Why the 31st Dáil needs Fianna Fáil

Oasis_Dublin

gambiaman wrote: »

This country does not need Fianna Fail - they do not have an ideology, their sole purpose is the attainment and retention of power for powers sake, for the patronage that gives which in turn embeds them further into Irish society.

Their record cannot be airbrushed from history with some fuzzy notion that the country needs them of all people, to keep the next government to account.

+ 1

Alanna!

I was just talking to someone who said that they would be voting Fianna Fail as they "are the only people with a plan" and I'm about to explode with rage so reading this post was probably not a good idea.;) I think that the main issue is that while a good oppposition is important to highlight problems with proposals being raised, surely we want the best people to be in power. I have not decided which way I will vote but I never have voted for FF and I never will. It is true to say that power does corrupt and they have been in power for a long time but they are appalling. Micheal Martin was acting last night like his party hadn't caused the problems that this country faces. There was no regulation for where houses were built or how they were built. They are cutting basic services that don't cost that much like the carers allowance or the wig allowance for cancer patients which are cruel or will cost more money in the long run. Instead of bringing a few extra taxi licences they made it free for everyone thus creating other problems.It just goes on and on. The economic crisis aside they should have sorted this country out when we had the money and they failed to do so. I hope they do get annihilated but it doesn't really matter as unlike the thousands of people who lost their jobs recently, most of FF will be able to go back to their teacher jobs that have been held for them.

stonehallworker

Laminations wrote: »

They are not very good points, they are incorrect.

Gilmore's wife never attended the Galway tent. Gilmore's wife didn't hoarde the property. Gilmore's wife profitted from market conditions, she (or he) did not create those market conditions

Spending the same or more does not equal the same results - thats why it is called targeted spending. If you don't believe it, then pay 5 quid for a child to paint your walls. Now pay the same or more for a professional painter and you get very different results. According to your logic spending more would automatically equal a worse result. Also you both are obviously unfamiliar with Brutons budget speeches (2005-2008) where he highlighted many problems that FF let get out of hand.

It is untrue that FG have not given details on how the 'Restructed Health System' would be funded, you both have just not bothered to listen. They have broad ideas with some decent detail, but to expect them to have every detail worked out is a tad unrealistic.

I have not stated any where that She attended any FF functions tented or otherwise.So therefore my fact regading this is correct

They have not stated how they are going to FUND the restructuring of the Health system.
I know that they are not going to increase INCOME TAX. So where is the money for this going to come from
VAT ?? Property Tax?? If I know I can then make an informed decision on how to vote

the_syco

Why the Dail need FF: when they were in power, there was no opposition. They got the 2nd term nice and easily. So whomever gets in, hopefully FF becomes a decent opposition party, that attacks the party in power.

English parliment: one side speaks, the other side attacks.

Dail: one side speaks. for hours. no-one bar a few of their mates, and someone else who wants to speak seems to be there.

And that's when they weren't on holidays...

Bambi wrote: »

It wasn't just fianna fail who bankrupted this country, it was the banks, the accountancy firms, the developers and all the other people-who-know-best that are supposed to be "fundamentally sound" on economic matters.

It was the complete lack of any financial regulation. Look at Canada and how the financial system over there didn't get hit as hard as us, due to their financial regulation.

=-=

Laminations wrote: »

Gilmore's wife didn't hoarde the property. Gilmore's wife profitted from market conditions, she (or he) did not create those market conditions

IIRC, she inherited from her late mum. The school then asked how much she wanted for the land, she gave them a price, and she was paid.

Laminations wrote: »

They have broad ideas with some decent detail, but to expect them to have every detail worked out is a tad unrealistic.

Indeed. It's not as if they ever plan to ever put it into practise, is it. Oh, wait :pac:

hoorsmelt wrote: »

The ULA and SF will be far more competent as they at least recognise the reality

Which one? The one where they default, burn the bridges, and come back in a few years expecting the lenders to throw money at them? That reality? I thought they were against the use of mind-bending drugs?

scr123

Its quite possible the biggest political problem this country faces is not only FF coming back with a low number of seats but that FF will go all pc and in future deprive the country of the type of unsavoury people who actually develop the economy. Theres a real world out there where idealism has no place. When I say unsavoury people I do not mean criminals but those who operate on the edge by taking risks that pain in the neck left and right wingers have no nerve or ability for

problemchimp

K_user wrote: »

But thats not what people want to hear, its easier to blame the government.

The biggest factor that prevents change, and cost saving, in the Health Board are the Unions.

That seems to be the FF/Harney line for so long, blame someone else. Unions, pharmecutical companies, doctors etc... At the end of the day the Government were in charge and the blame for such a rubbish health service lies with them. M.M. wants a proper/free health service yet his government allowed the doctors to run their private business on the public wards. And as mentioned by a previous poster introduced charges for everything. Harney forced a situation on people whereby if you don't have health insurance, you suffer. In the meantime, V.H.I. ride us up the hole. It's so easy to blame everyone else and walk away with a massive payoff like Drumm and Harney did.

greendom

scr123 wrote: »

Its quite possible the biggest political problem this country faces is not only FF coming back with a low number of seats but that FF will go all pc and in future deprive the country of the type of unsavoury people who actually develop the economy. Theres a real world out there where idealism has no place. When I say unsavoury people I do not mean criminals but those who operate on the edge by taking risks that pain in the neck left and right wingers have no nerve or ability for

Would these unsavoury people be the ones who were riding high during the Celtic Tiger ? Yes we certainly need to give more power to their elbow :rolleyes:

DeVore

Asking FF to scrutinise our future economic policies is like asking Monica Lewinsky to chaperone your sister on her first date.

DeV.

jmayo

Permabear wrote: »

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Jeeze what has happened to you ?
First the name change and now this. :eek:

ff do not deserve to be back in any shape apart from as a minority party.
They have for too long held this country back or led it to the brink of destruction.
Of course this time they have succeeded.

It will be the same members basically as the ones that condoned all the cra* that has been perpetrated over the last 14 years.

The sooner the Irish people show politicans that their incompetence, wastage, arroagance and unethical behaviour will not be tolerated, the sooner we will have better politicans.
If o'dea gets to saunder back into the Dáil, what does that say to others ?
It was the same with lowry and flynn.

If there is a vacuum sooner or later someone will fill it.
Most people have already copped on that the policies of the left are bogus and probably a new possible centre right party will evolve.
We nearly had something coming out for this election with the likes of McWilliams, Somerville, Ross, etc.
As it is we have the Blaneys, etc and their vision.

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

A strong opposition is vital in a democracy, whomever they may be.

But how good is when they are morally corrupt, incompetent and disasterous to the good of the state and it's people.

scr123 wrote: »

Its quite possible the biggest political problem this country faces is not only FF coming back with a low number of seats but that FF will go all pc and in future deprive the country of the type of unsavoury people who actually develop the economy. Theres a real world out there where idealism has no place. When I say unsavoury people I do not mean criminals but those who operate on the edge by taking risks that pain in the neck left and right wingers have no nerve or ability for

This has to be post of the day. :rolleyes:

It is easy to take risks with other people's money sunshine.
And even better when one gets rewarded no matter what the outcome.

DeVore wrote: »

Asking FF to scrutinise our future economic policies is like asking Monica Lewinsky to chaperone your sister on her first date.

DeV.

Just don't offer any cigars.

nesf

DeVore wrote: »

Asking FF to scrutinise our future economic policies is like asking Monica Lewinsky to chaperone your sister on her first date.

DeV.

And asking the ULA/Sinn Fein to do so is like asking Bill Clinton to do it.

It's not that FF are good chaperones, it's the the other options are even worse (if you're of an economic right persuasion).

DeVore

in the last 10 years I have struggled IN SPITE OF OUR SYSTEM to generate jobs and successful economic ventures.


Apparently I am "unsavoury".


:rolleyes:

DeV.

nesf

DeVore wrote: »

in the last 10 years I have struggled IN SPITE OF OUR SYSTEM to generate jobs and successful economic ventures.


Apparently I am "unsavoury".


:rolleyes:

DeV.

And SF/ULA are pro business or are going to form a strong Opposition representing the rights of small business owners?

Permabear

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InReality

OP
A) Your basic mistake is thinking that the opposition has any real power in the Irish Political System. It doesn't.

Strongly left wing parties & polices in this state will never have real affect on what is done. Thats a myth - which the sunday independent's so called political reporters love to repeat.
Their day is over in almost all western democracies.

How specifically do you expect FF to to keep FG/Lab in check ?

InReality

scr123 wrote: »

Its quite possible the biggest political problem this country faces is not only FF coming back with a low number of seats but that FF will go all pc and in future deprive the country of the type of unsavoury people who actually develop the economy. Theres a real world out there where idealism has no place. When I say unsavoury people I do not mean criminals but those who operate on the edge by taking risks that pain in the neck left and right wingers have no nerve or ability for

Who would be an example of this ?

Tarobot

I don't agree with the assertion that the Greens have never been strong on economic policy. Everyone is jumping on the green economy bandwagon and the OECD acknowledges that property and consumption-based taxes are the least harmful taxes for an economy.

Last year, SEAI supported more jobs than the IDA. We have to look to our strategic advantages such as renewables, agriculture and ICT.

Ardennes1944

the only way i could see a use for Fianna Fail in the Dail is so the elected party/parties could be reminded of how not to run a country

Permabear

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Sir Oxman

nesf wrote: »

And asking the ULA/Sinn Fein to do so is like asking Bill Clinton to do it.

It's not that FF are good chaperones, it's the the other options are even worse (if you're of an economic right persuasion).

Well, naturally.

Opposition is surely just that - an opposite point of view, not solely for the sake of electoral gain but an actual opposition.
Fianna Fail will use whatever numbers they have after the 25th to oppose for opposing sake. That's what they do.
They are a reckless, hugely populist and wholly clientelist version of FG.

For instance, the SF and ULA proposition that this debt cannot be paid back is a valid opposite point of view currently to the other three main parties.
They aren't blathering on about a drop of a percentage point being somehow the cure to all our ills, they are categorically saying whether in 6 months or 12 months or two years this country will default.
Labour have diffrences with FG also in various fields, actual opposite points of view.

That is an opposition, fundamentally based on ideological grounds - not tribal which is what FF would provide.

The airbrushing of what that party have done to this country which is implied by saying people should return them back in numbers, seemingly based on a tv appearance by a guy who has convinced the OP that he and his party are something which they clearly are not, is bizarre.

Sir Oxman

InReality wrote: »

OP
A) Your basic mistake is thinking that the opposition has any real power in the Irish Political System. It doesn't.

Strongly left wing parties & polices in this state will never have real affect on what is done. Thats a myth - which the sunday independent's so called political reporters love to repeat.
Their day is over in almost all western democracies.

How specifically do you expect FF to to keep FG/Lab in check ?

I'd like to know that as well.

whatstherush

gambiaman wrote: »

hugely populist

Does passing 4 austerity budgets in a row qualify as hugely populist

Snakeblood

Permabear wrote: »

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But what makes you think intelligence, rationality and cog. cog. cog. will come from Fianna Fail? Fianna Fail have been bad not just in this government but in most of them since they've started being in power. They're a poison tree and they give poison fruit. They'll say something populist in opposition, then get back in power, and start stealing and lying again, because that's what they do.

nesf

gambiaman wrote: »

Well, naturally.

Opposition is surely just that - an opposite point of view, not solely for the sake of electoral gain but an actual opposition.

Sweet mother of God no. Opposition is not merely an opposite point of view but an argument on how to do things differently. There are many ways to skin a cat as has been shown by the differences between FG in Opposition and SF in Opposition over the past decade. Both sides need to be represented here, just having one will make for a worse Dáil. I as a right winger would hate to see a purely right Opposition to a Government. I may disagree fairly fundamentally with SF on most issues but it's important that their voice is heard in the Dáil.

Snakeblood

whatstherush wrote: »

Does passing 4 austerity budgets in a row qualify as hugely populist

They did that when their arm was forced by the IMF and the bank collapse. Their hugely populist policies led to that.

Sir Oxman

whatstherush wrote: »

Does passing 4 austerity budgets in a row qualify as hugely populist

I'd suggest and others would too, FF and the Greens wasted 3 of those budgets and they were in the endgame then.

2000-2007, populist, hell yeah.
Only one thing on their collective mindset - stay in power, no matter what.

whatstherush

gambiaman wrote: »

Only one thing on their collective mindset - stay in power, no matter what.

Why pass austerity budgets if that was the case?

Snakeblood

whatstherush wrote: »

Why pass austerity budgets if that was the case?

Because there'd be no country left and they'd be forever known as the party that destroyed Ireland utterly as a sovereign nation if they didn't do the austerity budgets, that *still* didn't manage to go far enough.

myrak

Permabear wrote: »

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FF was very dependable indeed...they defended indefensible actions, policies, leaders, cronies and ill advised decisions right to the bitter end.
Our bitter end of course,not theirs.

Sir Oxman

nesf wrote: »

Sweet mother of God no. Opposition is not merely an opposite point of view but an argument on how to do things differently. There are many ways to skin a cat as has been shown by the differences between FG in Opposition and SF in Opposition over the past decade. Both sides need to be represented here, just having one will make for a worse Dáil. I as a right winger would hate to see a purely right Opposition to a Government. I may disagree fairly fundamentally with SF on most issues but it's important that their voice is heard in the Dáil.

Fundamentally an opposite point of view, of course there are different approaches to achieving the same objective.
FF's destruction, if it comes either now or by the next election, will help realign Irish politics which IMO can only be a good thing.
I don't envisage future Dail's full of right-wingers and left-wingers and nothing in between.

Sir Oxman

whatstherush wrote: »

Why pass austerity budgets if that was the case?

Endgame. As we all thought it was back then.

invinciblePRSTV

Ah yes another reds under the bed whinge, perhaps a more appropriate thread title would be 'why this Libertarian hates the Left'. Given the extremist nature of the OPs political affiliation - to those not in the know Libertarians are as bonkers and ideologically bankrupt as any paper selling Trotskyist - i'm surprised people are taking this thread seriously.

Permabear wrote: »

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Shur let's take a look at the most likely FFers that will be returned for FF and will play a role in this 'effective' opposition in the 31st Dail.

Martin
O'Dea
Cowen (Barry)
Hanafin
O'Rourke
O'Cuiv
O'Donoghue
Smith
Coughlan
The 2 Lenihans
Collins

Yes this lot have proved time and time again that they're able to competently manage the affairs of of this state.

Permabear wrote: »

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Mmm great logic, RBB was poor on a TV show, so people should go and vote FF instead? really? that's all you got? FF and Green politicians have been ripped apart by TV presenters, opposition politicians and celebrity economists since the crisis broke, yet you still advocate supporting them, or at least FF. Anyone but those nasty reds eh?

Permabear wrote: »

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Thus we see the true meaning of your questionable ideological leanings coming to the fore here. In the Libertarian view of the world, the only 'effective, rational & cogent' opposition is an opposition that bows at the feet at the mighty markets. Newsflash for ya, FF don't care about the markets anymore then they care about Bertie Socialism. They will say whatever it will take to get elected and back into government, don't kid yourself otherwise that they won't use and propose leftist rhetoric and policies when required.

Permabear wrote: »

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Interesting, on the one hand you argue that most Irish people oppose corruption & cronyism, yet you still advocate support for the 2 parties who are, to use the parlance, 'up to their necks in it' and have been since their foundation. Your ideological blindspot and foaming at the mouth red scaring means you willingly continue to support and endorse the cronyism and corruption you give out about. Pathetic really.

Permabear wrote: »

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Lol, talk about hyperbole. Do us a favour love, drop the imported Yank rhetoric, this is Ireland not anywhere USA.

Permabear

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nesf

gambiaman wrote: »

Fundamentally an opposite point of view, of course there are different approaches to achieving the same objective.
FF's destruction, if it comes either now or by the next election, will help realign Irish politics which IMO can only be a good thing.
I don't envisage future Dail's full of right-wingers and left-wingers and nothing in between.

What I'd like to see is for a third force to arise on the right to fill the void left after the PDs. Right now all we got is FG/FF and that is deeply unsatisfactory for me. Any port in a storm though, and right now my only option for a right opposition is FF. I don't like this and I don't want this to be the case but it's what I'm stuck with. That I think is the core issue for those of us on the right who aren't dyed in the wool FGers or FFers.

nesf

invinciblePRSTV wrote: »

Ah yes another reds under the bed whinge, perhaps a more appropriate thread title would be 'why this Libertarian hates the Left'. Given the extremist nature of the OPs political affiliation - to those not in the know Libertarians are as bonkers and ideologically bankrupt as any paper selling Trotskyist - i'm surprised people are taking this thread seriously.

Just because someone is a Libertarian or a Trotskyist doesn't mean they can't have a point sometimes. Dismissing something out of hand because it came from a person with a certain political view is more ideologically bankrupt than any political position you might care to hold.

We dont need Fianna Fail we need new parties!!

DeVore

What we NEED is a truely free press. Badly lacking in this country.

We have a freedom of information act which is almost Orwellian in a "Ministry of Truth" way that it is in fact extremely curtailing of what information is released to journalists and then the defamation laws take care of the rest. Hence we end up with things like the Indo's "Living" section, god help us.

We need a free press but no one wants to champion that cause.

DeV.

Permabear

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darragh16

Deleted User wrote: »

We dont need Fianna Fail we need new parties!!

The best we'll get is a reform of govt. program from each of the 3 main parties I'm afraid.

20Cent

From what Devore said a free press for a start. But also some radical reform of the whole system to make it more transparent and accountable, remove the cronyism and the obsession with local politics. TDs should be legislating not getting football pitches or fixing potholes. Councils can do that stuff.
As for FF in the opposition not thanks they've done enough damage. The ULA will only have a handful of TDs if they are very lucky, no harm having some of those voices in the Dail. The scarmongering reds under the bed nonsense shouldn't make anyone vote FF.

bhovaspack

DeVore wrote: »

What we NEED is a truely free press. Badly lacking in this country.

We have a freedom of information act which is almost Orwellian in a "Ministry of Truth" way that it is in fact extremely curtailing of what information is released to journalists and then the defamation laws take care of the rest. Hence we end up with things like the Indo's "Living" section, god help us.

We need a free press but no one wants to champion that cause.

DeV.

I believe this too. I wish it were on the agenda but it remains a fairly neglected topic.

What annoys me most is the lack of coverage of and research into media bias in this country - inevitable in a small country with a limited pool of media jobs, since it is never a good career move to cover and investigate the failings of your future colleagues.

Bucklesman

DeVore wrote: »

What we NEED is a truely free press. Badly lacking in this country.

"There are three estates in Parliament but in the reporters’ gallery yonder, there sits a fourth estate, more important far than they all."

--Edmund Burke

The best check on the political system is something completely independent of it; the media, not another group of politicians trying to advance their own agenda. Exactly what FF will do if they lead the next opposition.

nesf

DeVore wrote: »

What we NEED is a truely free press. Badly lacking in this country.

We have a freedom of information act which is almost Orwellian in a "Ministry of Truth" way that it is in fact extremely curtailing of what information is released to journalists and then the defamation laws take care of the rest. Hence we end up with things like the Indo's "Living" section, god help us.

We need a free press but no one wants to champion that cause.

DeV.

Yeah but conversely a too loose FoI act brings many problems with nuisance requests being used to screw around with State groups.

That said, yeah I agree, I pay extremely little attention to Irish media because of the generally poor quality of it (and especially the poor quality of analysis).

ChippingSodbury

20Cent wrote: »

From what Devore said a free press for a start. But also some radical reform of the whole system to make it more transparent and accountable, remove the cronyism and the obsession with local politics. TDs should be legislating not getting football pitches or fixing potholes. Councils can do that stuff.As for FF in the opposition not thanks they've done enough damage. The ULA will only have a handful of TDs if they are very lucky, no harm having some of those voices in the Dail. The scarmongering reds under the bed nonsense shouldn't make anyone vote FF.

I was stopped at the Carrigaline roundabout today and was looking at the posters as I don't live in Cork. One of Simon Coveney's posters stood out (he has 2 types I think). It said "Coveney For Carrigaline: Vote Local". What does this tell us about Mr. Coveney and what he will on National decisions? I'm not specifically picking on Coveney because I think all of them are the same and the sooner the problem of looking after the locals ahead of taking important, unpopular decision for the national good is solved, we will always have a country governed by parish pump politics and parish pump politicians. Maybe we should have only 10 or 12 TDs elected for the whole country on an elected once, can't run again basis and they all get into the Cabinet and a direct vote for Taoiseach, with possibly a Seanad to oversee/ critique their work? Maybe then we wouldn't be arguing about an ineffectual FF or otherwise led ineffectual opposition?

Permabear

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raymon

Permabear wrote: »

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Come on - FF's economic policies have bankrupted our country . FF have no economic or financial intelligence . They are not coherent and are untrustworthy and consistently dishonest .

I agree that other parties like SF and ULA have no clue either , but dishonesty should not be the lesser evil .

johnnyskeleton

Permabear wrote: »

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Your premise is misconceived. If FF are annihilated, you are assuming that there will be no chance in the support for FG and Labour, and that all FF's support will go to the randomers. Realistically, FF will lose most seats to FG and Labour, and the remainder of FF TDs will slink into those two parties for the most part. The likely scenario is a left right split in the dail along the lines of FG/right wing independents on one side of the house, Labour/Green/left wing indepdents on the other side, whackos somewhere in the middle.

Permabear wrote: »

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Are you so deuldedly against social democrats that you would rather the people who sold the country out to protect some very wealthy/debt ridden special interest groups? And your justification is that you think he is intelligent and clear, while everyone else is a populist ranter whose alternatives come from walt disney.

Permabear wrote: »

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Speak for yourself. I for my part will vote for honesty in politics and away from the corruption of FF and FG. If honesty in your eyes is a lack of reality, I don't want to live in your world of grubby corrupt reality where the gombeen man is king.

Permabear

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Permabear

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SymphonyX

I got this in my email today. Taught it was a bit funny. They always want more money... This country is a joke.

K-9

Permabear wrote: »

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I think you have supported a default before, well on bank debt anyway, at least you are honest on what it would mean.

The Public Service pay bill would need to be cut by a third and Welfare probably by half due to the big increase in Unemployment. We'd need higher taxes but taxing the rich wouldn't cut it, we'd have to adopt tax rates probably nearer Nordic rates.

It is doable, but not how SF/ULA portray it.