who should we as the farmers be voting for in the election

Jack C

Seems to me that Fine Gael would get an over all majority if Enda wasn't such a plank.

funny man

The way i see it

FF; Lack creditability, going todo now what they didn't do in the last 14years

FG; Weak leader, but some good young guns with potential, also claim they will tackle the overstaffing in the public sector.

Labour; will tax the life out of this country, wont deal with public sector and for farmers they are in favour of passing the green party's bill on climate change.

Greens; grow our own food organicaly of course, build loads of wind turbines to create power, and be the goody two shoes on climate change.

SF; run the IMF/EU burn the bond holders in the banks, spend all our money and the go back to the markets and try to get money from other bond holders. i cant see any logic there, so for a farmer to vote SF we would jeprodise our SFP, conseed to paying loads more tax (property and land tax) and possably go back to the punt with Gerry Adams head on it.

Independants; They mean well!

What we need is a panel of our brightest and best to make informed decisions on our behalf and know their brief that well that they can't be spoofed by outside interests or indeed civil servants, we need a whole new political system where a minister can attend important meetings instead of going to funerals.

Birdnuts

funny man wrote: »

.

SF; run the IMF/EU burn the bond holders in the banks, spend all our money and the go back to the markets and try to get money from other bond holders. i cant see any logic there, so for a farmer to vote SF we would jeprodise our SFP, conseed to paying loads more tax (property and land tax) and possably go back to the punt with Gerry Adams head on it.

.

Going on this thread it appears a large section of the Farming forum have no idea of the implications of the IMF/EU deal for this country or the merits of alternative approaches already outlined briefly in this thread. Tonights VB show should be compulsory viewing for people that still live in Economic La La land!!

Tipp Man

Birdnuts wrote: »

Going on this thread it appears a large section of the Farming forum have no idea of the implications of the IMF/EU deal for this country or the merits of alternative approaches already outlined briefly in this thread. Tonights VB show should be compulsory viewing for people that still live in Economic La La land!!

ah Vincent Browne - the bastion of socialism in Ireland, saviour of the poor and persecutor of the rich.

Going by this thread YOU can't outline the implications of NOT accepting an EU/IMF deal

defadman

Tipp Man wrote: »

ah Vincent Browne - the bastion of socialism in Ireland, saviour of the poor and persecutor of the rich.

Going by this thread YOU can't outline the implications of NOT accepting an EU/IMF deal

100 percent agree!!:D

pakalasa

When you borrow money from a bank, you basically borrow other people's savings. That's how banks operate, the basically act as middle men, taking money from one person and lending it to another. If that person cant pay it back, then it is writen off as bad dept. This bad debt is paid in some small way by everyone else.
The problem in Ireland is there is a huge amount of bad debt, thanks to the housing bubble. We, as in all Irish people, have to pay this money back. Simple because there is no one else who can. Even though it was thrown around like monopoly money during the boom, this money was actually somebody elses hard earned savings.

vanderbadger

did anyone see linehan and noonan on with pat kenny the other night, they both seems to be singing from the same hymn sheet..joan burton had feck all to add i reckoned and the new sein fein kid on the block was spouting their usual line

Birdnuts

Tipp Man wrote: »

ah Vincent Browne - the bastion of socialism in Ireland, saviour of the poor and persecutor of the rich.

Going by this thread YOU can't outline the implications of NOT accepting an EU/IMF deal

In case you haven't noticed he has different guests on from a range of opinions - I suppose the likes of Constatine Gurgiev, Brian Lucy and Paul Someville are idiots too:rolleyes: - I've already explained their approach to managing this crisis, if you don't understand basic finance its not my problem!!

Birdnuts

pakalasa wrote: »

When you borrow money from a bank, you basically borrow other people's savings. That's how banks operate, the basically act as middle men, taking money from one person and lending it to another. If that person cant pay it back, then it is writen off as bad dept. This bad debt is paid in some small way by everyone else.
The problem in Ireland is there is a huge amount of bad debt, thanks to the housing bubble. We, as in all Irish people, have to pay this money back. Simple because there is no one else who can. Even though it was thrown around like monopoly money during the boom, this money was actually somebody elses hard earned savings.

Why should I pay for the gambling debts of big developers and foreign bond holders which make up the bulk of this debt:mad:

Tipp Man

Birdnuts wrote: »

I suppose the likes of Constatine Gurgiev, Brian Lucy and Paul Someville are idiots too:rolleyes:

I'm not calling anybody an idiot at all

What i am saying is that the SF proposals for the economy and the handling of the national and bank debt are simply not workable IMO

Their plan is all based on borrowing continously to keep the standard of living the same as it was in the height of the madness, yet they don't want to take any EU/IMF money despite the fact that it is between 3-4% lower than the market rates we were being offered before they came in - that simply doesn't make sense to anybody. Ok the rate may come down slightly if we "burn the bank bond holders" but our rates will still be extremely high and almost definately higher than the EU/IMF rate. We are borrowing in excess of 20 billion annually to keep the country running (nothing to do with banks) - more money is being borrowed to pay the public sector, the dole etc than is being borrowed for the banks (since 2008). We owe more for the huge public sector spending than we will do for the banks

I think that you'll find that Gurgiev et al all want huge reductions in the public spending to reduce the structural deficit - that is the complete opposite of SF - the only similarity that those guys share with SF is that they don't want the bank debt nationilised and don't want to pay for it - that is the only similarity from what i can see

From my point of view I am not saying that we have to pay every single cent of bank debt - what i am saying is that i have yet to see a serious alternative strategy for the banks which doesn't cost the population less than the current situation. If we let AIB and BOI fold then how are Glanbia going to pay me for my milk, how is Larry Goodman going to pay for my cattle?? What is going to happen to my money in the bank - both my savings and my business cash?

And before you mention that 100k is protected bare in mind that Irish households have anything between 80-100 billion on deposit, the majority of which is covered by the guarantee - if the banks fold can the country afford to reimburse these deposit holders? Even if they could when would i get this money from the government?? Years down the line? If we include corporate and business deposits there are many hundreds of billions in deposit in Ireland

And i haven't even mentioned the madness that is SF's policy for dealing with the budget deficit. Mark my words if they get into power in this country we will be taxed so much on our land that they will end up taking it. Don't forget that Adams is a huge fan of Mugabe and Castro and their politcial ideologies - do you want to be an employee of a state farm??

Tipp Man

Birdnuts wrote: »

Going on this thread it appears a large section of the Farming forum have no idea of the implications of the IMF/EU deal for this country or the merits of alternative approaches already outlined briefly in this thread. Tonights VB show should be compulsory viewing for people that still live in Economic La La land!!

Birdnuts wrote: »

In case you haven't noticed he has different guests on from a range of opinions - I suppose the likes of Constatine Gurgiev, Brian Lucy and Paul Someville are idiots too:rolleyes: - I've already explained their approach to managing this crisis, if you don't understand basic finance its not my problem!!

I don't particularly care for your tone in the above posts particularly those sentences highlighted - for the record i am a qualified economist and a qualified accountant and worked in the financial services sector for many years (not banking before you start) so I find your insinaution that i "don't understand basic finance" quite insulting actually.

Now back to SF - you did not answer my question below on how we were going to finance the public spending after the honey pot of the pension reserve fund is spent? You also didn't answer my point on how the pension reserve fund is going to pay the public sector wages and be used as a multi billion stimulus "job creating" package. SF's answer is to go back to the markets - but a) how do we know they'll even lend to us and b) at what rate will they lend to us??

Can you also outline how SF are going to meet the budget deficit by 2014 if they are going to reverse the cuts of the budget and won't be making the necessary cuts in the future budgets?

Tipp Man wrote: »

how do SF plan on paying the public servants, the dole, the pension, the childrens allowance in 2012 when the honey pot of the Pension Reserve Fund has been spent on it in 2011??

The very same honey pot they are going to raid to spend billions creating jobs - it must be some honey pot

am amazed that anybody with any property/land/anything of any value can even consider voting SF - pure madness IMO

Birdnuts

Tipp Man wrote: »

I'm not calling anybody an idiot at all

What i am saying is that the SF proposals for the economy and the handling of the national and bank debt are simply not workable IMO

Their plan is all based on borrowing continously to keep the standard of living the same as it was in the height of the madness, yet they don't want to take any EU/IMF money despite the fact that it is between 3-4% lower than the market rates we were being offered before they came in - that simply doesn't make sense to anybody. Ok the rate may come down slightly if we "burn the bank bond holders" but our rates will still be extremely high and almost definately higher than the EU/IMF rate. We are borrowing in excess of 20 billion annually to keep the country running (nothing to do with banks) - more money is being borrowed to pay the public sector, the dole etc than is being borrowed for the banks (since 2008). We owe more for the huge public sector spending than we will do for the banks

I think that you'll find that Gurgiev et al all want huge reductions in the public spending to reduce the structural deficit - that is the complete opposite of SF - the only similarity that those guys share with SF is that they don't want the bank debt nationilised and don't want to pay for it - that is the only similarity from what i can see

From my point of view I am not saying that we have to pay every single cent of bank debt - what i am saying is that i have yet to see a serious alternative strategy for the banks which doesn't cost the population less than the current situation. If we let AIB and BOI fold then how are Glanbia going to pay me for my milk, how is Larry Goodman going to pay for my cattle?? What is going to happen to my money in the bank - both my savings and my business cash?

And before you mention that 100k is protected bare in mind that Irish households have anything between 80-100 billion on deposit, the majority of which is covered by the guarantee - if the banks fold can the country afford to reimburse these deposit holders? Even if they could when would i get this money from the government?? Years down the line? If we include corporate and business deposits there are many hundreds of billions in deposit in Ireland

And i haven't even mentioned the madness that is SF's policy for dealing with the budget deficit. Mark my words if they get into power in this country we will be taxed so much on our land that they will end up taking it. Don't forget that Adams is a huge fan of Mugabe and Castro and their politcial ideologies - do you want to be an employee of a state farm??

Deposits of ordinary people are already covered by a long standing guarantee - however this guarantee and indeed the entire economy is under threat due to the exposure of the Irish state to the gambling debts of big developers and bondholders. Something which I am concerned about and is why I and many others have opened accounts in foreign banks. AS regards elevated market rates for Ireland, we are in this position for the very reason that the government made the calamitous decision to tie banking debt to sovereign debt. Iceland are now back in the bond market and paying much lower rates then us because they chose the SF, independent economist approach to this.

As regards the fiscal deficit - little can be done due to the banking crisis consuming so much of the state resources that it leads to higher taxes and costs in the economy thereby stifling state revenues and general economic growth. We cannot continue to cut are way out of this or it will simply lead to a debt spiral on the back of retarded growth. In any case the EU is running the show now so expect water rates, property taxes etc. to come down the line despite the waffle from the main parties on these issues. People need to understand that we have already lost most of our economic soverignty thanx to the bankers, BIFFO, Lenny et al:(

Birdnuts

Tipp Man wrote: »

I don't particularly care for your tone in the above posts particularly those sentences highlighted - for the record i am a qualified economist and a qualified accountant and worked in the financial services sector for many years (not banking before you start) so I find your insinaution that i "don't understand basic finance" quite insulting actually.

So I take it you will be voting FF in the election since you appear to think their approach to the banking crisis and handling of the economy has been a huge success - please point me to any published and credible economist that supports your views on the bail-out!!

aristo

Some great reading here:D
http://www.octane.ie/forum/showthread.php?t=48024

Tipp Man

Birdnuts wrote: »

So I take it you will be voting FF in the election

you take it completly wrong, I have never voted for FF. bit too presumptuous there

And i never said that i supported FF's policies on anything. I said that SF's policies don't stack up whichever way you look at them either for banking but in particular for the broader economy

You seem to think that the banks are the sole reason we are in this mess - and while they are a big problem the public deficit is at least as big (bigger IMO) mess altogether

Birdnuts

Tipp Man wrote: »

You seem to think that the banks are the sole reason we are in this mess -

We can't get a grip on the deficit without a satisfactory resolution to it - of course the initial deficit was caused by letting public spending go wild on the back of auction politics and parish pump strokes with public money. And its not just FF that are prone to that kind of thing - some of FG's policies are on dodgy ground in this regard too

Tipp Man

Birdnuts wrote: »

We can't get a grip on the deficit without a satisfactory resolution to it - of course the initial deficit was caused by letting public spending go wild on the back of auction politics and parish pump strokes with public money. And its not just FF that are prone to that kind of thing - some of FG's policies are on dodgy ground in this regard too

What about SF's policies on it??

Birdnuts

Tipp Man wrote: »

What about SF's policies on it??

A combination of ending tax-breaks, cutting pay in semi-states, ending decentralization, cutting quangos(HSE etc.), reclaiming our natural resources, and halving the pay of politicians and senior civil servants as well as stimulating the economy to mention but a few. Never said SF had all the answers but there the best of a bad lot IMO.

But as I say it all comes down to how we handle the banks and how much control we have left in regards to budgetary policies given the EU/IMF deal - I have big fears about the latter too:(

reilig

Are these policies formulated by Pierce Doherty? Is he likely to be the minister for finance if SF get in? Something tells me that a party who has a finance spokesperson who holds a certificate in civil engineering and has no experience of working in either the public or private sector (with the exception of his 3 months as a TD) cannot possibly expect the people to believe that their economic policy proposals would be best for this country. For god sake, the only thing Doherty has ever done is run for election and he had several failed attempts before he finally managed to get elected.

Its laughable and they cannot expect voters to take them or their economic policies seriously if they don't even have a credible spokesperson.

pakalasa

Birdnuts wrote: »

Why should I pay for the gambling debts of big developers and foreign bond holders which make up the bulk of this debt:mad:

Put it this way, if you lent someone €100 and they told you to f*** off, when you asked for it back, would you lend them another €100 the following week.
So please tell me, who is going to pay the wages of the civil service if we do 'burn' these bond holders. Do you realise how much, as a country, we are borrowing from the international markets every week, just to keep the show on the road?
Do you realise how much extra, in interest payments, we would have to pay if we did not honour the debts of the Irish Banking system.
I dont want to be paying all these extra taxes, any more than you do, but we need 'the charity of our neighbours, as someone put it, now more than ever. We will be generations paying it back, but we dont have a choice.

Birdnuts

pakalasa wrote: »

Put it this way, if you lent someone €100 and they told you to f*** off, when you asked for it back, would you lend them another €100 the following week.
So please tell me, who is going to pay the wages of the civil service if we do 'burn' these bond holders. Do you realise how much, as a country, we are borrowing from the international markets every week, just to keep the show on the road?
Do you realise how much extra, in interest payments, we would have to pay if we did not honour the debts of the Irish Banking system.
I dont want to be paying all these extra taxes, any more than you do, but we need 'the charity of our neighbours, as someone put it, now more than ever. We will be generations paying it back, but we dont have a choice.

What are you talking about - we're already shut out of the markets due to the disasterious decesion to tie private banking debt to our soverign debt. Iceland told the bank boldholders to *** off and is now back in the markit borrowing at much lower rates then us with lower unemployment, quicker growth etc.


PS:I'm rather disturbed at the number of posters here who follow the government spin on this - if this is the view of the general Irish public public then the future for this country is even bleaker then it looks today:(

Birdnuts

reilig wrote: »

Are these policies formulated by Pierce Doherty? Is he likely to be the minister for finance if SF get in? Something tells me that a party who has a finance spokesperson who holds a certificate in civil engineering and has no experience of working in either the public or private sector (with the exception of his 3 months as a TD) cannot possibly expect the people to believe that their economic policy proposals would be best for this country. For god sake, the only thing Doherty has ever done is run for election and he had several failed attempts before he finally managed to get elected.

Its laughable and they cannot expect voters to take them or their economic policies seriously if they don't even have a credible spokesperson.

But you support Lennies banking policies and he trained as a lawyer/liar

johngalway

Birdnuts wrote: »

What are you talking about - we're already shut out of the markets due to the disasterious decesion to tie private banking debt to our soverign debt. Iceland told the bank boldholders to *** off and is now back in the markit borrowing at much lower rates then us with lower unemployment, quicker growth etc.


PS:I'm rather disturbed at the number of posters here who follow the government spin on this - if this is the view of the general Irish public public then the future for this country is even bleaker then it looks today:(

EU/IMF is our only credit source. Pakalasas example is correct. You borrow €100 from me this month and agree to pay that and a percentage for profit to me back within agreed terms as you cannot afford credit elsewhere. You them tell me to fúck off :eek:

Next month, after your my €100 has run out, you're back looking for another €100 loan. I probably punch you in the face, then tell you to fúck off.

Ireland got out of the international markets as they were charging us too much interest. Basically we couldn't afford to borrow money from them.

SF expect people to believe that if we tell those people to fúck off, after borrowing from them and not paying a portion of it back (Gerry Adams said that) that the next year we, Ireland, can go back to those same people and expect to receive favorable lending terms.

So, you let the banks fail. OK. Anglo, AIB, probably BOI and the other one all go under. There goes your economy, gone, poof, no more. No credit, no over drafts, your cheques bounce, wages don't get paid, etc. etc. etc.

By letting the banks fail, and sending Ireland back to the economic Dark Ages (barter system) we have now seperated banking from soverign debt.

So, with that done, we move onto year two....

No one is paying tax because the economy has ground to a halt, no credit in the system you see because there are SFA banks. Sure, there may be the odd foreign bank, but they're charging HUGE interest on everything as we're now the financial equivalent of Somalia.

Oh yeah, the Pension Reserve fund is now a long forgotten, badly spent memory.

In through your Gerry Adams letter box (does that letter get delivered by a red or green van I wonder?) comes a bill. Somewhere along the lines of €40-50bn for running the country....

Oh Geez Pearse, look here at this wee lítir i mo lámh.... (likely to be very dodgy Irish)....

I know Gerry, let's ring them there lads in the International Bond Market.... Oh... Shít..............

That's how SF policy plays out.

funny man

Well put lad

BeeDI

Birdnuts wrote: »

But you support Lennies banking policies and he trained as a lawyer/liar

SF economic policies would make a hell of a lot of remaining wealth disappear overseas in double quick time. But then again SF are pretty synonyms with "the disappeared" in this island. :mad:

Birdnuts

johngalway wrote: »

EU/IMF is our only credit source. Pakalasas example is correct. You borrow €100 from me this month and agree to pay that and a percentage for profit to me back within agreed terms as you cannot afford credit elsewhere. You them tell me to fúck off :eek:

Next month, after your my €100 has run out, you're back looking for another €100 loan. I probably punch you in the face, then tell you to fúck off.

Ireland got out of the international markets as they were charging us too much interest. Basically we couldn't afford to borrow money from them.

SF expect people to believe that if we tell those people to fúck off, after borrowing from them and not paying a portion of it back (Gerry Adams said that) that the next year we, Ireland, can go back to those same people and expect to receive favorable lending terms.

So, you let the banks fail. OK. Anglo, AIB, probably BOI and the other one all go under. There goes your economy, gone, poof, no more. No credit, no over drafts, your cheques bounce, wages don't get paid, etc. etc. etc.

By letting the banks fail, and sending Ireland back to the economic Dark Ages (barter system) we have now seperated banking from soverign debt.

So, with that done, we move onto year two....

No one is paying tax because the economy has ground to a halt, no credit in the system you see because there are SFA banks. Sure, there may be the odd foreign bank, but they're charging HUGE interest on everything as we're now the financial equivalent of Somalia.

Oh yeah, the Pension Reserve fund is now a long forgotten, badly spent memory.

In through your Gerry Adams letter box (does that letter get delivered by a red or green van I wonder?) comes a bill. Somewhere along the lines of €40-50bn for running the country....

Oh Geez Pearse, look here at this wee lítir i mo lámh.... (likely to be very dodgy Irish)....

I know Gerry, let's ring them there lads in the International Bond Market.... Oh... Shít..............

That's how SF policy plays out.

So you are happy to keep pouring billions of rapidly shrinking tax-payers revenues into dud banks that aren't even lending to Irish business and are screwing home owners with interest hikes(just tonight a major bank is raising mortage rates by a massive 3% which is a massive 500 euros on the averge mortage per month) - how long do you think this can go on before the entire economy collapses and masses of people are thrown out of their homes???

I have already pointed out at least half a dozen times on this thread that we are shut out of the credit markets preceisly because we have tied bank debt to soverign debt - something that many people on here still don't seem to get. I have also cited numerious times the Icelandic example which also appears to have gone over the same posters head:rolleyes:

PS: I hope JG you watched the Late Debate RTE I were Pearse Doherty played a stormer and was strongly supported in his position on the banks by the likes of Shane Ross, Constantice Gurghiev and Peter Matthews(who by the way is running for FG in Dublin)

Birdnuts

BeeDI wrote: »

SF economic policies would make a hell of a lot of remaining wealth disappear overseas in double quick time.

Money is flooding out of the country as we speak thanx to the banking policies which many on here appear to support:rolleyes:

PS:Our corporation Tax is also on the line - watch the foreign firms scramble for the door when that goes too to pay for this wonderfull EU/IMF deal:(

Birdnuts

Birdnuts wrote: »

PS: I hope JG you watched the Late Debate RTE I were Pearse Doherty played a stormer and was strongly supported in his position on the banks by the likes of Shane Ross, Constantice Gurghiev and Peter Matthews(who by the way is running for FG in Dublin)

You and pierse have a lot of friends with you on the banks including me.
But me,Constantin,mathews,Ross etc part company with you when you go try run the country at it current size of public sector as if we were still at 2007 levels of national income.

Portraying anyone who is of the view that the banking black hole shouldnt be paid for by us as being in favour of the sinn féin way of running the country...into the ground without having the help of a banking black hole to help you with bankrupting it is well..disingenuous to be frank with you.

ihatetractors

I would have thaught jobs are the biggest issue, fact remains we're still xBillion in a budget defeicit so what ever the solution WE STILL NEED CREDIT. Until that's sorted your pissing into galeforce wind. Can someone roughly say the turnabout of say 200,000 of dole lines and backworking?... Who do you think are best capable of encouraging such economic growth?
We can argue burnthebankers/don'tburn the b(w)ankers all we wwant. But imo, we are where we are, can we try get out rather than spend the next decade fighting over such things, we have to get ourselves in such a position we're self financing first?

If i'm wrong it think i'll sell up fast and go to France/England while lands still cheapish

reilig

Birdnuts wrote: »

But you support Lennies banking policies and he trained as a lawyer/liar

That's not an argument. My dog at home isn't that intelligent. he's only a pup and runs into glass doors and chews a lot of stuff but he'd have more of a handle on the finance portfolio than Lenehan. The fact that Lenehan is useless does not justify the argument that Pierce Doherty would be good. He may be better than Lenehan, but so would my dog.

johngalway

Birdnuts wrote: »

So you are happy to keep pouring billions of rapidly shrinking tax-payers revenues into dud banks that aren't even lending to Irish business and are screwing home owners with interest hikes(just tonight a major bank is raising mortage rates by a massive 3% which is a massive 500 euros on the averge mortage per month) - how long do you think this can go on before the entire economy collapses and masses of people are thrown out of their homes???

I am not happy about the banks at all. But, SF policy pushes the country over the edge right away. Black Briar is correct above. Any time Doherty is asked "How do you pay for year two in government, after the pension reserve fund is gone?". He comes up short, starts spouting the party line, then blaming others. SF policy is to refuse money from EU/IMF and reverse cuts. How long do you think that's sustainable?

Birdnuts wrote: »

I have already pointed out at least half a dozen times on this thread that we are shut out of the credit markets preceisly because we have tied bank debt to soverign debt - something that many people on here still don't seem to get. I have also cited numerious times the Icelandic example which also appears to have gone over the same posters head:rolleyes:

SF's policy on separating the debts also handily crashes the banking sector/economy. Something SF supports, don't appear to get. Icelands living standards have dropped from the top 20 in the world to 118 or 120, that's Icelands position.

Birdnuts wrote: »

PS: I hope JG you watched the Late Debate RTE I were Pearse Doherty played a stormer and was strongly supported in his position on the banks by the likes of Shane Ross, Constantice Gurghiev and Peter Matthews(who by the way is running for FG in Dublin)

I didn't really, it was on but I was attending to other chores at the time. Caught small bits of it but not enough to form an opinion on the programme.

jmayo

Birdnuts wrote: »

They want to separate sovereign from private banking debt to lower our bond yields to sustainable levels - exactly what Iceland has done and they are now recovering much quicker then us and enjoy much lower bond yields. Under the current IMF deal the Pension Reserve fund will disappear into dud banks, never to be seen again - same with any cuts to social welfare and the likes.

The rest of your post is just scaremongering based on propaganda from our corporate right-wing mainstream media:rolleyes:

Ehh you do know that Iceland has it's own currency that it can devalue to make it's exports ever more attractive ?

Birdnuts wrote: »

The IMF deal for countries like Iceland and Latvia had much lower interest rates then the ones foisted on us and by every parameter you care to mention they are recovering quicker then us - The ECB is financing most of the toxic cr%p in Irish banks on behalf of German/French banks and wants to dump all this on the Irish taxpayer despite the fact that these banks were private institutions. ...

Stop concentrating on the IMF deal, the really bad deal we got was from "our friends" in Frankfurt/Brussels.

And yes you are right they are pushing us to cover the debts, but forget the sh**e being issued by SF about telling them all to f off.
We need to convince them to cut us some slack, we have gone so far down this road that we will have to pay something back.
We can't tell them all to f off and expect some of them to lend to us next year as SF seem to propose.
Thanks to ff they turned the debts of two particularly badly run and not really systemic institutions (Anglo and INBS) into soverign debt and have f***ed us up big time.

But remember this even without our banks we are borrowing too much just to cover our massive overspending in public sector. :rolleyes:

Birdnuts wrote: »

So you are happy to keep pouring billions of rapidly shrinking tax-payers revenues into dud banks that aren't even lending to Irish business and are screwing home owners with interest hikes(just tonight a major bank is raising mortage rates by a massive 3% which is a massive 500 euros on the averge mortage per month) - how long do you think this can go on before the entire economy collapses and masses of people are thrown out of their homes???

Masses of people should already have been thrown out of their homes, but we are living in a limbo land where one set of people walk away from their debts dumping them on the taxpayers and another set are protected because it would be politically not good to be seen to be dumping mortgage defaulters out even though lots of them were idiots and overborrowed.
Also because we have no proper housing market due to NAMA, the inability of banks to lend and general fear of the future amongst borrowers, the banks can't shift repossessed property anyway.

Normal borrowing and repayment rules for anything property related seem to have been ignored since 2002. :rolleyes:

Birdnuts wrote: »

PS: I hope JG you watched the Late Debate RTE I were Pearse Doherty played a stormer and was strongly supported in his position on the banks by the likes of Shane Ross, Constantice Gurghiev and Peter Matthews(who by the way is running for FG in Dublin)

They may agree about making bondholders accept losses but I don't think they agree on continuing public sector spending ? :rolleyes:

As for voting do not just think of voting for the guy who lives nearest to you.
John in Galway,
if Galway city is doing well it has knock on affects for all of Galway.
The converse also applies.
BTW I lived in Galway and worked in Connemara once upon a time.

Similarly if Ireland is doing well it has knock on affects for most places in the country.
Rising tide and all that sh**e.
Conversily if Ireland is f***ed, which it is, then so is your little part of your constituency.

We need to stop this local stuff and voting in some moron who just wants to look after his own little patch.
Anyway as other poster said most of the time these spanners are only getting what people are due.

5live

Jebus birdnuts. Be careful what you wish for. You may just get it!

johngalway

jmayo wrote: »

As for voting do not just think of voting for the guy who lives nearest to you.
John in Galway,
if Galway city is doing well it has knock on affects for all of Galway.
The converse also applies.
BTW I lived in Galway and worked in Connemara once upon a time.

Similarly if Ireland is doing well it has knock on affects for most places in the country.
Rising tide and all that sh**e.
Conversily if Ireland is f***ed, which it is, then so is your little part of your constituency.

We need to stop this local stuff and voting in some moron who just wants to look after his own little patch.
Anyway as other poster said most of the time these spanners are only getting what people are due.

Uhm, where did I say I was voting for the person nearest me?

I was making the point that a vote in a constituency is a vote in a constituency, regardless of urban, rural, different county, or distance. But, it IS up to the voters to highlight and press on issues. Politicians are not mind readers, nor do they know everything.

I have no problem bending a politicians ear one some issues. Mostly because "the system" is well and truly fúcking broken, and if (as someone put it) "bull headed Mary" in the Dept. is adamant the computer is right and I'm wrong - regardless of the reality of the issue, then I have no other place to go except two, solicitor or politician.

Fix "the system" and I'll gladly use it, but while it's broken I'll be damned if I'll bend over and let myself be shafted unfairly by it.

Birdnuts

Deleted User wrote: »

You and pierse have a lot of friends with you on the banks including me.
But me,Constantin,mathews,Ross etc part company with you when you go try run the country at it current size of public sector as if we were still at 2007 levels of national income.

Portraying anyone who is of the view that the banking black hole shouldnt be paid for by us as being in favour of the sinn féin way of running the country...into the ground without having the help of a banking black hole to help you with bankrupting it is well..disingenuous to be frank with you.

SF has been in government in NI for over 10 years - guess who has the better economy out of the 2 of us??;)

Birdnuts

johngalway wrote: »

SF's policy on separating the debts also handily crashes the banking sector/economy. Something SF supports, don't appear to get. Icelands living standards have dropped from the top 20 in the world to 118 or 120, that's Icelands position.



.

The fact is that the country is well on the road to recovery compared to us - our living standards can only continue to drop sharply under this deal:(

PS: In fact I can confidently predict that whoever forms the next government, they will be even less popular then the current shower in a years time unless this deal is radically altered!! - and I'll place money on that if anyone wants to take me up!!:D;)

johngalway

Birdnuts wrote: »

The fact is that the country is well on the road to recovery compared to us - our living standards can only continue to drop sharply under this deal:(

Our living standards will always drop in a recession, it's a necessary evil as - in the words of that con man himself - we were living a way beyond our means.

My preference is for those standards to drop over a long time, rather than sharply. The reason behind this is when put to the pin of your collar, most people choose a stay of execution in the hope the Governor calls. The longer duration we can get to recover, the better our chances. So sink slowly rather than hit the bottom then have to get all the way back up. Our fall may yet be arrested by happenings in the future, we simply don't know yet.

Birdnuts wrote: »

PS: In fact I can confidently predict that whoever forms the next government, they will be even less popular then the current shower in a years time unless this deal is radically altered!! - and I'll place money on that if anyone wants to take me up!!:D;)

I don't agree they'll be less popular.

There are three certainties for this country going forward :rolleyes: Deaths, taxes, ..... and cuts. Leave aside banking debt, there's still that Elephant with the €19bn price tag munching peanuts in the living room. It's got to come from somewhere, simple as that.

Three years ago I used to earn a lot more than I do today. It's not been fun. But, there was no alternative for me. Bills gotta be paid, same for the country.

No one likes having less money, doing more with less, losing opportunities, luxuries etc due to lack of money. But it's madness to think we can go on the way we were, anyone saying that is lying (don't mean you BN).

funny man

Birdnuts wrote: »

SF has been in government in NI for over 10 years - guess who has the better economy out of the 2 of us??;)

That could be the answer birdnuts we should join the united kingdom, they made northern ireland what it is today.

What did SF do before the last 10years?

pakalasa

When you stand back and look at it in the cold light of day, we really are in a right mess. Even if we cut back our civil service in numbers or salaries, or a combination of both, what will the knock on effect of that be. Lower income tax receipts, higher dole payments. Overall, it will result in a major contraction in the economy.
At the centre of every decent economy, there is a core industry, be it manufacturing or service, that everything else feeds off. During our celtic tiger, that core was the construction industry. Even it it took billions of borrowed money from abroad to feed this monster, the wealth effect, even it was a false bubble, trickled down to all sectors of society, party in thanks to Berties socialist ideologies . 'If the money's there, spend it'.
When the dust settles and everthing comes back down to earth, what are we left with? A few multinationals, we have feck all indigenous industry, farming and a small service industry. Tough times ahead , I'm afraid.
...and we have to pay back some, or all of the money we borrowed, depending on who gets into power.:(

Birdnuts

funny man wrote: »

That could be the answer birdnuts we should join the united kingdom, they made northern ireland what it is today.

?

You have a point - I can't imagine British rule being worse then the type of FF governments we've had over the years in terms of the damage they have done to the country:(

5live

Birdnuts wrote: »

SF has been in government in NI for over 10 years - guess who has the better economy out of the 2 of us??;)

After the last UK general election, didnt Baron Adams complain about the cuts to the NI budget which is being subsidised, iirc, to the tune of £10 billion a year from the 'mainland'? Now that is really sustainable for a population of 1.5 million people:rolleyes:

Birdnuts

5live wrote: »

After the last UK general election, didnt Baron Adams complain about the cuts to the NI budget which is being subsidised, iirc, to the tune of £10 billion a year from the 'mainland'? Now that is really sustainable for a population of 1.5 million people:rolleyes:

Did they get the same level of EU structural funds that we got over the years though??

PS: In any case its all rather academic given that its the Germans that will be calling the shots in this economy FTFF!!

reilig

A general Election Candidate spoke outside the local church after mass yesterday. He's from one of the main opposition parties. When it was put to him why we should vote for him his reply was "FF have been there long enough, its our turn now". The same questioner asked what his party will do differently if they get in and was given the answer: "well we can't be as bad as what's there already". Someone else asked "What will happen if ye are worse than FF??" and was booed by some of his supporters.
He was totally unprepared, didn't have a clue of any of his party proposals and was downright rude.

It made me think that these were not going to be good enough reasons for me to vote for this candidate.

"Its our turn"
"we can't be as bad as the others"
"I want to be Taoiseach"

All of these parties have big plans for sorting out the country's finances. How many of your local candidates have policies that will help your local area that you can actually see them following through on - Not just an empty promise???

Only the independent candidates in my area appear to have achievable promises (HAC etc.)

Would you vote for a candidate because of the party that he or she is in even if you knew that the candidate was deep down useless - would you give him or her the vote for the sake of the party???

whelan1

JUST HEARD THAT BRENDAN SMITH DIDNT BOTHER GOING TO A MAJOR EU AGRICULTURAL MEETING ON QUOTAS IN JANUARY , HE WAS THE ONLY AG MINISTER NOT THERE , JUST GOES TO SHOW WHAT A WASTE HE WAS

funny man

whelan1 wrote: »

JUST HEARD THAT BRENDAN SMITH DIDNT BOTHER GOING TO A MAJOR EU AGRICULTURAL MEETING ON QUOTAS IN JANUARY , HE WAS THE ONLY AG MINISTER NOT THERE , JUST GOES TO SHOW WHAT A WASTE HE WAS

as i hinted in a previous post the said minister did attend a funeral in his constituency on the day the the council of ministers were meeting, it clearly shows that some people are just interested in staying in the job.

vincenzolorenzo

reilig wrote: »

Would you vote for a candidate because of the party that he or she is in even if you knew that the candidate was deep down useless - would you give him or her the vote for the sake of the party???

This is the dilemma I'm facing too. Looking at national policy i'm siding with FG but our local FG man has been there donkey's years and i've never once heard of a single thing he's brought to our area. Our local FF and Lab TD's are actually very good for us, so who to vote for? Decisions, decisions