entry inventory, normally attached to the lease, and signed by the tenant to say that she accepts that it was there. If so, the tenant is liable for the cost, but only its second-hand cost - you are not allowed to have embellishment or gain in replacing an item. You cannot claim new for old. Every item has a life span (or depreciation value).

A drawer is broken in a chest of drawers.

Probably not normal wear and tear but again depends on the quality of the fittings, and how long they have been in use - how old was the chest of drawers? Was the condition of the item on the inventory?

Roughly how much should I deduct from the total deposit of 1000?

If you have no entry inventory you should not deduct one cent - your fault for not completing an entry inventory.

However, if any item was new or redecorated immediately prior to the tenant moving in, and you have receipts to prove it - then you could probably deduct something for repairs and redecoration.

Few tenants will look after a property as a house owner would. Hence, you get minor things like broken handles on kitchen presses, knobs coming off drawers etc.. This, you have to calculate into your rental price.

pejay

I have been renting houses for 6 years now and i would never allow my children to scribble on walls,however my friends children scribbled on my daughters wall, i repainted it myself at my own cost, as the walls were perfect when i moved in,

If the house i were renting was rented as furnished i ask the landlord to remove furniture that he does not want damaged, as i cant guarentee that it would not get broken, (my children 3 of them teenagers have friends in the house) i would rather not have it there in the first place and have the worry of it being broken and having to find replacement before i move out.

I always take photos of the house when i move in and store them with the date so i have proof of the condition of the house, anything that i feel may get broke that belongs to landlord i store in the loft or shed until i move out, and then i put it back in its place when i move.

Pkiernan

RachaelVO wrote: »

Aw gillybean, but not giving back the deposit you are asking for trouble, as I am going to guarantee you that you will have to give it all back plus costs eventually.

I understand you're peeved at the wear and tear, but you will be told you should have expected that. My children don't draw on wall either, and to be fair I'd have cleaned it off, but you're asking that this woman hold her kids to the same standards you hold yours and you can't. My kids say please and thanks, some of my friends kids don't, hate it but thats how it is, and it's the same in this case.

Everything else you described will be considered wear and tear for two years.
I know these are not the answers you wanted to hear, but none the less JoKing has given you EVERY argument you will have from your tenant. It will get extremely messy and you will come out the worst of it!

I can't see how this post could be more wrong.

OP: Withold the entire deposit. Pay to have the dwelling brought back to the standard you rented it out at. Keep all invoices. If there is anything left over, give it to the tenant.

Anyone who thinks that kids writing on walls is normal wear and tear must live downwind of a cannabis plantation.

odds_on

Pkiernan wrote: »

I can't see how this post could be more wrong.

OP: Withold the entire deposit. Pay to have the dwelling brought back to the standard you rented it out at. Keep all invoices. If there is anything left over, give it to the tenant.

Anyone who thinks that kids writing on walls is normal wear and tear must live downwind of a cannabis plantation.

If the tenant made a claim with the PRTB, the landlord will lose if he/she does not have an entry inventory stating clearly the condition of the property at the start of the tenancy. Receipts/invoices to prove the property was decorated/professionally cleaned immediately prior to the tenant taking up occupancy or possibly a witness that can testify to the its condition might also prove the condition to the adjudicator's satisfaction. The PRTB will side with the tenant if there is any doubt because the landlord is supposed to be a professional at his business, knowing all the requirements in case there is a dispute - the tenant is not a professional in renting.

quietsailor

OS119 wrote: »

oh i agree about that, and i'm not suggesting that i'd be wildly happy to find out about this stuff on final inspection/handover - however the LL should accept that 'stuff breaks' as part of normal wear and tear. no one i know has a 20 year old kitchen thats as good as the day it was bought (actually, i don't think i know anyone with a 20 year old kitchen...) and at some point 'degradation' becomes 'stops working' or 'breaks'.

yes some things have undoubtedly been treated with less care than one might like - but this is renting, nobody treats rented property like they'd treat their own, and LL's need to factor that into their financial calculations in the same way as a car hire firm will factor in the increased maintainence/repair costs that acrue from hirers ranting the fcuk out of hire cars.

Hate to pull you up on this bud but I was up home the weekend before last and was talking to my mother when a friend who manafacturers and installs kitchens called over to see me. he was angling for work and asked Mom would she consider changing the kitchen - her answer was "It was good enough for the last 20 years it doesn't need changing now" Its in perfect condition because she minded it -
never washed the doors or counter in bleach,
never cut food on the countertop; only on a chopping board.
didn't allow us to be rough with it

Mom wouldn't be the kind of person who puts plastic over chairs either to "keep them like new" - she believes furniture is there to be used not looked at. If she can keep that kitchen for 22 yrs (house was built in 1990) then why can't other people - answer they don't care.

And "I don't care becasue I'm only renting" DOES NOT EQUAL fair wear and tear

quietsailor

odds_on wrote: »

If the tenant made a claim with the PRTB, the landlord will lose if he/she does not have an entry inventory stating clearly the condition of the property at the start of the tenancy. Receipts/invoices to prove the property was decorated/professionally cleaned immediately prior to the tenant taking up occupancy or possibly a witness that can testify to the its condition might also prove the condition to the adjudicator's satisfaction. The PRTB will side with the tenant if there is any doubt because the landlord is supposed to be a professional at his business, knowing all the requirements in case there is a dispute - the tenant is not a professional in renting.

Why did you put in the sentence in bold - I've never heard of that before. If the landlord has photos of the walls, floors and fittings/furniture in good condition and the tenant signs the photos then thats the standard set. Previous receipts mean nothing.

miller50841

Pkiernan wrote: »

I can't see how this post could be more wrong.

OP: Withold the entire deposit. Pay to have the dwelling brought back to the standard you rented it out at. Keep all invoices. If there is anything left over, give it to the tenant.

Anyone who thinks that kids writing on walls is normal wear and tear must live downwind of a cannabis plantation.

:cool:Think you all need to cop on all kids will do this they go through fases they dont understand its wrong yes I believe the tenant should have done something about it but I know well most kids if not all will do something like that or heaven forbid they may spill a drink oh no the end of the world sure lets wrap them up in straight jackets so they dont do any wrong. This is how kids learn...

Sounds like a few yuppy people on this. And original poster fair play for asking an honest question.

djimi

odds_on wrote: »

If the tenant made a claim with the PRTB, the landlord will lose if he/she does not have an entry inventory stating clearly the condition of the property at the start of the tenancy. Receipts/invoices to prove the property was decorated/professionally cleaned immediately prior to the tenant taking up occupancy or possibly a witness that can testify to the its condition might also prove the condition to the adjudicator's satisfaction. The PRTB will side with the tenant if there is any doubt because the landlord is supposed to be a professional at his business, knowing all the requirements in case there is a dispute - the tenant is not a professional in renting.

The OP has already said that they have photos from prior to the tenant moving in and from inspections of the property. Should be pretty easy one for the OP to prove that the tenant caused the damage.

djimi

miller50841 wrote: »

:cool:Think you all need to cop on all kids will do this they go through fases they dont understand its wrong yes I believe the tenant should have done something about it but I know well most kids if not all will do something like that or heaven forbid they may spill a drink oh no the end of the world sure lets wrap them up in straight jackets so they dont do any wrong. This is how kids learn...

Sounds like a few yuppy people on this. And original poster fair play for asking an honest question.

Noone is blaming the kid for drawing on the wall, or even blaming the parent for letting them do it. But that doesnt absolve the tenant of the responsibility to have the damage put right. If I drew on the walls of my apartment I would be held accountable for the repair; I dont see why it should be any different just because it was a child that caused the damage. Crayon drawings on a wall certainly fall well outside what would be considered to be normal wear and tear...

miller50841

djimi wrote: »

Noone is blaming the kid for drawing on the wall, or even blaming the parent for letting them do it. But that doesnt absolve the tenant of the responsibility to have the damage put right. If I drew on the walls of my apartment I would be held accountable for the repair; I dont see why it should be any different just because it was a child that caused the damage. Crayon drawings on a wall certainly fall well outside what would be considered to be normal wear and tear...

If you read what I said I did say the tenant should do something to clean it up or even paint the bad parts.

I am renting at the moment and have a little kid who then decided to draw with pen and markers and crayons its mad because we would always try and keep these out of reach but have found she is very good at stashing her haul .

The way I look at it is if I damage something I take care of it and have done so by cleaning the walls and doors and have also painted.

I know this is off topic but renting the house which we took has been a nightmare everthing going wrong and have huge damp and mould problems.

pawnacide

Just give the deposit back, hard to see the difference between wall scribblings and wall marks (which could be considered normal wear and tear) in terms of repair costs, handles and doors should be cheap enough .. cushions might be considered wear and tear also. Some tenants are better than others and it's really not worth the hassle of getting into it with her for the costs of repair in this case.

Just be sure you let her next Landlord know what to expect if you get a call regarding a reference.

pejay

pawnacide wrote: »

Just give the deposit back, hard to see the difference between wall scribblings and wall marks (which could be considered normal wear and tear) in terms of repair costs, handles and doors should be cheap enough .. cushions might be considered wear and tear also. Some tenants are better than others and it's really not worth the hassle of getting into it with her for the costs of repair in this case.

Just be sure you let her next Landlord know what to expect if you get a call regarding a reference.

Good Advice

djimi

pawnacide wrote: »

Just give the deposit back, hard to see the difference between wall scribblings and wall marks (which could be considered normal wear and tear) in terms of repair costs, handles and doors should be cheap enough .. cushions might be considered wear and tear also. Some tenants are better than others and it's really not worth the hassle of getting into it with her for the costs of repair in this case.

Just be sure you let her next Landlord know what to expect if you get a call regarding a reference.

I wish you were my landlord; Id love to deal with a pushover like you...

Senna

This thread is a year old, i'd say the OP has dealt with the deposit issue by now.

shoegirl

gillybean wrote: »

Hi there
My tenant is moving out and I went to see the house yesterday and it is not in good repair.
Her children have scribbled on the walls and doors in 3 rooms and the landing.
The kitchen chair cushions are in a very bad state. They are material and attached to the chairs.
There are handles missing from the kitchen presses and a wardrobe.
There is a lamp missing.
A drawer is broken in a chest of drawers.
Roughly how much should I deduct from the total deposit of 1000?

The deduction should be the cost of repairing the damage. No more, and no less. If they had been there for some years they may have a case for wear and tear for the kitchen chairs and handles. If they were brand new or in an excellent state when they moved in you may be justified in charging for the cost of repair/replacement. However if they lived there for 5 years plus and you did not maintain the place, well the best you can get legitimately is the cost of replacing the lamp and the graffiti on walls and doors.

This might also be a suggestion, but don't put grannys 20 year old broken furniture into a let and expect it to come out in perfect order in 2 years time, poor quality fixtures and fittings will not survive a tenancy.

shoegirl

quietsailor wrote: »

Hate to pull you up on this bud but I was up home the weekend before last and was talking to my mother when a friend who manafacturers and installs kitchens called over to see me. he was angling for work and asked Mom would she consider changing the kitchen - her answer was "It was good enough for the last 20 years it doesn't need changing now" Its in perfect condition because she minded it -
never washed the doors or counter in bleach,
never cut food on the countertop; only on a chopping board.
didn't allow us to be rough with it

Mom wouldn't be the kind of person who puts plastic over chairs either to "keep them like new" - she believes furniture is there to be used not looked at. If she can keep that kitchen for 22 yrs (house was built in 1990) then why can't other people - answer they don't care.

And "I don't care becasue I'm only renting" DOES NOT EQUAL fair wear and tear

Thats very fair, but its unlikely that your mother installed old furntiture that otherwise would be dumped, or the cheapest, nastiest of fixtures and then expect them to last 20 years. The problem in some rentals is that poor quality or very old furniture or fixures don't last. Its common for some landlords to seek out the very cheapest of fridges, washing machines etc, and central heating is the biggest source of cost cutting, but these simply don't last. I've lived in a mixture of places of varied quality and when landlords put in normal domestic standard fixutures with known brand names and moderate quality furniture, it lasted fine. Where the furniture was already in poor shape or very old, and the fixures some ultracheap noname brand, of course they started breaking down within very short spaces of time.

pawnacide

djimi wrote: »

I wish you were my landlord; Id love to deal with a pushover like you...

Ok , look at the list of things wrong, add up what you think it comes to and tell me how you'd justify the expenses you come up to a ptrb adjudication board. I reckon 100 euro max.