Ban on Fox Hunting

gozunda

Yes

ISDW wrote: »

What? If you had read my posts, you would see that I did go to hunts when I was younger, so I have seen for myself. You really should go into politics, if you're not already, you are a master at not answering questions and deflecting onto other issues, I bow to your talents:D

Well good on you ISDW. So you then know what the role of the mounted hunter is - so why ask me then Stirring the pot maybe? I could only aspire to be a Master some day - that is of course a Master of the Hunt

ISDW

gozunda wrote: »

Well good on you ISDW. So you then know what the role of the mounted hunter is - so why ask me then Stirring the pot maybe? I could only aspire to be a Master some day - that is of course a Master of the Hunt

Yes I have seen them, and I don't understand why they are there, the only reason I can see is to enjoy watching an animal be killed, they are there for the sport, so therefore are completely unnecessary, meaning the whole thing is unnecessary surely?

What do you mean stirring the pot? This is a discussion, I'm trying to have a discussion, but as you keep deflecting things, and refusing to give straight answers its a bit of a waste of time.

gozunda

Yes

ISDW wrote: »

Yes I have seen them, and I don't understand why they are there, the only reason I can see is to enjoy watching an animal be killed, they are there for the sport, so therefore are completely unnecessary, meaning the whole thing is unnecessary surely?

What do you mean stirring the pot? This is a discussion, I'm trying to have a discussion, but as you keep deflecting things, and refusing to give straight answers its a bit of a waste of time.

ISDW - I can only answer truthfully based on my personal knowledge and experience. OK I reread your post about you hunting - you said "I did go to hunts when I was younger"...I see the problem - so you didn't hunt then? Is thats why you asked me "what was the audience for?" If you had hunted then you would understand the purpose of the mounted fox hunter. Do as I suggest and go hire a horse for the day to gain a better understanding.

ISDW

gozunda wrote: »

ISDW - I can only answer truthfully based on my personal knowledge and experience. OK I reread your post about you hunting - you said "I did go to hunts when I was younger"...I see the problem - so you didn't hunt then? Is thats why you asked me "what was the audience for?" If you had hunted then you would unsterstand the purpose of the mounted fox hunter. Do as I suggest and go hire a horse for the day to gain a better understanding.

I can't ride that well, and can't afford to hire a horse, so no way am I going to do that, why can't you just explain?

Discodog

gozunda wrote: »

Great to get a chance to present the facts btw...

According to my dictionary a fact is "A thing that is indisputably the case"
Many here dispute your so called facts - you are beginning to sound like one of those ads for cleaning products. It used to be a practice here that if you present "facts" that you back them up with evidence.

gozunda wrote: »

hunts hunt to cull sick, old and "problematic foxes" such as ones preying on livestock. This is the form of control that is refered to.

Oh so only "problematic" foxes prey on livestock. Glad you at least acknowledge that the majority of foxes do not kill livestock.

gozunda wrote: »

The average is 15-30 minutes and most foxes do get away. Those that get caught get caught quickly. They die quickly and they dont crawl away to suffer a lingering death

So you believe that 30 minutes of terror & it can be far longer, I have watched many hunts, is justified by the quick kill. You also seem to believe that the central nervous system & ability to feel fear is different in a domestic animal.

gozunda wrote: »

And thats ok too

What trespassing & damaging other peoples land !.

gozunda wrote: »

Foxes will engage in surplus killing so not just killing of necessity. Hunters may have a range of reasons. The purpose of hunting does not change.

The biggest lie so far !. Plenty of studies have debunked this for example read the Complete Fox by Les Stocker.

So Mr Fox kills all the hens. If nothing stops him he will return later to collect the rest because he doesn't know when the next meal will come. Other predators do the same thing. The fox kills purely to eat. We kill foxes for enjoyment.

Discodog

kildare.17hmr wrote: »

Dogs are not exactly trained to hunt hunting breads will do it instinctivly for the most part all yopu are doing is honing their skills.

Yep & by "honing" their skills you can make them harder to rehome. I own two ex coursing sighthounds one of which, after a lot of effort, will no longer chase.

kildare.17hmr wrote: »

I dont think you have tried to look into hunting with an open mind, you seem to have an agenda and your opinion seems to eb foremd from an anti point of view and i dont think you have a clue what your talking about. you make it sound like there is a big conspiricy going on Gozunda said his local hunt allows people access to see what its all about why not get the details off him, make an appointment and go with an open mind and see for yourself?? Again because you have an agenda i doubt you will.

My very open mind had no problem in deciding that chasing & terrorising an animal before killing it is wrong. Your mind is just as closed - you shoot !. What is the point of visiting a kennel by appointment ?. That just gives the hunt the opportunity to hide anything unsavoury. If you have nothing to hide you would welcome viewing at any time.

gozunda

Yes

Discodog wrote: »

According to my dictionary a fact is "A thing that is indisputably the case"
Many here dispute your so called facts - you are beginning to sound like one of those ads for cleaning products. It used to be a practice here that if you present "facts" that you back them up with evidence.

Really?

gozunda wrote:

Foxes will engage in surplus killing so not just killing of necessity. Hunters may have a range of reasons. The purpose of hunting does not change.

Discodog wrote:

..The biggest lie so far !. Plenty of studies have debunked this for example read the Complete Fox by Les Stocker.

Well I am informed by no less an authority than the Duchas (the heritage Service) in their recent publication "Exploring Irish Mammals"

(Foxes will) ...indulge in suplus killing, particularly if they gain acees to hen houses, pheasant rearing-pens or colonies of ground nesting birds...foxes may also kill substantial numbers of newly released pen-reared gamebirds.

Discodog wrote:

So Mr Fox kills all the hens. If nothing stops him he will return later to collect the rest because he doesn't know when the next meal will come. Other predators do the same thing. The fox kills purely to eat. We kill foxes for enjoyment.

So Mr Fox should not be stopped in killing hens? Interesting train of thought btw. I could do with some money - do you think the Bank will be happy if I just take some as I need it to pay for my groceries.

You really are quite funny Discodog....


ps I couldn't quite make out some of your quotes so I gave answers those that I could.

Discodog

gozunda wrote: »

Yes they may have to make an appointment but that is part of health and safety regulations.

Gosh good old health & safety - I don't believe you.
You need an appointment so that they can ensure that you don't see anything that they don't want you to see.

gozunda wrote: »

Breeds include retrievers, lurchers, terriers etc. These are all working dogs bred to do a specific job. You want to get rid of all of them?

What I would like to know is how many Backyard hoarders (aka rescue centres) that take in dogs that are then used for nefarious practices around the country including illegal hunting such as dog fighting? How are these places regulated. How many animals are kept? Do they get proper vetinary care including being being pts when required? This is especially important where fighting breeds are concerned. There is currently no reegulation whatsover of these establishments.

No only the owners who abuse them. These breeds are not job specific. A retriever that is trained to retrieve will not be a problem as a pet. A foxhound that has never been kept in a domestic setting will be. Rescues are regulated far more than Hunts who regulate themselves. Most rescues get a grant & are carefully vetted as part of the process. They are also subject to anti cruelty legislation unlike Hunts. Even more they are subject to & rely upon the goodwill of the public.

There is currently no regulation of Hunt kennels.

Given that rescues are dedicated to helping animals, whereas you kill them for fun, it seems well below the belt to criticise rescues.

EGAR

gozunda wrote: »

"Oh dear" The photograph was not exactly a full profile was it :rolleyes: I could tell it was not a Foxhound anyway...please dont try to be rude and abusive in an otherwise interesting discussion.

I dont know what country your talking about but Foxhunting hunts here use pure bred foxhounds not foxhound x beagles crosses etc. If it is a "special" then it has nothing to do with proper foxhunting. Question: Why did you steal his hound if you knew it belonged to the local guy? If the hound had an accident then the normal thing would be to inform the owner.

Young foxhounds are run as a couple with an older hound during training. Its a bit like putting a dog on a lead except the one with the lead is the older hound not a human. The "lead" only stays on for training. The young hound learns by following the lead of the older hound....if anything else is going on then its because your "local guy" is obviously special.

Ahhh, no, who is rude now and is accusing me of stealing? The owner was informed and surrendered the dog to me as he couldn't be ar*ed with a big vet bill. The *lead* is a chain and these dogs DO get lost and stuck on bushes until someone finds them which usually isn't the owner and then I get a call - get it?

gozunda

Yes

Discodog wrote: »

Gosh good old health & safety - I don't believe you.

Funny that! So why ask me the question?

Discodog wrote: »

Given that rescues are dedicated to helping animals, whereas you kill them for fun, it seems well below the belt to criticise rescues.

Not criticising but you cant demand regulation for hunt kennels and not have it for backyard "Rescue Centres".

Btw The "fun" bit is your opinion only...

Who knows what half of these backyard operations are really up to....

EGAR

gozunda wrote: »

Who knows what half of these backyard operations are really up to....

Deflection on your part, this thread is about fox hunting, perhaps you start a new thread if you have concerns about *backyard operations*?

gozunda

Yes

EGAR wrote: »

Deflection on your part, this thread is about fox hunting, perhaps you start a new thread if you have concerns about *backyard operations*?

Well it was ISDW and others(!) that decided that a discusion on regulation for places where dogs are kept was relevant....I'm afraid I only replied to the that which was posted on same....

So maybe we can get back to the original thread now :rolleyes:

ISDW

gozunda wrote: »

Well I'm afraid it must be just you then - in this area visitors to the hunt kennels are welcomed. Yes they may have to make an appointment but that is part of health and safety regulations. Same as any other working establishments. These are not petting zoos so its hardly surprising that they have a right to screen visitors.


ehhh - exactly you have answered this yourself

Thats what its called is it?

Hounds and various dog breeds are bred for hunting not just for fox hunting. Breeds include retrievers, lurchers, terriers etc. These are all working dogs bred to do a specific job. You want to get rid of all of them?

What I would like to know is how many Backyard hoarders (aka rescue centres) that take in dogs that are then used for nefarious practices around the country including illegal hunting such as dog fighting? How are these places regulated. How many animals are kept? Do they get proper vetinary care including being being pts when required? This is especially important where fighting breeds are concerned. There is currently no reegulation whatsover of these establishments. A recent League against Cruel sports report recently showed that it was"Lads with Dogs" that were involved in most of the crimal activity in relation to wildlife in the UK and not the Hunts.

No, you deflected the discussion, I answered, unlike you who never gives a straight answer

EGAR

One last comment on the *fighting dog rescue* . Well over 100 rescues including EGAR are in receipt of an annual ex gratia grant by the Department of Agri which includes a lot of paperwork and inspections by the DVO.

And Gozuna, you owe me an apology for accusing me of stealing a dog, my answer you glossed over by ignoring it.

As to hunts only with Foxhounds, what about Kerry Beagles?

gozunda

Yes

EGAR wrote: »

One last comment on the *fighting dog rescue* . Well over 100 rescues including EGAR are in receipt of an annual ex gratia grant by the Department of Agri which includes a lot of paperwork and inspections by the DVO.

So thats where my taxes are going! As stated things can be made to look nice - just like when the cameras are there. I'm talking proper regulation.

EGAR wrote: »

And Gozuna, you owe me an apology for accusing me of stealing a dog, my answer you glossed over by ignoring it.

Its gozunda btw not Gozuna! Glad your clarified that. I'll take your word for it.

EGAR wrote: »

As to hunts only with Foxhounds, what about Kerry Beagles?

I only know about Foxhounds
Foxhound = Fox
So I looked them up for your information...
Ref the IKC - Kerry Beagles - tradional quarry was the hare.

EGAR

You still owe me an apology, whether you take my word for it or not - you accused me of stealing a dog.

What do you really know about fox hunting? The Scarteen Hounds (aka Black and Tans) for example are solely Kerry Beagles!

So thats where my taxes are going!

And mine .

EGAR

gozunda wrote: »

Its gozunda btw not Gozuna!

My apologies, Gozunda then as in chamber pot.

gozunda

Yes

EGAR wrote: »

You still owe me an apology, whether you take my word for it or not - you accused me of stealing a dog.

This was an honest opinon based on what was stated in your original post. I have already said I will take your word for it. So Apologies. I am sure you are mature enough to accept this.

EGAR wrote: »

What do you really know about fox hunting? The Scarteen Hounds (aka Black and Tans) for example are solely Kerry Beagles!

Oh deary deary me....you do keep trying! The Scarteen Hounds are classified as Fox Hounds and are affiliated to the Irish Master of Foxhounds Association.

Irish Beagle packs are affiliated to the Irish Master of Beagles Association. Are you saying that the Irish Kennel Club are wrong?

gozunda

Yes

EGAR wrote: »

My apologies, Gozunda then as in chamber pot.

Yes glad you got that. Very useful when dealing with ......:D

Discodog

gozunda wrote: »

Well I am informed by no less an authority than the Duchas (the heritage Service) in their recent publication "Exploring Irish Mammals"

Link or we don't believe you.

gozunda wrote: »

You really are quite funny Discodog....
ps I couldn't quite make out some of your quotes so I gave answers those that I could.

Well you may see killing as funny - I don't

You never answer questions so much so that it has become pointless asking them. Some of your "control" answers are just repeated.

Now I have asked you how many Hounds are killed each year several times. I didn't ask because I don't know the answer but to see if you did. So how about you do a search or make a few calls & answer a question for once.

If you genuinely the only one here who cannot understand my questions then tell me which ones & I will repost/rephrase them.

Discodog

gozunda wrote: »

Yes glad you got that. Very useful when dealing with ......:D

& often full of .........!

Discodog

gozunda wrote: »

So thats where my taxes are going!

Do you object to a minuscule proportion of your tax going towards helping the tens of thousand of unwanted Irish dogs or do you think that they should all be killed like your Foxes & unwanted Hounds ?.

Sorry I just asked a question - feel free not to answer !.

EGAR

gozunda wrote: »

Oh deary deary me....you do keep trying! The Scarteen Hounds are classified as Fox Hounds and are affiliated to the Irish Master of Foxhounds Association.

Irish Beagle packs are affiliated to the Irish Master of Beagles Association. Are you saying that the Irish Kennel Club are wrong?

Lolol, and I quote:

Most famous amongst these packs is probably the Scarteen Hounds of Tipperary/Limerick. Known as "the Black and Tans", this pack comprises 23-inch pure-bred Kerry Beagles.

Source: http://www.irishfoxhunting.ie/legislation2.htm

La di da... I hope you are mature enough to see your mistake there .

round tower huntsman

Yes

kerry beagles are harrriers. they hunt hare and fox. most foot packs in ireland hunt irish harriers or kerry beagles.

gozunda

Yes

EGAR wrote: »

Lolol, and I quote:

Source: http://www.irishfoxhunting.ie/legislation2.htm

La di da... I hope you are mature enough to see your mistake there .

EGAR you are so deperate to grasp at straws and end up giving facts on things you know nothing about.

Please do try quoting in context in future. Btw the link given is for the
Irish Masters of FOXHOUNDS Association IMFHA

Here it is "in context"....

.... these hunts developed into the county packs that exist today and now there are few counties which do not have a pack of foxhounds affiliated to the I.M.F.H.A. Collectively these hunts are the largest single employer amongst the associations which represent hunting with hounds. Most famous amongst these packs is probably the Scarteen Hounds of Tipperary/Limerick. Known as "the Black and Tans", this pack comprises 23-inch pure-bred Kerry Beagles. They are unique and have been in the possession of the Ryan family for over 300 years.

I think you are mixing up hound breed, classification according to use and hound affiliation.

As stated by the Irish Kennel Club Beagles are used traditionaly used for ground hunting of hares.

If you are finished derailing the thread maybe the original proposition can be dicussed....

gozunda

Yes

Discodog wrote: »

Link or we don't believe you.

Jeez Discodog - Why ask anyone anything if you never believe anything?

The link is called a BOOK! Try your local library. You dont even believe the Heritage Service!

Discodog wrote: »

Well you may see killing as funny - I don't!

I was laughing at your wonderful logic that foxes should be free to kill whatever they want

Though of course right you are absolutly right! When out hunting I am so doubled up with laughter whilst galloping after the fox that I regularly fall off. Unfortuantely everyone else is laughing so much they are in the same prediciment. Get real fcs

Discodog wrote: »

You never answer questions so much so that it has become pointless asking them. Some of your "control" answers are just repeated.

The facts dont change so if I have to repeat something it is because the same questions kept being asked

Discodog wrote: »

Now I have asked you how many Hounds are killed each year several times. I didn't ask because I don't know the answer but to see if you did. So how about you do a search or make a few calls & answer a question for once..

As stated I dont work in a Hunt Kennels. Try asking someone that does or better still YOU "do a search or make a few calls"

Discodog wrote: »

If you genuinely the only one here who cannot understand my questions then tell me which ones & I will repost/rephrase them.

Dear Discodog with reference the fisrt point you made above where you state and I quote "we don't believe you" (whos "we" btw?) what is the point?

You are so busy trying to find a loose thread you end up tying yourself in knots.

gozunda

Yes

Discodog wrote: »

Do you object to a minuscule proportion of your tax going towards helping the tens of thousand of unwanted Irish dogs or do you think that they should all be killed like your Foxes & unwanted Hounds ?.

Sorry I just asked a question - feel free not to answer !.

Are you so short sighted that you fail to grasp the obvious....
I strongly object to any monies going to backyard "Rescue Centres" that are unregulated. Especially where they do not produce annual accounts for public scrutiny. Who knows what have of these places are really up to...

Discodog

gozunda wrote: »

You dont even believe the Heriage Service!

Well they are in effect the government & they give millions of our hard earned to the ICC/IGB - hardly impartial.

gozunda wrote: »

I was laughing at your wonderful logic that foxes should be free to kill whatever they want

Well unlike you they do not know any better & after all, unlike you, they are killing to survive. One minute you seem to be stressing how natural it is for hounds to kill a fox but apparently it's wrong for a fox to kill a chicken which it can only do if the chicken's owner allows it.

gozunda wrote: »

The facts dont change so if I have to repeat something it is because the same questions kept being asked

You don't answer. You just repeat the same spiel. Look back back on this thread & the TV 3 one & give us some answers.

gozunda wrote: »

Though of course right you are absolutly right! When out hunting I am so doubled up with laughter whilst galloping after the fox that I regularly fall off. Unfortuantely everyone else is laughing so much they are in the same prediciment. Get real fcs

So you hunt for the craic, the camaraderie etc but it's not enjoyable. Try drag hunting & you might laugh more.

gozunda wrote: »

As stated I dont work in a Hunt Kennels. Try asking someone that does or better still YOU "do a search or make a few calls"

You don't read either. I have already said that I have tried many times.

gozunda wrote: »

Dear Discodog with reference the fisrt point you made above where you state and I quote "we don't believe you" (whos "we" btw?) what is the point?

You are so busy trying to find a loose thread you end up tying yourself in knots.

Gosh terms of endearment now - but I am very choosy about to whom I give my body !.

"We" are the various people here who disagree with you - in other words I am not the only one. This is not the first debate on Hunting.

The point is that you never answer questions & when you do you never provide evidence.

Oh & it's normally Gazunder - cockney slang !

Discodog

gozunda wrote: »

Are you so short sighted that you fail to grasp the obvious....
I strongly object to any monies going to backyard "Rescue Centres" that are unregulated. Especially where they do not produce annual accounts for public scrutiny. Who knows what have of these places are really up to...

Your not reading posts !!!!!!!!

Both Egar & I have explained that grants only go to bona fide rescues that are vetted.

gozunda

Yes

Ref: The Heritage Service (Duchas)

Discodog wrote: »

Well they are in effect the government & they give millions of our hard earned to the ICC/IGB - hardly impartial.

Oh well that makes perfect sense then.... Do you believe anyone except yourself?

Discodog wrote: »

Well unlike you they do not know any better & after all, unlike you, they are killing to survive. One minute you seem to be stressing how natural it is for hounds to kill a fox but apparently it's wrong for a fox to kill a chicken which it can only do if the chicken's owner allows it.

Ehhhh then *bursts out laughing* - at the logic or lack of contained in this statement....

Discodog wrote: »

You don't answer. You just repeat the same spiel. Look back back on this thread & the TV 3 one & give us some answers.

Well anytime I have given an answer or reference - all I get from you is "I/We dont believe you"! I have given answers based on my personal knowledge and experience. If you only wish to believe what you already believe thats fine, just dont keep asking the same questions...As regards contacting hunt kennels to arrange a visit -

Discodog wrote: »

You don't read either. I have already said that I have tried many times.

Well it must be you then. I persume then they already know you are anti hunt

Discodog wrote: »

"We" are the various people here who disagree with you - in other words I am not the only one. This is not the first debate on Hunting.

Discodog wrote: »

Oh & it's normally Gazunder - cockney slang !

So the royal "We" who do you honestly think you are - the bloody queen!

And it may be your cockney slang (does the Queen speak Cockney?) it is also used in Ireland and its spelt gozunda...

Discodog wrote: »

.. Both Egar & I have explained that grants only go to bona fide rescues that are vetted.

As ISDW said there is no proper regulation! And I explained that things can be made to look nice when you are getting public money - just like when the cameras are there. I'm talking proper regulation.