Renting land

Juniorhurler

I am looking to expand out a bit this year with stocking rate. I am looking at taking 30 acres about 7 miles from home. I will be planning on cutting silage off of it and using all the land close to home to run the sucklers. I know if weather is unfavourable this may be late silage and quality may be down, but for the most part of the winter I only feed dry cows.

The land that I am in negotiations over is excellent grazing ground, but a little wet. It would open up about mid April and close off at the end of October generally. There are no rushes. It is what is known as Macamore land here in Wexford if any of you are familiar with this.

Anyway, the guy who is setting it wants to keep the maps to put it into AEOS but set the land. He hasn't made his mind up fully on a price yet and asked me to make him an offer. Just wondering does anybody out there know how much is it worth? How much is grassland making with maps around the country this year? Rumours around here say up to €255 per acre.
Thanks for any help.

Juniorhurler

Any ideas anybody?

Tipp Man

you would want to be off your head to be paying €255 an acre for renting ground expecially if its on the wet side, that's only a 6 month grazing season

Prime tillage land near us made 250 and everybody is saying that the guy who bought it (3 year lease) is off his head and i agree

Knock at least €100 off that or else offer him 255 per hectare not per acre

ihatetractors

If it's on the wet side i wouldnt even give €150, we pay €100 along with the sfp for tillage land down bunclody/ferns/enniscorthy area, thats all on 5 yr+ leases though so the owner gets a much reduced tax bill

Juniorhurler

Tipp Man wrote: »

you would want to be off your head to be paying €255 an acre for renting ground expecially if its on the wet side, that's only a 6 month grazing season

Prime tillage land near us made 250 and everybody is saying that the guy who bought it (3 year lease) is off his head and i agree

Knock at least €100 off that or else offer him 255 per hectare not per acre

€255 is for good tillage ground and I know of €300 being given for potato ground. I take it you are suggesting about €150 WITHOUT maps?

Juniorhurler

ihatetractors wrote: »

If it's on the wet side i wouldnt even give €150, we pay €100 along with the sfp for tillage land down bunclody/ferns/enniscorthy area, thats all on 5 yr+ leases though so the owner gets a much reduced tax bill

Land won't be anything near that cheap on the open market this year I fear. after a good year in farming land will always rise. You are lucky to have the long term lease.

djmc

I know of land that is leased for 30 euro an acre with maps and I wouldnt pay that wet rushy ground.
I am paying around 100 for mixed land which is the going rate around here
Would have to travel 50 or 60 miles to find tillage ground

ihatetractors

Juniorhurler wrote: »

Land won't be anything near that cheap on the open market this year I fear. after a good year in farming land will always rise. You are lucky to have the long term lease.

Ay, but between fert/diesel etc any increase in price is already almost wiped out. Hope lads don't get burned too bad this year as i know a few lads that never did tillage have taken land, might be to grow their own feed though

Juniorhurler

Just talking to a local aucioneer. He reckons €140-150 without maps, €200 or so with maps.

st1979

Why bother renting the ground. Unless your fully set up with a silage outfit your going to have to pay a contractor to do it. Why not just buy in the silage or hay or maize or meal or any of the by products available as your silage is going to be dear. And with no maps you cant use it for reducing your nitrates.
And i am talking with lots of experience of renting land with and without maps in macamore area. Personally i would feel 120 is enough with out maps as you have to remember your paying for map acres but farming net acres. At least when you are getting maps with it you might be getting a bit of benefit from the gross area for disadvantage etc.
Look at other options before you take it.

poor farmer

IF you do not have the land on your area aid form ,technically you should not have cattle on it . €100 /ACRE max without maps.

Tipp Man

Juniorhurler wrote: »

€255 is for good tillage ground and I know of €300 being given for potato ground. I take it you are suggesting about €150 WITHOUT maps?

Maximum - even less i'd say

Of course this is only my opinion and if you think you can make it work at a decent rent then you should go for it

Question is does land without the maps make much sense unless it's cheap??

just do it

Juniorhurler wrote: »

I will be planning on cutting silage off of it and using all the land close to home to run the sucklers.

st1979 wrote: »

Why bother renting the ground. Why not just buy in the silage or hay or maize or meal or any of the by products available as your silage is going to be dear. Look at other options before you take it.

Take a look at the figures. If your only using it to cut silage what will it cost you per round bale? Lets say 2 cuts off 30acres giving 12 bales/ac/cut -> 720 bales. It will surely cost you at least €15 per bale if using a contractor, spreading fertilizer, and given all the transport involved. This comes to €10,800.

Now add in the rent of €250/ac. This is an extra €7500 coming to grand total of €18,300. That works out at €25 per bale.

Let say you rent at €100/ac. Thats €3,000 giving a total of €13,800 for your 720 bales. That works out at €19 per bale.

Surely you can source bales straight from the field alot closer to you than 7 miles for that kind of money. And as your feeding dry cows in a tillage area, feeding them straw as well as silage will also cut the winter feed bill. And best of all, other lads are doing all the foraging work for you!

Let us know what you decide.

Juniorhurler

just do it wrote: »

Take a look at the figures. If your only using it to cut silage what will it cost you per round bale? Lets say 2 cuts off 30acres giving 12 bales/ac/cut -> 720 bales. It will surely cost you at least €15 per bale if using a contractor, spreading fertilizer, and given all the transport involved. This comes to €10,800.

Now add in the rent of €250/ac. This is an extra €7500 coming to grand total of €18,300. That works out at €25 per bale.

Let say you rent at €100/ac. Thats €3,000 giving a total of €13,800 for your 720 bales. That works out at €19 per bale.

Surely you can source bales straight from the field alot closer to you than 7 miles for that kind of money. And as your feeding dry cows in a tillage area, feeding them straw as well as silage will also cut the winter feed bill. And best of all, other lads are doing all the foraging work for you!

Let us know what you decide.

The thing about macamore ground is that while it is wet it grows grass like no other ground. Fertilizer would be absolutely minimal and on a good year of weather I would also get 2-3 months of after grass which would be fierce handy. Its hard to know. I need to sit down with this guy and pin him to a price per acre. It wont be anywher near 255, but it won't be 100 either. I have a feeling that he has about 140 in his head.

just do it

Juniorhurler wrote: »

The thing about macamore ground is that while it is wet it grows grass like no other ground. Fertilizer would be absolutely minimal and on a good year of weather I would also get 2-3 months of after grass which would be fierce handy. Its hard to know. I need to sit down with this guy and pin him to a price per acre. It wont be anywher near 255, but it won't be 100 either. I have a feeling that he has about 140 in his head.

I'm on the west coast myself and have similar type land with peaty soil. Great at growing grass, but in a wet year grazing needs to be well managed. To get the most out of the after grass you need to be moving the stock every few days to stop them ploughing up the ground. This year I had to house cattle on Nov 1st, despite having plenty grass. Big suckler cows do alot of damage!

Are you squeezing every last blade of grass out of your own farm? (By the way I know I'm not!) Before I'd go forking out on rented land, I'd make sure I'm getting the most out of my home farm. Also don't underestimate the man hours involved in a parcel of land 7 miles away.

Anyway it's all just food for thought and I hope it's helpful. Best of luck, what ever you decide. Let us know what you decide.

galwayhillbilly

I have very similar ground to yourselves but in the west, I am getting about 120 an acre with maps(no sfp just area aid) the rent prices you are talking about seem out of this world to me. I am being told that I am getting top dollar by my auctioneer which is why I am planning to go into AEOS this year because I reckon I can get more out of it than I can on rent, if I got 100/ac and got to keep the maps as well and get both area aid and AEOS I'd be a very happy camper, I would be very close to doubling my income from the land

threeball

galwayhillbilly wrote: »

I have very similar ground to yourselves but in the west, I am getting about 120 an acre with maps(no sfp just area aid) the rent prices you are talking about seem out of this world to me. I am being told that I am getting top dollar by my auctioneer which is why I am planning to go into AEOS this year because I reckon I can get more out of it than I can on rent, if I got 100/ac and got to keep the maps as well and get both area aid and AEOS I'd be a very happy camper, I would be very close to doubling my income from the land

In a similar situation ourselves GHB. Ground is fairly good though. Would you be able to take a cut of hay/silage off it as well to sell, to top off those payments or would that contravene the rules?

galwayhillbilly

I sold the meadows, alright, I have been accepted on AEOS but no contract yet, Waiting on maps to be digitised for Area aid, will eventually be making more money than renting but it will be a while before I see any of it by the looks of things, hoping to see area aid cheque this side of christmas, would take the pressure off. God knows when the AEOS will come through, maybe for next christmas.

Can't see there being any issue with selling the meadows or cutting hay/silage yourself and selling it, if you are doing a traditional hay meadow action you have to wait until some date in july before you can cut and if you are making silage you have to turn it at least twice, easy to enforce if you are doing it yourself but not so easy if someone is buying the meadow off you and are trying to keep costs down, if anyone gives me any hassle I'll just turn it myself the second time.

it will take me at least 3 years to be fully stocked so I will be selling excess hay and silage for all of that time and even aftergrass if it's allowed.

I've applied to national reserve for SFP don't know if I'll get it but I'm not going to buy any entitlements untill I see what's happening in europe.
I am glad I did this even though it is tough going waiting on money from the govt. But then again tenants have kept me waiting for my money too and I have heard of worse where renting is involved

6600

When are the department going to clamp down on the lads renting out their land but still claiming REPS, AEOS and SFP. It's fraud, pure and simple. How the hell do they get away with an inspection?

Juniorhurler

6600 wrote: »

When are the department going to clamp down on the lads renting out their land but still claiming REPS, AEOS and SFP. It's fraud, pure and simple. How the hell do they get away with an inspection?

If they weren't stopped during the good times they won't be now when there are less civil servants to carry out inspections.

galwayhillbilly

I would assume that because notice is given of an inspection it is easy enough to move stock around beforehand, As far as I am aware under REPs you are entitled to have B&B arrangements for animals on your land, in this situation you are deemed to be selling the produce of your land as opposed to renting it. I would imagine It is very hard for an inspector to distinguish between a B&B arrangement and a renting situation especially if everything is done by cash and no written agreement.
I am sure many the inspector has been told that 'those animals are trespassing' or that 'I let him graze that field because I had too much grass and he's only doing me a favour'. I spent years letting and handing over maps and it was only when I read this thread that I realised that lads were letting and holding onto SFP for themselves. I didnt know whether it was legal or not, but It did make me realise the benefits of having SFP entitlements in my own name.

6600

It seems to be getting more widespread this year with the good money on offer for conacre. Beside me land made €250 for wheat next yr with the owner still able to claim SFP, AEOS and still qualifying for farmer rate of forestry premia on his recently planted land. This is nothing less than theft. There has to be some way the Dept. have of checking if he is actually a farmer. Do these people never get asked for Nitrates records or a sales docket for grain.
It boils my blood because these people never produce anything but get paid on the double nonetheless.

irishh_bob

seems difficult to establish what the average rate is for conacre theese days , where i live it used to be 100 pound = 127 euro per acre with maps , i realise its gone up this past number of years but what is the average ? , id have thought 150 for grazing ground with maps for decent land

djmc

6600 wrote: »

It seems to be getting more widespread this year with the good money on offer for conacre. Beside me land made €250 for wheat next yr with the owner still able to claim SFP, AEOS and still qualifying for farmer rate of forestry premia on his recently planted land. This is nothing less than theft. There has to be some way the Dept. have of checking if he is actually a farmer. Do these people never get asked for Nitrates records or a sales docket for grain.
It boils my blood because these people never produce anything but get paid on the double nonetheless.

What about all the people who have not got sfp because they havent met their min stocking rate.
If they havent got animals in their name it will show up not sure how it works with tillage though

threeball

galwayhillbilly wrote: »

I've applied to national reserve for SFP don't know if I'll get it but I'm not going to buy any entitlements untill I see what's happening in europe.
I am glad I did this even though it is tough going waiting on money from the govt. But then again tenants have kept me waiting for my money too and I have heard of worse where renting is involved

Exactly, the fella renting our land has no respect for it. Its top quality grazing/meadow ground and he's let it go to hell. Grass up over the walls and overgrown with thistles. When we farmed it you would barely find one in any of the fields. Half considering dipping the toe back in. The returns would have to beat renting.

galwayhillbilly

Without an SFP or a REPS or AEOS scheme I don't think the returns are there for a small operator, If I can make 10-20% more than if I was letting, for the peace of mind and the job satisfaction I am happy to run the place myself. Letting you get paid in the spring and in the autumn, With the govt schemes it would seem to be when they feel like it. When you are starting off you can't turn around and sell a bullock or a pen of lambs when you are stuck for a few bob you have to wait for the numbers to build up. So add up on the fingers before you dip the toe

agcons

djmc wrote: »

What about all the people who have not got sfp because they havent met their min stocking rate.
If they havent got animals in their name it will show up not sure how it works with tillage though

No minimum stocking rate for the SFP, only for the disadvantaged payment. From next year all REPS 4 grassland farmers will also need a minimum stock level.
Most of the people we see with nitrates problems are invariably farming land without maps and so have artificially high stocking rates.

6600

Carrot and spuds are driving prices here in South Wex. €350-€400 the go for spuds and €250-€300 for carrot ground and the same for the following grain crops. That's all with no maps. Grain men having to pay over €200 to have any hope of keeping the land. Good grass the same. Its a mug's game. When one fool inevitably goes broke three more step up. Rents are gone so high now they match what interest you'd pay if you bought it. Why make the landlords rich while killing yourself?

mattthetrasher

6600 wrote: »

Carrot and spuds are driving prices here in South Wex. €350-€400 the go for spuds and €250-€300 for carrot ground and the same for the following grain crops. That's all with no maps. Grain men having to pay over €200 to have any hope of keeping the land. Good grass the same. Its a mug's game. When one fool inevitably goes broke three more step up. Rents are gone so high now they match what interest you'd pay if you bought it. Why make the landlords rich while killing yourself?

too true its all to easy be a busy fool take it from one who knows;)